14 replies to this topic

[simfish]

SO of course, some nootropics are acute, or act almost immediately - others, you can only see their effects over the course of a few months.

So what are the best for all-nighters? Of course modafinil beats all, but it's prescription only, so I have to search for some other long-term solution. And adrafinil - isn't all that effective.

L-tyrosine might work for some, but not for others...

Hmm, ginkgo could be of some benefit, but not much.

Any ideas?

[simfish]

Here are some:

30 grams Aniracetam Powder $11.00
700 grams Piracetam Powder $19.99
100 grams Phenibut Powder $39.99
30 grams Sulbutiamine $22.99
200 grams Glucuronolactone Powder $9.99

All of which I believe, are stimulants (except for the racetams).

Ginkgo is another stimulant

Of course, stimulants ==> all-nighters. But some stimulants work better than others for that purpose.

[opales]

What's wrong with caffeine? It's tried and true.

[xanadu]

Phenibut is not a stimulant, it is the opposite. Piracetam is not a stimulant though it's mentally stimulating over a period of time. Might as well list alcar as a stimulant.

[kenj]

What's wrong with caffeine?

Moderate dosing is essential.
Caffeine is the foxy two-edged sword, - in lower dosing (1-2 small cups of coffee) it can wake up your brain basically in releasing moderate epinephrine but in higher chronic dosing it'll wreak your nervous system (depending on your serotonin system) with phenyl-N-methyltransferase converting excessive dopamine (norepinephrine) to epinephrine and raising cortisol to further deplete serotonin in the (raphe) nuclei.
Stimulants are generally a silly method to entertain oneself but an efficient method to tax your adrenals. [nuk]

That is, - I like a cup of coffee (1) on a semi-full stomach, (2) when in a relaxed state of mind and (3) ideally not earlier than 1 PM or later than 8 PM.

[beej]

Dexies [thumb]

[simfish]

Caffeine - it actually doesn't help me that much. After all, not all drugs affect everyone equally. I do stay up longer on it, but I get side effects (stomachache that pretty much counteracts any enhanced productivity) and I'm also plain scared of tolerance. One could try caffeine on some days, and then some other drugs on other days.

And I still can't get amphetamines. Bah.

And Red Bull has calories - and I'm into the calorie restriction thingie. And actually I did try it, but it backfired and I went asleep.

[doug123]

I cannot handle any amphetamines either. WAY too intense.

[zoolander]

Dexies  [thumb]

dexies = highly addictive = stupid suggestion

[Ghostrider]

L-Tyrosine seems to help me for maybe one or two consecutive days/nights (with sleep in between, I have never in my life stayed up for longer than about 24 hours). It will provide you with energy, but only short-term. If you continue usage, it will most likely create no benefit or possibly adverse effects on the third or fourth day. At least it did for me anyway.

[emerson]

dexies = highly addictive = stupid suggestion

I think you're being a bit too harsh with that. Certainly there's potential for addiction. But when we're talking about one, or at least very rare, all nighters the risk for anyone who doesn't have a 'very' addictive personality has to be pretty low. Either that, or my two time use of them in high school is testament to godlike willpower. I'll happily take that judgement as well.

I'd say that in the long run it's the legality which poses most of the danger. If I remember correctly, being convicted for a drug related crime in the states nullifies consideration for government grants and loans. Yelling around for dextroamphetamines might be quite a bit more noticeable than the usual and semi-accepted pot use in many places.

[doug123]

Dexies  [thumb]

dexies = highly addictive = stupid suggestion

For many people I know, nothing else works close to as well as good old d-amphetamine.

A stupid suggestion for someone to perhaps take Dextroamphetamine, Adderall, Ritalin...etc. in an indiscriminate fashion without counsel of a medical practitioner? I would tend to agree that the risk would by far outweigh the benefits...but d amp has been around for decades, and under proper medical care it seems to work for many...

I have tried to argue against the use of amphetamine in cases of Attention deficit disorder, but have been floored by the evidence stating use of these compounds is actually quite safe under proper medical care. Yes, there is higher chance of side effects than Wellbutrin or Modafinil...but safety on clinical basis for amphetamine use in these disorders is quite well established.

Amphetamines are in fact considered the "first line" treatment for those with attention related disorders...Wellbutrin, Strattera, and Modafinil are...sort of catching on...this is a relatively new development...with certain groups conferring more benefits than any other...especially individuals with a tendency to addiction or a mood disorder...where amphetamines may induce cravings leading to relapse of drug addiction or a psychotic episode.

J Clin Psychiatry. 2006 Apr;67(4):611-9. Related Articles, Links 


A randomized double-blind trial of paroxetine and/or dextroamphetamine and problem-focused therapy for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in adults.

Weiss M, Hechtman L; The Adult ADHD Research Group.

Division of Child Psychiatry, Department of Psychiatry, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. mweiss@cw.bc.ca

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of psychotherapy, dextroamphetamine, and/or paroxetine on attention-deficit/hyperactivity-disorder (ADHD) in adults. METHOD: Ninety-eight adults with DSM-IV ADHD were randomly assigned to receive psychotherapy and dextroamphetamine, paroxetine, both, or placebo for 20 weeks. A 2 x 2 factorial design compared patients who received dextroamphetamine versus no dextroamphetamine with patients who received paroxetine versus no paroxetine. Data were collected from August 2000 until May 2002. RESULTS: One half of the 98 enrolled subjects were found to have at least 1 lifetime mood or anxiety disorder on the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV. Sixty percent of patients who received medication and 80% of those who received placebo completed the 5-month trial. ADHD symptoms were significantly (p = .012) lower in patients in the completer group who received dextroamphetamine. Paroxetine had no effect on ADHD. Hamilton Rating Scales for Anxiety (HAM-A) and Depression (HAM-D) scores were low to start, and no treatment differences were evident at endpoint. Significantly (p < .001) more patients in the completer group were rated by clinicians as ADHD responders if they received dextroamphetamine (85.7%) or combined treatment (66.7%) versus paroxetine (20.0%) or placebo (21.1%). Significantly (p = .003) more patients in the completer group were rated by clinicians as mood/anxiety responders if they received paroxetine (100%) or combined treatment (73.3%) versus those receiving dextroamphetamine (57.15%) or placebo (47.4%). Clinicians rated any patient who received medication and psychological therapy as significantly more improved overall than those who received placebo and psychological therapy (intent to treat: p = .033; completers: p = .001). CONCLUSION: ADHD symptoms improved with dextroamphetamine. Mood and internalizing symptoms were seen as improved with paroxetine by clinicians, despite absence of response on the HAM-A and HAM-D. The presence of a lifetime internalizing disorder attenuated the response to dextroamphetamine. Patients who received both dextroamphetamine and paroxetine had more severe adverse events but did not show greater improvement overall than patients treated with 1 medication. Clinical Trials Registry #GSK707.

PMID: 16669726 [PubMed - in process]

J Clin Psychiatry. 1998;59 Suppl 7:42-9.

Psychopharmacology of ADHD: children and adolescents.

Findling RL, Dogin JW.

Department of Psychiatry, Case Western Reserve University, School of Medicine, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

Medications can provide significant salutary effects for children and adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).Due to their well-established safety and efficacy, psychostimulants are generally considered first-line pharmacotherapy for most young patients with ADHD. Since psychostimulant treatment often requires frequent dosing and may be associated with unacceptable side effects and risks, other classes of medication have been studied as possible treatment alternatives. The most extensively researched nonstimulant medications are the tricyclic antidepressants. In addition, alpha2 agonists have also been shown to reduce symptoms of ADHD. However, concerns regarding potential cardiotoxicity have tempered the enthusiasm for both of these classes of medication. Newer antidepressants such as bupropion and venlafaxine may hold promise as treatments for ADHD.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 9680052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Psychopharmacol Bull. 1990;26(2):249-53. Related Articles, Links 

S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM) in adults with ADHD, RS: preliminary results from an open trial.

Shekim WO, Antun F, Hanna GL, McCracken JT, Hess EB.

Neuropsychiatric Institute, University of California, Los Angeles 90024-6967.

The psychostimulants d-amphetamine and methylphenidate are thought to be the most effective treatment in children, adolescents, and adults with attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) because they potentiate both dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE) at the synaptic cleft. These medications are not free from side effects and controversy. Newer effective and safe treatments are needed. S-Adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM), the active form of methionine, acts as a methyl donor and is involved in many metabolic pathways. It has beta adrenergic and DA receptor agonist activity. We have been using oral SAM in a sample of well-diagnosed adults with ADHD, residual state (RS) in a 4-week open trial to establish SAM effectiveness and safety and in a 9-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover trial. Preliminary data from the open trial reveal that 75 percent (6 out of 8 male) patients improve on it. The 2 who did not improve had not improved on methylphenidate trial. Improvement ranged from moderate to marked, with minimal and transient side effects that did not interfere with functioning.

PMID: 2236465 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Expert Opin Pharmacother. 2005 Jun;6(6):1003-18.

Safety, efficacy and extended duration of action of mixed amphetamine salts extended-release capsules for the treatment of ADHD.

Weisler RH.

Department of Psychiatry, Duke University Medical Center, 700 Spring Forest Rd. Suite 125, Raleigh, NC 27609, USA. rweisler@aol.com

Stimulant medications have proven to be effective in reducing the core symptoms of hyperactivity, impulsivity and inattention and are considered the first line of therapy for patients with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Mixed amphetamine salts extended-release capsules (MAS XR; Adderall XR, Shire Pharmaceuticals Group) include immediate-release pellets of mixed amphetamine salts that release the first half of the dose upon ingestion and delayed-release pellets that begin to release active drug approximately 4 h later. The MAS XR capsule contains the same 3:1 ratio of dextroamphetamine to levoamphetamine as do mixed amphetamine salts immediate-release tablets (MAS IR; Adderall), Shire Pharmaceuticals Group), and the bioavailability and pharmacokinetic profiles of MAS XR 20 mg are comparable to those with MAS IR 10 mg b.i.d. MAS XR has a rapid onset of action--within 1.5 h--and provides 12 h coverage. The efficacy, safety and extended duration of action of MAS XR have been established through clinical studies in school-age children, adolescents and adults.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15952928 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Expert Opin Drug Saf. 2004 Mar;3(2):93-100.

Evaluation of risks associated with short- and long-term psychostimulant therapy for treatment of ADHD in children.

Kociancic T, Reed MD, Findling RL.

Department of Psychiatry, University Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, Cleveland, OH 44106, USA.

Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a common condition during childhood that is associated with significant psychosocial dysfunction.Psychostimulants are the compounds that have been most extensively studied for the treatment of ADHD in children. There is substantial scientific evidence that several methylphenidate- and amphetamine-based preparations have acute efficacy in the treatment of this condition in children. The short-term safety and tolerability of these compounds has been reasonably well-studied and the risks associated with psychostimulant therapy in the short-term are generally acceptable. However, the amount of long-term effectiveness and safety data relating to these compounds is relatively small. Data that do exist suggest that long-term treatment with psychostimulants in appropriately diagnosed patients may be associated with salutary effects as well as relatively modest risks. Until more extensive, methodologically rigorous data are available, it appears that judicious psychostimulant pharmacotherapy of ADHD in children may be justified.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15006715 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[doug123]

Nootropic dietary supplement compounds are quite safe assuming you have a legitimate finished product...I would be much more worried about higher chance of danger from ingesting contaminants from dietary supplement nootropics as the market is not regulated as the pharmaceutical market is...and low purity/contamination with harmful impurities (such as lead, other heavy metals, microbiological impurities, and who knows what else?)

It's not like the conventional nootropics are available at the corner store. No pharmaceutical company with a name manufactures nootropics...it's always some no name lab in China whose manufacturing operations are not known to be in accordance with the International Conference on Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Registration of Pharmaceuticals for Human Use (ICH). There are some chemicals used to manufacture chemicals, and others to manufacture drugs for human use...ideally, you don't want to be ingesting reagent grade nootropics manufacutured by the lowest bidder in a Chinese "chemical factory..."

I'm not trying to generate any hysteria; but I would like to point out the extreme irony in even mentioning the word: "Safety" when one is ingesting high doses of racetams and other dietary supplement products produced in China and sold in the USA as "food products" that are in fact sold online without being screened for contaminants..ask your doctor: which they think is more dangerous: taking unregulated dietary supplements produced in unknown labs in China or taking a prescription for Dexedrine written by ones doctor...if your nootropic supplier implements rigorous quality control, that would make much more sense...but otherwise...hmmm, I'd stay safe and not mess with stuff that barely seems to work anyways...

The dietary supplement market is infested with impurities...it would be naive to assume the nootropics could somehow be shielded from any and all contamaination...I would worry that these rare and unregulated products would in fact be even more likely to be contaminated considering they are synthetic compounds made in no name labs in China...take the purest stuff you can, if you are going to take Chinese imported "food products"...imported Chinese food isn't exactly my choice for cuisine...

The ICH website: http://www.ich.org/c.../276-254-1.html

Consumer Reports (May 2004) and the “Dirty Dozen” unsafe herbs still readily available

· “CONSUMER REPORTS has identified a dozen (supplements) that … are too dangerous to be on the market. Yet they are.” Introductory paragraph in red ink.

· Factors contributing to unsafe supplements on the market.

· “ ‘The standards for demonstrating a supplement is hazardous are so high that it can take the FDA years to build a case,’ said Bruce Silverglade, legal director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, a Washington D.C., consumer advocacy group”(pg. 12).

· “The FDA’s supplement division is understaffed and underfunded, with about 60 people and a budget of only 10 million “dollars)…” (pp. 12-13).

· “…Overwhelming opposition from Congress and industry forced it to back down” when the FDA first tried to regulate ephedra in 1997 (pg. 13).

· The public assumes a greater degree of government regulation than exists – in a 2002 Harris Poll of 1010 adults, 59% of respondents believed that supplements must be approved by a government agency before they can be sold to the public, 68% thought the government requires warning labels on supplements with regard to potential dangers, and 55% thought that supplement manufacturers could not make safety claims without solid scientific support.

My usual favorite references from scientific research on dietary supplements available on store shelves in the USA:

A study of ginseng products found tremendous variability, with as little as 12% and as much as 328% of the active ingredient in the bottle, compared to the information on the label (Am J Clin Nutr. 2001. 73. 1101-1106)

A study of 59 Echinacea products from retail stores analyzed by thin layer chromotography showed that 6 contained no measurable Echinacea and only 9 of the 21 preparations labelled as standardized extracts actually contained in the sample the content listed on the label. Overall, the assay results were consistent with the labelled content in only 31 of the 59 preparations (Arch Intern Med. 2003. 163. 699-704).

When the FDA announced in 2003 a proposed rule to establish good manufacturing practices for supplements, the FDA cited data that 5 of 18 soy and/or red clover supplements contained only 50-80% of the quantity of isoflavones stated on the label, and 8 of 25 probiotic products contained less than 1% of the live bacteria claimed on the label.

In 1998 the California Department of Health reported in a letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine that 32% of Asian patent medicines sold in that state contained undeclared pharmaceuticals or heavy metals, including ephedrine ( a stimulant), chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine), methyltestosterone (an anabolic steroid), phenacetin (a pain killer), lead, mercury, and arsenic (N Engl J Med. 1998. 339. 847).

A study in which 500 Asian patent medicines were screened for the presence of heavy metals and 134 drugs found that 10% were contaminated (Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2000. 65. 112-119).

A study in which all unique Ayurvedic herbal medicine products were purchased from all stores within 20 miles of Boston City Hall found that 14 of 70 products (20%) contained heavy metals and that if taken as recommended by the manufacturer, each of these 14 products could result in heavy metal intakes above published regulatory standards (JAMA. 2004. 292. 2868-2873).

Adulteration of imported Chinese dietary supplements sold in Japan is responsible for 622 cases of illness, 148 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths (Report of the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare. September 20, 2002).

A 2002 Bastyr University study of 20 probiotic supplements found that 16 contained bacteria not listed on the label, 6 contained organisms that can make people sick, and 4 contained no live organisms.

PC-SPES was removed from the market in 2002 after it was determined that it was adulterated with the prescription blood thinner, warfarin.

Peace out.

[kenj]

The smart choice IMO for instant mental vitality would be stirring a sparkling tonic with things like American Ginseng, Ginger and Ginkgo Biloba, - if necessary sweetened with a little honey, - additionally have some green tea (or a little coffee) if you need to stay up those xtra hours without crashing.
I wouldn't touch the Smart drugs with a stick.