40 replies to this topic

[BioHacker=Life]

https://www.change.o...d-19/u/26085359

[BioHacker=Life]

The researchers think the treatment could potentially be used to thwart outbreaks of new viruses like SARS.

https://www.medicaln...ticles/232632#1

 

Can Longecity and other life extension companies fund this research? Since pharma companies aren't interested in cures.

[ymc]

 

The researchers think the treatment could potentially be used to thwart outbreaks of new viruses like SARS.

https://www.medicaln...ticles/232632#1

 

Can Longecity and other life extension companies fund this research? Since pharma companies aren't interested in cures.

 

 

Well, this is a drug developed at MIT. I am sure if it works, it won't be short of funding.

[BioHacker=Life]

Well, this is a drug developed at MIT. I am sure if it works, it won't be short of funding.

 

Cures aren't as profitable as treatments it's why it's been 15 years and no pharma company want to fund it. It would replace every treatment for both viral infections and their symptoms costing the industry trillions in lost profits.

[ymc]

Cures aren't as profitable as treatments it's why it's been 15 years and no pharma company want to fund it. It would replace every treatment for both viral infections and their symptoms costing the industry trillions in lost profits.

 

Well, based on my google search, this thing was first publicized in 2011. If something this good coming from MIT couldn't get funding even from VCs or angels, then I tend to believe it is not working as well as expected. I suppose VCs or angels would be happy to see the pharma industry losing trillions. 

[zorba990]

Just open source it

[Hip]

Well, based on my google search, this thing was first publicized in 2011. If something this good coming from MIT couldn't get funding even from VCs or angels, then I tend to believe it is not working as well as expected. I suppose VCs or angels would be happy to see the pharma industry losing trillions.

 
This article explains why DRACO cannot get funding:
 

After working on his invention for 16 years, he's [Todd Rider] found himself in what he calls "the funding valley of death," too far along to get money from those who supported his preliminary studies and too far from market to get Big Pharma's backing.

 
So pharmaceutical companies will not invest because in DRACO because there is too long a way before it reaches the market. The only people who might invest in DRACO are government science research funding agencies, like the National Institutes of Health in the US. But these agencies have let DRACO languish for the last 16 years.
 

[BioHacker=Life]

Well, based on my google search, this thing was first publicized in 2011. If something this good coming from MIT couldn't get funding even from VCs or angels, then I tend to believe it is not working as well as expected. I suppose VCs or angels would be happy to see the pharma industry losing trillions. 

 

You believe it's not working not based on the research done so far showed it worked and the concept being sound but because people chose not to fund it because there is some basis uncited it doesn't work?

 

Well that seem completely baseless.

 

https://www.inverse....ne-will-pony-up

 

 

In fact, Rider turned to the crowd because research organizations and pharmaceutical companies have shrugged off his potentially world-changing innovation. This is curious because Rider’s credentials check out. He’s a trained biomedical researcher, an MIT engineer, and a Harvard Medical School regular. He invented DRACOs 15 years ago, and has eked out a steady stream of positive (though preliminary) results ever since. He is not a nutcase and his idea makes inherent sense. DRACOs work by seeking out RNA produced by viruses inside the cells they have infected. If found, the DRACO binds to it and activates a suicide switch, killing the cell. Healthy cells are left unharmed, and before long the infection is eradicated.

Pharmaceutical companies would rather not bet on promising early discoveries, especially when the intellectual property belongs to someone else, which reduces potential profitability significantly. And so Big Pharma focuses instead on patenting small tweaks to existing medicines.

 

 

 

 

Historically this is true and checks out.

[BioHacker=Life]

 
This article explains why DRACO cannot get funding:
 

 
So pharmaceutical companies will not invest because in DRACO because there is too long a way before it reaches the market. The only people who might invest in DRACO are government science research funding agencies, like the National Institutes of Health in the US. But these agencies have let DRACO languish for the last 16 years.
 

 

DARPA funded the research for NeuralLink's brain interface but no one except Elon Musk took it up to actually work towards bringing it to market. He's quite an outsider so less affected by industrial pressures. Since virtually all pharma companies are own or run by capitalists they have little incentives to cure any disease when it's more profitable to treat. While this is slowly changing in some areas like stem cell research for degenerative conditions antiviral research remains very slow especially in conditions like herpes or hiv where companies are well setup and expected to profit from their drugs for decades to come. It's been shown time and time again larger companies will actively prevent startups from threatening their income streams anyway they can. Investing in DRACO could easily upset the status quo putting those investors lives and business relationships at grave risk.

[Hip]

 It's been shown time and time again larger companies will actively prevent startups from threatening their income streams anyway they can. Investing in DRACO could easily upset the status quo putting those investors lives and business relationships at grave risk.

 

That's true, but in the area of drug development, many drugs fail before they get to market, because some flaw with them is found at some point (eg, they cause bad side effects or they don't actually work as well as it was hoped). So I would not have thought drug companies would see DRACO as an immediate threat.

 

I suspect if DRACO were a bit further developed, some pharma company would love to pick it up, as this drug could blow many the existing antiviral drugs out of the water, and so make a fortune for the company that backed it.  

 

One plus point of capitalism is that companies only care for their own profits, and so are not concerned if a new disruptive technology they are pioneering decimates the existing tech of other companies.

Edited by Hip, 06 April 2020 - 01:56 AM.

[BlueCloud]

But how much does he really need ? I only skimmed quickly through that BusinessInsider article, but it's hard to believe that he can't secure the extraordinarly low sum of 2 million dollars for such a revolutionary thing ... 2 millions isn't even the monthly lunch budget for most millionaires and billionaires around the world, and any European government health agency would fund 100x that sum without even flinching , if it could provide such a revolutionnary solution.

 

I really don't believe money is the reason here.

Edited by BlueCloud, 06 April 2020 - 05:32 PM.

[BioHacker=Life]

That's true, but in the area of drug development, many drugs fail before they get to market, because some flaw with them is found at some point (eg, they cause bad side effects or they don't actually work as well as it was hoped). So I would not have thought drug companies would see DRACO as an immediate threat.

 

I suspect if DRACO were a bit further developed, some pharma company would love to pick it up, as this drug could blow many the existing antiviral drugs out of the water, and so make a fortune for the company that backed it.  

 

One plus point of capitalism is that companies only care for their own profits, and so are not concerned if a new disruptive technology they are pioneering decimates the existing tech of other companies.

 

Generalizing isn't a good approach in determining the truth it's lasy work and leads to false assumptions. There was no reports anywhere of any issues with his method or the drug. It targeted ONLY virally infected cells so how could it have caused side effects? The developer believed in it enough to seek crowd funding something most researchers don't even bother to make the effort. He knew he was on to something. This is the smart bomb of viral infections.

 

If by blow you mean create a new less profitable drug that prevents patients from being on non curative drugs for life seriously affecting pharma companies profits yes. How far would any monopolized system go to protect itself? As far as they can. Pharma companies don't care about patient lives people are the product and capitalist want to make as much money off them as possible.

 

Make a fortune? Once people are cured from taking DRACO they never need to take it again. One time treatments are not anywhere near as profitable as lifelong ones. If everyone took it and everyone is cured guess what? There's no longer any demand for the drug...It's a very bad move from a economic standpoint which you continue to fail to see from their perceptive. It's a simple numbers game and cures rarely add up by comparison. There is simply little financial incentive for true cures for most diseases. It's why virtually no drug company is trying to get new antibiotics approved. Do we need them? Yes but no one cares. They aren't profitable enough.

 

Drug companies are much like nations that work with each other rather than go on all out war. Many drug companies pay other companies to not market generics so they can profit longer. Who truly pays for this? People.

But how much does he really need ? I only skimmed quickly through that BusinessInsider article, but it's hard to believe that he can't secure the extraordinarly low sum of 2 million dollars for such a revolutionary thing ... 2 millions isn't even the monthly lunch budget for most millionaires and billionaires around the world, and any European government health agency would fund 100x that sum without even flinching , if it could provide such a revolutionnary solution.

 

I really don't believe money is the reason here.

 

I guess we will never know huh...Funny how so little could prove or disprove how effective it is in humans yet no one is bothering to find out. Lives lost due to not funding potential cures for some reason don't count as murder.

[Hip]

Pharma companies don't care about patient lives people are the product and capitalist want to make as much money off them as possible.

I would suggest it is more complex that that: pharmaceutical companies consist of hundreds of scientists in the labs, who for the most part are passionate about curing medical problems and disease, and want to help humanity. The board of directors and the shareholders however may have different goals. So pharma companies are a bit Janus-faced. But don't say that they don't care about patients, because many of the scientists do.


 

Make a fortune? Once people are cured from taking DRACO they never need to take it again. One time treatments are not anywhere near as profitable as lifelong ones.

Real-world data indicates one-time curative antiviral treatments are viable and can be immensely profitable: if you look at the new hepatitis C drug Harvoni, which actually permanently cures hepatitis C virus infection, this drug had sales of $5 billion in its first year alone. It is making a fortune for its developer Gilead. Sure, each pill of Harvoni costs $1000, making it a really expensive drug; but if you want a permanent cure of hep C, it's the drug to get.


 

If by blow you mean create a new less profitable drug that prevents patients from being on non curative drugs for life seriously affecting pharma companies profits yes. How far would any monopolized system go to protect itself? As far as they can.

I think the example of Harvoni shows that it is perfectly possible to introduce a curative drug, even though it makes previous antiviral treatments redundant.


 

It's why virtually no drug company is trying to get new antibiotics approved. Do we need them? Yes but no one cares. They aren't profitable enough.

Agreed. You are basically arguing the point I mentioned earlier, which is that the only people who might invest in DRACO are government science research funding agencies.

It is well known that there's no profit in new antibiotics. Market forces and capitalism have failed to produce any new antibiotic drugs. But that's precisely why the development of new antibiotics has to be initiated by government programs, such as the new scheme the UK government has set up to stimulate pharmaceutical companies to develop the next generation of antibiotics.

Likewise, it should be governments which fund all the blue skies research necessary to get DRACO off the ground. If they don't, and if they don't start investing in some serious antiviral research, then the next pandemic which hits, which might well be much nastier than this one, may cause a real global catastrophe well beyond anything we are seeing now with coronavirus.

[BioHacker=Life]

I would suggest it is more complex that that: pharmaceutical companies consist of hundreds of scientists in the labs, who for the most part are passionate about curing medical problems and disease, and want to help humanity. The board of directors and the shareholders however may have different goals. So pharma companies are a bit Janus-faced. But don't say that they don't care about patients, because many of the scientists do.
 

 

You think it matters what the scientists think? They are in no position to make any decisions about what drugs are researched or approval is sought for. It's all done from the top down. You can not in any way prove those are passionate about anything other than a paycheck. Can you?
 

Real-world data indicates one-time curative antiviral treatments are viable and can be immensely profitable: if you look at the new hepatitis C drug Harvoni, which actually permanently cures hepatitis C virus infection, this drug had sales of $5 billion in its first year alone. It is making a fortune for its developer Gilead. Sure, each pill of Harvoni costs $1000, making it a really expensive drug; but if you want a permanent cure of hep C, it's the drug to get.


Hep C was already curable in many with interferon and ribavirin both drugs that lost their patents long ago. Gilead simply made a more effective drug for those who did not respond. Yes it's very expensive in the US where it costs a fraction of it in other countries. Most people can't even afford it because they charge so much from it. Where's that passion you were talking about in curing disease in making it available to all so Hep C is wiped out from society? They rather let people keep reinfecting others so there's always a need for their drug...for those who can afford it.

I think the example of Harvoni shows that it is perfectly possible to introduce a curative drug, even though it makes previous antiviral treatments redundant.

1 example of a drug that already had a cure for a disease people usually get via drug use. Colds, flus, herpes, hiv, hpv and any number of other viruses that have no cure and likely never will. AHCC cured several people of HPV in humans yet no drug company is doing anything to bring it to market. Why not? It made it to human studies and works. By your view there's no reason drug companies wouldn't love it. But then that would take away sales off all the treatments for HPV now wouldn't it? HPV claimed lives be damned.
 

Agreed. You are basically arguing the point I mentioned earlier, which is that the only people who might invest in DRACO are government science research funding agencies.

 

Might it abit hopeful even if they invested into it unless a drug company seeks FDA approval with it it's going nowhere. The gov doesn't decide which drugs are submitted for FDA approval and has no say in the matter. Private companies do.

It is well known that there's no profit in new antibiotics. Market forces and capitalism have failed to produce any new antibiotic drugs. But that's precisely why the development of new antibiotics has to be initiated by government programs, such as the new scheme the UK government has set up to stimulate pharmaceutical companies to develop the next generation of antibiotics.

 

Failed by design perhaps. 

Likewise, it should be governments which fund all the blue skies research necessary to get DRACO off the ground. If they don't, and if they don't start investing in some serious antiviral research, then the next pandemic which hits, which might well be much nastier than this one, may cause a real global catastrophe well beyond anything we are seeing now with coronavirus.

 

That would be ideal for governments then they can take over more power and control which is what anyone already in power wants and will do anything to justify it. Just look at pearl harbor the US gov knew it was provoking Japan into war and did it anyway. The cost of American lives didn't matter.

 

[Hip]

You think it matters what the scientists think? They are in no position to make any decisions about what drugs are researched or approval is sought for. It's all done from the top down. You can not in any way prove those are passionate about anything other than a paycheck. Can you?

 

Yes, but the markets and profit seeking are also often ethical mechanisms. If a drug company only has the finances to back one of two drugs, the first which will only benefit 10,000 patients, and the second which would benefit 10 million, of course they would back the second, as it will make much more money. But the second is also the ethical choice, as it maximizes the good done in the world. Utilitarianism, in other words.

 

I appreciate that when living very capitalist countries, especially in major cities, the psychological milieu is such that everything seems to come down to money and profit, one crass common denominator. I don't like this myself. I wish I lived in a more chilled out country.

Edited by Hip, 06 April 2020 - 10:47 PM.

[albedo]

Just pop into this project in similar scope which just got funded:

 

https://actu.epfl.ch...ci-gets-5-mill/

 

"Our aim is to find a single drug that can halt the activity of several different viruses,” says Stellacci. “We’ve already developed a treatment that works in vitro to block HIV, HRSV [human respiratory syncytial virus] and the dengue, Zika and herpes viruses. We’ve now added SARS-CoV-2 to our experiments. If our treatment turns out to be safe and effective, it can be used for all those diseases.”

[p75213]

Just pop into this project in similar scope which just got funded:

https://actu.epfl.ch...ci-gets-5-mill/

"Our aim is to find a single drug that can halt the activity of several different viruses,” says Stellacci. “We’ve already developed a treatment that works in vitro to block HIV, HRSV [human respiratory syncytial virus] and the dengue, Zika and herpes viruses. We’ve now added SARS-CoV-2 to our experiments. If our treatment turns out to be safe and effective, it can be used for all those diseases.”

Reinventing the wheel comes to mind.

[albedo]

Reinventing the wheel comes to mind.

 

Agree. Not new, e.g. I no longer heard about this one:

https://www.fastcomp...-killer-viruses
 

[Florin]

Agree. Not new, e.g. I no longer heard about this one:

https://www.fastcomp...-killer-viruses

 

Antiviral Materials@IBM Research-Almaden

https://researcher.w...bs.php?grp=9372

[hotbit]

I see this hype about DRACO, could somebody enlighten me and explain what DRACOs chemical structures are? How many DRACOs? I've tried to research this thing online, but so far I would have had almost the same success learning Harry Potter's magic.

[hotbit]

Agree. Not new, e.g. I no longer heard about this one:

https://www.fastcomp...-killer-viruses
 

 

IBM is inventing breakthrough solutions daily. But their money-making solutions are still full of bugs. If IBM would be right with their claims about new techs in just 20%, we would have now colonies in distant galaxies.

 

Scientists have a fund-raising mantras in their articles, cure for Alzheimer disease, cancer, what-not. But if you read carefully they secure themselves somewhere in 'small print' their tech needs another 10-20 years, which means they have no idea when or if at all it is going to work.

[Hip]

I see this hype about DRACO, could somebody enlighten me and explain what DRACOs chemical structures are? How many DRACOs? I've tried to research this thing online, but so far I would have had almost the same success learning Harry Potter's magic.

 

I think the search phrase you are after is dsRNA Activated Caspase Oligomerizer.

[hotbit]

I think the search phrase you are after is dsRNA Activated Caspase Oligomerizer.

 

Thanks.

This is the naming Rider was using since at least 2011, but still I have problems to find any specific information. It seems nobody apart of Rider knows chemical structure of these substances (at least those he was using)?

Looking for ''Caspase Oligomerize'' found this: https://www.nature.c...icles/cmi201744

Sheds some light.

While chemistry is something I have a good grasp of, advanced biochemistry is not and I don't have enough spare time to investigate for days or weeks.

So Rider talks more about a function than substance, and keeps his magic DRACOs in secret?  Or did I miss what they are due to the wall of the advanced biochemical language?

 

I have a sensitive nose to things that are more of a hoax than real solutions, and so far DRACO by Rider looks like one (big ideas, little substance).

[Hip]

DRACO works by targeting dsRNA, which is only produced in cells that have been infected by viruses. DRACO is a molecule which combines a dsRNA-binding protein bonded to another protein that induces cells to undergo apoptosis. So two proteins each with their own function which are bonded together. 

 

DRACO is drawn into virally-infected cells, and then kills them. Works for the majority of viruses, since nearly all viruses generate dsRNA in cells. 

 

 

You can read Todd Rider's 2011 paper here: Broad-Spectrum Antiviral Therapeutics.

[hotbit]

DRACO works by targeting dsRNA, which is only produced in cells that have been infected by viruses. DRACO is a molecule which combines a dsRNA-binding protein bonded to another protein that induces cells to undergo apoptosis. So two proteins each with their own function which are bonded together. 

 

DRACO is drawn into virally-infected cells, and then kills them. Works for the majority of viruses, since nearly all viruses generate dsRNA in cells. 

 

 

You can read Todd Rider's 2011 paper here: Broad-Spectrum Antiviral Therapeutics.

 

Thanks, I've seen this article. But what the hell is for example ''PTD-PKR-Apaf DRACO''? Maybe it's my biochemistry limitation, but it would make for me the same sense if DRACO would be exchanged for MAGIC in the above article.

 

Caspases (cysteine-aspartic proteases, cysteine aspartases or cysteine-dependent aspartate-directed proteases) are a family of protease enzymes playing essential roles in programmed cell death (including apoptosis, pyroptosis and necroptosis) and inflammation.

(Wikipedia)

 

Is DRACOs some types of chemicals that joints together several caspases molecules (oligomerizer)? If so, exactly what it is?

 

I can google

1) ''penicillin mechanism of action''

and

2) ''penicillin chemical structure''

to have some idea about the substance and process.

 

But with DRACO I have a made-up word DRACO, I can't find anything about the structure, although a little bit about the possible process / mechanism.

 

It might be my biochemistry limitations, but Rider sounds to me like ''I have a MAGIC (exchange for DRACO), it makes wonders, but I will not tell anything more".

 

P.S.
I apologize if my post feels unfriendly, that's not my intention!

[Hip]

Unfortunately I do not know any further details other than the basic mechanism I outlined in my previous post. If you want to investigate further, I think you will have to learn what terms like PTD mean (in the 2011 paper, PTD refers to protein transduction domain, and Google tells me PTDs are "small peptides able to carry proteins, peptides, nucleic acid, and nanoparticles, including viral particles, across the cellular membranes into cells").

Edited by Hip, 28 April 2020 - 09:46 PM.

[hotbit]

Unfortunately I do not know any further details other than the basic mechanism I outlined in my previous post. If you want to investigate further, I think you will have to learn what terms like PTD mean (in the 2011 paper, PTD refers to protein transduction domain, and Google tells me PTDs are "small peptides able to carry proteins, peptides, nucleic acid, and nanoparticles, including viral particles, across the cellular membranes into cells").

 

The problem is it's a steep path to learn. Some people hype Rider's DRACO, but at the and of the day only few have any idea what it is about. Overall idea is promising, but there is too little data. Rider's behaviour is questionable, he's published, as I'm aware, just one mediocre paper on the subject, I will remain a sceptic.

 

I'm not 20, I've seen claims about fuel cells, stem cells, flying cars and more. We should have colonized not only Mars, but distant galaxies by now. Any medicine/health related articles claiming breakthroughs I'm taking with an additioanal, BIG pinch of salt.

[Hip]

Any medicine/health related articles claiming breakthroughs I'm taking with an additioanal, BIG pinch of salt.

 

Lots of drugs developed by pharmaceutical companies never see the light of day, either because they do not work as well as promised, or because they create serious adverse effects which make them untenable. There are no guarantees that your shiny new drug idea will ever make it through the 15 years of R&D that it typically takes to get a drug  to market.

 

But one thing is for sure: if don't even begin on this 15 year journey, you stand zero chance of getting to the end.

[Florin]

...two crowdfunding campaigns for $90,000 both failed to reach their target in 2016.

This claim from the petition page is a very misleading. A total of $100k was raised from those campaigns which was exactly what Rider asked for.

[Kimer Med]

I have recently started working for a company that is attempting to pick up where Rider left off with DRACO. Our goal is nothing less than the elimination of all viral disease in humans, pets and livestock.

 

We believe DRACO can become the world's first broad-spectrum antiviral drug.

 

We have already made considerable progress.

 

If you'd like to know more, or join us in our efforts:

 

https://kimermed.co.nz/landing