18 replies to this topic

[MKultra]

"Collagen, like other proteins, is broken down into amino acids by enzymes in the stomach and small intestine. These amino acids then enter the blood stream via the hepatic portal to the liver. Whatever amino acids the liver does not use get released into the bloodstream for the rest of the body. It doesn't matter if you're consuming straight collagen (gelatin) or hydrolyzed collagen (collagen peptides)—they both break down into amino acids, the basic building blocks of all proteins."

 

https://www.bodybuil...-superfood.html

 

Why would you want to consume super expensive collagen, having it being broken down into the common amino acids? Because it says "collagen" on the label? If this is correct i can just eat protein and make sure they contain all these amino acids.

 

Not sure i understand the article, because it does say its effective too, so its not like they have a problem promoting that people should buy it. 

 

 

[Kimer Med]

Personally, I don't think collagen supplements are anything special.

 

Consuming the right proteins is important. However, getting enough Vitamin C is also critical for collagen production.

 

If I was concerned about collagen, I would focus on getting enough (balanced) protein my diet, and include Vit C in my supplement program. I wouldn't add collagen supplements unless I was addressing a specific health problem or lab test result.

 

[MKultra]

Yes this sounds reasonable.

 

I'm just curious why people go through the trouble and expense of buying e.g tri-peptide collagen. "it's absorbed better", they say. Really? if its broken down into amino acids anyways then why would it even be a problem in the first place? there's also discussion about which is the best collagen, marine etc. would this matter if its broken down into amino acids in the stomach? 

 

Slightly OT, but as for Vitamin C. How do you take it and in which amount? I bought some ascorbic acid (as i understand it doesn't matter if its this synthetic form or from a real fruit, it's the exact same molecule that you want.) Do you mix it with baking powder to get it more neutral? 

 

 

 

[Kimer Med]

Yes this sounds reasonable.

 

I'm just curious why people go through the trouble and expense of buying e.g tri-peptide collagen. "it's absorbed better", they say. Really? if its broken down into amino acids anyways then why would it even be a problem in the first place? there's also discussion about which is the best collagen, marine etc. would this matter if its broken down into amino acids in the stomach? 

 

Slightly OT, but as for Vitamin C. How do you take it and in which amount? I bought some ascorbic acid (as i understand it doesn't matter if its this synthetic form or from a real fruit, it's the exact same molecule that you want.) Do you mix it with baking powder to get it more neutral? 

 

Why do people buy stuff they don't really need? Marketing! Also, there's a *tremendous* amount of mis-information flying around the health and fitness communities. That's not to say that some people don't need and wouldn't benefit from taking collagen directly -- I'm sure there are people with certain health problems who would.

 

Regarding the best source (for those who truly need it), one of the issues is impurities. Things like microtoxins, micronutrients, and so on. It would be similar to other supplements in that way.

 

My favorite form of Vit C is Liposomal C. I put the contents of a packet in a small amount of water, then swirl and swallow; makes it easy to take. It's not cheap, but it's effective and convenient. From my research and personal experience, 1 gram of liposomal is equivalent to about 5 grams of powder taken orally. If you're working with a serious health issue, it's also possible to reach a much higher blood concentration with liposomal than it is with the powder.

 

I also sometimes take Ascorbic Acid powder -- 1 tsp in a glass of water, usually with food. Works fine, too. If I don't take it with food, I rinse my mouth with water afterwards to avoid any potentially negative effects of acid lingering on my teeth.

 

I don't bother mixing with baking soda or baking powder, since I don't want the extra sodium. The acid aspect doesn't bother my stomach; it just tastes sour for a few seconds, and it's over.

 

Vit C has a short half-life in the body, so frequent dosing is ideal, particular if you're dealing with a serious health issue. For me, I take it as an occasional supporting adjunct (such as for collagen), so in that context I'm happy with once/day dosing.

[MKultra]

True enough, but people on this forum usually have better knowledge than on other places (my experience at least), therefore my question.. I was thinking maybe i had missed something. People here seem to be rather positive about collagen. I recently saw someone here mega-dosing the super expensive tri-peptides, it was what made me google differences of collagen and protein / amino acids (took me approx 3 seconds to find this article). 

 

That Liposomal C on iherb is quite expensive, how many doses are in that?  

Thanks for the info  

[Kimer Med]

True enough, but people on this forum usually have better knowledge than on other places (my experience at least), therefore my question.. I was thinking maybe i had missed something. People here seem to be rather positive about collagen. I recently saw someone here mega-dosing the super expensive tri-peptides, it was what made me google differences of collagen and protein / amino acids (took me approx 3 seconds to find this article). 

 

That Liposomal C on iherb is quite expensive, how many doses are in that?  

Thanks for the info

 

Collagen is an interesting and somewhat complex subject. Proteins and Vit C are really only the high-level view. There are more thorough / involved supplementation programs out there (with some really bright people behind them). It plays a range of important roles in the body, no doubt about it. For me, at my age (59) and health status, it's been a low priority. That may change over the next few years.

 

One box of LypriCel Liposomal C provides 30 doses (30 packets). I know people who use inexpensive powder on an everyday basis, but keep Liposomal on-hand to use if they get sick (Vit C is a good anti-viral, but requires a relatively high blood level that's difficult to reach with powder alone), or use it when they're traveling when powder would be inconvenient. Others just can't stand the taste of the powder or don't want to deal with the hassle of measuring-and-mixing, and are willing to a premium for the Liposomal alternative.

 

If you're interested in the medical aspects of Vit C, here's a link to an interesting talk: 

[Phoebus]

This is a common belief but incorrect. As I discovered in my thread here 

 

https://www.longecit...ce-of-collagen/

 

This study here basically says that collagen peptides can be utilized directly by the body without being broken down into its basic amino acid components. 

 

This flies in the face of literally hundred of websites which claim that collagen is first broken down into glycine, proline, etc and then those individual amino acids are used by the body. This study says no, the entire collagen peptide can be directly transferred to the bloodstream and the skin! 

 

 

Oral Ingestion of Collagen Hydrolysate Leads to the Transportation of Highly Concentrated Gly-Pro-Hyp and Its Hydrolyzed Form of Pro-Hyp into the Bloodstream and Skin

 

Collagen hydrolysate is a well-known dietary supplement for the treatment of skin aging; however, its mode of action remains unknown. Previous studies have shown that the oral ingestion of collagen hydrolysate leads to elevated levels of collagen-derived peptides in the blood, but whether these peptides reach the skin remains unclear. 

 

Here, we analyzed the plasma concentration of collagen-derived peptides after ingestion of high tripeptide containing collagen hydrolysate in humans. We identified 17 types of collagen-derived peptides transiently, with a particular enrichment in Gly-Pro-Hyp. This was also observed using an in vivo mouse model in the plasma and skin, albeit with a higher enrichment of Pro-Hyp in the skin. 

Interestingly, this Pro-Hyp enrichment in the skin was derived from Gly-Pro-Hyp hydrolysis, as the administration of pure Gly-Pro-Hyp peptide led to similar results. Therefore, we propose that functional peptides can be transferred to the skin by dietary supplements of collagen.

 

https://pubs.acs.org...cs.jafc.6b05679

 

By the way according to my research the therapuetic dose of collagen is 10 grams/day which almost no one ever does . 

 

I'm doing 6 grams a day with 1 gram Lysine and dark chocolate first thing in the morning and my facial skin has markedly improved 

Edited by Phoebus, 21 January 2019 - 02:14 AM.

[MKultra]

@AceNZ : thanks again, will take a look at that video!

 

@Phoebus : ah so i was missing something then, that's very good to know. Do you use tri-peptide variant? It does not even seem to be available here in Sweden.. It's probably not something i intended to use for any extended period but perhaps for a short time if i do a more serious facial peel. Before (maybe for 2 weeks or whatever) and after for a couple of weeks, to make sure the skin has all that it needs to build up nicely again.

[Phoebus]

I use Collagen I and III

[onz]

Phoebus, I'm curious why you're only using 6g when you mention the therapeutic dose is 10g? And could you elaborate on the inclusion of lysine?

[Phoebus]

Phoebus, I'm curious why you're only using 6g when you mention the therapeutic dose is 10g? And could you elaborate on the inclusion of lysine?

 

 

10 grams is to treat injuries, I tried 6 gr/day and got visible results in my face with less noticable wrinkles so I felt that was a good dosage. If I had a serious ligament injury I would be doing 10 gr/day. 

 

I include Lysine for 2 reasons. First because it prevents collagen from breaking down. 

 

Secondly, I have Herpes 1 (the cold sore herpes variety) and collagen has a lot of arginine in it which can trigger herpres, lysine counteracts arginine. 

 

https://selfhacked.c...ealth-benefits/

 

also in the future if you quote someone's post they get an alert, otherwise the person might not notice your reply, just an FYI 

Edited by Phoebus, 25 February 2019 - 01:43 AM.

[William Sterog]

I was going to link your very good thread, Phoebus. Great job there.

[ta5]

I have yet to see any evidence that the hydrolyzed collagen products have any more benefit than plain gelatin. I take 25g of NOW Beef gelatin twice daily in my food.

 

One benefit is that it's low in Methionine and Leucine. Together with a small amount of meat, only 1.5-2oz per day, I'm able to get just barely adequate Methionine and Leucine and >100% of all the other essential amino acids. Plus it should be good for skin, hair, nails, bones, blood vessels, and maybe longevity. 

Edited by ta5, 17 March 2019 - 10:05 PM.

[JohnD60]

I take 6g/day of Great Lakes collagen Hydolysate. Of course the collagen is broken down in your stomach to amino acids. The benefit of supplementing collagen is that it supplies  large amounts of the amino acids Glycin and Proline, which are inadequate in the diets of most people because we eat only muscle meat, and feed the skins and ligaments to animals. But, but, but you say that Glycin and Proline are not essential amino acids. No, they are not classified as essential amino acids, but if you actually read the studies from the 1950s that established this you will realize how weak that decision was. Basically dietary tests on less than 200 people, all healthy college students in their 20s. No testing on older people or people in not so good of health.

[Peatson]

For me, Hyaluronic acid Jarrow (120mg, take 5 a day), Astaxanthin (10mg NOW), Melotonin LE with Altrient C is the ultimate skin formula. Additionally ensure you get enough vitamin D from being outside often and regular saunas (I sauna 4 times a week in the mornings for 30 minutes). 

 

CeraVe, Foaming Facial Cleanser, For Normal to Oily Skin is another addon. 

Edited by Peatson, 21 April 2020 - 07:48 AM.

[bosharpe]

 

For me, Hyaluronic acid Jarrow (120mg, take 5 a day), Astaxanthin (10mg NOW), Melotonin LE with Altrient C is the ultimate skin formula. Additionally ensure you get enough vitamin D from being outside often and regular saunas (I sauna 4 times a week in the mornings for 30 minutes). 

 

CeraVe, Foaming Facial Cleanser, For Normal to Oily Skin is another addon. 

 

 

Can you say a bit more about what that combination does?

[Peatson]

Can you say a bit more about what that combination does?

 

Yes of course.

 

Firstly, I used to visit a dermatologist who recommended Jarrow for Hyaluronic acid stating that it is the only brand he has found to work so incredibly well with bioavailability. In addition, to reap actual benefits from it, you should be taking between 5 to as much as 10 a day, sounds a lot but trust me after just a few days your skin has very clear noticeable differences - feeling like baby skin. Hyaluronic acid works by internally moisturising the skin and has been evidenced many times over the past couple of decades - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3970829/

 

Astaxanthin is a natural UV protector and is found in species of fish, Salmonids. As an incredibly powerful antioxidant, Astaxanthin works by protecting our UV-induced skin deterioration i.e. sunlight, which is also of course needed at the same time to maintain healthy natural vitamin D levels, I do not recommend hiding from the sun! So instead, I use 10mg Astaxanthin which is powerful enough to see the benefits, after a month of use you should notice a slight carroty colour develop over your skin, providing a nice tone. It also lightens dark spots. To find more, please see the clinical evidence here - https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/32202443

 

Melotonin I mainly use to help regulate my sleep and therefore I take 30 minutes before sleeping. While Melotonin provides a variety of nice benefits, for skin it can make it appear darker whereby reacting with pigmentation. Find more here - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3583885/

 

Altirent C is a branded liposomal Vitamin C product which has proven high-bioavailability. Vitamin C also helps create collagen within the body and is internally understood unlike swallowing actual collagen which has been shown not to work. https://lpi.oregonst...ealth/vitamin-C

 

Saunas help remove external toxins and open the pores clearing out dirty skin, take a cold shower immediately after to clear off the debris (use a scrub pad). 

 

 

Following this regime I an assure you after 2-3 months, you will see a major difference. Just remember to keep it up daily! 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edited by Peatson, 21 April 2020 - 06:06 PM.

[bosharpe]

Yes of course.

 

Firstly, I used to visit a dermatologist who recommended Jarrow for Hyaluronic acid stating that it is the only brand he has found to work so incredibly well with bioavailability. In addition, to reap actual benefits from it, you should be taking between 5 to as much as 10 a day, sounds a lot but trust me after just a few days your skin has very clear noticeable differences - feeling like baby skin. Hyaluronic acid works by internally moisturising the skin and has been evidenced many times over the past couple of decades - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3970829/

 

Astaxanthin is a natural UV protector and is found in species of fish, Salmonids. As an incredibly powerful antioxidant, Astaxanthin works by protecting our UV-induced skin deterioration i.e. sunlight, which is also of course needed at the same time to maintain healthy natural vitamin D levels, I do not recommend hiding from the sun! So instead, I use 10mg Astaxanthin which is powerful enough to see the benefits, after a month of use you should notice a slight carroty colour develop over your skin, providing a nice tone. It also lightens dark spots. To find more, please see the clinical evidence here - https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/32202443

 

Melotonin I mainly use to help regulate my sleep and therefore I take 30 minutes before sleeping. While Melotonin provides a variety of nice benefits, for skin it can make it appear darker whereby reacting with pigmentation. Find more here - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3583885/

 

Altirent C is a branded liposomal Vitamin C product which has proven high-bioavailability. Vitamin C also helps create collagen within the body and is internally understood unlike swallowing actual collagen which has been shown not to work. https://lpi.oregonst...ealth/vitamin-C

 

Saunas help remove external toxins and open the pores clearing out dirty skin, take a cold shower immediately after to clear off the debris (use a scrub pad). 

 

 

Following this regime I an assure you after 2-3 months, you will see a major difference. Just remember to keep it up daily! 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Oh great! More money I've got to spend. Thanks for the good info. I use to use J's HA year ago after it was mentioned on this forum. I can't say I noticed a difference but maybe I'll give it another go. I've been thinking about Liposomal C for a while and experimenting making my own too. There are cheaper brands out there that do Lipo Vit C too. Altrient is a bit pricey. 

[Zaul]

Ingestion of Collagen Hydrolysates Alleviates Skin Chronological Aging in an Aged Mouse Model by Increasing Collagen Synthesis

 

 

Although the use of collagen hydrolysates (CHs) as nutraceutical agents to protect skin against photoaging has been widely investigated, little is known about their effects on skin chronological aging and the underlying mechanism. Nutritional supplementation, such as collagen and related hydrolysates, might have beneficial effects on chronologically aged skin just as on photoaged skin. Hence, 13-month-old female Kunming mice ingested CHs for eight weeks to evaluate the effects of CHs on ameliorating skin chronological aging. CHs were enzymatically prepared using alcalase or collagenase, named ACH and CCH, respectively. The results showed that CHs or proline intake had no obvious effects on skin moisture and hyaluronic acid contents. However, ACHs significantly decreased skin laxity, increased collagen I content, normalized the ratio of collagen I/III and repaired dermal collagen fibers in a dose-dependent manner. At an identical dose, ACH showed an advantage over CCH or proline in significantly increasing collagen I content. Further study indicated that CHs mainly improved skin condition by activating the transforming growth factor β (TGF-β)/Smad signaling pathway to promote the synthesis of collagen I rather than inhibiting collagen I degradation by deregulating activator protein-1 (AP-1). The results indicated that CHs could benefit skin in both extrinsic and intrinsic aging as active dietary supplements.

 

Edited by Nigeria Custom Officer, 22 June 2020 - 06:58 PM.