• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Bacopa?


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 boilerroom

  • Guest
  • 88 posts
  • 2

Posted 16 May 2006 - 10:42 PM


I recently began Bacopa and am willing to give it up to four months to see results (I don't take many supplements and am fairly confident I can feel minor effects). However, most studies are very unconvincing. The main study (12 week and 5 week study) showing positive results only included about twenty people. I recently started thinking about whether Bacopa and adaptogens, such as Rhodiola, actually do improve memory and recall or whether they simply allow people to better handle stressful situations. Does anyone else feel Bacopa is simply a slow-acting, long-lasting adaptogen and improved test scores in the study are merely a result of those test-takers handling the stressful situation better? Does anyone think stress is an important variable that is ignored in cognition studies???

#2 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:13 PM

However, most studies are very unconvincing. The main study (12 week and 5 week study) showing positive results only included about twenty people.


Hmm. I was able to find a double-blind placebo controlled trial that used 76 healthy adult volunteers in 2002. I don't think I've seen this study cited anywhere.

Neuropsychopharmacology. 2002 Aug;27(2):279-81.  Related Articles, Links

    Chronic effects of Brahmi (Bacopa monnieri) on human memory.

    Roodenrys S, Booth D, Bulzomi S, Phipps A, Micallef C, Smoker J.

    Department of Psychology, University of Wollongong, Woolongong, Australia. steven_roodenrys@uow.edu.au

    A study is reported on the effects of Brahmi (Bacopa monniera) on human memory. Seventy-six adults aged between 40 and 65 years took part in a double-blind randomized, placebo control study in which various memory functions were tested and levels of anxiety measured. There were three testing sessions: one prior to the trial, one after three months on the trial, and one six weeks after the completion of the trial. The results show a significant effect of the Brahmi on a test for the retention of new information. Follow-up tests showed that the rate of learning was unaffected, suggesting that Brahmi decreases the rate of forgetting of newly acquired information. Tasks assessing attention, verbal and visual short-term memory and the retrieval of pre-experimental knowledge were unaffected. Questionnaire measures of everyday memory function and anxiety levels were also unaffected.

    Publication Types:

        * Clinical Trial
        * Randomized Controlled Trial


    PMID: 12093601 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

They used 300-450mg of bacopa extract for three months. Only one out of eight measures of mental performance were improved significantly by the bacopa. In fact, looking at the results, there is a trend for reduced performance in most of the other measures in the bacopa group, although not significant. [mellow]

Attached Files



sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:38 PM

If you don't mind oversized fonts and many different colors; see this:

http://nootropics.ip...hp?showtopic=24

Peace.

#4 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:50 PM

You reference three human studies in the provided forum link:

1) The first study is the one boilerroom was talking about originally -- the single most promising study that is referenced by every bacopa vendor.

2) The second larger and more recent human study is the one my above post examines, and may indicate a slightly negative effect of bacopa when the results are taken as a whole (someone please correct me if I'm misinterpreting the results... Opales?).

3) The third study demonstrates bacopa has no acute effect one way or the other on cognitive performance.

4) The rest of the studies are in rats and are much less relevant than the human data.

I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible, and I have to agree with boilerroom here -- the evidence that bacopa is an effective cognitive enhancer in humans is not very strong.

#5 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:58 PM

You are correct: the evidence is not very strong. However, bacopa his very safe and has been in clinical use for thousands of years in India.

I am convinced it is an effective antioxidant in the brain. To what extent does this effect increase "intelligence?" Probably not that much. A measurable effect? Maybe.

#6 Da55id

  • Guest
  • 436 posts
  • 6
  • Location:Springfield, va
  • NO

Posted 17 May 2006 - 08:54 PM

I feel that it works well as an anti-anxiolitic. It takes 2 weeks for the effects to show up. After having gone off it for a couple weeks and then going back on, the beneficial effect seems quite real in my case. I also do feel but cannot quantify improved thinking ability and with much less fatigue.

#7 xanadu

  • Guest
  • 1,917 posts
  • 8

Posted 17 May 2006 - 09:06 PM

If the effect of bacopa on the other parameters was not significant, then it means nothing. Trying to read into tiny variations that are smaller than the margin of error is a waste of time. The correct conclusion is that it had a significant positive effect on memory and other factors were unchanged.

#8 boilerroom

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 88 posts
  • 2

Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:07 PM

I'm starting to think Indian researchers are EXTREMELY biased towards Bacopa. I don't know why, but it could possibly be that they take it themselves or realize India itself has a vested interest in the herb. I will be purchasing Ashwagandha soon because it has actually been effective in regard to neurogenesis. I'll continue to take Bacopa for a couple months, but I'm too strapped for money to take unproven supplements.

#9 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 18 May 2006 - 12:46 AM

That is good thinking, boilerroom -- but I think this one is worth taking. These first two trials (with excellent results) were not performed by Indian researchers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11498727

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12093601

I'll hype the use of Bacopa! We have data from two separate double blind, controlled human trials -- and at least as many animal trials -- that indicate memory performance might improve without any serious side effects -- and it happens to have been used clinically for a few thousand years safely...and without any serious side effects...

It's not too expensive either -- so as long as it's correctly standardized to the proper bacoside a/b content, it looks like a good way to go. I ordered some of this, but Sabinsa had none of the 50% in the USA -- so they have to airlift more of it in. I'm sure AOR's or Jarrow's brands are properly standardized.

#10 opales

  • Guest
  • 892 posts
  • 15
  • Location:Espoo, Finland

Posted 18 May 2006 - 09:19 AM

2) The second larger and more recent human study is the one my above post examines, and may indicate a slightly negative effect of bacopa when the results are taken as a whole (someone please correct me if I'm misinterpreting the results... Opales?).


Hmmm, I can't say I'm seeing a negative trend, but definitely not a positive but non-significant trend either, results seemed to be distributed fairly equally. However, the only significantly positive result was *very* weak, analysis sounded a little post-hoc to me as it was actually a subtest of a subtest (*difference* between last learning session and delayed recall of word pairs), and even then the significance barely reached .05. When you administer such a variety of tests (depending on how you count it, up to 15-20) and get one barely significant result and other tests (of which some tested very similar abilities like the story recall) do not show anything like a positive overall trend, it appears to me that the results are better explained by random variance than any actual effect.

John's commentary on magnet studies seems relevant here in term of analysis:
http://www.imminst.o...=pid&pid=106530

Edited by opales, 18 May 2006 - 09:38 AM.


#11 opales

  • Guest
  • 892 posts
  • 15
  • Location:Espoo, Finland

Posted 18 May 2006 - 09:35 AM

I am convinced it is an effective antioxidant in the brain.


So?

#12 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:08 PM

It makes sense that Adam Kamil is saying that bacopa works even though the studies don't really support this........because he SELLS IT!

[sfty]

#13 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:33 PM

More evidence of no cognitive benefit:

Hum Psychopharmacol. 2004 Mar;19(2):91-6.  Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Effects of a combined extract of Ginkgo biloba and Bacopa monniera on cognitive function in healthy humans.

    Nathan PJ, Tanner S, Lloyd J, Harrison B, Curran L, Oliver C, Stough C.

    Neuropsychopharmacology Laboratory, Brain Sciences Institute, Swinburne University, Victoria, Australia. pnathan@bsi.swin.edu.au

    Extracts of Ginkgo biloba and Bacopa monniera have been shown to produce positive effects on cognitive function in healthy subjects. While the exact mechanisms are not known, it has been suggested that antioxidant properties and cholinergic modulation may play a role. In the current study the sub-chronic (2 weeks) and chronic (4 weeks) effects of an extract containing Ginkgo biloba (120 mg) and Bacopa monniera (300 mg) (Blackmores Ginkgo Brahmi) on cognitive function were examined. The study was a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, independent group design in which 85 healthy subjects were allocated to one of two treatment conditions (placebo or combined Ginkgo biloba and Bacopa monniera extract). Testing was conducted at baseline and 2 and 4 weeks post treatment. The results showed that the combined extract relative to placebo did not demonstrate any significant effects on tests investigating a range of cognitive processes including attention, short-term and working memory, verbal learning, memory consolidation, executive processes, planning and problem solving, information processing speed, motor responsiveness and decision making. These findings suggest that at least within the current treatment duration and doses, an extract containing Ginkgo biloba and Bacopa monniera had no cognitive enhancing effects in healthy subjects. Copyright 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

    Publication Types:

        * Clinical Trial
        * Randomized Controlled Trial


    PMID: 14994318 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



#14 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:01 PM

How about there are other benefits even if it does zero for improved cognition?

If it isn't posted here somewhere I believe there is evidence on bacopa protecting the hippocampus from stress. Even if rats the potential risk to benefit would be worth it for me.

#15 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:15 PM

It makes sense that Adam Kamil is saying that bacopa works even though the studies don't really support this........because he SELLS IT!

[sfty]


Good thinking zoolander; yes, I happen to sell Bacopa -- so does that mean I cannot contribute to discussion on the topic? Unfortunately, the 50% extract that I prefer to sell Sabinsa is currently out of stock on, so I don't have any available. I'll let you guys know when I do have it back in stock by linking you to the new COA. I only will have one size, which is 100 grams for about $27.

Here is the old COA: http://nootropics.ip...-1117064084.jpg

Eliminating potential sources of bias is a good way to determine what is truth and what is not. I believe in what I sell, believe it or not -- why shouldn't I hype the stuff I sell if I think it works?

I also contributed to discussions on curcumin, R-ALA/R-DHLA, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Piracetam, etc -- I sell these too! So...your point is? I used results of controlled clinical trials to promote the use of Bacopa in healthy people. And I proudly sell it.

[thumb]

#16 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:33 PM

All Funk's cited study suggests is that 300 mg "Bacopa" does not work. Or maybe just the combination of ginkgo and bacopa don't work together; or the dose of bacopa could be too low. Also -- they do not seem to mention what percent bacosides the bacopa was standardized to. Or how exactly it was standardized. Standardization is an major issue of concern for producers of botanical products -- and if the company does not state their methodology, it's a toss up if they got it right. That's why I prefer to use Sabinsa's products. As I may have mentioned before, they have World Health Organization (WHO) and OU (Orthodox Union Kosher) certification on their whole operation -- and are considered among the most respected producers of botanical products and specialty chemicals in the entire world.

Posted Image

Here is a link to the bacopin website: http://www.bacopin.com/

Once again, a commercial statment from their current president, Todd Norton.

What are the major problems with quality control facing the natural products industry?

Todd Norton, president, Sabinsa Corp.: One--the lack of generally accepted assay methods and reporting of active ingredient percentages. There is a significant problem in this industry with companies buying ingredients and relying solely on what is reported on the product certificate of analysis to assure quality. Some ingredients report an assay based on HPLC, and others report it based on UV or gravimetric or something else. Either way, the results are bound to differ. Take guggul extract, for example. Sabinsa offers a minimum 2.5 percent Guggulsterone Z&E content in our Gugulipid product, as shown in clinical studies to be responsible for therapeutic benefits. We measure our guggulsterone content by HPLC to be precise. We compete against other generic guggul extracts that claim to offer 10 percent guggulsterones, yet when pressed on the method of analysis used to determine this percentage, the answer is either by UV, or "I don't know." So, what levels of guggulsterone Z&E do they really contain? And what is it exactly that constitutes the 10 percent assay? Now let's fast forward to the retail shelf. If two guggul products are side by side and one claims 10 percent while the other claims 2.5 percent guggulsterones, assuming they are similarly priced, which one will the consumer likely buy? Some manufacturers, when seeking the higher potency listed on a competitor's label then feel compelled to modify their product also. Does anybody along the way ask the question whether the jump to a higher assay is practical, necessary or possible in the first place? Sadly, the matter is best summed up by a comment made by industry consultant Jay Jacobowitz: "It's remarkable that in our industry it is 'news' when potency matches label claims."

Two--the lack of substantiated agreement on what actives are responsible and in what percentages for certain health benefits in botanicals. Look no further than to the media-beating this industry took over St. John's wort not long ago. After all, as long as it's St. John's wort, it's all the same, isn't it?

And third--too much downward pressure on pricing. I am a firm believer that in most instances you get what you pay for. The trend toward constantly chasing the lowest price is taking an adverse toll on product quality. What is basically happening is the barriers to entry to be a supplier of ingredients keep getting lowered, yet industry manufacturers increasingly expect suppliers to provide more documentation, product testing and marketing support. This is an inverse relationship, and it only can last for so long before something gives.

My father worked in the poultry industry for nearly 20 years. His company adopted the following motto and I think it is appropriate: "The bitterness of poor quality will remain long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." Sound words of wisdom for any industry, especially one professing to transform the "snake oil" persona that shows up repeatedly in the mass media. Quality, or the lack thereof, does come with a price. It is up to the industry to decide where they will pay.

What types of QC certifications do you hold?
Sabinsa is the sales and marketing arm for our manufacturing operation SAMI Labs Inc., which is located outside the United States. SAMI Labs recently obtained World Health Organization (WHO) certification for its manufacturing operations.

How did you determine whether to hold a QC certification, and what does it offer you and your customers in the marketplace?

Sabinsa has a number of agents worldwide that represent our product line, many of which are affiliated with the European Union. We felt that WHO certification would best serve our diverse customer base and be universally recognized in the major international markets where we have a presence.

What do you do to ensure the quality of the raw materials you supply?

People need to remember that we are dealing with plant products that can, and do, change depending on which region they come from and the season in which the are harvested. The Sabinsa/SAMI operation is 100 percent vertically integrated. In some instances we control the cultivation of certain botanicals, and go so far as to provide our farmers with the seedling plants to ensure the right species is grown. When purchasing raw materials from outside sources, such as small villages or collection groups, we have a procurement team that travels with a portable testing equipment to quickly assess the identity and potency. If further testing is required we send the materials to our lab in the corporate office. Based on these results we either purchase or we dont.


What types of tests do you conduct on raw materials, and how do you determine the testing methods used?

The first thing to do is confirm with an identity test, usually thin layer chromatography (TLC), that you have the correct species of plant. Once confirmed, and before production begins on any of our standardized extracts, we first determine the assay value of our starting material. From here we can determine if any modifications are required to our manufacturing process. The whole idea of a standardized botanical extract is to provide the same percentage of active constituents from batch to batch. Testing the finished material varies depending on what the product is standardized for. Wherever possible an HPLC method of analysis is recommended due to the high degree of accuracy and reproducibility it offers. This is a good method to use when you want to identify a specific compound. Some products, however, contain a mixture of compounds that provide the activity. The methods generally used for testing in these instances are UV spectrophotometry or gravimetric. These methods identify compounds that are similar in chemical structure, thereby giving a cumulative percentage of their presence in the material. The methodology used is a function what you are testing for in the product. There are also other sophisticated methods and equipment available that can test for things like residual solvents and pesticide levels.


Edited by nootropikamil, 18 May 2006 - 06:51 PM.


#17 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:40 PM

I guess I wasn't pointing out anything that people didn't know. You have the same rights as anyone else here to post what ever you wish.

So what is my point? You state that you are convinced that bacopa is an effective antioxidant in the brain but the research does not conclusively support this. I have noticed that alot of your posts/replies are indirectly marketing products that you sell.

Once again, you have the same rights as anyone else here to post what you wish. I have a little bit of a beef with the sort of marketing I mentioned above. That's why I tend to come accross strong

#18 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:47 PM

Yeah, supplement stuff is amng my hobbies. I may appear more excited than others about it, so it might come across strange. I really don't make a living selling them -- swear on my life. I got into this because I felt way sketched out about lack of QC in this business and dealt with way too many shady suppliers to not find my own sources for life-extension and nootropic type supplements.

With Bacopa, we have data from animals and humans that suggest it works for healthy folks. I never said the benefits were amazing, just that Bacopa seems to be a brain antioxidant.

It also is very safe and has been used for thousands of years in India, so I don't see where one can go wrong taking bacopa. Unless one is on a limited budget and is looking for a particularly noticeable boost.

As I mentioned, AOR sells this product as well in capsules (and I am sure enough of their quality to recommend their product).

Also folks who don't want Sabinsa's bulk powder product, they can always go buy a generic powder from other sources.

P.S. Check out this page: http://www.bacopin.com/chemical.htm

Edited by nootropikamil, 18 May 2006 - 07:18 PM.


sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#19 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 18 May 2006 - 07:20 PM

Also: zoolander: both the double blind studies I cited were from Australian researchers...so I thought bias would go more your way toward Bacopa...it's good to see you are trying to remain objective. ;)




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users