67 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

As suggested by jaydfox, here is a new thread on vegetarianism and how it relates to life extension/transhumanism/anything else you want to include.

Some of the things that may be discussed:
1) The ethics of killing and eating animals when we ourselves want to extend our lives.
2) The various health aspects related to being a vegetarian (vegan, etc.) as opposed to not being one.
3) The practical considerations of society changing to a more vegetarian diet vs. staying as it is now (heavily reliant on meat eating).
4) Discussions of if certain animals are ok to eat while others are not.
5) Anything else you can think of not listed here.

Here is a link to another "poll" thread on the subject, but as Jay pointed out it was getting too long (16 pages now), so it might be beneficial to start a new thread. Read up on the other one for some good ideas, however, if you would like to.

Let the arguments begin...

(Let's try to keep this civil, with no personal attacks, etc., just argument of ideas)

[Live Forever]

To start off, I myself am a vegetarian. I very rarely still used dairy or eggs, but do on occasion. There are a few reasons for my choice, mainly health and moral ones.

Personally, I don't feel as if it is morally right to kill animals for the sole purpose of eating them. This, of course, would be nullified if I was starving or if eating meat was in some other way my only way to survive. Also, various types of animal testing, depending on exactly what they are, seem to be ok to me since they have a societal benefit.

As far as the health reasons, I know that most meat (red meat especially) causes lots of health problems including heart disease, increased rates of cancer, etc. while some meat (fish mainly) has some net health benefits.

Socially, I know that it takes a lot more resources to produce meat than it does to produce vegetables. For instance, 40,000 pounds of potatoes can be grown on an acre while only 250 pounds of beef can be produced on an acre. Another comparison: 16 pounds of grain and soybeans are needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef. So, it would seem a good way to begin putting a dent in world hunger would be to switch to a more vegetarian based diet.

Just a few of my thoughts to start things off...

[featherheadfop]

I am also a vegetarian. Although animals are less evolved intellectually than homo sapiens, it is no sort of excuse to kill them. In a survival-based setting when meat is the only source of protein or food, it is acceptable out of necessity. I even agree more with those who hunt food rather than buy meat from the slaughterhouse after animals have been pent up for their entire lives. I do not have a problem with eating eggs, in principle, I consider the development of synapses to be the big red line of life's beginning, but I do have a problem with eating eggs when chickens have to endure horrible conditions in order to produce the eggs. I am a vegetarian mostly for ethical reasons at this point, I don't eat too healthfully as of yet, though I am working on that ... If done properly, though, vegetarianism certainly has many health benefits.

[featherheadfop]

Also, your point about the costs involved in the production of meat v. produce is a good one.

[DJS]

Personally, I don't feel as if it is morally right to kill animals for the sole purpose of eating them.

Although animals are less evolved intellectually than homo sapiens, it is no sort of excuse to kill them.

Why? What is your rationale for "feeling" the way you do?

If you really want to debate the ethics of animal rights then you atleast need to put forward a substantive argument.

[JonesGuy]

I'm a vegetarian due to health reasons and ecological reasons. I believe that our planet is more sustainable if more people consume less meat. This means we have more resources devoted to other things, instead of pissing them away with our diets.

[kevin]

I think there is an inherent value to the the complexity of consciousness that makes eating organisms that are perceived to be closer to human level awareness less attractive than those further down the chain. Plants being about as far away from us as you can get without being inanimate are the obvious comfortable choice.

As far as I'm concerned, eating animals is something which humanity will likely evolve out of, but there is nothing immoral about it...just primitive when considered in the light that there are healthier choices which overall show a respect for the preservation of complexity.

That being said, I sure do like a good piece of broiled chicken, free-range of course, and I totally respect it for providing me a good meal.

[featherheadfop]

Why?  What is your rationale for "feeling" the way you do?

If you really want to debate the ethics of animal rights then you atleast need to put forward a substantive argument.

Well --- assuming that you, as an immortalist, are opposed to unnecessary (human) death, and are not a vegetarian, what makes a human fundamentally more worthy than an animal?

Would you argue that an animal doesn't have the capacity to consciously "think"? My view of consciousness, (boiled down to a simplistic statement), is that it is the ability to comprehend the current situation and react. There are probably many levels of consciousness, and we certainly operate largely subconsciously, and neuroscience is a thing in which I am admittedly not well versed ... but the core of my argument, I guess, is that even though animals cannot react with nearly the same forethought and logic that a human can, it does not mean they are not conscious beings. Personally I am offended by any sort of unecessary suffering or death -- and raw primordial feelings of pain do not decrease with IQ. It's like beating up the mentally retarded because they "won't understand anyway".

This is not an entirely scientific argument, it stinks of attributing some intrinsic worth to the emotions. I do not regard any form of life, humans included, to have any sort of transcendental stature in the universe. But from a philosophical point of view I feel compelled to vehemently oppose suffering in any form.

[scottl]

If it were simply a matter of..ethics. morals, whatever you call it, and there were no (negative) health implications to choosing to obtain all one's protein from non-animal sources that would be one thing. But I do not believe in shortening my lifespan to avoid harming animals. Some people thrive on veggie diets. Some could probably do OK on either kinda diet. Some do not do as well on a veggie diet. This is my experience in my body, and in working with others. There are certain theories as to who needs which diets, though I'm somewhat skeptical and not sure they are totally valid (the blood type diet comes to mind. Metabolic typing I've had better luck with). But the bottom line is if you experiement with both types of diet, and feel better eating animal protein (and you try this several times, etc) then quite perhaps your body "does better" eating meat.

--The blood type diet does have lots of flaws, but FWIW a number of people I've talked to who do better eating meat (including me) were blood type O.

--obviously I'm not talking McDonald's hamburgers here, wild salmon, hormone free antibiotic free beef, chicken, etc.

--if you are trying to eat a veggie diet because you've decided on that e.g. for moral reasons, and find yourself craving meat, that is something worth checking out to see if indeed your body does do better eating meat. I was trying to tell someone this on the last thread (may have been Jay).

NB: I ain't trying to tell anyone how to eat. I only wish to point out that choosing one's diet based on one's beliefs may have negative health consequences.

[Live Forever]

--if you are trying to eat a veggie diet because you've decided on that e.g. for moral reasons, and find yourself craving meat, that is something worth checking out to see if indeed your body does do better eating meat.  I was trying to tell someone this on the last thread (may have been Jay).

In my experience, cravings are more dependent on what one is used to eating rather than what is beneficial to oneself. I know plenty of people that "crave" ice cream sundaes, or french fries, or potato chips, etc., but that doesn't mean that the craving is indeed the healthiest thing that could be consumed. For me personally, when I go through periods of my life when I eat lots of healthy food (salads, plenty of veggies, etc) then I begin to crave those types of foods, and lose my desire to indulge in unhealthy foods (ice cream, red meat, etc). I also feel better about myself when I am eating right, and feel as if my body is healthier. (although this is probably mostly mental perception)

I know that for myself, I have an easy time making lifestyle changes, as well as not having much of an addictive personality, so I think it might have been easier for me to give up eating meat than some people. When I first switched, my body had to adjust (which may be what you were talking about scottl), but after a couple months I would say I was fully adjusted. Now, if I try to eat meat, it gives me a worse reaction than I ever had switching from a meat to vegetarian diet. (I can go into more details if anyone is interested)

The thing about being vegetarian for me is that there are 3 main reasons for it (health, personal morality, and social benefits) and if it were any one of the reasons, then it might not be enough to compel me to be a vegetarian. (I would have to rethink my stance) I know that it is an individual decision on the choice of being a vegetarian, and I would not want to impose my morality on others (as I would not want someone else to impose theirs on me), but for me it is a very clear cut decision.

[DJS]

Would you argue that an animal doesn't have the capacity to consciously "think"? My view of consciousness, (boiled down to a simplistic statement), is that it is the ability to comprehend the current situation and react.

Does a cow really comprehend its current situation when it is in the slaughter house?

But from a philosophical point of view I feel compelled to vehemently oppose suffering in any form.

Cow is placed in position, *womp*, cow is dead. Where's the suffering?

[scottl]

LIve,

Sugar/junk cravings don't count. Everyone does that especially under stress. Totally different.

[Grail]

Cow is placed in position, *womp*, cow is dead.  Where's the suffering?

http://www.organicco...sensibility.cfm

http://www.vancouver...oryfarming.html

[DJS]

Some slaughterhouse operators are violating federal law by failing to properly knock out animals before they are put on assembly lines for processing, surveys by veterinarians and animal-welfare groups say.

There are laws on the books which spell out what constitutes humane treatment. If slaughterhouse owners run their facilities outside of law then they should suffer the consequences. Turning from ethics to personal morality, it is safe to say that when a moral agent operates as a rational egoist the notion of a "universalization of actions" becomes absurd. Sartre's coup was dead at conception back in 46.

[Richard Leis]

My original understanding was that domesticated animals enjoy a unique quality of life compared to wild animals and that their death is quick and painless. However, it appears this is not the case. I have also become more and more uncomfortable with the use of animals in laboratory research, but I am not about to demand that the practice end. I hope instead that scientists will eventually create alternatives that are equally effective.

Certainly we can do more to treat animals more humanely, while gradually expanding human rights to other species. With technological progress comes the ability to take on greater and greater responsibility for the stewardship of this planet and its lifeforms.

This is not going to happen overnight. In fact, last night I had an Ultimate Cheeseburger from Jack-in-the-Box. It was incredibly delicious, all 900+ calories of it. So far I am turning out to be a terrible vegetarian.

[DJS]

Jack-in-the-Box

I take in you're from California, Richard. One of the things I miss most about San Diego is In-N-Out. Man, can they make a burger.

[doug123]

I have not read this whole thread, and probably should to do everyone due diligence.

I am a vegetarian beacuse I can be so very easily these days. It's not like there is not an abundance of vegetarian cusine to choose from -- that is appetizing. Choice of food is primarily based on our social conditioning.

I do consume organic cheese and other such dairy products.

If one is a vegetarian, one should consider taking the follwing supplements:

1. Creatine monohydrate
2. L-carnosine
3. L-carntiine as ALCAR
4. Vitamin B12

Creatine 'boosts brain power'
http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/3145223.stm

Vegetarians and beyond
http://www.lonza.com...and_beyond.html

I'd leave more references but I have to get to bed now.

Peace.
P.S. Scott: when you say NB do you mean Nuts and Bolts?

[Richard Leis]

Close enough. I'm in Tucson, Arizona and unfortunately Jack-in-the-Box is just a few blocks away from me. But my visits there are growing more infrequent, despite their deliciousness. I tried In-N-Out for the first time just a couple years ago. Great burgers, didn't really like their fries.

[scottl]

NB=note well...note benne maybe? I forget where this comes from.

[opales]

NB
Nota bene -- latin for "note well". Used to call particular attention to something

[AdamDavis]

But my visits there are growing more infrequent, despite their deliciousness.

Enoosphere, I ask this with all the politeness I can muster, but why do you want to eat what they sell there? Do you feel as if you just want to treat you self? I'm not judging, I'm just wondering .

[mikeyg]

Does a cow really comprehend its current situation when it is in the slaughter house?



Cow is placed in position, *womp*, cow is dead.  Where's the suffering?

Don, what exactly do you mean by "comprehend" here? If an animal suffers horribly for an extended period while in a slaughter house or a factory farm, but doesn't comprehend the situation it's in, is that then ok ?

By the same reasoning, would it be ok to allow babies or certain mentally hadicapped people to suffer in intense and prolonged pain because they don't understand the situation there in or what's really happening to them (besides the fact that they're feeling immense pain)?

As to a "Cow is placed in position, *womp*, cow is dead.." Sadly this is a horribly (for the animals sake) ignorant statement. If it were only that way, and for the most part it used to be before the onset of factory farms and agribusness, then the ignorance of so many people in regards to the animals welfare would not have such horrific consequences. It would be nice if all the animals were still reaised on family farms where the could live semi-normal lives and be able to exihbit their natural behavior.

As I didn't read the original thread I don't know for sure but I have a feeling your question as to whether a cow comprehends it's situation or not is related in your mind to it's ability to suffer( and/or be tortured). Ie. If an animal feels prolonged pain (yes cow's feel pain as they didn't evolve nervous systems to NOT feel pain) but isn't able to "dwell" on the pain and it's own inability to allieviate itself of it, is that considered suffering. Is that what you were getting at by "comprehend"

The most recent, easily accessible, educational, and inclusive source of information on this topic (including recent scientific input on animals "ability" to suffer) is a new documentary called Earthlings:

"Narrated by Academy Award Nominee Joaquin Phoenix and featuring music by the critically acclaimed platinum artist Moby, EARTHLINGS is a documentary film about humankind's complete economic dependence on animals raised for pets, food, clothing, entertainment and scientific research. Using hidden cameras and never-before-seen footage, EARTHLINGS chronicles the day-to-day practices of the largest industries in the world, all of which rely entirely on animals for profit. Powerful, informative, controversial and thought-provoking, EARTHLINGS is by far the most comprehensive documentary ever produced on the correlation between nature, animals and human economic interests"

http://www.isawearthlings.com/


This film is available to be downloaded for free and if anyone is interested in watching it email me at mikeyg95@hotmail.com and I'll point you in the right direction.


So Don or anyone else, if you have the time, watching this documentary from start to finish is a good way to gain a firm (non-ignorant) basis on which to start a conversation about the science,and ethics on the modern "human-animal" relationship.

I should really go read the past thread on this topic and I'm going to starting tomorrow so sorry If Ive misinterpreted antying here.

As to my own eating habits, I don't believe eating other animals is necessairly unethical. My problem is with the terribly inhumane way a massive number of animals are now raised and treated before and while killed. This extendes to more than just food however and this issues are relevent to products with animal ingredients, testing etc.

I consider myself an "ethical omnivore." Since I've become interested in this topic (since last year after attending a series of lectures at my university on the topic) I refuse to eat any meat, dairy, eggs from animals raised in factory farms etc. I eat a mostly vegetarian diet and I eat organic yogurt, cheese, free-range eggs, and free-range chicken. Like a few others have stated here before, considering our evolutionary history, from what I've read and from personal experience, I think there is certainly a segment (how large is a different topic) of the human race than would do very poorly on a vegan diet at this point in our species history.

[Richard Leis]

Biopunk...I was drunk and a cheeseburger sounded really good. I paid for it the next day.

[tous]

In my opinion changing your mind based or wether animal comprehends it or the situations surrounding it is errelivant. Right or Wrong, No Gray. You beleive in extinguishing one life to feed your self or you Do Not.

For that matter, I believe in extinguishing one life to feed myself, or I should say my species because I wouldn't eat within it.

Some reasons.... I like the balance the way it is, I don't want to lower us in the food chain and I do not want to create more competition for lower species by competeing for their food groups when this could in theory lead to there exstingtion.

Also, meats just so dawmed tastey.

Ofc there are a swack of societal/religious swaying for or againts vegitarianism but I donot beleive that is what the topic creator intended so I won't mention those.

[DJS]

Don, what exactly do you mean by "comprehend" here? If an animal suffers horribly for an extended period while in a slaughter house or a factory farm, but doesn't comprehend the situation it's in, is that then ok ?

By the same reasoning, would it be ok to allow babies or certain mentally hadicapped people to suffer in intense and prolonged pain because they don't understand the situation there in or what's really happening to them (besides the fact that they're feeling immense pain)?

I simply don't have the time or desire to school you. Go look at the previous thread on vegetarianism for a more thorough presentation of my perspective.

[Pablo M]

Another consideration on the anti-meat side: Loren Cordain, proponent of the paleo diet, writes in his book that it is impossible to feed the world's population on the eating plan he recommends. He merely says it is financially feasible for most people in the USA to do so.

[Grail]

Probably only a wholesale boycott of meat will lead to the reduction of animal suffering. How about if we DON'T eat meat, the animal's suffering will have been for nothing! :D
I'm sure when artificially grown meat becomes readily available, all of us will switch to that.
I also think that more thorough policing of slaughtering facilities is certainly in order. We may be pro-meat, but we're certainly not pro-suffering.

[scottl]

I am not for unnecessary animal suffering (I refused to participate in an animal experiement during my training). But as far as diet choice I have a radical idea. You eat what you consider appropriate, and let others do the same.

[doug123]

I think that the way things are going now -- as far as the human race is concerned -- we have a long way from being efficient -- and if we continue to ravage our planet at the going rate it won't last that much longer. Eating meat isn't a good long term plan for us -- if we intend to live on this planet much longer.

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
- Albert Einstein

[Shepard]

If we intend to live on this planet much longer, I've a feeling that eating meat is at the bottom of a long list of issues.

Einstein's writings about physics/mathematics, I'll take as pretty damn accurate. Otherwise, his opinions on other things shouldn't be held much higher than anyone else.