10 replies to this topic

[jimena]

I just started on hydragine yesterday, 4.5 mg 2x day, and today I started on Deprenyl, 2.5 mg. I don't make a habit of trying 2 new things simultaneously, but I'm in dire need of something to increase my motivation. I have fibromyalgia syndrome from toxic overload- heavy metals + chemicals, and I am using an infrared sauna to help detox, as well as the following supplements:
DNA Vitamins Ultra Multivitamins and Minerals
Milk Thistle
I3C with flax lignans
Hyaluronic Acid
Magnesium
Potassium
Malic Acid
D-ribose
DMAE with Inositol, PABA, and B vitamins
Vitex (Agnus Castus)
Black Cohosh

Lately I've been having a pretty bad flare-up, with muscle pain and fatigue, which has dampened my motivation quite a bit. And, as luck would have it, I have quite alot going on right now, so resting patiently until I feel better is out of the question.

I was wondering if my dosages of hydragine and Deprenyl look alright. I've read about people taking 5 mg. of Deprenyl- I just don't want to overdo it, especially since I just started on the hydragine.

I also tried Huperzine-A for week or so, a couple of weeks ago, but I'm pretty sure it precipitated a flare-up, so I've left that for now.

Any advice would be very much appreciated!
Cheers,
Elizabeth

[jubai]

At the risk of sounding like a broken tape machine to the forum members, I will give you my #1 suggestion, especially appropriate in your case. Get yourself a real juice extractor (like the omega 8005 - I am not a vendor, just a satisfied customer) and drink the juice of 6-10 organic, fresh vegetables twice a day. I've had a moderate mercury overload (from fillings + braces + teeth grinding), and this has helped me out the most, combined with a ALA-DMSA-Selenium-etc therapy (which is for mercury).

Consider probiotics enemas and colonics to flush out your system, as toxic metals tend to get stuck "on the way out" in fecal and plaque deposits.

When you've done this enough, consider sensible fasting (all liquid/organic, for not too long etc) to get rid of the rest.

Those 2 last sentences could take you years, so read them again, haha




As for the dosages, huperzine looks like a moderate dosage, although personaly I don't like this supp that much, seems like taking it long term isn't 100% safe either. How does it help with toxic overload???

Deprenyl is 1-10 mg a day of the liquid form, depending on age. I assume 2.5mg is of the tablet form, which is less absorbable, so this comes to a low dosage of 1-2 mg a day for you, good for age 25-40 approximately.

Still, I believe Deprenyl should be cycled, as long term effects of an irrerversible MAO-B innhibitor are, well, you know. We don't know.

If you feel yourself getting manic, overmotivated, insomniac, then stop the Deprenyl.


May I suggest you add R-Alpha lipoic acid (100-400mg a day) and Idebenone (anti-oxydants) to your supps regimen? ALA has been proved to help for chelation, at least for mercury. Can't hurt.

Good luck.


HOLA

Hey, your doctor DID tell you about DMSA (sulfur-dimercaptyl-something) right? This is pretty much one of the only things that will remove mercury AND other metals like lead, cadnium etc??? You NEED this if you want to be cleansed

[arcticjoe]

I would also recommend NAC for your antioxidant / heavy metal cleansing needs, I've been using this for 2 weeks and I've not felt this well physically for a few years. Even after a very heavy weekend I feel healthy and normal, just like in my teenage years.

[jimena]

Thanks for your quick replies.
Jubai, the Hup-A was actually to try to help my brain fog, not for detox.
We have recently started up an organic veg garden, and even bought a juicer...all I needed was the "nudge" to make sure I use it every day- thanks for that.
The good doc I had was Stateside, before we moved back to Spain. Unfortunately, it's pretty unlikely I'll find someone around here who would know about the DMSA IV protocols, but I'll look. I do have a great dentist who has been very carefully removing my amalgams.
Articjoe, I have been taking NAC while I was using Tylenol for pain, to replace glutathione levels in the liver. I'll start on it again- how much do you suggest?
Thanks again to you both for your help.

[FunkOdyssey]

May I suggest you add R-Alpha lipoic acid (100-400mg a day) and Idebenone (anti-oxydants) to your supps regimen? ALA has been proved to help for chelation, at least for mercury. Can't hurt.

R-ALA won't hurt, but Idebenone could. I would not recommend that anyone in good health supplement with idebenone, because it increases mitochondrial free radical generation and could potentially accelerate your rate of aging. MR's well-articulated argument to this effect, with ample reference and links to further discussion, can be found here:

http://www.imminst.o...hl=idebenone&s=

[arcticjoe]

I take a somewhat large dose of around 2g NAC a day, spread out with meals. Its very cheap in powdered form and probably one of the more effective supps I have used (in fact i stopped taking piracetam, pyritinol, hydergine and bacopa because in my subjective opinion NAC feels more effective in regards to improved congition than all of these.).

[arcticjoe]

This thread over at m&m has a lot more information on how NAC supplementation may be beneficial for fibromyalgia syndrome.
http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=18925

[doug123]

jubai or anyone else who claims that selegiline citrate has better bioavailability than selegiline hcl

Can you point me to the studies that confirm liquid deprenyl is more bioavailable? I couldn't find any.

Interesting read here:
http://www.epa.gov/f...ay-03/g8517.htm

One of the reasons why selegiline citrate was never approved by FDA is because there were no any studies regarding it's bioavailability. In fact if you google for "selegiline citrate" and bioavailability or "deprenyl citrate" and bioavailability you'll only find this link (and few other that only mention above words but have no additional explanation)

One of the main reason individuals choose liquid over a pill is for titration in amounts other than multiples of 2.5mg.

See the widely-misrepresented results with deprenyl:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

Deprenyl is often cited as a counterexample, but it really isn't. Yes, Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality. Flat ad hominem: Knoll had the patent on the stuff. See the desperate attempts to reconcile the data between different studies on pp. 3-8, esp. the lifespan discussions on pp 7-8, of (1). Much of this info (but without, alas, the unpublished stuff sumarized in (1)) is put in a tabular form in (2), which makes the fundamental lack of anything like a logical pattern in the results clear. IMO, this shows pretty clearly that even if you believe there's something to it as a life-extension drug, there is just no way that one can rationally USE it as such at this time as there is no basis upon which to reasonably extrapolate a dose which can be expected to consistently extend even AV'G LS in humans.

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:
http://groups.google.....4A@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....BC@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....84@aimnet.com

http://bmj.com/cgi/c...ll/317/7153/252
http://bmj.com/cgi/c...l/316/7139/1191
http://groups.google...m&output=gplain
(The first 3 largely go over the same ground, albeit from slightly
different angles; the others cover newer material).

A recent editorial comment on the study from which the last post is
abstracted:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)." The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

It doesn't appear to give any reliable benefits in animal systems; it seems to kill the folks it's designed to TREAT; I just do not see how the risk:benefit calculation can be fudged to make it come out in favor of use by young, healthy people.

-Michael

1. Kitani K, Minami C, Isobe K, Maehara K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Why (--)deprenyl prolongs survivals of experimental animals: increase of anti-oxidant enzymes in brain and other body tissues as well as mobilization of various humoral factors may lead to systemic anti-aging effects.
Mech Ageing Dev. 2002 Apr 30;123(8):1087-100. Review.
PMID: 12044958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Kitani K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Assessing the effects of deprenyl on longevity and antioxidant defenses in
different animal models.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1998 Nov 20;854:291-306. Review.
PMID: 9928438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Keaney M, Matthijssens F, Sharpe M, Vanfleteren J, Gems D.
Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but
do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jul 15;37(2):239-50.
PMID: 15203195 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Huang TT, Carlson EJ, Gillespie AM, Shi Y, Epstein CJ.
Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life
span in mice.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2000 Jan;55(1):B5-9.
PMID: 10719757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[jubai]

I remember seeing this many times on the forum so assumed it to be true. I KNOW i have seen some 24-30 years old around here taking 2.5mg to 5mg a day of the solid form, and I KNOW than at this age, if I take more than 2 drops I get side effects like high blood pressure and manic state, so...

In any cases, 2.5mg might be a bit much depending on age, just be careful

Thanks for the idebenone, I didn't know about it.


As for the DMSA, you do NOT need to have it IVed (which might be dangerous if you ask me, as chelation is a long term affair. Passing a huge amount of metals because of an IV dose seems like a bad idea to me).

DMSA can be bought online

The protocol I have seen and used (and cited by "experts" like Andy Cutler) is to take small doses of DMSA (start at 25mg) every 4 hours, along with some ALA. He suggested to wake up at night to take it, as regularity of the chelator in the blood is crucial for good detox and not just boucing around the metals in your body, which is damageable.

Do cycle of 3 days ON / 4 days off. Up the dosage(50mg a dose, then 100mg a dose...) when you don't get side effects (headaches, head pressure / pulling, vomiting etc, you know the drill).

Combine with good anti-oxydants (Ester-C is needed too), Zinc, Selenium and a good multi-vitaming (DMSA will also chelate good minerals from your body, you have to get them back again! )

You will need 10-100 cycles to really flush your system, but even after 3-4 you might notice positive effects on your mood and behavior.

Edited by jubai, 24 May 2006 - 02:25 PM.