119 replies to this topic

[Christian]

Hey all.

On a recommendation from BJKlein I decided to start my own thread on my views on Christianity.

I am a Christian (protestant I believe is the term for my views) and have been for as long as I can remember. In fact, my earliest memory is asking Jesus into my heart and becoming a Christian.

I want to show my views to other people but I'm not very good at communicating so if you have any questions for me I'd really like it if you would post them. Just so I can get a view of how a non-Christian thinks.

I will do my best to answer all questions but I'm still only a teenager and don't have much scientific knowledge in this field so most if not all of my posts will be entirely personal opinion.

To start off with I guess I will describe why I decided to become an Immortalist. It was very recent actually, no more than a couple of months ago. I'm at that point in school where teachers are pressuring kids to think about their future. Up until this point I'd basically taken things as they come and made few plans for the future. I decided to just sit down and make a basic outline for what I wanted to do in life. As my ideas piled up I realized not all of them could be achieved in one lifetime and that many of them could not be achieved with the current level of technology. Then it hit me, why not become immortal (or at least extremely long lived). If I did I would be able to achieve far more of my dreams than I could if I just lived out my normal life. With that in mind I starterd considering the best way to become immortal and how I could work towards it (in retrospect, I made that decision very quickly considering how much of a life altering decision it is but more on that later). After surfing the Net for a while I came upon Immortality Institute and I began to realize just what I had gotten myself into. Reading a few posts on Nonotecnology and genetic research opened my eyes to a whole new world I had never seen before. Reading a few posts on religious debates opened my eyes a whole lot more and then it hit me (this is the later part) this was more than just a possibility for my future, this was a divine calling. My life, my past, my skills, my beliefs, all were perfect for this goal. To bring Christianity into a new era of humanity. (I'm sorry if that sounded cheezy but there is really no other way to describe it but a revelation. It really did seem to make all my unusual quirks have a meaning and put a purpose in my life). And so here I am.

This concludes the brief history lesson into my life. I hope it was at least partially informative. It is not the whole story to my becoming an Immortalist but it does contain all the critical parts and it is totally true. Now that it is over I'm out of ideas to write about so please send in some questions.

Talk to ya later
Christian

[Bruce Klein]

Christian, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. All insight into your thinking is greatly appreciated. Many of us are brave in that we're willing to let others into our minds, and thus we learn and help each other much more with honest feedback. You said:

As my ideas piled up I realized not all of them could be achieved in one lifetime and that many of them could not be achieved with the current level of technology. Then it hit me, why not become immortal (or at least extremely long lived).

Do you ever think there will come a time when you'll say, ok this is enough, I want to die? And if so, what will prompt this decision do you think... and if not.. what will this mean for your religious faith? Thanks! - BJK

[Christian]

BJKlein

My views and emotions are ever changing so I can't say for sure that I will never want to die but I find it extremely unlikely.

Rather I believe that I will die sometime. Be it from war, famine, disease, the apocolypse or just the universe ending there are too many ways to die for me to honestly believe that I will overcome them all. I'm just planning to live my life as best I can, and for as long as I can, until that end comes.

What this means for my faith? Well, I can't really say. All I know is that God is with me in this. Again only time will tell what happens but I'm sure that my faith in God will never cease.

[Bruce Klein]

Christian, Thanks for the answer.

On a similar note, I also don't consider an time when I'll ever 'want' to die. As a matter of fact, I plan on overcoming the current risks associated with living inside a biological body by upgrading my current flesh to something more robust and durable... likely a silicon based substrate.. i.e. transhumanism.. while this will not totally protect me from all environmental and existential risks... it will be many orders of magnitude safer than my current water/bio based existence.

Would you change your body…. augmenting it.. 'improving' it and eventually uploading your mind to a new substrate.. if you knew this could add more years?

[Christian]

BJKlein

I definitely want to upgrade my current body. One of my goals in life is to be able to survive in hazardous environments (ie underwater, in space, extreme cold, etc) without being contained in some stuffy suit for protection. I want to be able to see the universe in it's full glory and not just from behind a window. Obviously I'll need a body more durable than my current one for this.

I believe this is okay by my faith (my body is a temple so I should try to improve it) so I have no real moral concerns over this.

As to what I'd want to improve it to. Right now I'm thinking that, if the technology becomes available I'd slowly improve my body with nanotechnology until I'm more tech than flesh. Considering the possibilities I find the current human organs respiratory, circulatory, digestive, etc really inefficient compared to what nanotechnology could probably do. And the thought of skin made of self regenerating diamond (through interlocking diamond nanomachines capable of making copies of themselves) seems oddly appealing. But then, I am really wierd [wacko] . I was really wondering for a while if changing my body this much would be okay with god (and I still am a bit) but it doesn't feel inherently "wrong" to me so I figure it's okay. (I find the Bible a bit confusing at times and pastors rarely talk about this kind of thing so I often look for God's opinion by seriously considering something and seeing if it feels right or wrong, I'ts not a perfect system but nothing in this world is.)

Uploading my mind (ie to a computer or somesuch) I have no real interest in for several reasons. The first is religious, my body was a gift to me from god and I may change it a little but I don't want to abandon it. The next is more cautious, if my mind is a computer program then what's stopping someone from putting a virus into me. The third is practical, I've spent a lifetime learning how to control a humanoid form and it's my brains default setting. The fourth is the desire to remain unique, no other copies of my brain or people who are just like me.

As I've said before my ideas are ever changing so at some point in the future I may want to upload myself but I really can't see it happening.

[Christian]

My last couple of posts haven't really been on the topic of my faith so I thought I'd add something that came to mind recently. I've read a post a while back on these forums (can't remember where) where someone essentially said 'if christians look forward to heaven so much, shouldn't they be eager to die. When I was thinking about this, a good way to describe it came to mind.

Suppose you have a good life right now. You have a steady job that you, for the most part, enjoy. You have a wife/husband and a kid or to. You have a nice little suburban house with good neighbours and all the modern conviences of life. Things could be better or they could be worse but for the most part you're happy.

Suddenly you get the option to move. You have no idea where your moving to, you know that it will better than the home you have right now but you don't know how. You have no idea what the people, customs, or conviences of life are like there. Also, if you move there, you have to leave everything behind, even your family. I'f your not sure you want to move there yet, don't worry, there is no time limit for the move you can leave whenever you want.

Now, would you really just give up everything and go to this place? Some people would, and some Christians do look forward to death. But the rest of us are quite happy continuing our lives here knowing we have Heaven waiting for us when we do die.

Also,for me at least, is the desire to help out this world before we leave. This world still has a lot of problems and if I can do something to help it out, I will. Even if this is nothing more than showing a few people what Christians are like and opening a few minds.

Yet another reason I want to stay in this world is because I want to become something great, and then say that I did it with my own two hands. I have no idea what heaven is like or what I'll be like when I'm there but I know what I can do here and now and I want to do it. I want to see just how far we humans can come on our own.

Thanks for reading
Christian

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks again for letting us know your thoughts.. It's very refreshing to hear your ideas.

You're not alone in wanting a diamond plated body... although you'd probably not need to have a system of self regeneration as diamonds wouldn't require shedding or replacement.. but I know what you mean.. It's a sexy idea to feel protected behind a shield diamond.. I wouldn't mind having this ability myself.

But more importantly, uploading is the real key.. our atoms are cycled and replaced completely on average about once every seven years... this is a great proof of concept that we can upgrade our bodies and thus our minds to a new substrate.. to a silicon or diamond substrate..

the term uploading may sound a little harsh or computerish.. so maybe calling it mind augmentation to a more robust platform would be a better term... but at any rate.. if this becomes possible.. we'll very likely have the power to rewire/rewrite our minds.. recoding our intelligence.... eventually becoming millions of times 'smarter' than we are now... I do believe that when we reach this point we'll look back at death and religion as something barbaric, chaotic, and sad.

We may find it hard to contemplate now.. but if you think about it.. our ancestors were single celled creatures.. with limited intelligence.. and they certainly made the leap.. and we will as well..

Which brings me to another question.. do you agree with evolution? Thanks

[Bruce Klein]

Also.. I was wondering, do you associate an image to your 'God' or is it more of a concept.. for instance, when you pray.. I'm assuming you pray.. do you pray to a mental image of a fatherly figure? Thanks

[Mind]

I was really wondering for a while if changing my body this much would be okay with god (and I still am a bit) but it doesn't feel inherently "wrong" to me so I figure it's okay. (I find the Bible a bit confusing at times and pastors rarely talk about this kind of thing so I often look for God's opinion by seriously considering something and seeing if it feels right or wrong,

You are right...the bible does not say anything about changing your body. There is no commandment against it, so why not. Also, Pastors hardly ever talk about "new" things. That is why I find it hard to attend church. When I was young and heard the bible stories I thought they were interesting. When I was a teenager I listened to the same stories but also had the mental maturity to apply the lessons to my life and try to make sense of religion. Now years later...when I attend church, I hear the same stories...again...again...again...and again. Whats the point, I learned the lessons years ago.

[Christian]

BJKlein

I like the idea of mind augmentation but I think I have a different view of it than you do. Instead of rewriting my mind I want to link it to a computer. Using the computer as a second mind and a memory storage place and then maybe the two would eventually merge into one biological/silicon hybrid.

The idea of mind augmentation is a very delicate one to me. While my body is just a tool and a vessel, my mind is what makes me me. It is my core, the true me. Nothing scares more than the thought of someone tampering with my mind (when I first heard of lobotomys, I was horrified that people could actually do that to each other, and did.) On the other hand I can't remember how many times I, as a high school student, wished I had a computer's memory capabilities. So in the end, I want a bit of both worlds. I want my mind to be a bit better, but I still want it to be my mind.

Evolution? No, I don't believe in it. I've never had a reason to. The choice between Creation and evolution is basically just a choice between two possible, but unlikely, scenarios for why we exist. I believe in God and God said Creation happened so I belive in Creation. Besides, saying that your just a random chance that was never meant to happen doesn't make you feel very special.

I basically see God as a third parent. He is an invisible person who nows everything about me, but likes me anyways. He is my second father who loves me unconditionally and is always there for me. When I pray I simply talk to Him. Telling Him how my day went, about my hopes and fears, and apologizing for my mistakes. I ask Him for help the way you would ask a parent for some money for the movies. And yet I don't have an image of God as a person, when I imagine Him I imagine me surrounded by pitch black with a single ray of light shining on me. (I never thought about it before but this is the way I always see God when I'm praying, I never visualize him as an actual person).

Mind

Indeed, I've noticed the same thing about church recently. When I was considering why this came to me.

One of the problems most people (including other Christians) seem to have with Christianity is they think it's nothing but rules. The ten Commandments, the laws of Moses, the seven deadly sins, Etc... The're all nothing but a bunch of does and don'ts, haves and have nots. They think there is nothing nice or fun about Christianity.

This couldn't be further from the truth. If you read the Bible you will notice that Jesus Christ himself gave people only two rules. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and spirit. And love your neighbour as yourself. If you obey these two rules, everything else comes naturally. The whole Bible and all those church sermons boil down to these two rules.

Well if this is the case then how come you aren't just told this when you become a Christian? Why must you go to church and read the Bible and do all these other things as well?

It's because, as simple as these two rules are, they are almost impossible to follow. Is it really so easy to love God so much that if he told you to give your car to that poor guy on the street, you'd do it without question? Is it really so easy to love the man that killed your son and raped your wife and daughter? No, these two commands are the most difficult rules you will ever come across.

This is what church and the Bible are for. By showing you stories and giving you other, easier, rules to follow, they start you down the road to true Christianity and help you keep your way.

But that is all church and the Bible are there for, a starter and a help. It is not there to take you by the hand and guide you right to God, you have to find him by yourself. If all you do is sit and listen, and never try to become a real Christian, There is nothing more they can do for you. This is why you never got anything new out of church.

Sadly, it seems that very few people notice this. Instead they try to get to heaven by doing good deeds and obeying all the rules. Exactly what Jesus said NOT to do. This is probably why many people see Christians as rule givers and judgemental, much like we see the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time. I only hope more people see the truth.

Please understand that this is my view only. I'm sure my church would't agree. But I try my hardest to live my life by those two rules and it has worked wonderfully for me so far. I do sometimes stumble and fall but I know God is always there for me and I can always try again. I just have to make sure I don't let the guilt keep me down.

Hope this helps
Christian

(Boy this is really insightful, even for me. I may just have to give a copy to my pastor and see what he thinks of this).

[Bruce Klein]

I believe in God and God said Creation happened

Please don’t think I’m trying to be belligerent here... but what if I said "My dog can fly!" You'd probably be interested to know how he could do this, right? Well, this is basically where I'd like to go with the 'creation' hypothesis... where is the evidence?

All things point toward evolution... and nothing substantiated to the creation ideas exists except for a 2,000 year old story.

Anyway.. more importantly, let's look at some evidence for why we as humans we have this tendency toward believing there is god/religion. I read where you say "While my body is just a tool and a vessel, my mind is what makes me me" Therefore, you may be interested in looking at the following information... it may be helpful in understanding why we think the way we do about 'god' and religion.

An excellent book exploring the 'why' of religion in humans... You may wish to give the book a look over and a fair chance before dismissing it offhand.

1. Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief
Over the centuries, theories have abounded as to why human beings have a seemingly irrational attraction to God and religious experiences. In Why God Won't Go Away authors Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., and Vince Rause offer a startlingly simple, yet scientifically plausible opinion: humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so.
http://www.amazon.co...2656266-3164849


Brain research is underway to understanding what happens when we feel the presence of religion or god. You can read this online now....

2. Spirituality and the Brain
Believers from every tradition and around the world have reported similar sensations of religious experience — a feeling of completeness, absence of self, or oneness with the universe, feelings of peace, freedom from fear, ecstatic joy, visions of a Supreme Being.
http://abcnews.go.co...it_feature.html


You said "I basically see God as a third parent."

I know you'll probably dismiss the ideas.. but could you maybe give the above ideas a small chance.. I mean, do the above ideas about religion being a product of the mind and human evolution stand a chance at all of holding up to your current religious 'faith' ideas...? You seem to be very intelligent.. and somewhat open.. I hope you take this an opportunity to explore a new world.. heh.. I sound like a salesman.. jeez I’ll stop now.

[Bruce Klein]

http://white.stanfor.../Worksheet1.htm

P: superior parietal lobe :: In the surprisingly titled _Why God Won't Go Away_ Ballantine Books) by Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquilli, M.D., and Vince Rause, we get a fascinating scientific answer to the title question, and a review of the current scientific understanding of the roots of belief. The authors have done research by means of brain scans on those who are having mystical or religious experiences. The brain scans show that something is going on among the neurons that doesn't happen at other times. Most of the scans described in the authors' research show an increase in activity in the posterior superior parietal lobe, an area just behind the top of the head.

The authors explain that the gene-driven wiring of the brain to encourage religious beliefs exists because it has been evolutionarily good for us. Stimulating the OAA or the autonomic nervous system can produce calm and a sense of well-being which may be not only pleasant but physically beneficial. Beliefs driven by neurology could reinforce themselves by building myths, encouraging ritual, uniting societies and providing social support from fellow believers. They can check worry about eventual annihilation. They can provide a feeling of control.

Those of a religious bent will find matter to argue with inside these pages, even though the authors are very careful not to argue for or against the existence of deities, only that "the neurological aspects of spiritual experience support the sense of the realness of God." Some may also find disconcerting the idea that ecstasy of religious mysticism may have its roots in the structures that bring on orgasm. Others will find the practical answer to the title's question just too pragmatic and pat, but given the extraordinary research as it now stands, it is the best that science can do as it begins to look into religious feeling: "What we know beyond question is that the mind is essentially a machine designed to solve the riddles of existence, and as long as our brains are wired as they are, God will not go away." This book is a wonderful introduction into this fascinating research.

http://www.amazon.co...2656266-3164849

[Christian]

BJKlein

That quote on my belief in Creation was taken a bit out of context. The sentence before it, the one about both Creation and evolution being possible, but unlikely, scenarios is a better view of my opinion on these topics. The truth is, I could barely care how the universe began and got to it's present state. The fact that the universe is this way and that I exist is what matters to me.

But because you asked so nicely I'll try to explain why I believe in Creation with a bit more of a logical viewpoint. You said that all the evidence points towards Evolution. This may be true. But there is also very little evidence and that which we have probably isn't totally acurrate either. Also, the statistical chance of evolution happening in such as way as to make self-sentient, living creatures is insane. We don't have a number small enough to begin to describe it. This doesn't mean that evolution is impossible, just very unlikely. It's like saying that your dog can fly because you've found an old, blurry photo of a flying, canine shaped creature in your attic.

In other words, there's just not enough reason to believe in it.

Creation, on the other hand, is in much the same boat. During all my years as a Christian, I've yet to hear good evidence as to why Creation is true. Even all of the Creation versus evolution debates I've heard focus on why evolution is wrong, not why Creation is right. So Creation has no evidence for it but it also has no evidence against it. It is entirely possible that an intelligent being could take something (matter/antimatter pehaps? I really don't know what God made the universe with. Which is probably why He's God and I'm not) and shape new forms out of it. Giving some of those forms intelligence. we are almost capable of doing the same with computer programs and we are still far less then what God is. Even if you don't believe in the Divine it would make sense if God was a superintelligent, highly-advanced alien.

Still, even with the possibility, there is no reason to believe this is how the universe began except for the lack of a better alternative.

So I'm given the choice between the possible, and unlikey or the possible, and unproven. I merely chose the one that fits best with my lifestyle.

In the end, though, I don't really care about it either way and I'm unlikely to care until we can come up with better evidence than what we have now. I'm much more interested in ensuring my future than debating my past. If you want better arguments than this then I'm afraid you'll have to find them elsewhere, sorry.

One final note. At the moment I do dismiss evolution out of hand but it may not always be so. In an earlier post I said that Christianity is, to me, the two rules. Love God, and love your neighbour. If evolution is proven to be true I will believe in evolution (albiet in a slightly different way then you do, I'll still believe that it was guided by God and take my very existance as proof) and continue to follow the two rules. If you think that evolution won't work with Christianity remember that it caused a religous uproar when they found out Earth wasn't the centre of the universe and yet today people don't give it a second thought. It could be this way with evolution as well ( I think it actually is for some Christian scientist and theologans, just not with Christians as a whole).

Hope this didn't sound too confusing


As to the Brain research stuff. It doesn't really surprise me. why would God make all the rules of the universe if he was just going to ignore them all the time. The fact that I felt the presence of God doesn't change just because it can be explained by science. Indeed it should raise more questions. Why did my brain act that way at that very moment? If it is because I was pprogrammed to do so then how do you know that it was evolution that programmed that into me and not God? People seem to think that science and religion are conflicting but it is when you embrace the two as parts of a whole that you begin to understand the universe. I begin to think that everything in religion can be explained by science and that everything in science can be explained by religion, just as long as you are open to both.

Again I hope this wasn't too confusing. It is difficult to put my thoughts into words that others can understand. But I try.
Christian

[Mind]

Thanks for all your thoughts Christian. It is nice to hear your view (kind-of from the other side) on longevitiy and religion. Please continue to contribute.

[Christian]

Mind, I take it from your kind of from the other side remark that I'm not what you consider the average Christian?

Good. That's the whole point of this thread. I started this so you could get a look at real Christianity. Not the church and rules and heaven and hell but a one-on-one relationship with God. I want to show you what it's like to believe in something that is greater than yourself yet still personally cares for you.

On a mildly related note.
I was out for a walk tonight when, for no real reason, I decided to lie down in the park and stare at the stars. While I was doing this I was thinking about my life and my dreams. I've been considering my future pretty much all the time since I decided to become immortal and it was starting to wear me out so I decided to take a break while I was sitting there. Instead I simply thought about God and eventually nothing at all. It was really relaxing to just sit there for half an hour and think about nothing. No worries about school or jobs, no grand plans for my future, no deep life-shattering questions. I just sat there and enjoyed the beauty of nature all around me. When I finally did get up I was a lot more refreshed and ready to continue with my life. It occurs to me that often we get to worked up about what is happening or what will to take a break and cool down, something we still need to do. So if your feeling stressed or worn out and the weather outside is nice I advise you to go outside, find a nice spot on the grass, sit down, and let your mind take a break. Trust me, it will really help.

I remember the last time I did this a couple of months ago. While I was sitting there I suddenly realized the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. I just wish I could remember what it was [blush] . Often the answers to our questions come when we stop thinking about them. Just another reason to sit back and take a break.

It appears I'm having some communicating problems tonight, hope this post wasn't too confusing.
Christian

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks for the suggestion... I also find it refreshing to shut down, chill out, and lay around the grass.. the smell of moist dirt and a warm spring breeze are wonderful... we've certainly evolved acclimations toward the natural world.. yet, we've also adapted amazingly fast to the ultra efficient world of cubicles and elevators... I predict our future interior environments may start to reflect this evolutionary bent toward the natural....as cost become negligible, we may see more effort put into making the work and home environment more akin to our paleo ancestral savannah environs.. I suspect we'll see more interior adornments that reflect this natural world.. running water.. plants.. etc.

[galtsgulch]

Christian;

I appreciate the fact that you've taken the time to explain about your beliefs. I would hope you will indulge my short story as well.

I grew up as a typical middle-class American - went to Sunday school and even bible camp in the summers. When I was a young teenager, two of my aunts died and I thought it was so strange that everyone prayed during their illness, and yet when they died, just said "God must have other plans for them." Being somewhat of a science-nerd, I thought this was a really lame explanation, and wondered what good it did to be religious and pray if the ones you loved were just going to die anyway. I also read a lot of American history, and kept finding over and over again that the people I admired were Deists, rather than Christians. In contrast, the history of the Puritans (of Mayflower fame) totally repulsed me because of their tyrannical, dogmatic, socialist philosophy. I was also starting to read a lot of world history, and among other things was repulsed by the idea that according to Christian doctrine most of the world would not go to heaven (some Christians would go so far as to condemn them to hell), even though their only sin was to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time... Again, this seemed terribly lame. One thing that I realized was that many of the religions had very similar principles, yet some had the more realistic (Deistic) view that IF there was a God, it had nothing to do with us once the ball got rolling… During college, I came across George Smith’s Atheism: The Case Against God, and later Ayn Rand’s Fountainhead & Atlas Shrugged. Finally, I also read Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark. I left college a hard-core atheist & Objectivist (the philosophy of Ayn Rand), and have never turned back. I eventually went to law school and became a lawyer. Since then, I have remained an Objectivist, and recently a Transhumanist (of the Extropian ilk). I am signed up for cryonic suspension with Alcor, but I hope medical science will advance fast enough so that I won’t need it J except for an accidental death.

I have discussed my atheism with a number of people, and they frequently argue that without God, there is no basis for morality. Ayn Rand proved this to be untrue. I personally live my the following three rules: “treat others the way you’d like to be treated;” “do everything you’ve agreed to,” and “don’t infringe on the rights/property of others.” (rule #1 really subsumes #2 & 3, but I like to have them stated explicitly anyway). I personally don’t think any moral code needs more than this. I live as close to this code as I think possible. After years of practice, I don’t find myself needing much effort to keep to them

If you’re the type who says, “well, religion doesn’t cause any harm,” then I”d like to suggest to you that you read John Draper’s History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1881). http://etext.virgini...0&grouping=work I’d venture to say that religion has caused more harm to the world than any other single cause. As to why people are religious, I think that memes (see Viruses of the Mind; www.memecentral.com) have a lot to do with it.

I could go on and on, but I’ll give you a chance to respond first.

Thanks,
James

[Christian]

BJklein

I suspect you might be right in your predictions of the future. If we even bother shaping our environment at all. Personally I would prefer to adapt myself to be comfortable in an environment then to change the environment itself. But then, who knows what the future will bring. I'm starting to understand why everyone calls transhumanism the singularity. Every time I try to think of what the future could be like I'm just overwhelmed with possibilities, and those are only the ones I can think of. Truly ours is an exciting time to live in. The birth of a new era for humanity. I can't wait to see what the future brings.

John Galt

I can tell you put a lot of feelings into your words. And, sadly, I must agree with you on much of your post. Especially about religion. You wrote a lot of stuff to reply to so I'll take this one part at a time.

Religion has caused much harm to the world yes but, on that same scale, so has humanity in general (through extinction, pollution, etc). However just as humans can mend their mistakes and improve the world Christianity can help (and has helped) humankind. Your family's prayers may not have healed your aunt but it probably helped your family overcome their grief at your aunt's passing. Religion has two main problems right now. The first is a problem that has plagued humankind for all of recorded history. Ignorance. The average Christian knows very little about genetic alteration or stem cell research. All we hear about it is scientists killing unborn children and people like the realians attempting to clone themselves. Things even many people here dislike. If you want us to stop protesting you must show us the truth about these things.
The second problem with religion right now is that, though it is of divine origin, it is now being run by humans. And humans, even the best of us, fail. Just like the leaders of countries pastors have a lot of responsibility and a lot of things can go wrong. Unfortunately for us, a lot of things obviously did. It's probably time for another revolution among religion to try and get things back on track.

Condemning people to hell for all eternity just for not hearing about God would be really bad wouldn't it? I've thought about this for a long time and it just doesn't seem like something the God I know would do. So I've come up with the following theory which (to me) makes a lot more sense. In the New Testament, It is said that when Jesus died he went to hell and brought all the souls their to heaven, Jewish, Gentile, Priest, Sinner. It didn't matter who you were you got to go to heaven. I can understand this since God has always, in the Bible, disciplined people for their errors and then forgiven them. Much like a caring father would. So if this has happened once already why couldn't it happen again? It doesn't explicitly say so in the Bible and I've never heard a pastor even considering this but I truly believe that eventually, God will open the gates of hell again and let all of the souls in their to heaven.
Still this doesn't explain why people who never heard of God would be sent to hell even if they were good does it? The best opinion I've ever seen of this was in Chronicles of Narnia. The last battle (the last of a series of fantasy books by a Christian author). In the book a worshipper of the devil talks to God and basically God says "Every bad deed you did in my name, you truly did in the devil's name and every good deed you did in the devil's name, you really did in my name." God has been known by many names over the years and perhaps all those people really were worshipping God. They just didn't realize it. I'm not as sure about this theory as I am about my other one but it makes a lot of sense to me. It would also explain why many religions seem to have similar principles.

For how God acts in this world I'm going to compare God to a father again. When you have a child there are three basic ways you can raise it. You can give it everything it asks for when it asks for it and have it turn into a spoiled brat. You can completely ignore it and have it turn into a rebellious punk. Or you can let it grow into it's own person, helping when it needs it. Even to my mere 17 year old human mind, the third option seems like the best. And the third option is what God chose. Yet it seems many people expect the first option and complain when they don't get it. If God wanted us to remain childlike forever he would never have put that tree in the garden. Instead he gave us the chance to grow up. He does help us though, miracles happen all the time. We don't seem to notice them much, perhaps we take them for granted, but if you ever stop and look you can see them.

Sorry if this seems a bit accusing, I'm just trying to show my point of view

Christian

P.S. I use a lot of comparisons when I'm describing stuff. Do they help anyone understand it better?

[A941]

Hm ... if i would be a christian i would think iam a sinner, cause iam interested in (physical) immortality?
There are many reasons: not enough trust in jesus, the deathpenalty given to A&E by God -->original sin,
fixation on material world(...and thou shalt have treasure in heaven...),...

Edited by A941, 23 April 2003 - 08:04 PM.

[galtsgulch]

Christian;

Thanks for the response. Obviously you're not one who thinks the Bible is literally true. What other than your own "feeling" do you rely on to know there is a god?

Thanks,
Galt

[Christian]

A941
I really don't understand you're post. Was that even a question? Could you please rephrase that in a little more detail.

John
Actually I do see the Bible as literally true. I just see it in a different way from most people. As you've probably noticed by I have a rather unique viewpoint in everything. I try to see the positive of things I hear.
I don't take it word for word though. It was written by humans and has been repeatedly translated into other languages. The general stuff is still probably right but just one or two phrases alone has a lot of chance of having a translation error. Then there is the fact that a lot of it can be taken from different viewpoints. The most important thing to remember is just to believe the teachings in general, not to argue what this or that verse means. This is sort of what Jesus said to the pharisees.

All that aside I would completely ignore the Bible if it did not coincide with my two primary beliefs. The two rules I have stated before and that Jesus is a good role model. I base everything off of these two and just use the Bible to reinforce my beliefs and fill in some of the blanks.


As for why I believe in God. Well, why do you believe in history, of even in the laws of science for that matter. I mean did you actually watch all those events take place or perform experiments that proved every rule of science? No. You simply read what someone else wrote and took it for the truth. Depending on how you took it, you could even say you can't believe you're own eyes (The Matrix anyone?). In the end, we all just take what we see as the most logical, or what we wish to be true the most, as the truth. This is basically why we have so many arguments over what is true and what is not. To each of us the truth is slightly (or radically) different.

And so, in light of this belief, I decided that God made more sense to me, and than any of the alternatives, and I liked it more too, and took that as my truth.

On a similar and non-religious note. I don't actually believe that what we consider right now as the laws of the universe (speed of light, creation or destruction of energy, etc) as the true laws of the universe. Instead I think they are very impressive sounding theories that we haven't been able to disprove yet simply because we don't have the necessary technology. I don't like limiting myself to the thought that something is impossible. This is one of the reasons I'm seeking immortality. So that, a million years from now, I can look back at what people thought was impossible and laugh.

Again this is just my truth but it does make a lot of sense when I think about it.

a very complicated post but I think it does a good job of expressing how I think. Hope you like it.
Christian

One final note. Because I think like this I don't believe that anyone is "wrong". They merely have a different truth than I do. When I make these posts I take this into consideration. I don't want you to switch your beliefs if you don't want to. Instead I want to show you how I think. A different viewpoint on the same situation. I haven't found a Biblical match for this yet but I'm sure it's there. I just need to keep looking. And besides, it is the way that Jesus acted towards others most of the time. Understanding and accepting, no matter what the circumstances.

[fruitimmortal]

Jesus himself studied the ancient texts( about 170 books of the Bible have been removed!)
He was THE Physician, saving people that where willing to be well from illness and death by teaching the principles of the Science of everlasting physical life.

[A941]

Christan

Physical immortality would be a sin cause the christian god has punished A&E for their so called crime, and with Adam and Eve he punished the entire human race.
The punishment for the original sin is to die.

Genesis 2,16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it YOU WILL SURLEY DIE."

The Bible (the christian God) is against physical Immortality.
Mankind must be punished, and the believe in gods Son is the only way out.

for example:

Matthew 6,19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

[galtsgulch]

Christian: This "letter to Dr. Laura" has made the rounds, but it does express some of the weird notions which can be taken from a literal translation of the bible.

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual unclean lines (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14).

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[galtsgulch]

As for why I believe in God. Well, why do you believe in history, of even in the laws of science for that matter. I mean did you actually watch all those events take place or perform experiments that proved every rule of science? No. You simply read what someone else wrote and took it for the truth. Depending on how you took it, you could even say you can't believe you're own eyes (The Matrix anyone?). In the end, we all just take what we see as the most logical, or what we wish to be true the most, as the truth. This is basically why we have so many arguments over what is true and what is not. To each of us the truth is slightly (or radically) different.

Christian:

I highly recommend that you read a book or two on LOGIC. The purpose of logic is to acquire knowledge (to find out what's true) and that's what logic helps you do. Believe it or not, there are FACTS out there: e.g., if you eat poisons you will become sick and possibly die. Do you want to live a long time? You will not be able to live consistently with Nature unless you are able to find out what's TRUE and to apply this knowledge to your actions. The more you learn, the greater will be your chances of survival. Medical Science is the field of acquiring knowledge about the Human Body. If we took actions based solely on "beliefs" (unproven assertions) we'd enjoy the limited lifespan that generally plagued the human race several hundred years ago.

I don't "believe" in history. In order to hold something as "true" I have to have know a lot more about the assertion, that the fact that someone claimed it was true. That doesn't stop me from reading history, or from categorizing information as probable, highly-probably, proven, or improbable, highly-improbably, or disproven. For example, I have read several dozen books on Thomas Jefferson. There are numerous consistent statements about his life, ideas, etc. which seem highly probable (to be true). Contemporary accounts would be generally given more weight than later accounts by people who merely learned about Jefferson by reading other people's books. Of course, Jefferson's own writings would have more weight than the opinions of others regarding what Jefferson did or didn't do or say. However, NONE of these things can be "proved" in the way that a Law of Nature can be proved. Thus, it's important to hold these bits of information in their proper context - that they may or may not be true, but that you can categorize them according to various logical tests.

Logic must be applied even to things which we see for ourselves. This has nothing to do with a "Matrix" claim, for such a claim wold be in violation of the axiom that we are capable of observing reality. Without that statement, you might as well give up on ANYTHING being knowledge, because you could never prove anything.

On a similar and non-religious note. I don't actually believe that what we consider right now as the laws of the universe (speed of light, creation or destruction of energy, etc) as the true laws of the universe. Instead I think they are very impressive sounding theories that we haven't been able to disprove yet simply because we don't have the necessary technology. I don't like limiting myself to the thought that something is impossible. This is one of the reasons I'm seeking immortality. So that, a million years from now, I can look back at what people thought was impossible and laugh.

Man is not omniscient, thus our knowledge is ever expanding. This doesn't mean that what we "know" about Nature is wrong; it simply means we don't know everything about it yet. Is that bad? Does this somehow invalidate what we do hold as true, yet will refine in the future? I think not. Most people don't like limiting themselves to the FACTS, that's one of the biggest problems facing mankind today. Many people would like to live in a Romantic fantasy of innate or revelational knowledge. Unfortunately, NATURE isn't forgiving. If you luck out and act consistently with Nature (even though you did so for the wrong reasons) then okay. But, if you make the wrong choice, your "Faith" will not help you. I'm not accusing you, Christian, of these faults. But you need to read about the Scientific Revolution (e.g., people such as Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton) and find out for yourself why civilization advanced so quickly from the Renaissance forward.

Maybe you have a future in Cosmology or Physics. I hope you will learn more about Science, the Scientific Method and Logic.

Thanks!

[fruitimmortal]

" I believe in God only I spell it Nature "

(Author unknown)

[galtsgulch]

I use "NATURE" in the sense of that which is natural. God would be anything but natural (i.e., it is by definition "Super-natural").

[fruitimmortal]

" My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind "

Albert Einstein

[truth_believer2003]

Christian: I have found your thread to be very interesting. I do have some questions for you, though. You say that God is with you and your beliefs. How do you know? I am somewhat agreeing (I hate to say) with BJ (sorry, BJ) about your unsupported conjectures. You say that they don't "feel 'inherently' wrong with [you]." As a Christian I have come to recognize the fact that feelings are the last thing that we should base our religious beliefs upon, let alone other important decisions. Feelings are deceptive and selfish, no matter how "good" you are. I just can't buy into your thought that God supports you without a little more concrete evidence. Being a Christian I understand that many things are taken by faith, but those pertain to matters of God's existence, His love for us, and His infinite Plan. You say that you definitely want to upgrade your body. Why? Do you feel that it is inadequate? Do you believe that God created a body for you that does not allow you to carry out his commands? If so, I would respectfully request that you explain to me how this is possible. I do understand that the fall of mankind led to many things outside of God's Plan. (I am not stating that God made a mistake or misinterpretted what mankind would do after Creation, but I am stating that we did not do what we were expected to do. We were expected to love, trust, and obey Him and His commands.) I do not see, however, a decaying body as a stumbling block for carrying out His commands. In essence, do you feel you have been created by God with something less than good enough? The Great Commision is God's will for our lives. He also wills that we love, respect, trust, and obey Him. Can you not do this in your current body? In addition, I disagree with your analogy of Heaven and moving. BJKlein, I would like to think that I could answer your question better. Christians know that they will join God in a perfect state in a realm called Heaven. In Heaven, our bodies will be perfected into a kind of "spiritual" body. This cannot be viewed as our physical bodies. These bodies are not perfect. But this is the way we were created. In a sense, it is a small "preview" of what is to come. If you think that you can have a good life here, your life will be PERFECTED in Heaven. For some, this world is not a "preview" at all. It can be a nightmare, and that is why they decide to end their lives prematurely. We are not here for convenience or pleasure, BJ. We are here to carry out a purpose. We (as Christians) are commanded to do something for God in this life. Once we have done what God wants us to do, He will then bring us to Heaven with Him. You are correct in believing that Christians hold the view of a perfect world full of love as Heaven. This is what we are told by God Heaven is. However, it is not our decision as to when we are to die. It is God's. It is not that we may not "want to move" to a place that we aren't familiar with. It has nothing to do with our preference or desires, but rather God's. Back to Christian's comments: You stated something to the effect that you want to become something great. You stated that you wanted to do something with your own two hands. I am sorry, but you sound a little too self interested for me. The last time I checked, we are not living for ourselves. I do believe that the Bible states that we are here solely to worship God. Are you interested in self credit and recognition? I do believe that we are to be praising God and His majestic work in all that we do. Do you really desire recognition for something that you've done? Will anything that you physically do last in the end? I hope that you do know that nothing physical will last in the end. This we can be assured of through God's Word. BJ Klein: (It sounds funny writing to you being that my best friend is named BJ Klein ) Do you believe in the Evolution Theory? From what you have stated, I gather that you do. You say that you find evolution to be the truth. I must admit that I have done some research and that I have found that the harder I search the more I am convinced that Evolution is completely wrong. The more I searched the more I found to disprove evolution. Along with the question of whether you believe in Evolution, do you believe the "whole nine yards?" Do you believe that Big Band, soup on a rock story, etc.? (This will only help me understand your viewpoint better to more appreciate your comments.) (I am willing to compile some facts that I have come across that disprove Evolution if you desire to see them. It would take a great deal of time to gather, though, being that I have not read these papers for over two years or more. But if you do desire to see them, I will dig them out for you.) Mind: Regretfully, I do so hope that you are not a Christian promoting similar ideas as what you stated. I cannot believe your quote: "There is no commandment against it, so why not?" You bring to the table a dose of extreme Christian liberty. A sense of liberty that I do not think I can accept. There are commands against certain things even though they are not explicitly stated. Can you honestly sit there saying that if God does not explicitly state, "You shall not modify your body to live forever," that it is then okay? I believe that more research and thought needs to be placed into the question whether God has already stated that you shall not do this or not. Of course not in an explicit example. I just don't understand how you could state that being a Christian. Christian: Back to you again...You say your mind is what makes you who you are. What then is your soul to you? Just an idea...In addition, I do recommend that you study the Evolution Theory in its entirety. In your post on Mar 25, 2003, you seem to be stating that you randomly chose Creation over Evolution. How do you know that Creation is true? Somewhat a question of a Devil's advocate, but is your belief soundly backed or not? You say that if Evolution were true, you wouldn't feel very special. Do you need to feel special to make something the truth, especially about a matter so large and important? Maybe some clarification could clear a couple doubts that I currently possess of you, Christian. BJ Klein: I will respond to your last couple posts in the next couple days (I have to run to Spanish class now ).

Some thoughts, truth_believer2003

Please note that I am new to these views of living forever, and I do not claim to know everything about this topic. In addition, I do not want anyone, whether Christian or non-Christian to take a view that I view myself as perfect in thinking. I can, and have before, admitted to being wrong. I will stand corrected in full humbleness should anyone fully disprove any of my thinking.

[truth_believer2003]

BJ Klein: To your post on Mar 31, 2003, I must admit that I find it a little amusing. I heard a quote from that book in a sermon. The sermon had a brief section where it held some interesting facts about physical human nature in relation to God, church, and worship of God. The pastor used the quote with several others to show that during a worship service a person will become calmed and refreshed. Did humans evolve this way? If you do believe in evolution you would say yes. However, I believe that we were created this way. For me and other fellow believers it is yet another example to us that God manifests everything good in our lives centered on Him. Christian: To your post on Apr 1, 2003, I have a couple questions. My youth pastor used to warn us all the time about getting “caught up in useless arguments.” To an extent I agree with Him. It is not crucial or beneficial for Christians to argue about the meaning of the word “pour” in Revelation for example. He constantly reminded us that we are here to fulfill the Great Commission and to praise Him. However, I do find it necessary to confirm with one another that they do in fact believe and spread the Truth. I have not ever heard of a True Christian who did not really care if the earth was created or if it evolved. This is an essential part of the Christian faith. My definition of a Christian is summarized in works such as the Apostles’ Creed (http://www.creeds.ne...nt/apostles.htm), the Nicene Creed (http://www.mit.edu/~...cene-creed.html), and even the Heidelberg Catechism (http://www.prca.org/hc_index.html). Other than the actual creeds and statements I do not necessarily endorse anything else on these websites. I found these sites as examples for someone to read them in case they were interested. Back to your post, Christian, I cannot understand a Christian that does not (or possibly does not) support the Creation of the Earth. Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? Can you really believe that God created a “pre-Big-Bang” world and from there allowed the world to continue through the process of evolution. This sounds a little similar to some Deist beliefs. Do you believe the world to be like a clock set in motion and hung on a wall to tick on its own? I cannot support your relaxed feeling that Creation may not be true.