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""Inattentive" ADD"


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#1 orangish

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 08:30 PM


I am posting this in nootropics, because I guess I'm looking for more potent, or effective solutions. Not limited to but certainly including nootropics. I wish there was a broader topic, because this doesnt' really fit under any of the threads. But it seems to have most overlap with nootropics.

But at this point although meditation calms me down to the point where I can produce my unfocused state of not being able to attain thoughts and just drifting, there is much much that is troubling, and I want to get a sense from the knowledge here of what provenly works and what

So I know people here are very keen on evidence backing up certain statements and symptoms. Yes I have stress which i am managing. MUCH of my stress comes from having to hold unfocused convos with professors because my paper is late because I couldnt focus, because I couldnt think through texts, because I signed up for courses that in my current condition are exhaustively challenging. I describe my focusing problems as processing problems, ADD just being a shorthand for a lengthy description and tie-in to moments, experiences, events that painfully make no sense. I mean, every 2 mintues in a class which i've prepared for I have to rein my mind in, and even at that, focusing is troublesome.

I've been seriously pursuing trying to find a solution for the past year. And have perplexedly suffered and miserably compensated for the past 13 years, prior to that I have poor memory (i'm 20). Been on strattera, but it still didn't help my missing the point a majority of the time, tried adderall but it flipped me out, guarana was the only thing that mildly helped.

Most recently, I've explored amino acid therapy from neuroscience (neuroscienceinc.net). Don't know how reliable the urinary neurotransmtiter tests are, but I was found to have low dopamine, norepi and epi with normal sertonin, pea, gaba, glutamine. The last few months have been me going on different combos prescribed by a doctor (which can be found on the website) travacor (for sleep) +prevamine, travacor +adrecor. If dosing info. would be helpful, I can include that. I'm having a very mixed response to this treatment. while i can SLIGHTLY focus better, i am also put into quite a sinister mood, and find that though scant moments can contain better focus, the majority of time I am aware but can't understand my drifting. I mean I can't explain why I'm drifting other than as something beyond control. I figure being able to focus enough on the moments I digress would be a sign of focusing in itself. Yet I am confined to words like "focusing" "getting on topic" and the such, vague broad words, which are related to my overall (hopefully transitory) inability to describe things as "life is wretched" "my whole life is compromised by unfocusedness." Though these seem like statements generated by stress and deprsesion, I can assure you that to some extent they are valid, only I am incapable enough of seeing light to generalization, and saying "I can't focus on coursework." Because truth being I can't focus when walking down a quiet street talking to my favorite person either.

Other supplements I am taking are bacopa, ashw, vit c, aor's high epa, opc's, occasionally garlic, liv52, b-50 complex.

I have went on a diet for a yeast infection, which supposedly for unknwon reasons works for some. I sweat horribly and odorously, and these with my wandering mind lead to such a miserable state of mind.

What I am wondering, and regret bombarding the board with more of these "sick me" posts, but what does the outcome look like for different treatments? I know I shouldnt' overly go in with expectations, but talking to certain ADD specialists about processing problems, and faulty cognition, I was told I couldn't reach a higher level without medicine. That's made some sort of treatment a bit of a necessity (I can fill you in on more of my life if you still think that all of my problem is stress and that I should go off and meditate).

A broader goal.
At this point, I want to try what works the most adequately, because its too painful to continue so unfocused, to have my biggest daily struggle be trying to make it through a relatively enticing class, which I enjoy but cannot harness my mind to. Any feedback about what my symtpoms entail for cognition, or how to alleviate such difficulties--recommednations for books of mental exercises, nootropics, supplements would be appreciated.


some specific questions:

Do you think that if I'm encountering a sinister mood on amino acid treatment, which helps me be cognizant of not focusing, but doesn't help with the focusing bit, do you think that I should continue? I am supposed to start taking this supplement with l-dopa in it, and am worried that if it doesn't help I have come to a dead end. What else is there to be used for such cognitive difficulties? Piracetam didn't work. pyritinol I tried for about a week btu didn't experience anything remarkable, possibly only slight benefits. And this is broad, but what I'm looking for is a sense of 1. what might be wrong with me that I'm not addressing, biochemically 2. what i could add/do for that 3. how long should it take to notice effects for what you propose might work 4. are there things in my regimen that from your experience have no benefit--specifically i am thinking of the yeast treatment i have taken under, i have no idea if or if not that will impact my cognition.

I regret having this post be so sprawling, I wish I could've condensed this into a more incisive and perceptive post. In any case, I hope that some good souls out there will offer what knowledge they've gained in hopefully their informative encounters with neuroscience, nootropics, biochemistry.

#2 boilerroom

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 12:10 AM

Definitely stick with the bacopa and expect up to 3 months to see effects. I hear what your saying (difficult to explain although): your mentally focused but still extremely scattered. I know very little about ADD but you probobly have an extreme imbalance of transmitters such as dopamine, serotonin, GABA, etc...What makes the problem so difficult is that, at least from some articles I've read, you can have a deficiency of one transmitter in one area, limbic system for example, but also be overloaded in another region. You say you were on Adderall, which increases dopamine levels, so I'd probobly stay away from dopamine supplements. I just posted about bad short-term memory and it appears to be linked to serotonin. If I had to make a COMPLETELY UNEDUCATED GUESS, I would say your are somehow serotonin deficient. I also believe I am mildly deficient but have not been fully convinced about any natural ways to increase (5htp...). I am probobly going the Bacopa route myself.

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#3 orangish

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 12:35 AM

Pardon the SPRAWLING post. Boillerroom, I guess that's what my question was about kind of the accuracy of urinary neurotransmitter levels. To briefly reiterate the focus, I basically rebound from my thoughts, my mind keeps ambling from though to thought, and though I try to rein it in, its exhausting. But I've been on ranges of drugs, not in conjunction that target different areas. Serotonin drugs, celexa, calm me down, but then there's more room for my slow slow illogical ambling thoughts to proliferate, and well I spend days looking for the perfect bag. More because I couldn't focus and was using the bag to get organized and try and focus, by overanalyzing. That said, I think my deficiency isn't singlehanded. But am thinking, maybe hoping, other nutrient deficiences can cause this as well.

My two really focused questions if you couldnt get through that novel back there. Would r-ala or coq10 be worth looking into, how likely would they be to help with focusing? I wish I could know what specific mechanism,mechanisms were causing this, then I could just target those areas instead of hit or miss. The other part, does anybody have any idea what other tests or deficiencies to explore that could be causing focusing problems--tests that would be both reliable and relevant? I am indeed somewhat wary of the neurotransmitter tests because of the sparse detail on the complicated process...I think before more specific questions, Im trying to figure out what direction to take dissolving this cognitive trouble.

#4 boilerroom

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 02:00 AM

I didn't have alot of time to read your post very carefully at first; sorry about that. I actually like the supplements your taking right now (B-complex, EPA..), but are you taking a multi-vitamin? I don't know anything about r-ala and am not sure that CoQ10 would help with focus necessarily. I've read that alot of people with ADD or lack of focusing problems have low levels of magnesium and some have low-levels of zinc. I would definitely try a good magnesium supplement or magnesium based medication. Try searching for yourself online. Here's what I came up with very briefly:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....2&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ctds.info..._magnesium.html

It's worth a try I guess. Supplement wise, I would stay away from Magnesium Oxide (found in many cheap kinds) and opt for Magnesium Citrate or some other that has high absorption. Stay away from supplements that include Calcium with it because I believe they compete with eachother somewhat. Most multi-vitamins lack sufficient magnesium and many diets are high calcium. You could also try THEANINE. It's not for me, but it helps to relax many people without a sedative effect.

Did you only sweat heavily when you were on your diet? Heavy sweating may be a sign of thyroid trouble. Find a doctor that specializes in it because there are a number of tests that are needed to accurately diagnose it; many people are misdiagnosed numerous times.

Again, I know very little about all of this, but fixing your nutritional deficiencies is a low risk/high reward thing.

#5 purerealm

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:09 PM

I have the same problem I think it's serotonin too because my mood is usually pretty sullen, I have sleeping problems, and I can't focus

#6 Brainbox

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:55 PM

The gut feeling I get reading your posts (I’m not in a medical profession, actually very far from it), is that you seem to try a lot of treatments in quite short periods of time. If this is a fact or merely my perception, I don’t know. Wouldn’t it be better to change treatment less frequently and try to experience effects on longer terms? I realise that must be quite hard if you’re very determined to find something that works, but this way it maybe could add to any existing instability in stead of being beneficial?

I have somewhat the same problems you have, however in a far less level of severity. I seem to have managed to live with it, but still reading these topics with a lot of interest.

Reading is ok with me, provided I’m in an environment that it not to distracting. Listening is difficult and I really need to concentrate otherwise I miss complete sentences, or worse. Just doing things and learn from that, like doing a design or analysis task, works best for me. What also works quite well is following lectures with (powerpoint) presentations that contain lots of graphical information.

But I guess every person is unique in this….

Basically, I’m trying to eat right, work out and in addition to that I take some supplementation. A good multiple and EPA/DHA. I stopped taking ALCAR, but planning to start it again in the near future. Before sleep I take Theanine and magnesium which really deals quite well with stress in my case.

What also helps me, is brain wave entrainment. Not in big steps, but it sure has effect on my concentration and focussing issues. I use this software. I like the effect of alpha and theta waves, it's more or less an aid in meditation. I take an hour before sleep for this to level out.

Anyway, good luck

:)

#7 orangish

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:11 PM

I sympathize purerealm, I really do. Have you not found anything yet that works? What do you plan to do?
I don't know what this symptom(s) is, but I know its getting quite deleterious. Whatever this condition is its caused much grief in that I've never been able to fully think in the present moment, much less the future. I can't even read through a syllabus for the courses I'm taking, but somehow I do manage to be coherent at times. Unfortunately, my life is just lived bouncing from semester to semester because of this cognitive difficulty, and that's creating real problems for what deeper person and more capable person, just slightly more connected with things, I'm attempting to become. Now I have to think about making a living and supporting sick family members, and am so wary that I'm just going to be this inane, mindless, unable to think person, because I really can't adhere my mind to focus enough to think about even reading a single book within a day. I take 5htp which is no help. celexa let some of my rigidity go, but i seriously couldnt settle my mind to razor through even the most basic of conversations. I also take a slew of other supplements mentioned above which a doctor, who seemed not a quack and has a somewhat reliable background, prescribed. Please, if anyone has advice, I would really appreciate it. I am trying meditation, but dont have enough mind muster to even get a consistency and intensity going. consistency meaning a slightly expanded awareness, or same sort of quality of meditation.

what i am wondering, and will attempt to ask more specifically:
if attention problems are an issue, would getting a biochemical profile be advisable? i don't want to overkill, but also i need to know what's crucial to rule out.

has anyone heard anything about germanium?

i don't think the stray trial and error supplementation is the most viable approach, and since my experience with specialists in the ADD field is that they don't really have much more than experimental knowledge, would appreciate opinions.

#8 beej

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 06:57 AM

Hey dude

As someone who sufferers terribblely from many of the subtypes of adhd I can sympathise and o0ffer this one piece of advice;

Do not do your head in surfing the net looking for solutions. For every person or study that says one thing works you will find another contradicting it.

I have found it far more usefull (especially with my shitty memory) to but a book and get everything laid out by one person.

But I am sad to say after about 12 months of solid research there is presious few answers.

Even though I hate SSRI's and swore never to take them again I have gone back on prozac for the limbic componant for no other reason other than the absolute wealth of overwhelming evidence for the positive effect on neurogenesis and therefore mood.
i started on a quarter of a dose in the evenings and gradually worked up to a full dose over a month.

If you get Tardive Dyskenesia you may like to include propranolol 40mg to counteract it. Propranolol itself is turning out to be an amazing substance that blocks the effect of stress hormones on the brain and can help you overcome phobias.

Vitamin E 500iu and a b complex are the only vitamins worth bothering with despite what people rekon. In particular I have found insolitol energising.
Take a daily magnesium supp
Take twice daily dose of nsaid typr anti inflamitory (must be with food!!)
blueberries again for neurogenesis
eat lots of root veg, oily fish

Have you thought about trying a nicotine patch? Buy a full strength one and quarter it. It is not addictive when taken transdermally.

But by far, way more than all of these put together is aerobic exercise, particually running, for the amazing effect on neurogenesis in various parts of the brain.


Hope this helps

#9 orangish

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 07:06 AM

my trial period is generally two weeks--is that not enough? do you think magnesium could help counteract high cortisol at night so i could be better equipped to somehow handle my stress during the day?

albeit, treatment may take long term, but i feel so significantly impaired right now.

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#10 beej

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 08:01 AM

SSRI's can definetly make you worse, try switching the dose to the evening or dropping back a quarter of a tablet. Not everyone needs what they define as the minimum dose.

If you are stressed and anxious during the day you could try the propranolol, but it can have side effects including depression though I have found it ok. it is best used only for acute stress though

Whatever you do, make sure you do everything you can to manage your stress. It is absolutely toxic to the brain.

Get this idea of natural = good out of your head. You need an effective treatment. ritalin maybe?

Read

these

http://www.amazon.co...glance&n=283155


http://www.amazon.co...ng=UTF8&s=books

and don't try too many things at once. But I can't say exercise too many times, Exercise!




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