23 replies to this topic

[caliban]

Regarding a brief little discussion I had in the chat today :

Considering that true religious belief makes you feel truly immortal-
would it not be better to put all the energy, money and hope that you are currently placing on technical improbabilities towards the furthering of your own religious belief?

Surely, the chances that you can convince yourself that there is an immortal soul after all are much better than the chances for attaining physical immortality?

Would be very interested to read your thoughts on this.

------
--no CIRA here, but ramblings will be removed--

[Utnapishtim]

Interesting question you have thrown up here, Caliban.

I will answer as best I can, deliberately leaving out the whole issue of objective truth and its value. I have no intention of getting lost up that particular blind alley.

First off I question your assumption that religious belief, regardless of whether or not it makes you feel immortal, actually provides a greater return on investment, in terms of happiness than other worldviews. It would seem to me that even if religious belief is a useful tool for dealing with the paralyzing fear of death, it generally provides you with as many new anxieties as it alleviates. Sexual guilt and fear of eternal torment, for example are two notions I am quite happy to live without. Religions also generally introduce a whole host of arbitrary restrictions and places a high premium on social conformity. While some people may gain contentment from such structures many others do not, including myself.

As a sidenote, I have seen few statistics on the extent to which religious beliefs contribute to personal happiness and how this changes with age. Is the 25 year old atheist notably less happy than the 25 year old religious person all other things being equal? How about the 75 year old religious person vs the 75 year old atheist? If anyone has more concrete information on this I’d be greatful if they could provide me with it.

I don’t think religious faith is a product that is available to me, even if I was looking to buy. I have been eating far too many of those forbidden fruit. Much as the entertainment value of a stage magicians act is utterly ruined if you know how the tricks are performed, I think that a truly rational educated mind is immune to the succor that religion can provide. Even were this not the case I consider myself temperamentally unsuited to most forms of religion.
For one, I don’t even find the promises particularly appealing once you step outside the abrahamic faiths. I am far too egotistical and wrapped up wrapped up in the continuation of my own selfhood to draw comfort from reincarnation or nirvana.
Neither am I particularly good at holding two contradictory views at once. I don’t think I could live with a worldview as inevitably incoherent as the one that would result from my attempting to shoehorn my experience of the modern world into ancient religious framework.
Finally, when confronted with the inevitability of personal extinction I feel that shouting my defiance from a mountaintop has more style than comforting myself with a pack of millennia-old lies or succumbing fatalistically.

I do not have any illusions of living forever. But I do think that there is a very good chance that advances in technology could dramatically extended it.

I would be interested in hearing the answer to your own question, Caliban.

Had you been given the option of living and dying in a time and place where religious claims of immortality were plausible, would you have taken it?

[Lazarus Long]

When I first saw the title I thought it was another fundamentalist evangelical message, then I saw who created the thread.

I wondered, does he mean to put God on trial?

You know like, hold the bastard responsible for all the crime done in His name? Or cataclysmic crap that all living creatures must endure in the system of Natural Selection that is so divine.

Then I thought no, that can't be...

Hmmm

Oh now I get it.

We are just trying His patience.

Or maybe we just are the patient.

Oh what the hell when lost at sea any port in a storm I suspect.

If it succeeds at getting your mojo working that is better than going gently into that good night. But the limits of faith are reality, reality is determined by reason, and reason is determined by choice.

Where the hell does anyone think they are going with the spiritual avenue, to Heaven of course. Well in the mean time they are laying waste to Eden. Sounds like a con job to me. Any other items included with the special for tickets to eternity? Like everlasting sex? Power, and unending joy?

Considering that true religious belief makes you feel truly immortal-

If all you want is the "feeling" then understand that "rapture" is a product of psychostimulant neurotransmitters and drugs are easier than prayer.

If you want the "reason" behind the rapture to become reality: that will require dedication and discipline, along with serious study, determination and a "life's Work". And even then we "are going where no man has gone before" so this endeavor does not come with any guarantees, but there are fringe benefits.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 30 March 2003 - 04:20 AM.

[Lazarus Long]

BTW, the chat didn't open up for me. Can you get it archived, like BJ does the Sunday chats?

[Mind]

Surely, the chances that you can convince yourself that there is an immortal soul after all are much better than the chances for attaining physical immortality?

This quote may have been true a few decades ago but I would say it is the other way around nowadays. With science opening up so many of the mysteries of life and the universe it is getting much easier to believe in achieving physical immortality. I say it is getting harder to convince oneself of an immortal soul and afterlife. Most of the religions seem more and more like average fiction.

That is why I pursue physical immortality instead of heaven.

[Bruce Klein]

The Chat Discussion::

<ravi> what were we talking about caliban
<caliban> well...religion and wether it would not be more comfortable to believe in reincarnation
<ravi> i would like to believe in it
<ravi> i would like to believe in an afterlife
<ravi> but there is no sound evidence for it
<_Deltree_> cryonics
<ravi> plus all these religions have a different way of explaining it
<ravi> death that is
<_Deltree_> yeah, each religion patch the gap in its own way
<ravi> exactly deltree
<ravi> and plus if u thought there was a real heaven why don't u just end ur life right now
<ravi> i mean i rather be in heaven then here
<_Deltree_> instinctly we feel that there is no afterlife, but we all like to believe it
<ravi> if i was sure that i would go to heaven...with gold brick roads....i would end my life right now...so i can enjoy heaven forever
<ravi> it is all hopeful thinking
<_Deltree_> I say we shouldn't think about what's after, but get busy working in this life for a better future
<_Deltree_> deltree has spoken
<_Deltree_>
<ravi> true
<caliban> but ravi- could you not try to convince yourself and lead a happy life henceforth?
<ravi> what do u mean
<caliban> read the veda
<_Deltree_> all people are searching for happiness... me, only truth makes me happy.
<caliban> listen to your parents
<caliban> listen to your brahman
<caliban> and believe
<caliban> ?
<ravi> beleive in my relgion
<ravi> religion
<ravi> have belief
<caliban> but not in reeincarnation?
<_Deltree_> beliefs are not necessary if you understand the world that surrounds you.
<_Deltree_> if try to understand, you won't need a religion
<ravi> i would like to....i would like to beleive there is a god, but can u prove to me there is
<ravi> look i take the scientific approach
<ravi> i have to see it to beleive it
<ravi> many people have faith in their religion
<ravi> and that's good
<caliban> that is why they call it "belief" and not "evidence"
<ravi> i am not bashing religions here
<ravi> but for me i can
<ravi> can't say that i do
<ravi> believe in god
<_Deltree_> you are thinking scientifically, and that is the best thing one can do
<caliban> but what you are saying is- if you were to regain you belief in god(s), you would be less interessted in life extention?
<ravi> well if i was sure there was an after life
<ravi> the hell with life extension
<_Deltree_> I don't want to believe in something doubtful just to appease my mind.
<ravi> why do i need to concern myself with living here
<_Deltree_> instead, I will try to understand my mind
<ravi> when i can go to heaven and live forever, or reincarination
<ravi> to answer ur question...if i had total beleif in my religion...i would not be here
* caliban nods
<caliban> now answer me this:
<caliban> if i were to tell you the following:
<caliban> the chance that your life will last longer than 150 years are 0,00001 percent
<caliban> however
<ravi> yes
<caliban> the chance that you - if you really really try- can convince yourself about the existence of god and the afterlife are about 60%
<caliban> then
<caliban> why go for life extention?
<caliban> (hello maiden)
* Mermaid bows
* caliban frowns
* Mermaid raises a single eyebrow
<ravi> well let me tell u this
<ravi> i would not want to live to 150
<ravi> if i had to be bed riden
<ravi> i would rather die
<ravi> or have my self frozen
<ravi> 60 percent is still not good
<ravi> fo rme
<ravi> but again my point is to increase the healthy life span as far as possible
<ravi> b/c what is the poin t of liveing to 150
<ravi> if u can't take care of ur self
<ravi> i would need to be 100 percent sure of an aferlife....or i would do everything possible to live a healthy life span....and then frezze my self
<caliban> well once again:
<caliban> freezing yourself costs a large amount of money
<ravi> no
<caliban> the chances for successful resuscitation are very, very very slim
<ravi> it doesn't
<ravi> what do u base ur opinion on
<MermaidAFK> later
<ravi> have u read the scienftic papers on it
<eg0mech> The chances are slim now.
<ravi> no
<eg0mech> That's sort of the point. The chances are presumably better in the future as science progresses.
<caliban> well let us just say it does cost time and energy...ok
<ravi> yeha now
<ravi> ofcourse now no one can be unfrozen
<eg0mech> But since you are frozen in stasis and not rotting in the ground, you have a fighting chance.
<ravi> hwo
<ravi> how
<ravi> exactly
<ravi> and the papers i have read
<ravi> there is no evidence that shows that it is impossible
<ravi> it does not violate any physical law
<caliban> well - let us just say it does cost time and energy...and chances are not certain ...ok?
<ravi> right now there is no technology to do it
<ravi> how does it cost time and energy
<ravi> its in ur life insurance
<ravi> and it is not expensive
<ravi> it is uncertain
<ravi> but i rather be frozen then underground
<ravi> i am going to do everything possible to live a healthy life span for as long as i can
<ravi> unless an after life can be proven with a certainty
<caliban> if you spend time and energy on a guru
<caliban> live with him for a few years
<caliban> the chances good that you will inherit a belief in reincarnation - at least to a degree that will keep you reasonably happy
<ravi> i doubt it...i would be at peace now if i knew i was going to god after this life
<caliban> so should you not work on your belief in god ?
<ravi> i don't think so
<caliban> the potential gains seem very promising!
<caliban> peace
<ravi> what religion do u believe in caliban
<caliban> ui thats a tough one
<caliban> but not really the point
<ravi> and didn't u say death wasn't beatiful at the beginging of this disscussion
<ravi> that is why u were here
<ravi> and if u beleived in an after life
<ravi> why are u here
<ravi> if u had total belief in ur religion
<ravi> u wouldn't be here
<ravi> am i right
<caliban> no
<caliban> maybe i am here to help you?
<ravi> then u tell me agin why u are interested in immortality
<ravi> really
<_Deltree_> because he was built that way
<caliban> well if i were to tell you that people who really believe in a god have no trouble with mortality? but that they take pity on people who have that trouble and want to help them?
<caliban> would you not at least consider that religion is by far the more promising route to hapiness?
<ravi> yes
<ravi> ur right
<ravi> many peole i knw
<ravi> practice religion and are at peace
<_Deltree_> I believe those who fighted to survive, survived. those who didn't, died sooner. Religion helped people have faith and survive. so the gene of "let's survive" was transmitter. or something along those lines
<ravi> with themselves
<ravi> but u are eight caliban
* caliban nods
<ravi> people who tend to practice religion are at peace
<ravi> but is that a flase sense of peace
<ravi> but anyway there is no way anyone can stengthen my beleif in god without proving god exists
<caliban> peace of mind is realtive is it not?
<ravi> yes u are right
<ravi> i wish i did believe in religion
<ravi> in hinduism
<ravi> but i don't
<caliban> sooo why do you not try harder?
<ravi> b/c i do not see the point
<ravi> i bleive there is no god
<ravi> and if i beleives that then
<ravi> why practice religion
<ravi> i respect religions
<ravi> all religions
<ravi> but i personally don't beleive in it
<ravi> have u talked to bj about this
<caliban> surely the point is being happy? Did you not just agreee, that you would be much happier if you could convince yourself that god exists?
<ravi> yes
<ravi> i woulf
<ravi> my mom and dad beleive in hinduism
<ravi> and they are happy
<ravi> and at peace
<ravi> but i am not
<ravi> i am not happy
<ravi> or at peace
<ravi> let me take that back
<ravi> i am happy
<ravi> but not at peace
<caliban> so since you have the answer how to be happy and at peace right in front of you...
<caliban> why stray to places like this one?
<ravi> but that's not my answer
<caliban> in serach of artificial answers?
<ravi> my goal is to live indefindly
<ravi> unless an after life can be proven
<eg0mech> What's so great about happiness and peace?
<ravi> do u totally beleive in an after life
<ravi> caliban
<eg0mech> They're just as artificial as any other reason you can come up with.
<ravi> u think u are going to heaven after this life
<ravi> or be reincarinated
<caliban> no ravi, I believe none of these things
<ravi> so what happens when u die
<ravi> nothing
<ravi> u return to the earth
<_Deltree_> why should I believe in afterlife? because I want to live forever. Why do I want to live forever? Because in the past, it happened that the people who wanted to live forvered fought harder for their life and thus had better chances of staying alive than those who didn't. It's natural selection. got it?
<ravi> not totally deltree
<ravi> peopel have been trying to live forever
<_Deltree_> in a way, you can say that the gene of religion was transmitted. althout it's not really that
<ravi> but i don't see anyone who is 200 years old
<_Deltree_> man, life will kill you anyways. if you want it or not
<_Deltree_> why?
<_Deltree_> to recycle the matter and make new, better life
<ravi> why what
<ravi> caliban i enjoy life
<caliban> well ravi- would you mind if i post our little chat in the Imminst forums?
<ravi> every day
<ravi> i am happy
* caliban cheers
<ravi> i am looking for ways to extend my life
<ravi> no go ahead
<ravi> i ahve gibing a lot of thought to this
<caliban> thanks
<ravi> why am i afraid of death
<_Deltree_> cryonics
<ravi> i ask that question to myself everyday
<caliban> well... DO reconsider religion if the happiness does not last (and it will not)
<_Deltree_> ravi, read about natural selection
<ravi> caliban i understand ur point totally
<ravi> people with a relgigious fath live more happy and peaceful life
<ravi> as i already stated
<caliban> indeed
<ravi> but for me i don't beleive in it....but tomorrow is a new day and it might change
<caliban> well said
<caliban> thanks for the chat, ravi and excuse my testing you so wickedly !
<caliban> glad to have you with us !

[Dutchman]

[quote] well if i were to tell you that people who really believe in a god have no trouble with mortality? but that they take pity on people who have that trouble and want to help them? would you not at least consider that religion is by far the more promising route to hapiness?

Personally I see no rational point to pursuing a life of religious faith. I do not see how religion could be the only tool to happiness. Furthermore, denying the existence of rational reality through religious means seems, to me, more like fear of the unknown. Why should people cocoon themselves in a false reality(emotions resulting from believing in God) instead of facing reality for what it is. There are numerous ways happiness can be achieved, even if the person believes that after death comes oblivion. Pursuing religion in order to attain peace and happiness might work for some, but not for those who want to expand their horizons beyond the scope of a collection of stories in a book(Bible). Exploring the unknown can only lead to further evolutionary(and other) progress. Achieving a way to extend life would benefit society by introducing a greater understanding of reality. Moreover, why not REALLY try Man.

Edited by Dutchman, 20 April 2003 - 01:22 AM.

[John Schloendorn]

I believe, the fault in caliban's argument is that the pursuit of immortality is not aimed at increasing the good in our next couple of decades, but in all subsequent time.

Premises: Good and bad exist. I have no idea how their existence computationally coded or brought about. It is enough to observe that the condition of being human just involves that most states we can be in have this added property of being good or bad.

In my actual life, the good tends to outweigh the bad. So for any given piece of time, I'd rather be alive than dead, that's why I'm a so called immortalist. Pursuing molecular biology slightly increases the chances of being alive for indefinite times. This is an indefinite increase of expectable life time and thus also of expectable good.

Pursuing religion could at most add a constant to the expectable good. The faith in religion can only increase it in the next couple of decades, because after that time, faith becomes impossible, either by the knowledge that religion is true (which would also include immortalists), or by death. Apart from that, I believe that for my person, this constant would be negative for reasons simliar to Utnapishtim's.

So we have a constant with unknown sign against positive infinity. The choice is ours.

[John Doe]

Considering that true religious belief makes you feel truly immortal-
would it not be better to put all the energy, money and hope that you are currently placing on technical improbabilities towards the furthering of your own religious belief? 

Surely, the chances that you can convince yourself that there is an immortal soul after all are much better than the chances for attaining physical immortality? 

I am not so sure of that at all. Although the odds of physical immortality may be small, that does not imply that the odds of possessing an immortal soul are larger. Indeed, the odds are much less.

[A941]

Religion is cultivated fear, created trough the hope and insanity of simple minds.
Some Idiot said: "atheism is the suicide of the soul!" but Religion is the suicid of common sense.
Look at http://www.chick.com/ and you will understand.
Trough Millenias Religion stopped scientific progress and killed great Minds to protect itself from its greatest enemy: Knowledge.
All this prophets, sons of god and similar bastards destroyed knowledge of great worth for mankind, killed millions of inocent people and enslaved human mind for centuries.
Our Brain is the most complexe structure in the known universe why should we be so stupid and use it to cultivate the worthless thougts and fantasies of uneducated Idiots like Constantin and Moses?
There is no soul no god and no eternal torment take responsibility for yourself ...or somone will do it for you.

[caliban]

[quote]caliban:--no CIRA here, but ramblings will be removed-- [/quote]

Since we are getting perilously close to that with the post above.
And since I promised Untnap a response:

Firstly, two preliminary points:

1) If you can solve this problem, you are much more enlightened than me. And I have yet to hear about it. Helpless ramblings about religions will not help. The question runs deeper than that. For those who shy away from the religion part: it is the question of whether Huxley's world is brave or which pill to take in 'The Matrix' .

2) I accept no arguments about the shortcomings of religion. They are missing the (my) point. I did not ask you "what do you think about religion?" I asked "why not really try God?"

Not lets get to the meat:

[quote]Utnapishtim: As a sidenote, I have seen few statistics on the extent to which religious beliefs contribute to personal happiness and how this changes with age. [/quote]

There are some, but as they bear the flaws of all statistics I will contend myself with the flaws of personal experience.

[quote]Utnapishtim: Is the 25 year old atheist notably less happy than the 25 year old religious person all other things being equal? [/quote]

No. The question ought to be is the 25 year old non-believer less happy. Atheists at this age can have all sorts of quaisi- religious beliefs. Socialism, Hedonism, their Girl/Boyfriends, their careers, the Singularity…

[quote]Utnapishtim: How about the 75 year old religious person vs the 75 year old atheist? [/quote]

Yess. That’s where it starts to get interesting. Ever worked in a nursing home? Ever seen the core clientele of a church? Talk to the elderly. The only reason they are not barking mad with fear is 1) pain 2) denial 3) God. As death becomes more imminent, 1) and 2) become less important. There are few atheists among the moribund. They are a dire lot.

[quote]Utnapishtim: ... that a truly rational educated mind is immune to the succor that religion can provide. [/quote]

A what? There is no such thing of course. There are varying forms of education. Whether education prevents one from enjoying succour is an interesting matter. The folly of Love? The depths of hate? The burning desire of ideology? I have yet to see evidence that these are warded of by education. The solcace of religion? Many educated people believe in a God.

[quote]Utnapishtim: I am far too egotistical and wrapped up wrapped up in the continuation of my own selfhood to draw comfort from reincarnation or nirvana.[/quote]

Well maybe you should grow then. Your because you do not have the peace of mind that is needed to be happy does not mean you cannot attempt to gain it. Its certainly not a quest any less valuable than the pursuit of money and status?


[quote]Lazarus Long Oh what the hell when lost at sea any port in a storm I suspect [/quote]

No port needed. Hope for a port alone would suffice to convince the sailors to tally on, would it not?

[quote]Lazarus Long But the limits of faith are reality, [/quote]
true
[quote]Lazarus Long reality is determined by reason, [/quote]
not true
[quote]Lazarus Long and reason is determined by choice.[/quote]
ouuhh very touchy that one. Did you know that our BJ is turning to Buddhism lately?

[quote]Lazarus Long drugs are easier than prayer. [/quote]
see above. Huxely called it "Soma" . You got any?


[quote]Mind: With science opening up so many of the mysteries of life and the universe it is getting much easier to believe in achieving physical immortality. I say it is getting harder to convince oneself of an immortal soul and afterlife[/quote]
[quote]JohnDoe Although the odds of physical immortality may be small, that does not imply that the odds of possessing an immortal soul are larger. [/quote]

Very good points. Although reiteration does not make them better.
So this is a personal balancing act? Bartering? Do I know so little about science, to be unaware of its promises? Or are you fooling yourselves?

There is a degree in foolishness in any hope. But to let the Pascal out of the box again:

on the one hand there is the faint hope of maybe living a few hundred years longer. On the other hand there is the hope for eternal love and meaning.

On the one hand there is hundreds of billions of dollars, hours and people that need to function in conjunction to make the dream come true.
On the other hand there is just you, able to make a decision NOW and be happy ever after.

Not much bartering there for most people.

[quote]Dutchman:There are numerous ways happiness can be achieved, even if the person believes that after death comes oblivion. [/quote]

Well if that is the case, then there is no argument. If we can be existentialistically happy, we don't need God, nor life extension. Sartre again?
Does not work for most.

[quote]Dutchman:why not REALLY try Man[/quote]

Hm. You guys have such a great time dissing religion. Try Man? I don’t know Dutchman. I am German.
...
oh so is this guy(nice to read from you again, John!) :

[quote]John Schloendorn: I believe, the fault in caliban's argument is that the pursuit of immortality is not aimed at increasing the good in our next couple of decades, but in all subsequent time.[/quote]

Maybe a trifle to succinct for me to understand. Lets see..

[quote]John Schloendorn: Premises: Good and bad exist[/quote]
I would seriously dispute that premise. If anything, there are varying degrees of "good"

[quote]John Schloendorn: This is an indefinite increase of expectable life time and thus also of expectable good.[/quote]

Sounds like an argument out of crudest Utilitarianism. Is goodness over time really cumulative? Plus I seem to have missed the step form "potentially" to "indefinite"

[quote]John Schloendorn: The faith in religion can only increase it in the next couple of decades, because after that time, faith becomes impossible, either by the knowledge that religion is true (which would also include immortalists), or by death. [/quote]

Hum? Well if "religion is true" why should that put an end to "goodness" ?

[quote]A941 :  Some Idiot said: "atheism is the suicide of the soul!" [/quote]
Someone very clever said: "Everybody has a God- shaped hole inside"

---

---

Now. Where Do I stand on this?

[quote]Utnapishtim: Had you been given the option of living and dying in a time and place where religious claims of immortality were plausible, would you have taken it?[/quote]

Oh absolutely. Lets negotiate the particulars though.

[quote]Utnapishtim: Finally, when confronted with the inevitability of personal extinction I feel that shouting my defiance from a mountaintop has more style [/quote]

There is a sign on the door of my house:
"Frog of the Hill"
...
lets cause some avalances

[Bruce Klein]

Caliban: Did you know that our BJ is turning to Buddhism lately?

Yep, I've been convinced lately that enlightenment is the only logical avenue to reaching true immortality.... and if you believe that one.. I have a ghost trapped in a bottle to sell ya.

[A941]

2) I accept no arguments about the shortcomings of religion. They are missing the (my) point. I did not ask you "what do you think about religion?" I asked "why not really try God?"

If we have to answer this Question then it is very important to look at the shortcomings of religion cause we are not able to say more about the influences of religion in Human life without a closer look at all the horrible things which have been done in the name of a God, prophet or what ever.

But ok, it is very easy to answer your question and to explain "why not really try god?"
At first i want to ask you: which God???
Marduk, Chernunos, Mitras, Zeus, Allah???
Which one ist the best? The christian Jesus? Really? Why?
Oh, and how do you know you would become immortal in this way?
Have you ever meet anyone who died and became immortal trough his/her believe in a god?
Whats with the Theodizee propblem?
Is this god a good god, or is he a cruel and sadistic maniac with no interest in your immortality?
I've read many so called holy books, and compared with Hitlers "Mein Kampf" they are much more dangerous, could they be given by a good and loving God?
And at last: trough six millenias no evidence for the existence of a god or similar beeings was found or discovered, we only have old legends and eye-wittness accounts of mentaly sick people.
Its not worth to dedicate your life to a great lie.

[Lothar]

Hello, poor Caliban,

one of my most important steps in my personal development was the experience, that normal religious (that means: christian) people don't REALLY believe in god and the immortality of the soul, if death is knocking at their door! They are just fearing death as 'normal' atheistic people too and so they are only dreaming phantastic dreams about the eternity of existence and life after death. Of course these dreams are very powerful because they are collective dreams for centuries and not only 'dreams' but very real in their connections with social structures, philosophy, economy, education, art and so on. You can explain the origin and development of traditional religion by social, psychological and social-psychological mechanisms, which build up just gigantic systems of consolation, not only the way Marx had characterized it as 'opium for the masses' because of all the injustices in the world but in the last sense because of the deep fear of death.

There may be some rare individuals, which have such a strong believe, that they even say 'yes' to death if they are confronted with (and not: saying yes to god because of the nearing death - this type of reaction may be 'normal' but also meaningless) but you can explain even such extreme phenomenons like arabian suicide bombers etc. by normal psychology. Anyway, strong 'believe' in the existence of what so ever does NOT mean, that this does REALLY exist! The way you describe the problem transforms a very unconscious phenomenon like traditional (western) religion into a nearly philosophical approach. But religion and theology are very different and it's the first one which produces the last one, not the other way round. Normal religious people don't make a rational decision for their believe like a player in rational choice theory if you don't regard some very exclusive persons in history like some literats, artists or philosophers. Religion through the ages is a mass phenomenon which is ruled by forces of mass-psychology, education, conformism and something similar.

It is very normal to get some depression or misery, if you are experiencing the bad and deadly sides of life, but this also does not mean, that religious systems get automatically TRUE. One of the central arguments against traditional religiousness, as you found it far instance in Bertrand Russells classic book 'Why I'm not a Christian', is, that it's NOT a matter of good or bad whether God exists but it's just a question of TRUTH.

And of course I also doubt the connection between happiness and religiousness like others before. May be you have not had a conventional religious socialisation and have never dealt with religious questions in your life before, because to see such a simple and one-dimensional connection is always a special kind of selective perception. World history would had been very different if that assumption would have been true.

Perhaps you read the chapter in Erich Fromms book 'The art of loving' about the love to god because there you will find an understanding of 'god' which is acceptable even for modern and rational people. (Fromm calls his position a 'non-theistic' point of view what is not the same like 'atheistic'.) May be it's some consolation for you if you need some. In general I don't think that you REALLY have the choice of getting a christian or muslim 'again' (?) - or a believer of a christian, jewish or muslime type of god - because those religions represent a historically former state of collective mind for which you are too intelligent and educated. (Can you believe in Santa Claus again because it was so fine to expect him on christmas... ...with all his presents and so on?)

Of course I could recommend you also some books of my 'Lieblingsguru', a word I can't translate in english because there are some related ironic aspects - 'most loved guru' sounds a little bit too earnest ;-) - but my personal decision for the way of physical immortality has to do with the insight, that every 'eastern' way of spiritual enlightenment is connected with the concept of reincarnation in one way or another. But reincarnation just means: physical immortality by constantly changing the body what seems to be not very elegant. Physical Immortality on the contrary means: the elegant way to enlightenment in THIS life, because enlightenment only happens 'here and now' as my 'Lieblingsguru' has pointed out... ...whenever this 'here and now' will be. May be we immortalists are a little bit slow, but who knows... ;-)))

In a way it's funny but normally it's a little bit too difficult for me to lead such a discussion in english.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany!
Lothar

Personal Advice: the use of pseudonyms like 'caliban' is a way of making a special kind of learning experience because it's not possible to become physical immortal without constantly changing your 'identity'. 'Everything's changes' esoteric ways are proclaiming (or some ancient greek philosopher), and we surely will not be able to reach the age of - let's say - 'only' 500 without making very deep changes on a psychological level. But there's a strong difference whether you are making such changes in a conscious or in an unconscious way. In my dictionary I read to 'caliban': 'half animal, half human' (but I suggest you're influenced by Shakespeares 'The tempest'??) Now, physical immortality is something which transcendents even man and therefore you must complete your humanity. Animals cannot become physical immortal.

_________________________________________________________________________
'New York, Tokio, Kioto, Triest... BERLIN!' (Peter Falk in the film 'Wings of desire' by Wim Wenders)

[bacopa]

Caliban you ask an interesting question. I've asked myself the same thing, "can I force myself to believe in God in order to achieve happiness." But as you well know many believers aren't particularly comforted by their religion but some are. But as Don Spanton said "I'd rather be a pig in s**t and know the truth than a fool believeing in some lie." Point is your not going to lie to yourself after all your interest in immortality and all the knowledge you know? If you do than I'd worry about you man! I mean I can see where you're coming from I picture in my mind some people who live the fairy tale of religion but you're so much cooler as you are right now... knowing the truth! Is that what it boils down to just wanting a good everlasting feeling? You're stronger than that, besides one can be an atheist and have purpose to thier lives that's been bothering me as of late, and sometimes I question meaning to anything but I've gotten past that I think. I just don't see how you could honestly think that tricking yourself into believing in God will solve this problem.

You might want to also question what you mean by "happiness." You seem smart enough to not need to rely on such simple definitiions. I'd assume happiness for you is as multi-faceted as it is for many people here so why would you need the mortality issue solved just so you can feel happy? IF you're talking about quality of happiness yes, I would agree that if I knew I was living much longer there would be certain ideas that I had given up on that might suddenly lighten up again, and knowing this is my one shot sure personally I wish I hadn't spent so much time being depressed etc. but I don't think being "englightened" or suddenly seeing God as a justification for me enjoying life again would be that much different than it is now for me. I have some die hard religious friends who aren't that much happier than me they just seem to exist in a different plain of weirdness that is actually more disturbing than it is enviable! You seem to want to find a mold of sorts to define your perhaps "first person point of view lifestyle" that you so enjoy which is commendable, but again religion won't necassarily do that for you. That's up to you. There are of course reasons why people choose to live the lives they do at least for the intelligent ones.

For most of us here I think more life would solve all our problems not more religion. Do you really want to feel that you're created by God anyways? I mean isnt' that just weird in of itself? I've been thinking about this. People always assume that if there is a God that somehow that solves all our problems that's BS man! I mean for maybe a day or two I'd be happy thinking about heaven and the fact that I'm such a cool creation "look at me," but after a while it would all seem too overdone as if I were in a bad 1950's sci-fi movie. Granted evolution is pretty weird as well but that kind of gives a cool immidiacy that you just don't get with religion! I mean all of our action hero archetypes of the western movie action genre fight their fights because of things other than God. They do it for their country, for their loved ones, for humanity etc. and they know they have to diffuse that bomb in 30 seconds or less or everyone will die. Well that's what life without God is like. Like a bomb that will shortly blow up and kill everybody and only a few remaining warriors fighting tooth and nail have a slim chance of survival else they will perish into oblivion never to be heard of again. And the remaining survivors will be forced to roam a post apocolyptic wasteland where the entrails of humanity ones flourished happily never to be heard of again. I mean Caliban isn't that the world you want? Ok I choose Budhism... Anyone want to join me in my newfound search? Anyone? Bueller? [huh]

Edited by dfowler, 08 December 2003 - 07:26 PM.

[DJS]

Why not really try God?

I would say because the evidence is not in his favor. Also, because the TRUTH is more important than a warm fuzzy feeling.

Are you a questioning person, or do you blindly believe what you are told? Do you require a world view that adds up? Does one's beliefs have to be rationally defendable. I think my position on these questions is clear.

And like Utna, I have also partaken of the "forbidden fruit". For me, there is no turning back, and I wouldn't want to even if I could. I am trying to find truth.
Personally, I find the potential outcome of Immortalism much more appealing than any promises that religion can offer me.

I also don't think that matters of faith are a conscious choice for most people. Either the cultural transmission of religious belief was successful or it was not. I have never believed. Not when I was 10, not when I was 20. I've never had mystical experiences or seen visions. Maybe I was a born skeptic. Or maybe I was nurture into my world view, maybe my mother should have nipped my fascination with dinosaurs in the bud when it started at the age of 4.

Asking Brights to try God is like asking a straight guy to "try" men for a while. You are asking the impossible.

[bacopa]

The bottom line is very simple the idea of God is wrought with mystisicm and fairy tale fantasy. I would rather choose a life of intelligent reasoning tied in with real empirical evidence than living a false belief. There is enough fantasy out there as is. I could rent a Disney movie or watch MTV. There is no rational reason in the universe to try to make yourself believe in something that "just ain't so" as my dad says. Unless you so desparately want to conform to a societal status quo, but than I would say that you have your priorities askew. One of the ideas behind this wonderful site is to find ways around the God issue. it is not stated in the rules of course, but it is implied by the people that come here. this can be looked at as a safe haven from religious hegemony. I think it is great that we have people here who are not afraid to challenge society if we have people here trying to jump back on the religious road to nowhere than I find that upsetting personally.

[Mind]

Why not really try God?

As others have alluded, once you open your mind to the scientific method you can't go back. The genie is out of the bottle with me. To "try god" would be to try delluding myself. So the question is not really just about "trying god", but is it worth it to dellude myself into believing something that cannot be reasonably proven. It could be any type of dellusion. I could be happy living in a dellusional fantasy world. If happiness is the goal - then delluding myself could be the answer. However, as I mentioned earlier, the genie is out of the bottle. I don't think I could force myself into a dellusional state.

[Mind]

Part of being in a delusional state is not knowing if you are. Maybe you are but don't realise it. No, just kidding.

Good point Ambro. There seems no way to find objective reality - it is subjective to each of us. I just expect my dellusions to be reasonable with respect to what my senses and mind can quantify.

[caliban]

--no CIRA here, but ramblings will be removed--

I had it coming, hm?
http://imminst.org/f...st=0#entry20058

[Lothar]

It is very astonishing for me that you are continuing this discussion after such a long time since my last post above, especially in these days, because I'm just working on the third number of my online-magazine - FOREVER - which is dealing with these religious topics. And I'm very sorry that I don't have the time and the capacities to translate it into English, so I have to shorten it.

Just in the last days I wrote the title-story about a new understandig of the christian religion in terms of physical immortality. I see 'God' as a traditional symbol and origin of the principle of immortality, on the other hand there a millions of modern people all over the western world, which have lost there traditional religion and are NO followers of modern concepts of physical immortality or longevity. I call them the death-believers, and I'm not sure which part of the society is the more dangerous one. Now, the difference between christianity and other traditional religions - besides taoism - lies exactly in the physical aspect and you can read the bible in this perspective: Adam and Eve had been physical immortal before they commited sin, Jesus Christ ressurected physically after his crucification and the promise is that everyone who believes in him can get ressurected also. In this view the modern concepts of physical immortality are not against christian religion but in a certain way they are the fulfilling of it! At least you can interpretate central christian ideas as a symbolish anticipation of actual concepts of longevity/immortality and for me it is not by coincidence that western society, science and modern medicine derived from the decay of THIS tradition and not from another.

So I propose a different kind of view of dealing with the religious tradition. Instead of leading a fruitless fight we should reinterpretate the central ideas of it. As I had already written in my last post long ago, in my experience normal religious people are not really against the concepts of saving and prolonging life if they are confrontated with death in a direct and existential way. They are fighting the idea of physical immortality just because they haven't the faith to believe in new means to achieve it, and you will NEVER succeed in convincing someone by just criticizing him, if he has not enough faith! Building up faith is nothing which functions by criticizing. In other words: if we are proposing the idea of physical immortality WE have to prove that it is really possible and on the contrary all the critics have the power of death all through the ages on their side and we should not underestimate this force! It's easy to say that someone is 'irrational' or anything like that but it's very hard to be REALLY constructive in a substantial and not speculative way, because we are proposing something which is NOT possible or selfevident until now.

On the other hand even if we become physical immortal by stoping the process of aging this does NOT mean that we have abolished death in general! Physical immortality leads just to 'relative' immortality but traditional religion is promising ABSOLUTE immortality. This is another reason why the religious tradition will not vanish so fast or - may be - in general. On the one hand that implies some fundamental weakness in the relation to traditional religiousness, on the other hand we could turn this weakness into a strength if we accept our own borders and concentrate on all the constructive points we really could achieve. So, instead of hoping of its vanishing we should work on the transformation of the FORM of religion, where science is a vital part of it.

The last point: rational people tend to an attitude whether to be in favour of a traditional concept of 'god' or religiousness is something theoretically. Everything we know about the religious socialication leads to a different kind of insight: the stronger points of traditional religions have very much to do with psychological factors. Normally christian people are growing up in christian FAMILIES and get there religious beliefs in very deep relationships by there parents and so on. So: religion is not as strong as it is because of their theories and theologies but because of the forces of their communities in every day life! If the movement for physical immortality wants to grow we also will have to build up communities in real life, not only in the internet. This also has something to do with the word 'physical' in physical immortality, because I always find it very strange to stay on a virtual and abstract level with SUCH a central topic.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany!

Lothar

[tbeal]

yeah clearly he took the wrong pill sice both worlds are 'real' but he just put himself in the worst one. yes you probably would have a better life if you beleived in spritual immortality - but it would prevent you from being able to support our effort towards immortality and therefore would increase the chance of your life actually being shorter - and it would probably be hard to convince yourself.

[Lothar]

Hello Treon and tbeal,

are the last two posts from you above adressed to ME, because I have some difficulties in understanding?? I did not mention the term 'spiritual' immortality or have written something about just 'believing' in traditional religious concepts. It was just one of my most astonishing observations in the last years, that christian religion has a deep physical aspect in the core of its belief system, what is very different to other religious traditions and what must have a lot of consequences for a new and modern movement for physical immortality. The rest I'v already written in my last post.

Greetings
Lothar

[tbeal]

no I was more referring to the posts before yours in this dicussion since at the time I was too lazy to read your post (sorry)