3083 replies to this topic

[pamojja]

Why Oral Ascorbic Acid Combined with IV C is the Ultimate Two-Pronged Attack That Will Turn the Tide on COVID-19 Pandemic – DorisLite Version 

By Doris Loh

[Izan]

Apologies if this has been posted already. I personally can't keep up with the information storm.

There is a strong (p < 1%) correlation between countries which have longstanding BCG tuberculosis vaccine programs for babies and those which have markedly lower expansion rates of COVID19 infection, even after correcting for wealth-per-capita. There is also, at least, a reasonable theoretical basis for the hypothesis of a causative relationship, namely that the vaccine seems to confer cross-immunity to some other respiratory diseases: "Additionally, a study in Guinea-Bissau found that children vaccinated with BCG were observed to have a 50% reduction in overall mortality, which was attributed to the vaccine’s effect on reducing respiratory infections and sepsis."

The vaccine is cheap and has a well documented and generally tame side effect history. The worst risk seems to be rare infective issues (as it's a live attenuated bacterium), which can be easily detected and treated.

 

If the causation hypothesis is bunk, then you end up with partial immunity to TB and said other diseases.

To get the paper, you need to use the black magic of Sci Hub:

Go to https://sci-hub.tw

Search for:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.24.20042937v1

Click "Download PDF" at right.
 

Yes, thank you. I posted the study a page back.

 

I stumbled upon this study as well:

 

Higher serum zinc levels = better respons from the BCG vaccine.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26980500

 

 

and this:

 

Status of zinc in pulmonary tuberculosis.

 

BACKGROUND: To study the status of zinc as a micronutrient in pulmonary tuberculosis, in our population, with the aim to see the effectiveness of therapy. METHODOLOGY: This prospective study includes 50 patients with pulmonary tuberculosis and 30 subjects as the control group. The patients were placed into three stages (1 to 3) on the basis of chest radiographic findings. Serum zinc levels were estimated before, during, and after completion of antituberculosis therapy. RESULTS: Statistically significant fall in serum zinc levels was seen with advanced age and disease, and the levels improved after initiation of antituberculosis therapy. CONCLUSION: Estimation of serum zinc levels is an important tool in diagnosis and monitoring of response to treatment in pulmonary tuberculosis, and even a booster of the immunological mechanisms if instituted during the course of treatment.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19759506

 

 

Vitamin A and zinc deficiencies among tuberculosis patients in Ethiopia

 

 

 

Results

In this study, 62 TB cases and 59 controls were included. The proportions of vitamin A deficiency among TB cases and controls were 56.4% and 39.0%, respectively. All TB cases and 92.5% controls were zinc deficient. The odds of TB cases with deficiencies of vitamin A and zinc was 2.3 (95% CI: 1.1 to 4.8)times more likely as compared to the controls. More than 80% of all participants had below average fulfilment of energy and vitamin A intakes.

https://www.scienced...405579418300263

 

 

 

Guys, i'm not trying to link zinc with everything. But Dorian really opened up my eyes. I still can not proof this, but I am of the opinion that if your serum zinc levels are in the optimal range, then you will not notice much from Covid-19, certainly no severe lung infections or anything, because this amazing element covers so many angles.

 

I know, it can be a pretty dangerous statement for me to make, but I'm quite positive.

 

I didn't even know up until a month ago that your vitamin d levels depend on how much zinc you have floating around in your body.

 

Look a this study for instance.   It was done in Iran.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5307609/

 

''Some previous studies have shown that both Zinc (Zn) and VitD deficiency are prevalent in Iran. ''

 

 

Iran has been devastated by Covid-19 as we all know.

Edited by izan82, 31 March 2020 - 01:11 PM.

[lancebr]

So has anyone heard of any new data or research about up-regulating or down-regulating ACE2 expression?

 

It seems you have two different thoughts about this with some doctors/researchers saying you need to

down-regulate ACE2, while you have other doctors/researchers saying you need to up-regulate ACE2.

 

So which theory is correct?

[thompson92]

So has anyone heard of any new data or research about up-regulating or down-regulating ACE2 expression?

 

It seems you have two different thoughts about this with some doctors/researchers saying you need to

down-regulate ACE2, while you have other doctors/researchers saying you need to up-regulate ACE2.

 

So which theory is correct?

 

I've explained several times that upregulation is desired.  You can go look at my previous posts in this thread.

[Mind]

Why Oral Ascorbic Acid Combined with IV C is the Ultimate Two-Pronged Attack That Will Turn the Tide on COVID-19 Pandemic – DorisLite Version 

By Doris Loh

 

I am all for any solution to this pandemic, including high dose Vitamin C. I have yet to see case reports or any numbers of recovered patients. When I check all of the links being posted here, all I get is "it works really well". Dose anyone have any better data. How many patients treated vs. how many recovered. Age ranges. Severity of symptoms.

[lancebr]

In the newest release by Masterjohn it is his belief that the virus now starts its infection

in the mouth/throat and then eventually moves down to the lungs.

 

He is recommending using copper and zinc sprays in your mouth and as nasal sprays.

 

With all the studies that show that copper is detrimental to the brain and even potentially

raises the risk for Alzheimer....is it wise to be spraying copper up your nose?

 

Also, wouldn't you have to be spraying zinc and copper in your mouth and nose a lot

through out the day to keep the levels up in those area for any substantial amount of time

to protect those areas from a virus.

Edited by lancebr, 31 March 2020 - 03:35 PM.

[pamojja]

I am all for any solution to this pandemic, including high dose Vitamin C. I have yet to see case reports or any numbers of recovered patients.

 

Huston we have a problem. There are no clinical trials with high dose vitamin C, those as IV in China starting now will take months to complete. And are again at least half the dose what is usually give per IV.

 

Here a very recent review of the evidence we do have for vitamin C:

 

 

Vitamin C and Infections

Abstract

In the early literature, vitamin C deficiency was associated with pneumonia. After its identification, a number of studies investigated the effects of vitamin C on diverse infections. A total of 148 animal studies indicated that vitamin C may alleviate or prevent infections caused by bacteria, viruses, and protozoa. The most extensively studied human infection is the common cold. Vitamin C administration does not decrease the average incidence of colds in the general population, yet it halved the number of colds in physically active people. Regularly administered vitamin C has shortened the duration of colds, indicating a biological effect. However, the role of vitamin C in common cold treatment is unclear. Two controlled trials found a statistically significant dose–response, for the duration of common cold symptoms, with up to 6–8 g/day of vitamin C. Thus, the negative findings of some therapeutic common cold studies might be explained by the low doses of 3–4 g/day of vitamin C. Three controlled trials found that vitamin C prevented pneumonia. Two controlled trials found a treatment benefit of vitamin C for pneumonia patients. One controlled trial reported treatment benefits for tetanus patients. The effects of vitamin C against infections should be investigated further.

 

Therefore no study with truly high doses. Also details of the bias in conventional medicine to vitamin C:

 

 

12. Misconceptions and Prejudices about Vitamin C and Infections

In the first half of the 20th century, a large number of papers were published in the medical literature on vitamin C and infections and several physicians were enthusiastic about vitamin C. The topic was not dismissed because of large-scale controlled trials showing that vitamin C was ineffective. Instead, many rather large trials found benefits of vitamin C. There seem to be four particular reasons why the interest in vitamin C and infections disappeared.

First, antibiotics were introduced in the mid-20th century. They have specific and sometimes very dramatic effects on bacterial infections and therefore are much more rational first line drugs for patients with serious infections than vitamin C. Secondly, vitamin C was identified as the explanation for scurvy, which was considered a disease of the connective tissues. Evidently it seemed irrational to consider that a substance that “only” participates in collagen metabolism might also have effects on infections. However, the biochemistry and actions of vitamin C are complex and not limited to collagen metabolism. Thirdly, the three papers published in 1975 appeared to herald the loss of interest in vitamin C and the common cold (Figure 1) and it seems likely that they increased the negative attitude towards vitamin C for other infections as well. Fourthly, “if a treatment bypasses the medical establishment and is sold directly to the public ... the temptation in the medical community is to accept uncritically the first bad news that comes along” [155].

The belief that vitamin C is “ineffective” has been widely spread. For example, a survey of general practitioners in the Netherlands revealed that 47% of respondents considered that homeopathy is efficacious for the treatment of the common cold, whereas only 20% of those respondents considered that vitamin C was [156]. Prejudices against vitamin C are not limited to the common cold. Richards compared the attitudes and arguments of physicians to three putative cancer medicines, 5-fluorouracil, interferon and vitamin C, and documented unambiguous bias against vitamin C [157,158,159]. Goodwin and Tangum gave several examples to support the conclusion that there has been a systematic bias against the concept that vitamins may yield benefits in levels higher than the minimum needed to avoid the classic deficiency diseases [160].

The use of vitamin C for preventing and treating colds falls into the category of alternative medicine under the classifications used by the National Institutes of Health in the USA and of the Cochrane collaboration. However, such categorization does not reflect the level of evidence for vitamin C, but reflects the low level of acceptance amongst the medical community, and may further amplify the inertia and prejudices against vitamin C [161].

 

 

I have yet to see case reports..

 

 

With case reports I can however serve you:

 

 

You'll find countless in the ignored literature, collected at http://www.doctoryourself.com/

 

For example a short historical review of MDs having used high-dose vitamin C against all kinds of viral diseases: http://www.doctoryou...ckorea2008.html

 

The most important article in giving precise instruction how to proceed in lack of IVs I consider this one: http://www.doctoryou.../titration.html

 

A last case report:

 

 

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n04-p230.pdf

 

Another was Albert Szent-Gyorgyi. In a 1982 letter,14 Stone tells Szent-Gyorgyi of a friend of his who, was diagnosed with prostate cancer at age 44 and then treated with surgery and radiation. A few years later, the cancer had metastasized to the pelvic bone and the patient was declared terminal and given about a year to live. However, Stone writes:

“Since he began taking 80 grams a day in 1979, his well-being has been excellent. He says he feels great most of the time, has also been able to continue working every day and lives a fairly normal life of the years since November 1978 when orthodox medicine said he would be dead. Visually he looks more like an athlete than a terminal cancer patient...

In the last few weeks he has been able to improve his well-being by increasing his ascorbate intake to 130 to 150 grams per day! He has been taking oral doses every hour of 5 to 10 grams of a mixture of nine parts sodium ascorbate plus one part ascorbic acid dissolved in water. These doses are well tolerated and within “bowel tolerance” and he has had no trouble from diarrhea except just lately when he had to reduce the 150 grams a day to 130 grams.

I believe his case is a classic and a good demonstration that if sufficient ascorbate is given to fully counteract all the incident stresses, then the cancer can be controlled. If given early enough in this disease, then cancer may no longer be a problem. Up to now we just haven’t realized how big these daily controlling doses have to be.”

Stone adds that the man’s doctor “ran some ascorbate determinations on Joe’s blood and came up with the highest blood levels I ever saw. At one point it was 35 mg%! Our so-called “normal” but scorbutic population averages 1 mg% or less, our kidney threshold is 1.4 mg%...

I would like to see a crash ascorbate program started on terminal cancer patients using doses in the ranges found to keep his cancer under control. Since these “terminals” have been abandoned by orthodox medicine, they have nothing to lose but their ill health.”

 

[OP2040]

Anybody counting on completion of clinical trials to save them from this is really naive, sorry if that sounds rude.  If you think the evidence so far for safe things like vitamin C and Zinc is compelling, please do not wait for a clinical trial on those substances to complete, unless you want to do a new clinical trial on the postmortem effects of C and Z.

[Daniel Cooper]

I am all for any solution to this pandemic, including high dose Vitamin C. I have yet to see case reports or any numbers of recovered patients. When I check all of the links being posted here, all I get is "it works really well". Dose anyone have any better data. How many patients treated vs. how many recovered. Age ranges. Severity of symptoms.

 

 

Totally agree.  Someone's going to have to put some numbers to this if we're ever going to figure out if it works.

[Daniel Cooper]

Anybody counting on completion of clinical trials to save them from this is really naive, sorry if that sounds rude.  If you think the evidence so far for safe things like vitamin C and Zinc is compelling, please do not wait for a clinical trial on those substances to complete, unless you want to do a new clinical trial on the postmortem effects of C and Z.

 

 

Don't want clinical trials.  Do want doctor so and so saying "I treated X patients with this protocol with these demographics and Y of them improved and Z of them died.".

 

I've been consistently arguing that we don't have time for clinical trials.  That does not mean we shouldn't try to get numerical data.  The two are not the same thing.

[Mind]

Anybody counting on completion of clinical trials to save them from this is really naive, sorry if that sounds rude.  If you think the evidence so far for safe things like vitamin C and Zinc is compelling, please do not wait for a clinical trial on those substances to complete, unless you want to do a new clinical trial on the postmortem effects of C and Z.

 

I second Daniel Cooper. I am not waiting around for a clinical trial of IV vitamin c. I just want the doctors to give some numbers, instead of just saying "it works really well".

 

At least the doctors who are running uncontrolled trials of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc are reporting the number of patients and their outcomes.

[pamojja]

I just want the doctors to give some numbers, instead of just saying "it works really well".

 

In the literature I linked to one would also find the numbers of case studies, beside the case studies. Here what Dr. Cheng has to say about the progress being made in China:

 

 

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecula.../subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecula...mns/index.shtml are included.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, Mar 18, 2020

Successful High-Dose Vitamin C Treatment of Patients with Serious and Critical COVID-19 Infection by Richard Cheng, MD, PhD

(OMNS Mar 18, 2020) A group of medical doctors, healthcare providers and scientists met online March 17, 2020, to discuss the use of high dose intravenous vitamin C (IVC) in the treatment of moderate to severe cases of Covid-19 patients. The key guest was Dr. Enqian Mao, chief of emergency medicine department at Ruijin Hospital, a major hospital in Shanghai, affiliated with the Joatong University College of Medicine. Dr. Mao is also a member of the Senior Expert Team at the Shanghai Public Health Center, where all Covid-19 patients have been treated. In addition, Dr. Mao co-authored the Shanghhai Guidelines for the Treatment of Covid-19 Infection, an official document endorsed by the Shanghai Medical Association and the Shanghai city government. [1]

Dr. Mao has been using high-dose dose IVC to treat patients with acute pancreatitis, sepsis, surgical wound healing and other medical conditions for over 10 years. When Covid-19 broke out, he and other experts thought of vitamin C and recommended IVC for the treatment of moderate to severe cases of Covid-19 patients. The recommendation was accepted early in the epidemic by the Shanghai Expert Team. All serious or critically ill Covid-19 patients in the Shanghai area were treated in Shanghai Public Health Center, for a total of 358 Covid-19 patients as of March 17th, 2020.

Dr. Mao stated that his group treated ~50 cases of moderate to severe cases of Covid-19 infection with high dose IVC. The IVC dosing was in the range of 10,000 mg - 20,000 mg a day for 7-10 days, with 10,000 mg for moderate cases and 20,000 for more severe cases, determined by pulmonary status (mostly the oxygenation index) and coagulation status. All patients who received IVC improved and there was no mortality. Compared to the average of a 30-day hospital stay for all Covid-19 patients, those patients who received high dose IVC had a hospital stay about 3-5 days shorter than the overall patients. Dr. Mao discussed one severe case in particular who was deteriorating rapidly. He gave a bolus of 50,000 mg IVC over a period of 4 hours. The patient's pulmonary (oxygenation index) status stabilized and improved as the critical care team watched in real time. There were no side effects reported from any of the cases treated with high dose IVC.

Among the international experts who attended today's video conference were: Dr. Atsuo Yanagisawa, formerly professor of medicine at the Kyorin University, Tokyo, Japan, and the president of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine; Dr. Jun Matsuyama of Japan; Dr. Michael J Gonzalez, professor at University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences, Dr. Jean Drisko, professor of medicine, and Dr. Qi Chen, professor of pharmacology, both at the Kansas University Medical School, Dr. Alpha "Berry" Fowler, professor of pulmonary and critical care medicine, Virginia Commonwealth University, Dr. Maurice Beer and Asa Kitfield, both from NutriDrip and Integrative Medical NY, New York City; Dr. Hong Zhang of Beijing; William T. Penberthy, PhD of CME Scribe, Florida; Ilyes Baghli, MD, president of the Algerian Society of Nutrition and Orthomolecular Medicine (SANMO); Drs. Mignonne Mary and Charles Mary Jr, of the Remedy Room, New Orleans; Dr. Selvam Rengasamy, president of SAHAMM, Malaysia. I, Richard Cheng, MD, PhD of Cheng Integrative Health Center of South Carolina, and Senior Advisor to ShenZhen Medical Association and Shenzhen BaoAn Central Hospital, coordinated this conference.

Albeit a brief meeting of less than 45 minutes due to Dr. Mao's limited time availability, the audience thanked Dr. Mao for his time and sharing and wished to keep the communication channel open and also able to talk to other clinicians working at the front line against Covid-19.

In a separate meeting, I had the honor to talk to Sheng Wang, M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Critical Care Medicine of Shanghai 10th Hospital, Tongji University College of Medicine at Shanghai China, who also served at the Senior Clinical Expert Team of the Shanghai Covid-19 Control and Prevention Team. There are three lessons that we learned about this Covid-19 infection, Dr. Wang said:

1. Early and high-dose IVC is quite helpful in helping Covid-19 patients. The data is still being finalized and the formal papers will be submitted for publication as soon as they are complete.

2. Covid-19 patients appear to have a high rate of hyper-coagulability. Among the severe cases, ~40% severe cases showed hyper-coagulability, whereas the number among the mild to moderate cases were 15-20%. Heparin was used among those with coagulation issues.

3. The third important lesson learned is the importance for the healthcare team of gearing up to wear protective clothing at the earliest opportunity for intubation and other emergency rescue measures. We found that if we waited until a patient developed the full-blown signs for intubation, then got ready to intubate, we would lose the precious minutes. So the treatment team should lower the threshold for intubation, to allow proper time (~15 minutes or so) for the team to gear up. This critical 15-30 minutes could make a difference in the outcome.

Also, both Drs. Mao and Wang confirmed that there are other medical teams in other parts of the country who have been using high dose IVC treating Covid-19 patients.

 

[Robert Magnuson]

Correction: The above study was China. Here is the one for New York: Sorry.

 

"Dr. Andrew G. Weber, a pulmonologist and critical-care specialist affiliated with two Northwell Health facilities on Long Island, has said that coronavirus patients admitted to intensive care immediately receive 1,500 mg of intravenous vitamin C. This dosage is then repeated 3-4 times a day.

According to Dr. Weber this treatment regime is based upon the experimental use of high-dose vitamin C in Shanghai’s hospitals. He told the New York Post:

“The patients who received vitamin C did significantly better than those who did not get vitamin C. It helps a tremendous amount, but it is not highlighted because it’s not a sexy drug.”

Apparently, high-dose intravenous vitamin C is been used in hospitals across New York. Sadly, its use appears to be patchy and is dependent upon the whims of individual doctors rather than being part of any systematic medical protocol.

As the global death toll soars higher we can only hope that more and more doctors will follow in the footsteps of their Chinese colleagues and have the courage to use a safe and cheap treatment that is totally at odds with the big pharma approach currently followed by the World Health Organisation and most governments. The current approach used by many Western Governments has been slow, clumsy and ill informed putting the interests of big business above saving the lives of ordinary people."

In other words, for the sake of suffering peoples' lives raise awareness:

http://chng.it/nBGJZxYQHx

 

 

[Robert Magnuson]

"Anybody counting on completion of clinical trials to save them from this is really naive, sorry if that sounds rude.  If you think the evidence so far for safe things like vitamin C and Zinc is compelling, please do not wait for a clinical trial on those substances to complete, unless you want to do a new clinical trial on the postmortem effects of C and Z."

 

Reply: As previously stated, some doctors in Long Island are having success now with IV Vitamin C. Awareness needs to be raised for the sake of those in desperate need now all over our country and the world.  

 

It is also good to take liposomal Vitamin C for self protection.

[bladedmind]

In post #341 I excerpted a comment from a Medscape discussion where a senior physician declared his prior successes treating pneumonia with SARS by hydrotherapy, specifically moist heat compress on the chest at intervals.   Although seemingly marginal, I posted it as atypical information.  I looked up hydrotherapy and found a naturopathic tradition of disease treatment going back to the Spanish flu that eschews aspirin and Tylenol, indulges fever, cools down with wet cold treatments if fever is too high, and uses wet heat treatments on the chest to discourage the pathogen and clear lungs of fluid.   

 

Today I discovered MedCram’s Coronavirus Pandemic Update 46: Can Hot/Cold Therapy Boost Immunity? More on Hydroxychloroquine. https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

Seunt seems to be an accomplished mainline M.D., and in this episode he closely reviews evidence for hot/cold treatments to build immunity and quell disease.  The discussion is quite thorough and involved; go there for details. 

 

TLDR:  no RCTs, but the sauna can’t hurt, and probably helps.   And cold or hot wet towels are cheap and don't require a prescription. 

[Robert Magnuson]

"I plan on doing the titiration until bowel tolerance with C-vitamin, which may take me to the 200g day dosing. Will that make my kidneys explode? I don't know but it might be the difference between crawling to the overburdened hospital where I will be exposed to the other twelve strains of the virus plus whatever meningitis or dengue fever is flying around that crazy Place. "

 

My reply: 200 mg per day is a very low dose compared to what is being taken to disable viruses. I urge you to watch Dr. Thomas Levy's videos on Vitamin C on YouTube.

 

 

[lancebr]

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta said that a recent study that was released shows that the treatments Remdevir

and the anti-HIV drug do not work against Covid 19.

 

I thought in past studies these treatments were working for patients.

 

He also didn't seem very optimistic for Hydroxychloroquine and Z-Pack treatment. 

Edited by lancebr, 01 April 2020 - 12:58 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Yes, thank you. I posted the study a page back.

 

I stumbled upon this study as well:

 

Higher serum zinc levels = better respons from the BCG vaccine.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26980500

 

I'm glad you beat me to it! The lower the latency from research publication to community awareness, the better.

 

The zinc "primer" for BCG is a really interesting concept. I suppose anyone getting the vaccine can ensure full RDA (or more, for zinc defficient individuals) in the week prior to doing so. Some countries used to have BCG boosters in childhood, or in adulthood for TB therapists, but those seem to have largely been abandonned. In the current situation, it might not be the worst idea to seek revaccination. To each his own.

[Kalliste]

"I plan on doing the titiration until bowel tolerance with C-vitamin, which may take me to the 200g day dosing. Will that make my kidneys explode? I don't know but it might be the difference between crawling to the overburdened hospital where I will be exposed to the other twelve strains of the virus plus whatever meningitis or dengue fever is flying around that crazy Place. "

 

My reply: 200 mg per day is a very low dose compared to what is being taken to disable viruses. I urge you to watch Dr. Thomas Levy's videos on Vitamin C on YouTube.

 

Lol read the bolded specified amount again Robert. Right now I'm doing 15 grams a day in case I am already an incubator. 

 

 

 

In post #341 I excerpted a comment from a Medscape discussion where a senior physician declared his prior successes treating pneumonia with SARS by hydrotherapy, specifically moist heat compress on the chest at intervals.   Although seemingly marginal, I posted it as atypical information.  I looked up hydrotherapy and found a naturopathic tradition of disease treatment going back to the Spanish flu that eschews aspirin and Tylenol, indulges fever, cools down with wet cold treatments if fever is too high, and uses wet heat treatments on the chest to discourage the pathogen and clear lungs of fluid.   

 

Today I discovered MedCram’s Coronavirus Pandemic Update 46: Can Hot/Cold Therapy Boost Immunity? More on Hydroxychloroquine. https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

Seunt seems to be an accomplished mainline M.D., and in this episode he closely reviews evidence for hot/cold treatments to build immunity and quell disease.  The discussion is quite thorough and involved; go there for details. 

 

TLDR:  no RCTs, but the sauna can’t hurt, and probably helps.   And cold or hot wet towels are cheap and don't require a prescription. 

 

I have my infrared lamps and ultraviolet lamp. Might use them if I break out in a fever. 

 

Remember to write this stuff down, once you get sick the brain will fog up like mad. 

[Kalliste]

Everyone is gushing over Japans Death rate... Japanese are supposed to be big on green tea. 5-7 cups a day.

 

 

In post #341 I excerpted a comment from a Medscape discussion where a senior physician declared his prior successes treating pneumonia with SARS by hydrotherapy, specifically moist heat compress on the chest at intervals.   Although seemingly marginal, I posted it as atypical information.  I looked up hydrotherapy and found a naturopathic tradition of disease treatment going back to the Spanish flu that eschews aspirin and Tylenol, indulges fever, cools down with wet cold treatments if fever is too high, and uses wet heat treatments on the chest to discourage the pathogen and clear lungs of fluid.   

 

Today I discovered MedCram’s Coronavirus Pandemic Update 46: Can Hot/Cold Therapy Boost Immunity? More on Hydroxychloroquine. https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

Seunt seems to be an accomplished mainline M.D., and in this episode he closely reviews evidence for hot/cold treatments to build immunity and quell disease.  The discussion is quite thorough and involved; go there for details. 

 

TLDR:  no RCTs, but the sauna can’t hurt, and probably helps.   And cold or hot wet towels are cheap and don't require a prescription. 

 

Another thing came to mind: What if you are unknowingly incubating and go for a strict sauna session? Might that be enough to kill of the disease or at least minimize the early viral load and leave time for body to fight it off?

[Iporuru]

Azithromycin and ciprofloxacin have a chloroquine-like effect on respiratory epithelial cells

There is interest in the use of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine (CQ/HCQ) and azithromycin (AZT) in COVID-19 therapy. Employing cystic fibrosis respiratory epithelial cells, here we show that drugs AZT and ciprofloxacin (CPX) act as acidotropic lipophilic weak bases and confer in vitro effects on intracellular organelles similar to the effects of CQ. These seemingly disparate FDA-approved antimicrobials display a common property of modulating pH of endosomes and trans-Golgi network. We believe this may in part help understand the potentially beneficial effects of CQ/HCQ and AZT in COVID-19, and that the present considerations of HCQ and AZT for clinical trials should be extended to CPX.

[Dorian Grey]

Everyone is gushing over Japans Death rate... Japanese are supposed to be big on green tea. 5-7 cups a day.

 

 

 

Another thing came to mind: What if you are unknowingly incubating and go for a strict sauna session? Might that be enough to kill of the disease or at least minimize the early viral load and leave time for body to fight it off?

 

This Doc seems to think so!

 

https://youtu.be/EFRwnhfWXxo?t=132

[lancebr]

Looks like Thailand is going to do trials on the herb Andrographis.

 

"Dr. Suhkum said that the Thailand Public Health Ministry will begin trials of the

Fah Talai Jone herb (andrographis paniculata) in the treatment of COVID-19

infection, after laboratory tests in China showed encouraging results that an

extract from the herb, andrographolide, is effective in curbing the virus intrusion

into human cells.

 

There was a study done a couple of years ago with this herb that showed it was able

to prevent virus replication due to inhibiting the acidification by the virus.

Edited by lancebr, 01 April 2020 - 08:12 AM.

[hotbit]

It's unbelievable how clumsy and random response to pandemic is. Example of a crap information & news: https://www.bbc.co.u...health-52111606
I'm not re-prinintg numbers here, as they are meaningless, as based on self assessment of people who self diagnosed. Time & resources wasted by experts from King's College London.

 

A proper open source database is needed. Patient age, BP, blood potassium levels, medications used, etc, etc. Teams and individuals around the world could use statistical tools or machine learning to learn more and maybe find solutions.

As a side note, from the perspective of the victims virus is devastating. I'm not talking this lightly - being long time smoker and drinker I'm probably in the high risk group. But looking at the big picture - since 01/01/2020 world population is up by 20 000 000...

[Iporuru]

Molecular Docking Analysis Of Some Phytochemicals On Two SARS-CoV-2 Targets

"The compounds Scopodulic acid and Dammarenolic acid showed the best-fit value of activity against SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein 6vsb and main protease Mpro 6lu7 targets, respectively. Our data suggest silibinin a repurposing candidate drug may have multitarget activity against SARS-CoV-2. So further in vitro and in vivo evaluations are recommended."

 

"This study proposes a potential re-purposing of silybinin for the management of COVID19 diseases. Silybinin (Silymarin) possesses potent antiviral activities against numerous viruses, particularly hepatitis C virus (HCV)(16, 17) It has been reported to have activities against a wide range of viral groups including flaviviruses (hepatitis C virus and dengue virus), togaviruses (Chikungunya virus and Mayaro virus), influenza virus, human immunodeficiency virus, and hepatitis B virus(16). Silymarin inhibits HCV in both in vitro and in vivo by inhibiting HCV entry, RNA synthesis, viral protein expression and infectious virus production; in addition, it also acts by blocking off the virus cell-to-cell spread(18). As an FDA approved drug for the management of Hepatitis disease. In silico analysis of this drugs in this study has shown that it has activity against SAR COV 2 S-glycoprotein and proteas(Mpro) targets making it a drug to be considered with multi-target ability in the management of this disease."

[mike_ag]

A new randomized trial from Wuhan shows the potential of hydroxychloroquine. 

Involving 62 Covid+ patients with pneumonia.

 

https://www.medrxiv....3.22.20040758v2

 

Results 

" For fever, 17 patients in the control group and 22 patients in the HCQ treatment group had a fever in day 0. Compared with the control group [3.2 (1.3) days], the body temperature recovery time was significantly shortened in the HCQ treatment group [2.2 (0.4) days]. For cough, 15 patients in the control group and 22 patients in the HCQ treatment group had a cough in day 0, The cough remission time was significantly reduced in the HCQ treatment group. Notably, a total of 4 of the 62 patients progressed to severe illness, all of which occurred in the control group not receiving HCQ treatment. For adverse effects, it should be noted that there were two patients with mild adverse reactions in the HCQ treatment group, one patient developed a rash, and one patient experienced a headache, none severe side effects appeared among them.

To further explore the effect of HCQ on pneumonia, we compared and analyzed the chest CT of patients on day 0 and day 6. In our study, pneumonia was improved in 67.7% (42/62) of patients, with 29.0% moderately absorbed and 38.7% significantly improved. Surprisingly, a larger proportion of patients with improved pneumonia in the HCQ treatment group (80.6%, 25 of 31) compared with the control group (54.8%, 17 of 31). Besides, 61.3% of patients in the HCQ treatment group had a significant pneumonia absorption. "

 

 

Edited by mike_ag, 01 April 2020 - 03:10 PM.

[albedo]

Even more actual these days?

 

Bolstering Your Defenses Against COVID-19: An “Epigenetic” Diet

 

https://www.longecit...nti-aging-diet/

 

[sciack]

As to vitamin C and kidney issues, my only point was that it can inhibit excretion of waste products. I see no theoretical reason why, being an acid, it should support the formation of kidney stones. Inhibited clearance is a reversible condition which is a minor concern for a patient primarily surviving on liquid calories anyway. I have no problem with offering consenting patients the opportunity to try megadose IV vitamin C.

being acidic shouldn't support the formation of kidneystone just like potassium citrate is used to dissolve them... But I do not know much about oxalate formation maybe the problem is there... anyway I think there is no sure correlation between high dose vitamin C and kidney stones there are probably other factors involved.

[DanCG]

Molecular Docking Analysis Of Some Phytochemicals On Two SARS-CoV-2 Targets

"The compounds Scopodulic acid and Dammarenolic acid showed the best-fit value of activity against SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein 6vsb and main protease Mpro 6lu7 targets, respectively. Our data suggest silibinin a repurposing candidate drug may have multitarget activity against SARS-CoV-2. So further in vitro and in vivo evaluations are recommended."

 

"This study proposes a potential re-purposing of silybinin for the management of COVID19 diseases. Silybinin (Silymarin) possesses potent antiviral activities against numerous viruses, particularly hepatitis C virus (HCV)(16, 17) It has been reported to have activities against a wide range of viral groups including flaviviruses (hepatitis C virus and dengue virus), togaviruses (Chikungunya virus and Mayaro virus), influenza virus, human immunodeficiency virus, and hepatitis B virus(16). Silymarin inhibits HCV in both in vitro and in vivo by inhibiting HCV entry, RNA synthesis, viral protein expression and infectious virus production; in addition, it also acts by blocking off the virus cell-to-cell spread(18). As an FDA approved drug for the management of Hepatitis disease. In silico analysis of this drugs in this study has shown that it has activity against SAR COV 2 S-glycoprotein and proteas(Mpro) targets making it a drug to be considered with multi-target ability in the management of this disease."

 

Silybinin also showed up in the in silico screen that was discussed earlier in this forum. My earlier post emphasized the hesperidin results, That paper consistently listed silibin among the drugs and not with the natural products.  Apart from a potential effect on coronavirus, silibinin (silymarin, Milk Thistle) is a good part of a stack because it inhibits p-glycoprotein, thereby improving the bioavailibility of other supplements.

[smithx]

According to this study, luteolin and quercetin (which they spell as "quercitin" but which is the same compound) have a high affinity for the spike protein of covid-19 and are therefore likely to block entry of the virus into the cell.

 

https://chemrxiv.org...face/11871402/4

 

So this is yet another mechanism for these readily available compounds potentially preventing or treating the disease.

 

 

Edited by smithx, 01 April 2020 - 06:25 PM.