17 replies to this topic

[bacchus26]

I was just wondering if there were any healthy supplements out there than can help metabolize into serotonin, kind of like how DLPA provides precursors for L-dopa, etc.

Something like this would be very helpful after a saturday night of heavy drinking to avoid the old "sunday downs".

On a similar vein I noticed that my ex would often get seriously depressed the next day after taking benzos. Man those are some bad stuff. Anyone have any similar experiences?

Many thanks...

[superpooper]

Yes 5-HTP. There are also a few websites that sell L-Tryptophan.

[Pablo M]

5-HTP is probably not a good choice. Search sci.life.extension for Steven Harris' posts on the subject.

[purerealm]

this has been discussed in the forum already, 5-htp should be safe

[Pablo M]

I don't think that that was the consensus.

[systemicanomaly]

5-HTP is probably not a good choice. Search sci.life.extension for Steven Harris' posts on the subject.

Unaware of any problems with 5-HTP. Where is this sci.life.extension you speak of?

[ajnast4r]

the problem is, if you are taking b6 in supplement form (which everyone is)... 5-htp will be turned into serotonin OUTSIDE(mostly) of the brain as well as inside... 5-htp does not cross the blood brain barrier. the consensus is this is will most likely cause long term adverse health effects, especially on the heart valves.

once in a while use is not a problem, but as far as long term... unless you are poor AND depression is debilitating you... stay away.


tryptophan is the dietary amino acid that turns into 5htp(which turns into serotonin)... much safer, and just as effective. slightly more expensive, but you can find pharmeceutical tryptophan pretty cheap now.

doctors best brand assays around 98% purity, and is very cheap... FTH nutraceuticals (the brand ive used and trust) assays nearly 100% pure, but is VERY expensive.

take the tryptophan 2 hours after or 1 hour before a meal... on an empty stomach, with a b complex washed down with orange juice. the b vitamins, and the vitamin C and sugar in the orange juice assure the tryptophan will convert to serotonin adequatley, so thats very important.

taking it in the morning ensures adequate serotonin production, taking it at night ensures adequate melotonin production...

[bacchus26]

ajnast4r, that's some awesome info. thanks!

yes, I'm taking a multi-vitamin with b-complex in it so I might want to be careful with anything that doesn't play nice with that. I'll look into acquiring tryptophan. I'm also a big fan of FTH nutraceuticals, btw. When I get my DLPA I'll probably go through them as well.

[Pablo M]

Ajnast pretty much summed up Steve Harris' info. You can search on lef.org for an article about this issue-- LEF does not sell 5-HTP for this very reason.

A better option might be an SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, etc), although if you're using it to recover from a night of binge drinking then the LEF protocol on "Alcohol-Induced Hangover, Prevention" might be more up your alley.

[kenj]

the problem is, if you are taking b6 in supplement form (which everyone is)... 5-htp will be turned into serotonin OUTSIDE(mostly) of the brain as well as inside... 5-htp does not cross the blood brain barrier. the consensus is this is will most likely cause long term adverse health effects, especially on the heart valves.

The quoted study 1 done in children suffering from migraine headaches actually measuring blood serotonin levels shows there is no significant increase when given 5-HTP. Serotonin serum mcg/L in subjects was 100.5 before the study and 108.3 after.

5-HTP DOES cross the BBB and more effective than Tryptophan 2. I cannot relate to this "consensus" after having read Harris' article. It is disturbing though that LEF, the Mayo Clinic and many knowledgeable people do not have CLEAR answers on this one.

Interictal serum levels of serotonin and plasma and mononuclear cell concentrations of beta-endorphin were measured in 20 juvenile patients (13 suffering from migraine without aura and 7 from episodic tension-type headache) before and after 3 months of L-5-hydroxytryptophan treatment (5 mg/kg/day) and compared with a control group of 17 headache-free healthy subjects. While no significant differences in serum serotonin levels emerged between the three groups (migraine 104.6 +/- 26 micrograms/L, tension-type headache 90.7 +/- 26.2 micrograms/L, controls 96 +/- 32.9 micrograms/L), significantly lower plasma and mononuclear cell concentrations of beta-endorphin were found in both patient groups by comparison with the healthy controls (beta-endorphin in plasma: migraine sufferers 16.2 +/- 4.2 pmol/L [P < 0.05], tension-type headache subjects 14.5 +/- 1.7 pmol/L [P < 0.001] vs controls 21.3 +/- 4.6 pmol/L and respectively, beta-endorphin in mononuclear cells: migraine sufferers 110.5 +/- 16.4 pmol/10(6) GB/L [P < 0.001], tension-type headache subjects 142.3 +/- 22.7 pmol/10(6) GB/L [P < 0.001] vs controls 359.3 +/- 31.6 pmol/10(6) GB/L). No differences emerged between the two clinical forms of headache for the plasma and mononuclear cell concentrations of beta-endorphin. After L-5-hydroxytryptophan treatment, serum serotonin and both plasma and mononuclear cell beta-endorphin levels tended to be higher, though not significantly so, than prior to treatment, and the clinical score (frequency x intensity of headache attacks) was significantly lower in both headache groups than at the baseline. This study supports the theory that opiate analgesic system function is abnormally low in juvenile primary headache as in adults, and confirms that administering serotoninergic precursor drugs increases beta-endorphin, even in the peripheral blood, and may favorably affect clinical symptoms.

1 Battistella PA, et al.:Beta-endorphin in plasma and monocytes in juvenile headache. Headache 36:91-4, 1996

2 I. E. Magnussen and F. Nielsen-Kudsk, "Bioavailability and related pharmacokinetics in man of orally administered L-5-hydroxytryptophan in a steady state," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 46 (1980); I Magnussen et al., "Plasma accumulation and metabolism of orally administered singledose L-5-hydroxytryptophan in man," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 49 (1981); R. Brown, "Tryptophan metabolism in humans," in O. Hayaishi, Y. Ishimura and R. Kido, eds., Biochemical and Medical aspects of Tryptophan Metabolism (Amsterdam: Elsevier/North Holland Press, 1980).

[opales]

the consensus is this is will most likely cause long term adverse health effects, especially on the heart valves.

I don't think there is consensus per se in terms of having published articles on the subject (other than the rants by Harris in the Internet), however, the argument is pretty straightforward and rather compelling to me.

5-HTP IS KNOWN to raise serotonin levels also outside brain (in contrast to SSRIs). Raised serotonin outside brain IS KNOWN to cause heart valve damage.

The fact that there is not actual studies showing 5-HTP causing heart valve damage is most likely due short duration of studies and lack of follow-up, as it is only a neutraceutical and not a patented, approved drug.

[pdoz]

I've heard Harris' exact argument voiced by molecular biologists and chemists. I avoided 5-HTP for a long time because of that, and then finally tried it because tryptophan didn't seem to be doing enough for me. It worked well but lost effectiveness very quickly.

I'm wondering if a 50 mg sublingual 5-htp/coenzymated b6 tablet (Carlson makes one) would bypass this problem by bypassing the stomach.

Is it a matter of serotonin in the peripherals period, or is it a matter of the 5-htp converting to serotonin in the stomach and then flooding the peripheral system with serotonin? Beause if it's the latter (which is what I believe I've heard and read in the past) taking a sublingual supplement might work. And with the 5-HTP getting into the blood that fast I wonder if the peripheral matter is really a problem...it's not like it's serotonin yet when it hits the carotid artery.

I actually just experimented with throwing together the contents of a 50mg pharm-grade 5-htp cap, a coenzymated b-6 tab, some vit. C powder, and pomegranate syrup for carbohydrate action and slopped that under my tongue, making a big effort not to swallow. I'm buzzed and it didn't take long. I'm sorta unpleasantly buzzed, so maybe 50mg is too much at once by this method. Ray Sahelian's site seems to suggest this.

Maybe the higher doses people take of 5-HTP are only working because they lose a significant amount of serotonin into the peripheral system.

I really feel too buzzed just from 50mg under the tongue! Not like MDMA or anything, just...up and jittery.

[pdoz]

Ahhh, just a few minutes after posting that I can feel the melatonin kicking in. Nice.

[opales]

Is it a matter of serotonin in the peripherals period, or is it a matter of the 5-htp converting to serotonin in the stomach and then flooding the peripheral system with serotonin? Beause if it's the latter (which is what I believe I've heard and read in the past) taking a sublingual supplement might work. And with the 5-HTP getting into the blood that fast I wonder if the peripheral matter is really a problem...it's not like it's serotonin yet when it hits the carotid artery.

Or.. you could just take some as selective as possible SSRI, like citalopram and leave the guesswork out.

[kenj]

Or.. you could just take some as selective as possible SSRI, like citalopram and leave the guesswork out.

I'd hate sounding like a tape recorder but if you're on a SSRI prescribed by a doctor for treatment of depression, anxiety etc. you really should discuss with him/her reducing the dose gradually and eventually Quit and seek other options (for example 5-HTP).
First of all, the commonly known "side-effects" possibly experienced when starting an SSRI up are not "sideish" at all but are due to a direct effect caused by the drugs' inhibition of the gastrointestinal serotonin uptake.
You can mask this vital mess up in your gut (nausea, diarrhoea, constipation) as essential and common "side-effects" if you are a drug maker but if you're dependent on an SSRI yourself you might want to take a look on Jing-Xian Chen, Hui Pan, Paul Wade And Michael Gershons findings (1998) that suggest the long-term administration of the drug(s) will cause ones gut to lose its ability to respond to stimuli that are sensed by serotonin (95% of serotonin in the body is found in the gut, - see the consequence of this).
No wonder millions and millions of people suffer from IBS.

[pdoz]

Some of those issues are exactly why I'm pursuing a different path with serotonergics. I'm not familiar with inhibition of gastronintestinal uptake or the exact (as far as the pharmaceuticals know) mechanisms of action of SSRIs, I just want to avoid the side-effects, the variability of effect, the long-term changes in chemistry. I've been toughing out a terrible depression and have thought about SSRIs regularly in my lowest moments, waiting to get on a good dose of lamotrigine before examining adjunct antidepressants. But I don't want to get flat, pack on weight, lose libido, lose motivation, etc.

Because of the difficulty of getting proper tryptophan though diet, I think supplementation is a good way to go. Some of the literature I've read suggests supplementation only until you feel a signigicant improvement, then cutting back to see if your system is somewhat restored and capable of functioning without all the supplementation. I imagine you really need to make sure you're getting tryptophan and b-6 in blood/brain barrier forms through diet if you want to cut out supplementation.

Orthomolecular, is b-6 supplementation proper for correcting that imbalance, and is it long term? I'm not that well-read on Bs; one book I checked out at the health-food store yesterday actually suggested a regular B supplement but NOT one of the high-dose ones. This was either for depression or bipolar. I actually cut out the B-50/B-100-type supplements and scaled down to a lower-dose multi-B, adding coenzymated B6 (p-5-p or something like that)? to take alongside aminos on an empty stomach.

After considering the possible benefits of sublingual 5-HTP I actually chewed up the b6 tablet and kept it under my tongue. Not the best taste, but the effects of the combo I mentioned above were fast.

[PeriPhysis]

Hi besides 5-HTP and L-Tryptophan, you can always try St. Johns Wort(aka Hypericum) but it isnt a serotonin percursor but rather a MAO Inhibitor.
I've found an abstract of some trial in wich they concluded that "In the treatment of moderate to severe major depression, hypericum extract WS 5570 is at least as effective as paroxetine and is better tolerated" .
But being Hypericum a MAO Inhibitor I dont know if is safe to take it in clinical dosages without some changing in diet.

Abstract

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