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Repair\restore GABA interneurons

interneurons repair gaba hdac

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#1 Rorororo

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:59 AM


Hey,

 

would anyone what will repair\restore gaba interneurons from damage?

 

t-817ma *might* help but its not available with a responsible cost. 



#2 MentholFlavoring

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:21 PM

Excuse me if I'm wrong, is it related to HPPD?

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#3 Rorororo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:08 AM

Excuse me if I'm wrong, is it related to HPPD?

 

 

It is not. BUT I might see where you're getting at...gaba plays a large role in HPPD?  If so, look into HPPD remedies to find a solution for gaba interneuron repair?



#4 gamesguru

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 03:38 AM

magnolia has effects on gaba transaminase.  royal jelly and grapefruit promote the microglia system via GDNF signalling.  There are plenty of options out there


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#5 Rorororo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 05:40 AM

magnolia has effects on gaba transaminase.  royal jelly and grapefruit promote the microglia system via GDNF signalling.  There are plenty of options out there

 

 

I *believe* magnolia is a P.A.M. 

 

I found this on royal jelly:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29578001

 

It looks like its a no-go (no pun intended) 

 

 

I am looking in rejuvenating, repairing, creating new gaba interneurons. 

 

How?  I have ABSOLUTELY no idea.  I know it is actually possible to insert them and have the body use them.  I, of course, do not have access to lab made ones.

 

The information on GABA is extremely scarce. I can hardly find anything other than the first chemical in my post.  I should try and facilitate a group buy with the HPPD folks.  I am not sure if HPPD is related to GABA thought?


Edited by Rorororo, 24 April 2020 - 05:42 AM.


#6 Rorororo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 06:03 AM

Looks like HPPD is mostly consistent with serotonin drugs.  It won't give me a lead to finding out what I want.



#7 MentholFlavoring

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 10:08 AM

Thanks, you might be right. There is not a lot known about this condition. Some literature mentions dysfunctioning cortical serotonin interneurons with GABAergic outputs (?). However, cortical hyperexcitability is present which could be linked to GABA (some subjects find relief with benzodiazepine treatment)

 

But to keep on topic, there are some papers about stem cell research to reprogram cells into GABA neurons. There is also a promising research group working on converting astrocytes into GABAergic and glutamatergic neurons in vivo.

 

I am not sure if brain neurogenesis happens towards a GABAergic phenotype. If that is the case we need to find a way to somehow boost it.


Edited by MentholFlavoring, 24 April 2020 - 10:08 AM.


#8 gamesguru

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 11:13 AM

I *believe* magnolia is a P.A.M. 

 

I found this on royal jelly:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29578001

 

It looks like its a no-go (no pun intended)

 

Lowering GABA can have the opposite effect over time, of making your more relaxed.  It's a lot like people who use amphetamine can't feel focused without it, their new baseline is a soporific, half-sleepwalking state.

 

The effect on royal jelly on grapefruit on the microglia (support and cleaning system for the brain) as well as in parkinsons is really promising.  You don't traditionally think of grapefruit (the only source for "naringin") as a nootropic.


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#9 Rorororo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 07:29 PM

Thanks, you might be right. There is not a lot known about this condition. Some literature mentions dysfunctioning cortical serotonin interneurons with GABAergic outputs (?). However, cortical hyperexcitability is present which could be linked to GABA (some subjects find relief with benzodiazepine treatment)

 

 

 

I cant reply to your first tidbit of info since some of it is going over my head, especially, "dysfunctioning cortical serotonin interneurons with GABAergic outputs". I am not sure what that entails . In regards to cortical hyperexictability; it could be possible that GABA isn't the underlying problem here though.  It would be a deficiency or over-activity (most likely) that can contribute to this.  Specifically, dysfunction of the 5-ht receptor (the one that controls hallucinations). It could be that it is overactive, pumping out glutamate and causing hyperecitability.  Infact, a prolonged exposure to excessive glutamate will damage gaba inter-neurons overtime. I am guessing it *could* be a symptom of HPPD. 

 

 

 

But to keep on topic, there are some papers about stem cell research to reprogram cells into GABA neurons. There is also a promising research group working on converting astrocytes into GABAergic and glutamatergic neurons in vivo.

I seen those.  It's promising and exciting but not realistic.  At least, for the person I am looking this up for.  They can't afford any stem cell transplants in the first place.  I think its multiple of thousands of dollars.  At this point, its not worth investing money for this; their inter-neurons aren't that damaged.

 

 

I am not sure if brain neurogenesis happens towards a GABAergic phenotype. If that is the case we need to find a way to somehow boost it.

 

I agree with this approach.  It takes more investigation but neurogenesis *might* help.  As this happened to the person I am helping a couple years ago, this might help: longecity.org/forum/topic/94077-repairing-the-brain/ It suggests with evidence to take Curcumin  along with Methylene blue. To regenerate scar tissue.  I am not sure in that combination or a process. I need to look more into it.  It really seems like promising stuff though; they did their research.  

 

Lowering GABA can have the opposite effect over time, of making your more relaxed.  It's a lot like people who use amphetamine can't feel focused without it, their new baseline is a soporific, half-sleepwalking state.

 

The effect on royal jelly on grapefruit on the microglia (support and cleaning system for the brain) as well as in parkinsons is really promising.  You don't traditionally think of grapefruit (the only source for "naringin") as a nootropic.

 

The problem with this case is actual damage.  I would argue that this approach will be good for down regulation but maybe not for actual damage though. Also, the interneurons are most likely damaged, not the actual gaba receptors.  I don't think this can help.  

 

 

 

The person went through severe stress a few years ago for a prolonged time.  It caused excessive glutmate to a point that actually damaged gaba interneurons.  They now have an anxiety disorder from this.  It subsided through an aggressive approach of various approaches but it might still be lingering. 


Edited by Rorororo, 24 April 2020 - 07:47 PM.


#10 Rorororo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 08:52 PM

Looks a regimen with noopept might do the trick:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25573367

 

 

 

Application of nootropic agent Noopept on hippocampal slices from Wistar rats enhanced the inhibitory component of total current induced by stimulation of Shaffer collaterals in CA1 pyramidal neurons, but did not affect the excitatory component. A direct correlation between the increase in the amplitude of inhibitory current and agent concentration was found. The substance did not affect the release of inhibitory transmitters from terminals in the pyramidal neurons, which indicated changes in GABAergic interneurons.

 
 

 

 

Perhaps a stack of noopept with Curcumin, exercise (nogo-a inhibition), ALCAR during the day and then Curcumin, Ginseng & C. skull cap at night for 1.5 months then noopept with Curcumin, exercise, ALCAR & Methylene blue for a bit?  It takes more reading but some combination from the guidance with that post will help.   Obviously trying to minimize the stack as possible.  I would be afraid to try noopept off the bat with methylene blue. 


Edited by Rorororo, 24 April 2020 - 09:49 PM.


#11 gamesguru

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 10:19 PM

I don't think this can help.

 

Ok, I mean glial cells are the backbone and waste disposal system for the brain.  But if you think it can't help..



#12 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 12:05 AM

Ok, I mean glial cells are the backbone and waste disposal system for the brain.  But if you think it can't help..

 

 

Perhaps a regimen where someone cleans up the brain at first with glial cells.  Then try a regime for repair.   It will take more research to see the best & efficient approach but it should help, at least I think so, it makes sense in my head. 

 

If you say its promising for Parkinsons, I am curious if it would be for Alzheimers and\or dementia.  If so, that would give me confidence it will be a good approach to try and 'clean up' at first then attack it. 


Edited by Rorororo, 25 April 2020 - 12:08 AM.


#13 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 12:26 AM

I need to double check this but it looks like an increase in NRG1 expression leads to an increase of GABA inter-neurons. According to: https://www.jneurosc...content/31/1/15

 

Looks like this herb can help?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26261541

 

This all needs a deep look though, of course. 

 

 

Upon speculation....GABA might play a role in cardio related things. I know people get anxiety attacks in their chest (around their heart).   

 

Also that 'medication' is a whole bunch of herbs combined.  I am curious what increases NRG1.  Also, if an increase in expression in NRG1 would help restore GABA interneurons. 


Edited by Rorororo, 25 April 2020 - 12:35 AM.


#14 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 02:02 AM

You also have a supply of these waiting in your olfactory bulb.

 

https://www.biorxiv....9511v1.full.pdf

 

 

Another approach would be to look at intra-nasal solutions.  What can help and assist these neurons to migrate.  A quick guess would be P-21 nasal spray.  

 

A crude way to tackle this problem (in case anyone stumbles upon this looking for assistance) would be a regime where you clean your system with glial cells first.  Then attack it by means of repairing the scared tissue: https://www.longecit...ring-the-brain/ and P-21. Theoretically, the cells should go to the places they are meant to go.  Exercise a lot to increase the probability.  Afterwards, try and again attack it with noopept and the same regimen https://www.longecit...ring-the-brain/

 

This all needs further research.  If a direct method (NRG1 expression?) can be achieved then obviously one should do that. 


Edited by Rorororo, 25 April 2020 - 02:04 AM.


#15 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 02:33 AM

 

 

The effect on royal jelly on grapefruit on the microglia (support and cleaning system for the brain) as well as in parkinsons is really promising.  You don't traditionally think of grapefruit (the only source for "naringin") as a nootropic.

 

 

If you can give me more information about royal jelly and grapefruit, it would be appreciated.  I am now intrigued.  Looks like there is studies showing it helps with Alzheimers. 



#16 gamesguru

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 01:20 PM

If you can give me more information about royal jelly and grapefruit, it would be appreciated.  I am now intrigued.  Looks like there is studies showing it helps with Alzheimers. 

 

I believe they're both "healthy", grapefruit ask a doctor if you take medicines it slows the liver down.

 

Royal Jelly is more stimulating and leaves you with a light feeling in your stomach.  I have raw honey infused with it at a low level ~400mg daily.

 

Naringin I don't get daily because grapefruit is a bit awkward.  But most days, and it is really a mild supplement I don't notice it on my body or mind.  If you told me it had longevity and anti-addiction effects along with much else i would really need to pay attention to notice.

 

So keep that in mind when considering these two studies, the science is one thing but your experience is just as valuable.

Royal jelly also has some study on parkinson but the effect is weak

 

Naringin protects the nigrostriatal dopaminergic projection through induction of GDNF in a neurotoxin model of Parkinson's disease.

These results indicate that naringin could impart to DA neurons the important ability to produce GDNF as a therapeutic agent against PD with anti-inflammatory effects, suggesting that naringin is a beneficial natural product for the prevention of DA degeneration in the adult brain.

 

Naringenin attenuates behavioral derangements induced by social defeat stress in mice via inhibition of acetylcholinesterase activity, oxidative stress and release of pro-inflammatory cytokines

These findings suggest that naringenin attenuates SDS-induced neurobehavioral deficits through inhibition of acetylcholinesterase activity, oxidative stress and release of pro-inflammatory cytokines.


Oral administration of royal jelly facilitates mRNA expression of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor and neurofilament H in the hippocampus of the adult mouse brain.

Our results revealed that RJ selectively facilitates the mRNA expression of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF), a potent neurotrophic factor acting in the brain, and neurofilament H, a specific marker predominantly found in neuronal axons, in the adult mouse hippocampus. These observations suggest that RJ shows neurotrophic effects on the mature brain via stimulation of GDNF production, and that enhanced expression of neurofilament H mRNA is involved in events subsequently caused by GDNF. RJ may play neurotrophic and/or neuroprotective roles in the adult brain through GDNF.

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#17 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 08:32 PM

Thanks for the info!  I have to spend sometime to read, map everything out and ensure an efficacious regimen.  There is so many contradicting articles to make maters worse. To be honest, the  royal jelly and gaba article repelled me. There is a lot of variables involved of course though

 

 

I believe they're both "healthy", grapefruit ask a doctor if you take medicines it slows the liver down.

 

Royal Jelly is more stimulating and leaves you with a light feeling in your stomach.  I have raw honey infused with it at a low level ~400mg daily.

 

Naringin I don't get daily because grapefruit is a bit awkward.  But most days, and it is really a mild supplement I don't notice it on my body or mind.  If you told me it had longevity and anti-addiction effects along with much else i would really need to pay attention to notice.

 

So keep that in mind when considering these two studies, the science is one thing but your experience is just as valuable.

Royal jelly also has some study on parkinson but the effect is weak

 

Naringin protects the nigrostriatal dopaminergic projection through induction of GDNF in a neurotoxin model of Parkinson's disease.

 

Naringenin attenuates behavioral derangements induced by social defeat stress in mice via inhibition of acetylcholinesterase activity, oxidative stress and release of pro-inflammatory cytokines

Oral administration of royal jelly facilitates mRNA expression of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor and neurofilament H in the hippocampus of the adult mouse brain.

 



#18 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 10:04 PM

Looks like Fluoxetine will do the trick!

 

https://molecularbra...19-0489-5#Sec12



#19 Rorororo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 11:53 PM

A simple regimen with: curcumin, exercise & Fluoxetine will work for a variety of GABA problems :).  You can also try curcumin, exercise & noopept.    Then you could always do my 'cruede' regimen albeit more research is needed.  I also read that Fabomotizole will help with GABA problems but it wont help with this case (interneurons) 

 

Fluoxetine seems to generally well tolerated towards everything between usage and withdraws unlike other SSRIs

This study used a fairly large dose that is equivalent to 40 mg / day with Fluoxetine btw. 

 

Thanks for everyone that helped! 


Edited by Rorororo, 25 April 2020 - 11:55 PM.


#20 DaveX

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 03:53 AM

Fluoxetine is one of the main SSRIs and has pretty much the same side-effect as any SSRI at same strength by way of being SSRIs, including a number of subtler side-effects which may be substance specific. I don't know where people always pull these phrases from that a primarily-used medication of some sort has less side-effects than others of its kind. It seems like something they come up with themselves or google in this form to get hyperselective results from the producer or vacuous health-guides.

#21 Rorororo

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 04:15 AM

Fluoxetine is one of the main SSRIs and has pretty much the same side-effect as any SSRI at same strength by way of being SSRIs, including a number of subtler side-effects which may be substance specific. I don't know where people always pull these phrases from that a primarily-used medication of some sort has less side-effects than others of its kind. It seems like something they come up with themselves or google in this form to get hyperselective results from the producer or vacuous health-guides.

 

 

No need to be so aggressive.  

 

Yes, I should disclaim that they were, indeed anecdotal reports. Fluoxetine has a long half life which contributes to the lack of withdrawals.  You can start taking them every 4-5 days then stop. 

 

Also, a SSRI in this case that fixes the problem will be better than the problem without the SSRI. Everything has side effects.  In this case, the PROS out weigh the CONS.  Have you ever lived with anxiety?  They aren't enjoying life. 



#22 gamesguru

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 06:09 PM

I would agree more suitable solutions than fluoxetine.  Green tea catechins have recently found potent modulation on the whole serotonin system[1].  Magnesium and proanthocyanins (5-HT3 antagonist) boost these actions.  No need to take drastic action, that could have more drawbacks than anything..


Edited by gamesguru, 27 April 2020 - 06:11 PM.

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#23 Rorororo

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 08:04 PM

I would agree more suitable solutions than fluoxetine.  Green tea catechins have recently found potent modulation on the whole serotonin system[1].  Magnesium and proanthocyanins (5-HT3 antagonist) boost these actions.  No need to take drastic action, that could have more drawbacks than anything..

 

 

The problem is if they would actually efficacious for the problem.  With prozac, it shows a direct correlation that could mediate the problem.  If there is something else that exists, they I am all ears.  I don't think anything exists with studies.  Yeah, indirect solutions like neurogenesis and tons of exercise might help do the trick but how long will that take?  With prozac, you're looking at 30 days.  With traditional methods, it could be years. 



#24 gamesguru

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 09:37 PM

The problem is if they would actually efficacious for the problem.  With prozac, it shows a direct correlation that could mediate the problem.  If there is something else that exists, they I am all ears.  I don't think anything exists with studies.  Yeah, indirect solutions like neurogenesis and tons of exercise might help do the trick but how long will that take?  With prozac, you're looking at 30 days.  With traditional methods, it could be years. 

 

I don't think studies exist to show it would help with this either, it's speculation.  From what I know it is actually a pretty nasty chemical and i wouldn't touch it at all.  If something can't be taken indefinitely and safely, I don't dabble at all.  I prefer something milder which can be a lifestyle choice (i.e. taken the rest of my life), so I don't mind to wait years for benefits to show up.

 

There are certainly studies showing this.  Bacopa enhances dendritic arborization and axonal outgrowth, Nogo, BDNF, 5-HT, the whole 9 yards.  The benefit to many of these things is they are cumulative.  You can take them a bit, quit without any withdrawal or rebound, then take them back at your leisure.  They aren't harsh, they often don't require medical supervision, and they can be freakishly effective if attacked from the right angle.


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#25 Rorororo

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 09:55 PM

I don't think studies exist to show it would help with this either, it's speculation.  From what I know it is actually a pretty nasty chemical and i wouldn't touch it at all.  If something can't be taken indefinitely and safely, I don't dabble at all.  I prefer something milder which can be a lifestyle choice (i.e. taken the rest of my life), so I don't mind to wait years for benefits to show up.

 

There are certainly studies showing this.  Bacopa enhances dendritic arborization and axonal outgrowth, Nogo, BDNF, 5-HT, the whole 9 yards.  The benefit to many of these things is they are cumulative.  You can take them a bit, quit without any withdrawal or rebound, then take them back at your leisure.  They aren't harsh, they often don't require medical supervision, and they can be freakishly effective if attacked from the right angle.

 

 

I agree but I argue on the presumption that I don't *think* a small trial of a SSRI will be that detrimental. My argument is based anecdotally though. Especially, if you take cautionary steps afterwards.  I am talking about noopept and P-21. I *feel* that people start complaining about the negative effects of SSRIs after continued use (months).  The studies that demonstrate cognitive benefits or neurogenesis on SSRIs are small trials of SSRIs (weeks) which is a premise on my argument. 

 

In-terms of Bacopa, I agree.  However, there is no direct speculation that shows it can help inter-neurons.  It may help indirectly from the evidence that have been established so far. However, I don't have the knowledge to connect the dots in this case.

 

I found this:

 

Effects of serotonin and the 5-HT2C/1C receptor agonist. DOl on neurons of the cerebellar dentate/interpositus nuclei: possible involvement of a GABAergic interneuron.

 

 

which might coincide with my hypothesis that interneuron damage may be a symptom of HPPD.  I found this: https://www.longecit...hexa-log/page-2

 

Not everyone has 6 months though or can wait 6 months.  A regimen with bacopa might help speed things up though.  I really don't know.  It could also support my hypothesis that intranasal solutions can help with intraneurons.  Low doses of intranasal insulin are also shown to raise GABA levels and activate GABA(a). 

 

If one wants to strategic (which requires an assumption that they agree that damage to interneurons is a symptom of HPPD), then, they should go on HPPD forums and see if prozac helped with stress and or anxiety.  If it did, then maybe proceed (understanding the downsides). If not, look for other solutions.  I might actually do this...right now.  (so far its mixed). If one wants to do this, maybe make a journal on who it helped, their symptoms and if it was long lasting. Then do it for the opposite.  

 

In any case, thank you all for your input.  SSRIs can be scary stuff.  It requires deep thought, consideration & thorough research.

 

Overall, gamesguru, I agree with you. This needs to be attacked from the right angle.  Which angle that may be?  I do not know yet.  Hopefully, I can come up with something concrete with avoidance of SSRIs.  Then again, it may only be that prozac is the only pharm. that can be used here.  I will, of course, perform more research and possible angles of attack in the next week or two.   


Edited by Rorororo, 27 April 2020 - 10:52 PM.


#26 Rorororo

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 11:13 PM

Looks like CBD will do it:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29574880

 

I am now thinking of ditching the SSRI and coming up with a safer regimen, following gamesguru's advice.  Bacopa, CBD, curcumin, exercise & intranasal insulin. Perhaps, noopept after 6 or so months of insulin. I believe CBD will *at least* mask the problem until it's properly addressed.


Edited by Rorororo, 27 April 2020 - 11:15 PM.


#27 gamesguru

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 12:54 AM

why suppose interneurons are even the issue, or that a general approach won't also help them?

 

this CBD study is for epilepsy.  IIRC it only works for certain types, childhood epilepsy mostly.  i think it is a good overall supplement but no silver bullet

 

the insulin is also questionable.  noopept i have heard good and bad things, like anything i would approach it with caution


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#28 Rorororo

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 01:46 AM

why suppose interneurons are even the issue, or that a general approach won't also help them?

 

this CBD study is for epilepsy.  IIRC it only works for certain types, childhood epilepsy mostly.  i think it is a good overall supplement but no silver bullet

 

the insulin is also questionable.  noopept i have heard good and bad things, like anything i would approach it with caution

 

It is a problem with interneurons; that I know of.

 

Too be honest: my energy is drained on this issue.  I didn't look into CBD that much.  I just saw - CBD restores interneurons.  However, I know the complaint used CBD in the past, which, CBD did help with anxiety.  So it might just *mask* it for now.  A mask might be suitable for this purpose, in terms of a low risk attack.

 

The insulin - yes, its questionable.  Though, its hopeful. It relies on a lot of speculation and it is just one user's report.  

 

Noopept, I agree.  I heard good and bad things about it.  It will take some time to assess it and see if it's worth trying.  I heard scary things about noopept but *so far* its from people using heroic dosses, IIRC.  

 

I just hope this overall thread can help some out in the future.  If I ever touch base on this again and find more, I will report back.  Other than that, I am sorta drained.  Perhaps, in the future, someone that is more educated on this matter can chime in. I don't think a lot of people know about GABA interneurons, specifically.  The main focus is usually the receptors. If that so said person, exists & they ever see this thread, that is. 



#29 gamesguru

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 12:09 PM

It is a problem with interneurons; that I know of.

 

and how troubling is the "damage" exactly?  Sometimes we whack a fly with a hammer, making it far worse and turning a fine thing unwell.

 

GABA interneurons are involved with another NT on the other end, often dopamine or serotonin.  i found this study on dopamine interneurons with amphetamine use disorder.  I can say for GABA and brain health specifically, it definitely helps to shore up nutritional holes.. a magnesium supplement, some oysters for zinc, sunbathed mushrooms for vitamin D, brazil nuts for selenium, either flaxseed or sardines, and for vitamin E some nuts/seeds, olive oil or barley.  Doesn't have to be every day, just 60%

 

serotonin is an interesting one, only 100,000 5-HT neurons in the whole human brain.  it's no wonder then ecstasy can be so damaging—curious, though, how its abuse oftener results in inattentiveness than depression.

 

Glutamate is also involved in most diseases of the mind.  Running short courses—one-time uses—with things that often aren't tolerated well on a permanent basis has sometimes helped.


Edited by gamesguru, 28 April 2020 - 12:14 PM.

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#30 DaveX

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 04:30 PM

No need to be so aggressive.

Yes, I should disclaim that they were, indeed anecdotal reports. Fluoxetine has a long half life which contributes to the lack of withdrawals. You can start taking them every 4-5 days then stop.

Also, a SSRI in this case that fixes the problem will be better than the problem without the SSRI. Everything has side effects. In this case, the PROS out weigh the CONS. Have you ever lived with anxiety? They aren't enjoying life.


That wasn't "aggressive", and no need to tell such random lies or vague generalities with absolute certainty. Or don't expect everyone to just agree quietly. Disagreement has to be expected. Many people have issues with SSRIs and they were not "better than the issue" (let alone any random issue, which you can't assume with certainty to address anyway). Keep doing what you want, but talking this way is so unbelievably naive and know-it-all... SSRIs aren't a new topic and all their positive clichés are well-known (and very old), but it's not as simple as that.

Edited by DaveX, 28 April 2020 - 04:31 PM.

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