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Close to admitting defeat to stimless ADHD management

stimulant withdrawal adhd meds vyvanse dexedrine adderall

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#1 cat-nips

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 03:45 PM


I'm pretty much at the end of my rope and very close to calling it quits on quitting.  After nearly a year of trying different things, all with varying degrees of success, nothing was ever consistent, and I'm in way worse shape than I was when on treatment.

 

My control was my non-ADHD partner who does not have the knowledge or care to know about supplemental nootropics.  All the supplements and regimes that I've trialed worked fabulously for him, with results akin to positive reviews one reads, but did next to nothing for me.  He now has a supply that he'll probably eventually get through in a couple of years.  

 

Going back to ADHD treatment, with the focus on harm reduction and keeping tolerance in check via nmda antagonism, and finding root issues of fatigue that stimulants may both contribute to, as well as mask. 

 

Also ready to go back to possible neurotoxic and cardiotoxicity warnings, being a slave to these meds, hardly sleeping, raging mood swings, horrible withdrawal every time there's an issue with getting a refill (happens a lot) or can't see your doc that month, and constantly being questioned about abuse, questioned about whether I'm selling them or going to self-harm, being told that it's unnecessary, and that I'm evil for treating that way, sometimes by the same person who prescribed them in the first place.  What a joke.

 

No other condition that's treated functionally and managed with meds is stigmatized in the same way, but no other treatments show the same success rate for efficacy in ADHD management.  And once you start, prescribed after diagnosis and treatment and therapeutic doses, going back is very difficult (impossible for me apparently). 

 

Moving or changing docs, or insurance is also a nightmare as every time you do, you're subjected to varying degrees of BS.  So the trade off is being told by everyone what an awful druggie you are, and feeling horrible for being so dependent, but at least, still functioning way more effectively in the "normal" ways of life that society expect and forces you to have to be.  With treatment, at least I'm getting out of bed with goals every morning.  Without, I barely get past the first part of that equation.  

 

I don't care anymore.  I guess I have to deal with it, as going through all that is worth that bit of clarity that those stupid stims provide and that I can't seem to have without them.  There has to be a better way, and maybe further time would change things, but I'm still feeling like hell after a year, and so ready put an end to my misery.  This last year, was spent with nothing done or accomplished or learned and all the goals progressed on in the past, further deteriorating.  Wasted too much of life waiting for this to get better and it never does. 

 

Negatives:  Weight way up.  Goals obliterated. Cognitive function reduced.  Exercise regimes nonexistent.  Depression rampant.  Activity reduced.  Basics of life unattended.  Severe anhedonia.  General health feels worsened.  Relationships worsened.  Positive outlook gone. 

 

A year and a half ago, while medicated, I vaguely remember being at a point of saving funding and scheduling my calendar to get a fitness certification.   The idea is laughable and inconceivable now.  

 

Positives:  Sleep is better.  I don't have to deal with the hassle of staying on treatment.  

 

About ready to go on the doc run-arounds and the nonsense it takes to resume.  I can't continue to feel this way.  This is my post and marker to remind me to not ever attempt anything like this again.  

 


Edited by cat-nips, 11 December 2018 - 04:38 PM.


#2 Dichotohmy

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:56 PM

I know your feelings here. Sometimes, you just need to bite the bullet and take the treatment if it does more net good than net harm.

 

 

 

No other condition that's treated functionally and managed with meds is stigmatized in the same way, but no other treatments show the same success rate for efficacy in ADHD management.  And once you start, prescribed after diagnosis and treatment and therapeutic doses, going back is very difficult (impossible for me apparently).

 

Lots of other such conditions are stigmatized just as badly or worse. For example, consider non-neuropathic chronic pain and idiopathic fatigue conditions. Here, opiates and opioids, and/or psychostimulants are more helpful than harmful in terms of giving the patient more quality of life. Unfortunately, it is needlessly tough or impossible for patients to get the medication that works and tough for doctors to prescribe. With narcotics and psychostimulants, many doctors who don't want to deal with the controlled-drug paperwork or assume the liability risk of prescribing. Instead we get ridiculous suggestions such as, but not limited to: "maybe antidepressants could help," or "your chronic pain is due to central sensitization, you should exercise more." Treatment-resistant persistent major depressive disorder is another one, where opiates or psychostimulants could be very helpful, but instead the patient gets the run-around. Fibromyalgia, CFS/ME, and EDS are yet more conditions that are very highly stigmatized and treatable with ever controversial narcotics and psychostimulants.

 

Trust me, there are plenty of other things that are terrible diagnoses to have, not just because the condition is disabling in and of itself, but because ignorant people who insist they know better than patients or doctors can't mind their own business.   


Edited by Dichotohmy, 11 December 2018 - 04:58 PM.


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#3 cat-nips

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 07:51 PM

Yeah, you're right.  Thanks for reminding me.  You sound like you've been there.  I'd be willing to make a hypothesis that on a social scale, untreated populations of ADHD and other potentially disabling conditions are a much higher social cost (less support, more unfinished education, more criminality, more drug abuse, more depression, more disabilities), then to not treat with psychostimulants and other narcotics, when necessary, and when there isn't anything else useful. 

 

Yet, the nature of these things cause huge problems and mainstream seems to be divided as what is "truth" or not.  Even people undergoing treatment have contradictory and confused views and potentially develop problems, so it's not like I don't understand.  But it still sucks and I wish there were better options and I guess I don't understand why there aren't yet or couldn't be. 

 

Unfortunately, behavioral techniques for ADHD only work a bit if you have the attention to maintain those techniques.  It's an infinite loop of potential failures over every minutia of life and it seems that only stims can halt that cycle.  At least once you've started them.  Perhaps there's still hope if you don't.  But even before seeking treatment, I did resort to tons of other unorthodox and potentially harmful, less sustainable methods to attempt to maintain that focus and deal with the crap of having ADHD, before I even considered that I may be afflicted.  That was the most dangerous and volatile period for me, until finally discovering treatment.  

 

To have clarity/mental & physical health and be able to structure life the way "normal" people do, as a tradeoff for a potentially shortened lifespan?  It's a trade-off I'd rather not be forced to make, but it seems a better option than a longer lifespan spent miserable doing nothing, being nothing and feeling miserable over it.

 

 

 

  

 

 


Edited by cat-nips, 11 December 2018 - 08:16 PM.


#4 cat-nips

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:11 PM

I know your feelings here. Sometimes, you just need to bite the bullet and take the treatment if it does more net good than net harm.

 

 

Thanks for the empathy.  A much better synopsis than my tome.  A bit of necessary venting on my part as I know there are others who deal with these issues and needed a bit of reminding of that as they're not in my world.  Probably won't ever attempt to quit again, at least until it theoretically kills me.  Whatever.


Edited by cat-nips, 11 December 2018 - 08:14 PM.


#5 jack black

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:54 PM

OP, have you tried DMAE? I've been using it for nearly 3 years now, and it works without tolerance or side effects, subtle stimulation and mild anti-ADHD effects after 500mg a day. I skip it on weekends. probably not enough for severe ADHD though.



#6 cat-nips

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:21 PM

Hi Jack,

I actually have some, but recall a bad experience at one point and being scared away for some reason.  How do you use it? Do you take it with or without stims?

Best, Cat (OP) .  :-D

 



#7 cat-nips

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:24 PM

Dichotomy: Your description on getting things done with ADHD matched mine pretty significantly on the ADHD motivation thread.  Mind if I ask what your current regimen is?



#8 jack black

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:08 PM

Hi Jack,

I actually have some, but recall a bad experience at one point and being scared away for some reason.  How do you use it? Do you take it with or without stims?

Best, Cat (OP) .  :-D

 

I don't take any stims, except for short term trials. yeah, I functioned very well on low dose amphetamine, but not so much on low dose ritalin. i don't have scripts for those for the same reasons as yours. my problem is deficiency of both D and 5HT, very hard to balance.

BTW, low dose selegiline+PEA gave me amphetamine-like effect, but I did that only once.


Edited by jack black, 12 December 2018 - 10:10 PM.


#9 cat-nips

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:09 PM

Heading to the GP for some general tests tomorrow.  Will probably come back with some kind of antidepressant that will go in the back of my cabinet for years.  Better to accept it and say it didn't work than be seen as 'refusing treatment'.

 

Friday, I'm heading to a potential new psych.  Results from that TBD.  

 

Will keep this posted with new options to consider and I hope you guys will help me sort it out when I do.  Too tired to think about this anymore.  It's become way too obsessive at this point.  


Edited by cat-nips, 12 December 2018 - 10:10 PM.


#10 cat-nips

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:14 PM

Jack: Thanks.  I saw the PEA reports, but got scared off from the addiction potential.  DLPA + Selegiline had me feeling weirdly 'high' for awhile.  What do you take to achieve your balance?  D and 5HT seems like it would get imbalanced in many issues, including amphetamine treatment.  



#11 John250

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:52 PM

I don't take any stims, except for short term trials. yeah, I functioned very well on low dose amphetamine, but not so much on low dose ritalin. i don't have scripts for those for the same reasons as yours. my problem is deficiency of both D and 5HT, very hard to balance.
BTW, low dose selegiline+PEA gave me amphetamine-like effect, but I did that only once.


Same here. 10mg Lexapro helps a lot for my ocd, anxiety and depression but it hinders the energy from amphetamines which is why I need so much. That and because I am genetically an ultra metabolizer to them.

#12 cat-nips

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 11:14 PM

Does uridine blunt amp effects? It amplifies Armodafinil. Took half my usual dose with Uridine this AM with coffee and It was potent for a few hours before I got angry and crashed.

#13 DrewMichael21

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 01:41 AM

 I feel you Cat-Nips, as we had in are previous conversations, I've accurued 1200 in parking tickets but at least I finally have a stable job despite being extermely high functioning individual. I think it's my high intelligence and hyper awareness is what allows me to offset my illness. Frankly, like you sense going off medication, nothing has really been the same. I'm always exhausted after work and want to sleep all day. It's not totally horrendious. One new thing, I'm learning is that If I don't eat anything my focus is actually pretty decent which surprises me. I still procrastinate and haven't been AS consistent with my gym routine. It's still there but not as strong, I might go on medication for a few days to get back into routine. The only thing that works, is religiously following routine don't even deviate once. The moment I do this, is the moment that I just slip into old tendencies.It's pretty fucking stupid, that neurotypicals get to enjoy life AND ACCOMPLISH and not deal with the annoyance of making moronic mistakes. This is apart of my deep hatred for neurotypicals and their privilege. I may consider going on my stack again as I told you but I really get anxiety from it. Fish oil I still havent' consistently done. I'd say financially I've been affected the most. I've never ever been able to make a net profit, I'm always working to break even because of stupid shit that I do. I lost my phone charger and gotta buy a new one and haven't paid 3 months of rent, because I have no intention of going broke ever ever again. Frankly, my life is still pretty decent...which is ironic really. 

                                      

                           Cat-nips what helped me was a therapist, I see one religiously every two weeks and it's really helped with my Rejection sensitivity dsyphoria, so now I'm better able to be proactive to situations and be more mindful. Have you considered an executive coach? I intend to get one for the rest of my life along with a therapist because I frankly have no choice, it does help surprisingly. It allows me to be more emotionally stable and gives me an "externalization" to bounce off ideas and how to further improve my life. An executive coach might be useful for you because it externalizes your motivation and gives you a form of feedback. I saw one of Dr. Barkley's videos and he constantly discusses the importance of externalizing stimulus and motivation to allow to complete  a task. I'd say this is very crucial for you, if you wish to go off any medication at any time. You must constantly externalize yourself, with caldendars, planners RELIGIOUSLY, executive coach+therapist. This combination is working fairly well for me surprisingly. Obviously, I can nitpick all the shit I fuck up but I've been finding ways to offset the negatives. This is what you need to do, you need to use your ADHD towards your advantage somehow and you need to make sure that you systematize your environment. Label everything in your apartment is what I do also.  Frankly, I'd just take the medication again and get it over with. I would like to emphasize that it's important you develop important copying mechanisms before you do medication, so that you have the resilience to consistently use the medication.

                  

                                           Next, it's important that you have "scaffolds" or structures in place to calm you down. So make sure your apartment isn't filthy or it will be just increase impulsivity. Despite doing all this, it's still isn't enough but it's better than nothing. My issue with the medication is that it doesn't allow me to enjoy my life, it allows me to accomplish amazing things but doesn't give me a balanced vibe. I personally like having friends and dislike being anti-scoial. This is the issue of medication, either you accomplish ALOT or you accomplish nothing but enjoy your life. Either scenario is fucked unfortunately. What we really need, as of right now is new innovative treatment, that addresses the stimulant zombie effect, stimulant crashes, ADHD destigmatization and further advocacy for ADHD. The single best thing I ever did was tell everyone I know I have ADHD-PI, it helps so much.  People become more understanding and work becomes less harsh about your mistakes. So this really helped with my job stability.  I'm not really sure what more can be done from a non-medication perspective.  I've literally tested everything, possible and nothing comes close to what concerta was able to do for me. However, it comes at a very very high price. Which is a horrible trade off in my view. I suppose the last thing you can work on is, using your willpower strategically.  You need to figure out what is most important and DO IT before your willpower tank runs out. Dr. Barkley also reccomends drinking sugar to increase blood glucose, I've tested this seems to help ok. I find lots of water and not eating which I despise doing improves my focus significantly. Maybe Investigate into fasting? I can definietly say today I focused for 7 hours on a paper which Is unheard off for me.  I also have access to WAY more latent knowledge when I don't eat anything. I'd estimate my IQ increases by 10 iq points perhaps. Although this doesn't mean anything if one is incapable of applying it. 

 

                                              Ultimately, the issue of ADHD, is that nothing is sustainable over long periods of time because you run out of energy. So the sustainability problem of ADHD, must be solved to where we don't have to chronically feel fatigue all day. If we are ever able to reach even 10% of are potential.  Unfortunately, I don't believe a current answer exists to this dilemma because their appears to be no real way to increase the willpower tank without feeling chronic fatigue. Unless their is a mechanism that can further strengthen willpower, then the cycle will be as follows: Willpower---> execute hard task-----> exhaustion-----> willpower-----> execute task-----> fatigue----> willpower low-----> chronic fatigue/constantly tired-----> poor performance/details missed execute task-------> willpower empty------> ignore task-----> burnout------> do nothing for days------> willpower tank refills. This appears to be my cycle and it's hard to stop because once you work alot you simply don't want to do anything because your so drained. You can argue this is an excuse, but the cycle is a very real problem. Unfortunately, we live in a paradox, I don't believe can be solved through an existing technique or special diet. We simply need a new treatment that can stop us from exhausting ourselves. The sustainability problem is why their is an ADHD Wall to begin with, hence a mastery wall. Hence, why we are masters of nothing as well. Everything is interconnected, alas I'm rambling now. My last reccomendation was yoga, I found it calmed me and many prominent successful ADHD people do it. It's becoming clear to me, that we do not need to emulate neurotypicals, we need to emulate SUCCESSFUL ADHD people who have found tricks to overcome these moronic deficits. Hopefully the army allows, stimulants soon, I will get on stimulants again as soon as it's possible :). Although, I'm still hoping I can remedy the zombie effect. 

 

                                                     Just don't give up keep persevering and don't quit. We neurodivergent individuals are at war with neurotypicals and their moronic privilege. We need people to keep educating neurotypicals and we all must advocate for ourselves. Over and over we must do this, or your children will suffer the same fate that you and I suffer.  This is probably the primarily responsibility of a neurodivergent individual is to take the initiative and fight for our neurodivegrent rights and work towards a egaliatarian understanding, so that destigmaitization and ADD treatment becomes MORE accessible rather than inaccessible.  Keep educating yourself on the disorder, which has helped me the most UNDERSTAND why I do what I do. I understand essentially all of my ADHD behaviors, which gives me an awareness on offsetting are negatives.  It's also important to know whether you have moderate or severe ADHD, this will dictate the effectiveness of the treatments i've suggested.  Also, it's important to realize, you can be successful but you have to be able to find the work place which Utilizes your strength's. Other than that, I don't know, we really just need a miracle in ADHD treatment. Stimulant medication is 1960's technology and their has been little innovation other than reformulations to the same drug. Anyways Goodluck, I'll send you my stack update later.


Edited by DrewMichael21, 13 December 2018 - 01:54 AM.


#14 cat-nips

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 02:16 AM

Drew: Thank you for your reply and insights.  It seems like you're doing so much better, and that's great to hear.  You have some very useful suggestions and I agree about the externalization.  NDs get stuck in their heads too much.  It's just, that's where the ideas and creativity come forth.  Routines are boring and forgettable.  Inspiration is so much cooler.  Lol.  I'm kidding, sort of. 

 

If you can do it without stims, then you'll be better off for it.  Maybe you can just use a few nootropics during really trying times and do well.  That would be awesome and very NT.  

 

Everything IS interconnected.  Yet, we all have different cards to play out.  Use your gift to promote global consciousness and positivity.  War isn't necessary in paradigm shifts.  Anger will only hurt you over time.  

 

Keep me posted on the army.  What about school?  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 



#15 DrewMichael21

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 04:18 AM

    Well, it's war for me and I intend to make my mark one way or another, ADHD or No ADHD. ADHD has stolen much from me and I will not let it steal anymore, if I can do more to help the ND movement. Well, I was working towards my 4.0 but it failed miserably because I had to start paying my bills somehow, sense I'm getting poor. In other respects, I lost focus at the end the semester so I probably won't get my 4.0 which fucking pisses me off, sense I'd been working 3 months towards this only to lose site of the mission which is obviously a classic ADHD problem. I'll be lucky to maintain 3.7, which I'm working my ass off to protect because I need this for a discount on my rent, so I can save for money. So that was pretty disappointing, I'd like to dance again at some point, but I haven't found any dance teams in the area and I'm still in shock about loosing everything in San Jose, as you know in my reference thread. So there's that. Oh I also lost my license, which was really stupid. School is going ok though, I just use planners, pomodoro timers, and calendars with therapy. Seems to work ok but keep in mind I'm only taking 13 units. Next semester, is 19 units and I will likely burnout as a result along with working, so that's going to be really annoying to deal with. Along with my student debt, which I also still have to pay back.   

                                            In other news, I've done alot this semester but it's not even close to what I did in SAN JOSE. What I did there was fucking amazing, in comparison to what I have now. Which I dare say is a normality of what it means to be regular. I despise being normal achieving, I want to accomplish everything I can within this one finite existence, but obviously that simply hasn't happened.  My goals and ability to work constructively is still impaired and I'm still pretty tangenty, but I'm way more aware of it. Other than that, it's just a grind at this point. A souless and unfun grind but a grind nonetheless. I'd say socially, I'm pretty dissappointed by Idaho, it's very cliquelike and not very understanding. So my next objectives, are to get more friends. I enjoy having great conversations and doing things with people. Problem is, I never have anyone to do something fun with. Which is a terrible bore to say the least.  It's also terribly dreary in moscow, with the constant snow, So I'm looking forward to the Sun again. I intend to get out doors. I find when I'm by myself I have a tendency to be alone all day which I must fight at all times for me to experience the full totality of life.  The army, is pretty interesting, the rules are very for your executive functions and it calms me down a bit. At the same time, I personally hate my squad leader and the whole cadre because their arrogance. In reality, If I was an NT I would destroy them in running  and what not. I personally hate people who are better than me, so that's another intrinsic drive of mine. So ARMY ROTC, is very fucking brutal, you have to do shit tons of running at 5 am in 15 degree weather, until your mentally dead. This is NOT an ADHD friendly environment other than the rules. I've studied ROTC enough, it appears the pros will outweigh the cons. It was pretty funny the other day, a guy did more pushups than me which was a shock because I've been doing it for 2 years and he did more. So that was annoying as well. You probably won't like the army, it's very regulated and it's very anti-individual. Coming from a HYPER individual person who hates taking orders, it takes ALOT to not get angry. So school, is ok, It's pretty isolating even for me, so that get's to me at times. So I got a pet betta to keep me company sense I have no life. Oh and another thing I hate about NT'S is their lack of humor. I love telling jokes and they never laugh, so that is really annoying as well. Other than that it seems to be ok but I'm not telling you EVERYTHING. I feel like, I'd rather be a psychopath frankly.



#16 cat-nips

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 04:31 AM

You’re doing fine, Drew. You’ll be stronger at the end once you get through it. You weren’t ranting in the first post but then started letting your anger get you worked up and started forgetting paragraphs again. Take a few breaths.

Winters can be brutal for everyone. It will pass, as will the grind. Keep going. Find something that makes you happy for a short time. Not very helpful advice but I’m here listening. Congratulations on your gpa. That is amazing work. Keep it up and you’ll have something concrete to build on and feel proud of.

Best, Cat

Edited by cat-nips, 13 December 2018 - 04:46 AM.

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#17 mono

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 04:55 AM

I can empathise with how you are feeling as I have schizoaffective and feel hopeless so often because of it..

I'm not sure there are any direct answers, but sometimes things can help a little bit, then a bit more, so don't stop searching.

My meditation I enjoy it and it at least gives me the goal of reaching the healing potential of samadhi/enlightenment.

I know belief in a higher power can help sometimes, but then it can also be just as frustrating when there isn't any help coming from said higher power.  :sad:

But my beliefs including god and the soul carrying on after death, it puts some perspective on where I am at when I am down, and it makes me want to do my best in life too.

Just my 2 cents, I wish you the best anyway.


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#18 jack black

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 03:50 PM

Jack: Thanks.  I saw the PEA reports, but got scared off from the addiction potential.  DLPA + Selegiline had me feeling weirdly 'high' for awhile.  What do you take to achieve your balance?  D and 5HT seems like it would get imbalanced in many issues, including amphetamine treatment.  

 

right now, I take agmatine to curb my anxiety. i take 500mg every weekday, but it seems to kill libido. before, i took propranolol PRN. I also experimented with low dose SSRI and SNRI and they helped too (except for the libido part).

actually, I believe amphs produce a release of both D and HT5 and this is why it worked well for me.
 



#19 John250

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 05:43 PM

right now, I take agmatine to curb my anxiety. i take 500mg every weekday, but it seems to kill libido. before, i took propranolol PRN. I also experimented with low dose SSRI and SNRI and they helped too (except for the libido part).
actually, I believe amphs produce a release of both D and HT5 and this is why it worked well for me.

I see a lot of positive feedback on Agmatine increasing libido. Maybe users are confusing better blood flow for libido but then again Agmatine increases luteinizing hormone which increases testosterone. But Agmatine activates 5ht2a which is linked to sexual dysfunction but at the same time 5ht2a activation increases testosterone so that’s a little odd. Apparently sexual dysfunction from 5ht2a activation is unclear as to why it happens but this article is pretty good:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4034069/

Edited by John250, 13 December 2018 - 05:44 PM.


#20 jack black

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 07:16 PM

for me agmatine feels just like low dose SSRI. I checked and agmatine somehow seems to work through 5HT receptors as blockers block agmatine activity.

so no suprise about the libido part.

even more, I googled and found this:

 

High Agmatine levels inhibit the nitric oxide synthase (NOS) in your body. When your Agmatine levels are out of range, inadequate amount of nitric oxide production cannot effectively pump blood into your penis chamber, leading to a flaccid state.

http://www.herballov...le-dysfunctions

confusing to say the least.

 


Edited by jack black, 13 December 2018 - 07:18 PM.


#21 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 01:19 AM

You guys are the best support. Responses jump from expressing empathy, solidarity and then back to the scientific, pharmacological and physiological. Thank you.

Edited by cat-nips, 14 December 2018 - 01:19 AM.


#22 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 01:24 AM

@mono, also tend to lean towards the Buddhist philosophies, at least in theory. Emotions get too volatile in the day to day moment to adhere for very long.
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#23 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 01:38 AM

My experimental year was a bust. But things are learned from failures. Regret only wastes more time and focus needs to be maintained on getting out of this self created trap of a life that I’m now in. I’ll never attempt this again.

#24 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 02:36 PM

Agmatine is on my list for NMDA Antagonism.  The libido thing would probably take it off.  Low-dose SSRI sounds a bit concerning as well.

 

Interested in trialing with Mag Threonate at night to keep tolerance in check and for harm reduction.  Does anyone know if it would be useful for that?  



#25 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 02:45 PM

John: I'm saving that pub med ref for further evaluation.

 

Jack:  Saw the link, and I wasn't aware that serotonin, dopamine could be evaluated by urine tests.  If they can, I've been seeing the wrong doctors.



#26 jack black

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 05:03 PM

 

 

Jack:  Saw the link, and I wasn't aware that serotonin, dopamine could be evaluated by urine tests.  If they can, I've been seeing the wrong doctors.

 

frankly, i wasn't sure how scientific that was.



#27 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 05:33 PM

Update: I went to the doc yesterday.  

 

AM: My partner yells at me in the morning and screams about me being late again and not having my shit together (he can't stand it).  I can't seem to find my ID card, insurance info, address of where we're going, or my keys.

 

ME: That's why I'm going to the doctor. Stop yelling!

 

DOC:  Your bloodwork comes out normal and BP is normal.  What concerns bring you here today?

 

ME:  I've been miserable the last year.  Was on ADHD treatment for a few years and then I stopped and my life is falling apart.  I need a psych referral to resume treatment. 

 

DOC: Why did you stop?

 

ME:  We moved. I was stubborn.  Thought I could manage without.  

 

DOC: How have you been managing?  Can you take a look at this questionnaire?  (10 questions.  Been here so many times before.  The verbage is so familiar.  I don't need to look or even think about the words I'm seeing)

 

PARTNER:  She was way better on meds.  Things aren't getting done and it's making life hard on us.

 

DOC:  Ok. I can manage your meds here if you like.  Is a slightly lower dose than what you used to take alright to start with because you've been off?  Then come back in a month and then every 90 days for checkup?

 

ME:  What?  No psych, no questionnaires, no evals, therapy?  I could hug you, but I don't know if you want that.   (she hugged me, lol).

 

PHARM TECH:  We don't have it.  It's going to take about a week to get.  Oh wait, your insurance requires prior authorization.  Call your doc to change your prescription or call the insurance to find other options.  It's $283 out of pocket.  (I've been here too. No way I'm calling this lady back to harass her over PAs and changing meds.  I burst into tears and walk away, while he mutters an apology about the rules).  

 

Later I bring my partner back to same pharmacy with a discount card to reduce out of pocket costs to 94, and tell him I'll be in here every month and will discuss further options regarding PA and changing meds next month.  He tells me to be prepared to deal with at least a week delay every time I reorder and orders can only be put in every 30 days.

 

PARTNER:  WHAT?  How is this acceptable?  Would this work for heart medicine?  These meds cause withdrawals when you stop!  (The pharmacist again mutters about the rules, but I already knew the deal and am past the point of getting angry over it).

 

LATER, we're watching a documentary about the old NY Hardcore scene and there's a band member citing clear ADHD like symptoms, and then mentions he doesn't know but he's always been a weirdo.  Some kind of ADHD thing maybe.  Descriptions sound all too familiar.  This sends me into a tizzy and I start looking up studies on the social cost of untreated ADHD and resulting outcomes, and new fMRI data on the structural differences in ADHD and non-ADHD brains.  I'm pretty worked up at this point and start ranting a bit.  My partner has heard similar before.  He tunes me out for a bit.

 

ME:  YOU'RE NOT EVEN LISTENING TO ME!  

 

HIM:  Cat, at what point does it all just be an excuse.  Why can't it be that some are more fuckups than others?  (End of the day and he's tired).

 

This sends me into more of a rage and I start ranting again about how new ADHD data does not show deficits in intelligence but is correlated with less neurotransmission in the prefontal cortex of the brain and also functional differences in the Amygdala size.  It doesn't register.  He looks at me blankly.

 

ME: What if you daughter were ever to be diagnosed?  What would you tell others?  (She's 8 and reading 2 years above grade level, 1 year above math levels, but complains of short term memory loss and is always forgetting things or daydreaming in class or tests, which affects her performance during tests on material she clearly knows and is fluent in, but spaces out on sometimes.  School is mostly easy for her.  But she makes mistakes due to inattention and 96's turn into 86's.  At home she always losing her jacket, backpack, remotes and won't see them sometimes even if they're right in front of her.  She's mastered fortnite though, and is starting to play around with mods and some basic coding in Minecraft.  The word ADD is rarely even mentioned in her presence in fear of bias formation, but I see the flags and they are also too familiar.  Things have gotten worse for her since I've gone untreated, from being less on top of her than I normally would be, out of distraction).  

 

HIM:  Why would I tell anyone that?

 

ME:  WHY WOULD YOU NOT!  SEE THIS STIGMATIZATION IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.  Is it shameful for kids to need glasses, or be on insulin? (No response.  There's silence.  We're angry.)  

 

HIM: Go call the congressman if you're so upset!.  (I storm upstairs and shut the door, furious for hours, and do more research and crash on the couch. I know he means well. I know I can be hard for deal with.  He has his own problems and anger issues to try to control, that I have to deal with.  We provoke each other a lot, but also support each other a lot).  

 

I'm still unmedicated at this point and down to 37.5 Artvigil, while I wait for my script to come in.  Unmedicated, not in withdrawal, yet still ADHD, still scattered, still hyperactive, and still highly emotionally unregulated.  And so it shall continue, but I remain hopeful....

 

 

 

 


Edited by cat-nips, 14 December 2018 - 06:09 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#28 John250

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 06:03 PM

Agmatine is on my list for NMDA Antagonism. The libido thing would probably take it off. Low-dose SSRI sounds a bit concerning as well.

Interested in trialing with Mag Threonate at night to keep tolerance in check and for harm reduction. Does anyone know if it would be useful for that?


I don’t think it will be a problem for you as it’s not so much libido it’s more erection quality for men. Agmatine slightly increases testosterone so for women it should help much more for libido.

#29 John250

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 06:08 PM

John: I'm saving that pub med ref for further evaluation.

Jack: Saw the link, and I wasn't aware that serotonin, dopamine could be evaluated by urine tests. If they can, I've been seeing the wrong doctors.


Serotonin and Dopamine are not at all accurate through blood or urine testing. My psychiatrist told me there is only one test available but it’s highly extensive and costs upwards of $15,000. It’s some type of MRI or brainwave type testing that still isn’t 100%.

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#30 cat-nips

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 06:19 PM

That's what I thought as well.  via fMRI, SPECT, maybe PET.  Which is why the numbers in that article are strange and how would you be able to make a determination on that through urinalysis anyway?  Would definitely be cool if you could though.  


Edited by cat-nips, 14 December 2018 - 06:31 PM.






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