1036 replies to this topic

[Mind]

When challenged to debate/defend the conclusions of the Bangladesh mask study, the author could not back it up very well.

 

The conclusions for mask usage were rather weak anyway.

[Mind]

More companies are dropping mask mandates, such as Uber. They probably are just following the trend with the public transportation mask mandate being struck down in the U.S.

[smithx]

Are people here of the opinion that masks don't work at all, or that non N95 / FFPII etc. masks don't work?

 

N95 are widely available now again, and FFPII have been required in some places like Germany.

 

 

[pamojja]

Are people here of the opinion that masks don't work at all, or that non N95 / FFPII etc. masks don't work?

 

N95 are widely available now again, and FFPII have been required in some places like Germany.

 

In my country from the beginning FFP2 where required form the beginning, still now. With about the same population as Sweden, and we've got the same death rate. Bavaria too had FFP2 mandated, no difference to the rest of Germany.

 

Though I still don't know even 1 person being hospitalized or died from - at my workplace FFP2 and distancing in a councelling setting were strictly followed: all the social workers even vaccinated got it with symptoms. While in a stationary setting, where clients were not required to wear them all the time, none got covid with symptoms. Less of them vaccinated too.

[Mind]

Are people here of the opinion that masks don't work at all, or that non N95 / FFPII etc. masks don't work?

 

N95 are widely available now again, and FFPII have been required in some places like Germany.

 

It is my opinion that masks "work", of course, to block various sizes of particles that might be in the air. Properly fitted N100 respirators, gas masks, and even full body hazmat suits, are designed well and "work".

 

It is my opinion that masking is a very poor pandemic response because the masks don't "work" in the real world with humans interacting in real ways. A hazmat suit "works" until you take it off. We have very good evidence now (again!) that general masking of the populace is a very poor pandemic response and might even be harmful, overall. Well done RCT studies prior to COVID showed this as well.

[Mind]

Some colleges in the U.S. are returning to mask mandates even though this didn't work over the last couple of years. In Florida, universities have not had mask requirements since August of 2021, yet there doesn't appear to be any evidence of differences in COVID outcomes with universities that require masks.

 

If they required full hazmat suits at all times on and off campus, maybe that would work.

[Hip]

Some colleges in the U.S. are returning to mask mandates even though this didn't work over the last couple of years. In Florida, universities have not had mask requirements since August of 2021, yet there doesn't appear to be any evidence of differences in COVID outcomes with universities that require masks.

 

If they required full hazmat suits at all times on and off campus, maybe that would work.

 

People are rather foolish thinking that surgical masks are guaranteed to block all viral transmission. The contaminated air gets in via the loose edges of surgical masks. Surgical masks are not designed to block pathogens.

 

You need respirator masks, not surgical masks if you want guaranteed protection.

 

 

I never realized how dumb people can be until this pandemic hit. People have really stupid ideas. Look at those people in China who spray the pavements with disinfectant. What a ridiculous idea! Nobody is going to catch COVID from the pavement.

[pamojja]

In my country from the beginning FFP2 where required form the beginning, still now. With about the same population as Sweden, and we've got the same death rate. Bavaria too had FFP2 mandated, no difference to the rest of Germany.

 

Funny, a few days ago in the news: finally they found huge discrepancies in the medical reporting of covid, and general statistics. So the total death toll alledgedly increase by about 3 thousand deaths (from or with covid), now leaving Sweden and other countries far behind. We still have to wear FFP2 in public transport and essential shops. Some never learn from mistakes, or are to afraid to loose face.
 

[Mind]

Many western nations are dropping useless mask mandates, joining the many countries that never had them. All having similar COVID outcomes. 

[Mind]

Why is the CDC trying to keep mask mandates going - even though they have been proven to be useless.

 

Maybe if they could mandate every person to wear hazmat suits continuously for 2 weeks, then perhaps it might impact respiratory illness transmission.

 

The choice quote from the CDC: "To protect the CDC's public health authority...."

 

Notice they did not say "to protect public health...."

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

Vinay Prasad, MD MPH on the "intermittent cloth mask mandates" for air travel.

 

 

Priceless!  

[pamojja]

Funny, a few days ago in the news: finally they found huge discrepancies in the medical reporting of covid, and general statistics. So the total death toll alledgedly increase by about 3 thousand deaths (from or with covid), now leaving Sweden and other countries far behind.

 

For whoever needed:

• Needs references x 1

 

Here:

https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

 

Beginning of year Austria overtook Sweden from 57th rank in deaths per million with Covid. Now Austria stepped up to 46th and left 9 other countries behind.

 

Those excess death not counted the last 2 years, where added when they happened in the past, and only show up now.

Edited by pamojja, 01 May 2022 - 11:52 AM.

[Mind]

Another review of the published data showing no benefit to mask usage in Europe - even a slight positive correlation between mask usage and COVID mortality.

 

It is not that high quality masks or hazmat suits could not work "in theory" to prevent a respiratory illness from spreading, but "theory" was proven wrong in a real world setting during the COVID pandemic.

[Mind]

For anyone with their eyes open during the pandemic time period, it has been obvious that the whole "mask mandate" thing was a farce. Politicians all over the world continually violated mask (and travel restirctions), even being caught on camera saying it was "all theatre".

 

Here is another clip of the absurdity of the mask usage. Joe Biden walks outside with no one around with a mask on, then when he gets into a crowd he takes the mask off. LOL.

 

Taiwan was held up as a great example of how everyone wore masks and they prevented COVID from spreading. Just like every other country in the world, they ended up with a huge wave of COVID. Health leaders who keep pushing mask mandates, in the face of the mandate failure over and over and over and over again...should be fired. They obviously are not following the real world data.

[Hip]

Taiwan was held up as a great example of how everyone wore masks and they prevented COVID from spreading. Just like every other country in the world, they ended up with a huge wave of COVID. Health leaders who keep pushing mask mandates, in the face of the mandate failure over and over and over and over again...should be fired. They obviously are not following the real world data.

 

Last time I checked an English dictionary, the word "huge" meant "colossal", "enormous", "gigantic".

 

Yet when we check the total amount of COVID deaths in Taiwan since the beginning of the pandemic, they are only 1,436 deaths. That is not what I would call a colossal amount.

 

If we take a country with similar population size, like Holland, the total deaths are 22,307.

 

So it is not correct to say that Taiwan ended up with a huge wave of COVID.

[Mind]

Last time I checked an English dictionary, the word "huge" meant "colossal", "enormous", "gigantic".

 

Yet when we check the total amount of COVID deaths in Taiwan since the beginning of the pandemic, they are only 1,436 deaths. That is not what I would call a colossal amount.

 

If we take a country with similar population size, like Holland, the total deaths are 22,307.

 

So it is not correct to say that Taiwan ended up with a huge wave of COVID.

 

 

What do you call going from near zero cases to between 75,000 and 100,000 cases per day for the last month? A "minor" increase? Hardly noticeable? In comparison to the last two years, it looks like a huge wave of cases to me. Most people would agree that there has at least been a "large" increase, or "some" increase. Who looks at the data and says "nothing to see here"?

Attached Files

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[smithx]

The interesting question for me is: what changed? They were doing really well, then they weren't. Something changed.

 

It at least appears that whatever they were doing until then was working well.

 

 

What do you call going from near zero cases to between 75,000 and 100,000 cases per day for the last month? A "minor" increase? Hardly noticeable? In comparison to the last two years, it looks like a huge wave of cases to me. Most people would agree that there has at least been a "large" increase, or "some" increase. Who looks at the data and says "nothing to see here"?

 

[Daniel Cooper]

The interesting question for me is: what changed? They were doing really well, then they weren't. Something changed.

 

It at least appears that whatever they were doing until then was working well.

 

Taiwan has started to slowly reopen it's borders. Starting in March of this years, foreigners with a demonstrable business purpose in Taiwan can enter the country after applying for a permit.

 

Around April of this year Taiwanese citizens and those holding legal residency who where outside of the country when it locked it's borders in March 2020 were allowed to return to Taiwan.

 

Taiwan started moving away from it's zero covid policy earlier this year and now takes the stance that it can't keep the polices associated with it in place forever and that eventually covid will significantly make it's way into Taiwan. It is basically an acceptance of the inevitable.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 May 2022 - 03:13 PM.

[Hip]

What do you call going from near zero cases to between 75,000 and 100,000 cases per day for the last month? A "minor" increase? Hardly noticeable? In comparison to the last two years, it looks like a huge wave of cases to me. Most people would agree that there has at least been a "large" increase, or "some" increase. Who looks at the data and says "nothing to see here"?

 

Taiwan only got an increase in COVID cases very recently, after it recently lifted a lot of its COVID restrictions, such as mask wearing (which actually proves that those restrictions were working very well). 

 

But before it lifted those restrictions, Taiwan had very low levels of COVID cases and COVID deaths.

[Mind]

Glad to see more people admitting that mask mandates don't work, now the NY Times, (for all of those that reject all other news sources and research)

 

This was OBVIOUS from decades of well-controlled prior research, not to mention common sense. This has been obvious since the first mask mandate was instituted in 2020. Mask mandates have not stopped the spread of COVID anywhere in the world. There might be no greater failure of the mask mandates than in Hong Kong, where they had the strictest enforcement and the highest compliance out of anywhere in the world, yet had one of the WORST COVID recent outcomes.

 

No one should have faith in anything the WHO or the CDC says about pandemic response. They failed. They ignored science. They used short-term, uncontrolled, mostly non-statistically relevant "studies" to force a harmful pandemic response upon the populations of the world. Some of the studies were clearly junk, if you took the time to look at the methods.

 

I have often noted in this thread that the adoption of a mask mandate in any region or country, is usually correlated with major outbreaks of COVID a short time later. Not only that, but the mask mandates (and isolation measures) caused a lot of suffering for many people and has directly caused the increase in the suicide rate. The drug abuse, depression, and other illnesses that have resulted from the mask mandates are long-lasting expensive maladies that societies will have to grapple with.

 

As was mentioned so many times previously in this discussion, the NYTimes writer says - in a well-controlled lab environment, sure, masks "work". They do not work in the REAL world where people interact. Now that we have large datasets - one can observe that there is no statistically relevant difference between regions of the world that had high mask usage vs. no mask usage.

 

Sadly, I think there is still a cult of mask absolutists that will continue to reject the science and unleash hate-filled speech toward anyone discussing the real situation. Just like over the last two years, I am sure they will still try to destroy and denigrate anyone who goes against "the narrative".

 

At least the NYTimes writer suggests different MORE EFFECTIVE pandemic response modalities, now that masks have once again been shown to be a failure in the real world at large.

 

 

[Hip]

Glad to see more people admitting that mask mandates don't work, now the NY Times, (for all of those that reject all other news sources and research)

 
Not true, what the article actually says is that the general public are too stupid to wear masks properly, and that's why masks have failed to provide the protection they are capable of. Don't blame the masks when the fault lies with the incompetence of the people wearing them.

 

To quote your article:
 
 
 

Airplane passengers remove their masks to have a drink. Restaurant patrons go maskless as soon as they walk in the door. Schoolchildren let their masks slide down their faces. So do adults: Research by the University of Minnesota suggests that between 25 percent and 30 percent of Americans consistently wear their masks below their nose.

 
 Laughable that some people are so dim that they wear a mask below their nose, where the mask is not going to offer any benefit.

 

 

“Even though masks work, getting millions of people to wear them, and wear them consistently and properly, is a far greater challenge,” Steven Salzberg, a biostatistician at Johns Hopkins University, has written.

 

Quite amazing the difficulty so many people have wearing a mask properly. It's a wonder they can actually put their underpants on each day.



 

The drug abuse, depression, and other illnesses that have resulted from the mask mandates are long-lasting expensive maladies that societies will have to grapple with.

 
Wearing a mask leads to drug abuse and depression!? Where is the evidence for that? 
 
So are welders become drug addicts and depressed, as they have to wear a full face mask as part of their job?

Edited by Hip, 04 June 2022 - 03:23 AM.

[Mind]

More evidence that masks are not an effective pandemic response. Counties with mask mandates and higher mask usage in Kansas had a higher rate of hospitalization and death from COVID than counties that had lower mask usage. The authors mention the possibility of the Foegen effect causing more infection and death, which I mentioned several times in this discussion - a point for which I received a lot of hatred and derision.

 

I have noted before that there is a high correlation between the beginning of a mask mandate and an explosion of COVID within a few weeks (in most countries and states of the world).

 

The mask mandates don't work in the real world for innumerable reasons which I have detailed often in this discussion. People have to eat, sleep, drink, pass gas, etc... Families interact. Life happens. Some people are cognitively challenged and incapable of continuously wearing a mask. A small percentage of people are philosophically opposed. Professionally fitted N-100 masks, goggles, and hazmat suits are not readily available to enough people to make a difference.

 

Interesting that an explosion of COVID was once again predicted when the mask mandate for air travel was lifted in the U.S. It didn't happen. Fauci and other health leaders of the CDC and WHO are obviously incompetent, unethical, or both, for not following the real world data.

[Hip]

Some people are cognitively challenged and incapable of continuously wearing a mask.

 

Is that one of those politically correct, euphemistic phrases for "not very smart".

 

Yes it is true that a large percentage of the population do not seem to be able to work out how to wear a mask properly, even though it is easy to find instructions online. But wearing a mask is no more difficult that pulling on your pants.

 

The problem is that there have been no government advisory programs broadcast on TV explaining how to wear a mask. Doctors and nurses are sent on courses that teach them how to wear masks. We should have sent the general public on a course, via TV education.

 

And also, we should not have told the public that face cloths and surgical masks can be used. We should have informed the public that only N95 or FFP2 respiratory masks will fully protect them. 

 

 

 

You do not need to wear a mask all the time to get a degree of protection. You can just wear a mask when you are in a high risk situation. For example, traveling on public transport, or traveling by air. Or when you go to the supermarket (one of the most common places where people catch COVID). Or in the doctor's waiting room. You do not need to wear a mask when you are at home with your family. And if all employees at your place of work are testing for COVID daily, you probably do not need to wear a mask at work. 

 

Education on mask wearing should explain to the general public where the high risk situations are, so that they can use masks judiciously. Nobody wants to wear a mask all day long; but people may like to wear a mask during specific high risk situations. This is how we should have educated the public.

 

 

Posting studies suggesting that masks do not work makes no sense, since firstly most people were not wearing proper respirator masks; and secondly, they had no education about how to wear them properly. 30% of Americans wear their mask under their nose, which means the mask cannot protect you at all.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 10 June 2022 - 11:48 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Many squealed with glee when reports of the "final nail in the coffin" for HCQ made headlines, so pardon me if I get a bit giddy reading this: 

 

https://www.dailymai...-Australia.html

 

The astonishing data that may prove masks DON'T work as Covid cases in Singapore and New Zealand OVERTAKE Australia despite SUPER strict mandates: 'They don't matter'

 

• Covid cases in Singapore and New Zealand have overtaken Australia per capita 
• Both still have very strict mandates in place unlike Australia where rules eased
• Death rates in New Zealand are also higher than in Australia despite masks
• Data shared by infectious diseases professor in post saying masks 'don't matter'
• It's the latest damning data to counter calls for a Covid clampdown in Australia

New data shows Covid cases in Singapore and New Zealand have overtaken Australia in the latest Omicron wave despite ultra-strict mask mandates.

Masks are worn everywhere in the densely-populated Asian city while New Zealanders are forced to wear them in all indoor public places, such as shopping centers and libraries.

But both now have higher case numbers per million than Australia, where compulsory mask rules have been abandoned in most indoor settings.

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Posting studies suggesting that masks do not work makes no sense, since firstly most people were not wearing proper respirator masks; and secondly, they had no education about how to wear them properly. 30% of Americans wear their mask under their nose, which means the mask cannot protect you at all.   

 

The problem with this statement is that you've turned the issue of masking into a non-falsifiable theory.

 

If a study supports masks, then huzzah! - Masks work! 

 

If a study shows that masks are ineffective then it was because people weren't wearing the proper mask, they weren't educated and weren't wearing them properly, etc. etc. With this mindset, there is virtually no evidence that can ever prove that masks don't work. At this point we've departed the realm of science.

 

What matters isn't whether masks theoretically work. What matters is whether masks practically work. And practically they haven't really worked. 

 

As they say, "In theory practice and theory are the same, in practice they are not".

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 19 July 2022 - 05:54 PM.

[Mind]

There are now several high-quality large studies involving mask usage over the last 2.5 years that show no difference in case rates between the people or regions which had high/exceptional/proper usage vs. low or no usage. Here is another. Yet LA county's bureaucrats - who admit to not reading the studies and are not concerned with nepotism - want to torture kids with a mask mandate again.

 

Meanwhile, throughout the entire COVID hysteria, politicians and rich elites rarely followed any of the COVID restrictions. They are still engaging in the bizarre and laughable mask theatre that makes zero sense. They look like idiots now that hardly anyone is wearing a mask.

 

High quality N100 masks googles and hazmat suits work in the lab and well-controlled environments. With kids? In the real world? Not so much.

Edited by Mind, 23 July 2022 - 03:32 PM.

[Mind]

Students in Fargo who were mandated to wear masks fared worse than those in West Fargo where masks were not mandated.

 

Universal masking has been a colossal failure as a pandemic policy. Anyone who thinks kids can be masked constantly and properly have never been around kids.

 

In Japan, with well over 90% mask compliance, yet another huge wave of COVID. 

 

Meanwhile, incompetent health bureaucrats continue to warn people  - everyone should still be wearing masks in public - are then caught out in public without a mask. The dementia-addled former vice president of the U.S. even tested positive for COVID and went to a meeting without a mask. For our leaders, it is all theatre. They violate the COVID restrictions constantly. Yet people follow them and their rules like a religious cult.

 

One failure-of-a-health bureaucrat continues to complain about how people are ignoring his commandments. People should ignore incompetent megalomaniacs.

[Mind]

Justin Trudeau rides on a plane without a mask - while you are forced to wear a mask on a plane. Just another example of leaders not following their own rules. Why do citizens put up with this? 

[smithx]

And yet another study showing that masks work when used consistently:

 

https://jamanetwork....4?resultClick=3

Examination of SARS-CoV-2 In-Class Transmission at a Large Urban University With Public Health Mandates Using Epidemiological and Genomic Methodology

 

Question  Is there evidence of in-class transmission of SARS-CoV-2 on a university campus that had mandated vaccination and masking?

Findings  In this cohort study of 140 000 class meetings at a large US university, there were over 850 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection identified through weekly surveillance testing of all students and faculty on campus during the fall 2021 semester. There were 9 instances of potential in-class transmission identified as identical lineages confirmed by SARS-CoV-2 genome sequencing, and none of these instances were confirmed to be in-class transmission.

Meaning  These results suggest that in-class transmission of SAR-CoV-2 in an urban university with masking and vaccine protocols in-place was negligible.

 

 

 

[smithx]

Whomever marked a reference to a study covering 140,000 datapoints as "pointless, timewasting", without any discussion of why that would be the case, should be banned from this site, if this site still has any pretensions towards being a place for scientific discussion.

Edited by smithx, 08 August 2022 - 04:52 AM.