1036 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Even CNN is wondering what the heck is going on with people wearing masks everywhere all the time. Makes no sense. Did very little to stop the spread of COVID in the vast majority of countries of the world - which was easily predictable by casually reviewing all the data on past pandemics.

 

https://www.cnn.com/...ovic/index.html

 

Even the CDC now admits what was obvious already a year ago!! - transmission of this virus through surfaces is just about non-existent. All the cleaning and hand sanitizer and other sterilization efforts are just theatre - ESPECIALLY outdoors where sunlight destroys it very quickly.

 

The fact that health bureaucrats continue to push mitigation efforts that are mostly AND provably useless, further cements my lack of respect for their authority.

Edited by Mind, 10 April 2021 - 10:03 AM.

[Hebbeh]

Dishonest as usual Mind. From your CNN link:

Indoors is a different story. It's clear that masks work, and that Covid thrives in contained spaces where people are breathing the same air. Masks remain necessary, and should be mandated, in the grocery store, on public transport, on airplanes and in airports, and anywhere else we're inside. And given that Covid rates continue to climb, it's absurd that we're allowing indoor dining, drinking and event-attending, particularly among the unvaccinated.

Crowded outdoor events are also a bad idea without masks. A concert where revelers are pressed together and everyone is screaming and singing for hours is practically inviting infections. Two unvaccinated people sitting inches away from each other and talking at length are taking a risk, even if they are outside.

Edited by Hebbeh, 07 April 2021 - 06:01 PM.

[Florin]

Even CNN is wondering what the heck is going on with people earing masks everywhere all the time. Makes no sense. Did very little to stop the spread of COVID in the vast majority of countries of the world - which was easily predictable by casually reviewing all the data on past pandemics.

1. Covid is mostly absent from Asia and Africa (that's where most of the world lives).
2. Covid is more prevalent where more contagious variants dominate.
3. The flu has been nearly eliminated everywhere.
4. There has been no widespread mask use in any other pandemic.

The only reasonable conclusion is that masks work well for less contagious viruses and variants but work less well for more contagious viruses or variants.

 

If you continue to claim otherwise without offering a compelling alternative explanation for these facts, I'm going to assume that you're arguing in bad faith.

Edited by Florin, 10 April 2021 - 02:15 AM.

[Mind]

Dishonest as usual Mind. From your CNN link:

Indoors is a different story. It's clear that masks work, and that Covid thrives in contained spaces where people are breathing the same air. Masks remain necessary, and should be mandated, in the grocery store, on public transport, on airplanes and in airports, and anywhere else we're inside. And given that Covid rates continue to climb, it's absurd that we're allowing indoor dining, drinking and event-attending, particularly among the unvaccinated.

Crowded outdoor events are also a bad idea without masks. A concert where revelers are pressed together and everyone is screaming and singing for hours is practically inviting infections. Two unvaccinated people sitting inches away from each other and talking at length are taking a risk, even if they are outside.

 

You missed the whole point of the CNN article and misrepresented my point (again, on purpose?)

 

"Everywhere all the time", is what I said.

 

The CNN writer was criticizing the wearing of masks outdoors. There is no science to support this what-so-ever. 

 

From the beginning, there has been evidence that people gathering in large groups indoors or in close indoor contact (think families in their house), spread the virus among themselves (just like the flu, colds, and other coronaviruses). This, I have readily acknowledged. The problem with the mask religion is that you cannot stop families from being in close contact in their house. You can't separate parents from kids. You can't stop people from eating and drinking. You can't force people to wear masks while sleeping.

[Mind]

 

1. Covid is mostly absent from Asia and Africa (that's where most of the world lives).
2. Covid is more prevalent where more contagious variants dominate.
3. The flu has been nearly eliminated everywhere.
4. There has been no widespread mask use in any other pandemic.

The only reasonable conclusion is that masks work well for less contagious viruses and variants but work less well for more contagious viruses or variants.

 

If you continue to claim otherwise without offering a compelling alternative explanation for these facts, I'm going to assume that you're arguing in bad faith.

 

 

I already addressed these points multiple times.

[Florin]

I already addressed these points multiple times.

 

As far as I know, you've never posted anything that's compelling and instead post a lot of misdirection. You may have mentioned seasonality, but it's a dead end. You tried to dispute the disappearance of the flu with a few lame anecdotes. You also tried to distort a CDC masking study. Now, you seem to have tried to misrepresent what CNN said about masks and resort to hairsplitting once you got called out about it. A lot of this stuff reeks of bad faith. If you have some superduper argument I missed, why don't you link to it?

[bladedmind]

I’m in mask-mandate California, and always mask in any public setting, even after being vaccinated.  I’m 71 and with comorbidities have an 80% chance of survival upon infection.   It's my choice, don't hassle me.

 

I see a lot of ineffective mask-wearing.  The open-nose masker is hilarious.  Then there is the stylish bandito bandana suggesting rebellious masculinity.  So many surgical masks, so casually worn.  About half seem to be unfitted such that there are prominently visible gaps.  I had to go into a major university health system for an appointment and I could have lobbed quarters  into the top line of the nurse’s surgical mask.  She's probably vaccinated and tired of masking. 

 

Although I always mask, I lean towards Dorian Grey’s views.  Yes indoors, but false security might make people more contagious, outdoors not much needed, instead distance.  I do not know for a fact, but I hypothesize that noble-lie authorities consider masking merely a valuable psychological reminder to people to stay cautious - and some of measured efficacy could be from this factor (or measured inefficacy from the false-security factor).   If authorities thought masks were effective they would massively provide for free (reusable through cycling every 5 days, good for at least 30 hours' lifetime use, see Collins) quality N95, KN95, and KF94 equivalents to the entire population, along with zealous advertising about how to pinch the nose, and check for and maintain a seal. 

 

I started masking with carefully sourced Powecom KN95s and have lately adopted KF94s.  There is a masks4all subreddit with some information on mask quality, which led me to Aaron Collins’s youtubes on comparative mask performance.   He’s got technical expertise and is not being paid for reviews.   He also advises how to avoid fakes.

https://news.yahoo.c...-174756926.html

https://www.youtube....mZD0ufN685YE7lg

https://docs.google....#gid=1976839763

 

Generally, the best masks are Korean KF94s.   Collins claims with evidence that the best KF94s are as good as gold standard 3M N95.  In boat style, they are also the most comfortable of masks.  They are great because Koreans have been masking a long time, they have strict governmental standards on acceptable masks, and lots of business competition and consumer choosiness.   I submit the speculative hypothesis that part of Korea’s covid success is due to mask quality and comfort.

 

Check out Collins’ rankings (spreadsheet at third link)  if you are nerd inclined.   If you want to save time go straight to https://behealthyusa.net/ and look for the Blue Brand 3D KF94s.   I also use the beautiful KF94-equivalent masks from masklab.us also highly rated by Collins.   I have two other sample KF94s thrown in by a seller.   There are other options very highly ranked by Collins -- I'm not shilling for the two linked brands.

 

The boat-style KF94s are remarkably comfortable – much easier to breathe in and out.  And the boat style is extremely easy to slip on and off.   The difference is huge – with the KF94s masking is almost no somatic bother – almost like nothing.

 

Just want to pass along this information.  Don’t want to get into the big mask debates.

 

 

 

[Florin]

All masks and disposable N95s suck; masks have poor filtration and/or seals and disposable N95s often fit poorly which compromises their seal.

 

Anyone that's serious about protection will want to wear a reusable elastomeric respirator with P100 (or equivalent) filters.

 

https://www.eurekale...c-pfo021121.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm...ooks/NBK540078/
https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=902077

[Mind]

 

 

As far as I know, you've never posted anything that's compelling and instead post a lot of misdirection

 

Nothing that's compelling for you. That's fine. You can have a different opinion on the vagaries of the data. 

[bladedmind]

Anyone that's serious about protection will want to wear a reusable elastomeric respirator with P100 (or equivalent) filters.

 

I’m posting this with kind and friendly intent:

 

8 Ways to Catch All-Or-Nothing Thinking

[Florin]

I’m posting this with kind and friendly intent:

 

8 Ways to Catch All-Or-Nothing Thinking

 

If you can have it all, why settle for just better than nothing?

Edited by Florin, 13 April 2021 - 03:16 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

If you can have it all, why settle for just better than nothing?

 
Well, for one you've asserted that P100 reusable filter masks are more comfortable to wear on a daily basis.  Having worn both types of mask I find that to be the opposite of reality.  I would challenge you to get your reusable P100 mask and wear it for 8 hrs a day/5 days a week for a month and come back and report to us.

 

It's very rare that you can "have it all" without paying some additional cost somewhere. 

 

 

[Florin]

 
Well, for one you've asserted that P100 reusable filter masks are more comfortable to wear on a daily basis.  Having worn both types of mask I find that to be the opposite of reality.  I would challenge you to get your reusable P100 mask and wear it for 8 hrs a day/5 days a week for a month and come back and report to us.

 

It's very rare that you can "have it all" without paying some additional cost somewhere. 

 

I already know for a fact that an elastomeric respirator is way more comfortable than most masks and disposable N95s. How do I know this? It's simple: any mask (except for maybe something like a very loose/low-filtration surgical or cloth mask) or respirator without an exhalation valve would make anyone's face sweat after just a few seconds of use (and so may cause skin problems like the one you've experienced). Even if your mask comes with an exhalation valve, the mask's edge would rub against your skin and could be another source of discomfort.

 

Here's your 40 hrs/week-for-months anecdote:

 

 

You can't always have it all, but you can often do a lot better.

Edited by Florin, 14 April 2021 - 04:20 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

As they say - in theory practice and theory are the same, but in practice they're not.

 

Your experience with wearing a mask long term is shall we say .... theoretical. You have equated comfort entirely to the presence of an exhalation valve.

 

But ease of exhalation isn't the only thing affecting comfort. The mask you are touting is considerably heavier. The rubber that seals against the face also chafes against the skin far more than a cloth or paper mask. And that exhalation valve with which you are so enamored does not by in large eliminate moisture build up inside the mask. It does help with making your exhalation require less effort, but that's about it.

 

I implore you to take your knowledge of these masks from the theoretical to practical.  Surely you have one in your possession given the extent to which you tout them.  All you need do is put that mask on at 8:00 am every morning and wear it to 5:00 pm every evening with an hour break for lunch. Do that week days for a month and get back to us.  Then you can truly speak on this subject with the authority of practical experience.

 

 

 

 

[Hebbeh]

Lower COVID-19 rates seen in U.S. states with higher adherence to mask wearing: New evidence supports mask wearing in public as key to reducing spread of COVID-19 -- ScienceDaily

 

Lower COVID-19 rates seen in U.S. states with higher adherence to mask wearing New evidence supports mask wearing in public as key to reducing spread of COVID-19

 

A new state-by-state analysis shows a statistical association between high adherence to mask wearing and reduced rates of COVID-19 in the U.S. Charlie Fischer and colleagues at the Boston University School of Public Health in Massachusetts present these findings in the open-access journal PLOS ONE on April 14.

 

During the COVID-19 pandemic, different states have enacted different policies on mask wearing, with some states having no mask requirements and others requiring masks in all public spaces. Understanding the link between mask wearing and COVID-19 rates could help inform policies to mitigate stress on healthcare systems, economic instability, and death.

 

To help clarify the effects of mask wearing, Fischer and colleagues examined publicly available data on mask-wearing policies, people's self-reported habits on mask wearing in public, and COVID-19 rates for all 50 U.S. states and Washington, D.C. They accounted for a one-month delay between mask wearing and its subsequent potential impact on COVID-19 rates from May through October 2020. For this analysis, they considered rates of more than 200 cases per 100,000 residents to be high.

 

The analysis showed that, out of 15 states that did not require people to wear masks in public, 14 had high COVID-19 rates. Meanwhile, eight states had self-reported adherence rates of 75 percent of greater, and none of these states had a high COVID-19 rate. States with the lowest adherence rates had the greatest likelihood of high COVID-19 rates in the subsequent month.

 

The eight states with at least 75-percent adherence to mask wearing had a mean COVID-19 rate of 109.26 per 100,000 residents in the subsequent month, while the mean COVID-19 rate was 239.99 for states with less than 75 percent adherence.

 

These findings provide new evidence in support of mask-wearing as a major factor that contributes to reduced COVID-19 rates. They suggest that policies and public health efforts to reduce the spread of COVID-19 should include a focus on improved mask adherence throughout the U.S.

 

Journal Reference:

1. Charlie B. Fischer, Nedghie Adrien, Jeremiah J. Silguero, Julianne J. Hopper, Abir I. Chowdhury, Martha M. Werler. Mask adherence and rate of COVID-19 across the United States. PLoS ONE, 2021; 16 (4): e0249891 DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10...al.pone.0249891

 

[Florin]

As they say - in theory practice and theory are the same, but in practice they're not.

 

You got your anecdote, so why are you still complaining? Even if it was the most uncomfortable mask/respirator ever made, it seems comfortable enough to wear for months, and that's all that matters. Superior comfort is just a bonus, not a requirement.

 

Your experience with wearing a mask long term is shall we say .... theoretical. You have equated comfort entirely to the presence of an exhalation valve.

 

But ease of exhalation isn't the only thing affecting comfort. The mask you are touting is considerably heavier. The rubber that seals against the face also chafes against the skin far more than a cloth or paper mask. And that exhalation valve with which you are so enamored does not by in large eliminate moisture build up inside the mask. It does help with making your exhalation require less effort, but that's about it.

 

You don't need to wear a respirator 24/7 to know that having an exhalation valve is the most important component for comfort, because without it, your face will become sweaty just like it almost certainly has with your current mask and it will also make breathing more difficult. As long as you don't live in a swamp, it does eliminate all excess moisture and heat. As for weight, it's considerably heavier only if you use carbon or gas filters, which in this case aren't needed. The silicone or rubber seal doesn't chafe at all; instead it sort of sticks to the skin. For some people the seal might put too much pressure on top of the nose, but that's even more of a problem for disposable N95s and using a silicone seal or adjusting the positioning of the respirator can solve that issue.

 

I implore you to take your knowledge of these masks from the theoretical to practical.  Surely you have one in your possession given the extent to which you tout them.  All you need do is put that mask on at 8:00 am every morning and wear it to 5:00 pm every evening with an hour break for lunch. Do that week days for a month and get back to us.  Then you can truly speak on this subject with the authority of practical experience.

 

One anecdote should be enough to make you eager to try to wear one yourself for at least one day.

Edited by Florin, 15 April 2021 - 04:16 AM.

[Florin]

its subsequent potential impact on COVID-19 rates from May through October 2020.

 

But masks' luck ran out after October in the West, and now, it seems that the same thing is starting to happen in Asia.

 

https://ourworldinda...e~South America

[Danail Bulgaria]

According to worldometer the countries in Asia are very well.

https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

Tap on the colum "Deaths/1 M pop"

Japan 75

S. Korea 35

China 3

[platypus]

I found snugly fitting FFP3 masks for ~2€ a piece on Amazon, they are better than N95 while looking the same. Perhaps breathing resistance is a bit higher. 

[Florin]

According to worldometer the countries in Asia are very well.

https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

Tap on the colum "Deaths/1 M pop"

Japan 75

S. Korea 35

China 3

 

Those countries likely have tight border controls, whereas others probably not so much.

 

Another issue is that even with low levels of activity, more contagious local variants will inevitably arise.

Edited by Florin, 16 April 2021 - 06:25 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Those countries likely have tight border controls, whereas others probably not so much.

 

Another issue is that even with low levels of activity, more contagious local variants will inevitably arise.

 

The people in those countries also wear their masks.

I remember seing many people in Japan wearing masks long before the COVID19
They have the mind setting to wear the mask from vefore the coronavirus.

[Florin]

The people in those countries also wear their masks.

I remember seing many people in Japan wearing masks long before the COVID19
They have the mind setting to wear the mask from vefore the coronavirus.

 

Right, but masks probably won't work as well against the more contagious variants, even if compliance is high.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The mask is some sort of a filter. No matter how contageous the variant is a good enough filter will always work.

 

[Florin]

The ability of most masks to filter aerosols is substantially less than even N95s, and this is probably why they didn't stop the covid winter wave which hit Europe and the US. But they did seem to have stopped the flu which is not as contagious as the covid variants. This means compliance was probably high, because if it wasn't, flu would also be widespread. So, masks seem to work well against less contagious viruses like the flu and the early covid strains but not against the more contagious covid variants. This is why respirators are needed, and the best kind of respirators are elastomerics.

[Danail Bulgaria]

What I can say for sure is that I didn't get the disease, and all of my tests are negative. I have never had a positive test result, never had high temperature and never had even the slightest sign of infection. I wear a mask with particular reusable filters. Not an elastomeric respirator. I use them from the beginning and they still work. At that moment that mask option is good enough for me. I don't pllan shifting to respirators. I also like you think, that non good filters have to be avoided. I simply was lucky. I managed to take the right reusable filters from the first ever produced. They were real. Later it appeared that there are not enough resorces for the particular acive charcoat in these filters to be produced, and now the filters offered are a grotesque - they have only a bunch of grains jingling in the filter, and the traders swear that that this is more than enough.

 

[Mind]

For everyone that wants to wear a mask for the rest of their lives...go ahead...fine with me.

 

For people who don't want to wear masks....go ahead....fine with me.

[Dorian Grey]

For everyone that wants to wear a mask for the rest of their lives...go ahead...fine with me.

 

For people who don't want to wear masks....go ahead....fine with me.

 

Excellent compromise Mind.  21 pages of back & forth on this, and it's clear this has become a religion to some.  As someone who values freedom, I would err on the side of personal choice at this point.  I'm about done with folks giving me the stink-eye when I'm walking down the street (outdoors), as though I might be contaminating the entire earth's atmosphere with my little breath.  

 

If a store owner wants me masked to enter his establishment, that's fine, but it's time for the government to lighten up, and the zealots to chill out.  

[Dorian Grey]

If you agree with us, no problem. If you disagree, then you have been duped by Russia. LOL

 

Yep, we need a massive deprogramming alright.  Outdoor mask mandates & remdesivir our only hope for survival.  Everything else is simply brown noise.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 19 April 2021 - 06:14 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

OK, back to the back & forth: 

 

https://americancons...-against-covid/

 

Stanford study quietly published at NIH.gov proves face masks are absolutely worthless against Covid

 

The diapers most of us are wearing on our face most of the time apparently have no effect at stopping Covid-19. This explains a lot.

[geo12the]

OK, back to the back & forth: 

 

https://americancons...-against-covid/

 

Stanford study quietly published at NIH.gov proves face masks are absolutely worthless against Covid

 

The diapers most of us are wearing on our face most of the time apparently have no effect at stopping Covid-19. This explains a lot.

 

Everything today is politicized and many people here post science news from Politically slanted sources like https://americanconservativemovement, Red State News or whatever. I don't get news from politically slanted sources be they left or right. And certainly science news I stick with science journals. FWIW the paper this is referring to is published in the journal Med Hypotheses. I read it. It's more of an opinion piece and very slanted. It's NOT definitive, it's NOT earth-shattering and NOT the final word on the subject.  If you are on one side you think HCQ is a miracle drug and masks don't work. If you are on the other side you think it makes sense to close down beaches. Both are wrong. Let's take politics out of every facet of our worldviews and beliefs and just look at facts and look at all sides.

 

I have not stayed home this last year, I've been working for a startup in the early stages and have been going to Hardware stores, Target, and other stores on an almost daily basis to buy stuff for the lab. While I don't believe masks are full-proof, I do believe they have helped prevent me from catching COVID this last year because I have been very busy and in enclosed public spaces often. But that is my hypothesis. 

 

We can go back and forth and argue but I will take the word of the consensus of experts in the field like the TWIV (this week in Virology) folks. I don't get science news from American Conservative movement or Huff post. Why do you?