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Anti-vax movement's sophisticated recruitment techniques

anti-vax vaccines

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#1 Hip

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 06:21 PM


A report from the Center for Countering Digital Hate says anti-vaxxers are targeting ethnic minorities and parents to convince them not to get vaccinated against coronavirus,

 

The report says the anti-vax movement are adapting to social media far better than public health bodies, thus spreading their anti-vax misinformation widely.

 

The anti-vax movement runs private Facebook groups, where they train people to identify friends and family who are a bit "vaccine hesitant", in order to initiate those friends and family into the anti-vax movement. This is a sophisticated way of recruiting people who may not have sufficient scientific understanding or judgement to be able to sort out truth from falsity, and misinformation from valid info.

 
These sophisticated recruitment techniques remind me a bit of the methods used by dubious cult religions, which seek out vulnerable individuals and brainwash them into joining the cult.
 
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. incidentally is one of top spreaders of COVID-19 misinformation according to the Center for Countering Digital Hate. Source: here. Kennedy works with the Nation of Islam, as well as the Church of Scientology, in order to target vulnerable ethnic minorities and individuals without sufficient scientific education with his vaccine misinformation.
 
 
 
This is not to argue that vaccines cannot occasionally produce adverse effects.
 
However, to put it into perspective: if we look at cars and road transport, this causes around 2 million injuries and 40,000 deaths per year in the US. But you don't have an anti-car movement arguing against road transport. 
 
Interestingly, when actual vaccine safety issues have appeared in the coronavirus vaccines, such as the AstraZeneca vaccine being linked to blood clots appearing in around 1 in million cases, the regular scientific community have rapidly picked up on this, and addressed it, with some countries halting the use of this vaccine (unwisely, because it saves many more lives than it might kill).
 
 
 

Edited by Hip, 06 April 2021 - 06:24 PM.

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#2 pamojja

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 06:51 PM

However, to put it into perspective: if we look at cars and road transport, this causes around 2 million injuries and 40,000 deaths per year in the US. But you don't have an anti-car movement arguing against road transport.


There is: I promissed to myself more than 30 years ago never to own a private car again, and kept my promise. Am I now an anti-carrier?

About a little less than that a medical officer accidentally gave me a 10-times dose of life-polio vaccine. Never again I thought, and kept that promise too without arguing anyone. Am I now an anti-vaxxer?

I strongly believe a lifestyle with integrity is the best argument there is. Better than any arguing.

You better look into who is behind the Center for Countering Digital Hate, actually spreading so much hate and totalitarian censorship. Before succumbing to hathred yourself. Its very unhealthy.

..by their fruit you will recognize them.


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#3 Hip

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 07:15 PM

About a little less than that a medical officer accidentally gave me a 10-times dose of life-polio vaccine. Never again I thought, and kept that promise too without arguing anyone. 

 

A medical error like that probably occurs only once in 10 million cases, I would guess; therefore extremely unlikely that it would ever happen to you again. Yet because of this one incident, you now decline all vaccines? That's not really very logical, especially during this pandemic, where making the right vaccine decision may save your life.

 

Lack of logic, rationality and scientific understanding seems to pervade the entire anti-vax community. The anti-vaxxers operate on fear, emotion and often ignorance.

 

Did you experience any long-term adverse effects from having a higher than normal dose of the poliovirus vaccine? 

 

A higher dose may actually have been good for you: if it was the live version of the polio vaccine you had, this confers some protection against type 1 diabetes. So possibly a higher dose may have provided you increased protection against this disease.

 

It confers protection because the virus that researchers think causes T1D, namely coxsackievirus B4, is part of the same genus as poliovirus, and the live vaccine educates your T-cells to fight viruses in the same genus.

 

 

 

You better look into who is behind the Center for Countering Digital Hate, actually spreading so much hate and totalitarian censorship. Before succumbing to hathred yourself. Its very unhealthy.

 

I did, the CCDH was started by Imran Ahmed, who has links to the left-wing British Labour Party. More info about the influences of the CCDH here. So unfortunately the CCDH may have a left-wing bias; it would be better if it were neutral. However, in medical matters, political bias is not really a major issue.

 

 


Edited by Hip, 06 April 2021 - 08:02 PM.

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#4 pamojja

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 09:28 PM

Lack of logic, rationality and scientific understanding seems to pervade the entire anti-vax community. The anti-vaxxers operate on fear, emotion and often ignorance.


Abuse is all you have against perspectives you oppose.

..by their fruit you will recognize them.


Fact remains that you wasn't able to overcome your ME/CFS while experimenting with pharmaceutical, research chemicals or supplements for many year.

While after careful risk/benefits analysis - and thereafter refusing any pharmaceutical invasive intervention - was able to experience remission from multiple chronic chonditions (considered irreversible by conventional medicine) with lifestyle and comprehensive supplementation.

That's not really very logical, especially during this pandemic, where making the right vaccine decision may save your life.


Right on your crusade against really informed consent. So very logical to risk one's future health with experimental vaccines without any long-term safety data. Especially when there are so many time-proven safe therapeutics widely available already.
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#5 Hip

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 10:01 PM


While after careful risk/benefits analysis - and thereafter refusing any pharmaceutical invasive intervention - was able to experience remission from multiple chronic chonditions (considered irreversible by conventional medicine) with lifestyle and comprehensive supplementation.


Pity you were not able to fix your visceral hatred and fear of all things medical, scientific and pharmaceutical, and your need to express your anti-science sentiments everywhere you go online.

 

The Center for Countering Digital Hate will be onto you soon!


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#6 pamojja

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 10:17 PM

Pity you were not able to fix your visceral hatred and fear of all things medical, scientific and pharmaceutical,..

You know that isn't true. This I wrote some time ago on PhoenixRising forum you frequent too:

Its of course allways a very personal risks/benefits calculation. And therefore always turns out a different decission with different situations and experiences...

I'll protect my future health as much as possible by not getting vaccinated against, but already do everything possilbe to make my immunity stay on top.

Also I do fully respect any other decission due to other preconditions and situation, of course.


All you do is joining this smear-campaign without any commitment to truth.

Edited by pamojja, 06 April 2021 - 10:22 PM.

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#7 Hip

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Posted 06 April 2021 - 11:53 PM

Why do you insist of trolling and filling threads up with garbage, pamojja? 

 

You have taken this thread completely off topic.

 

This thread is about the dubious recruitment techniques the anti-vax movement use to brainwash people into joining them. This anti-vax movement will almost certainly lead to the death of tens of thousands of people, because it has convinced many, especially in ethnic communities, not to get vaccinated against coronavirus.

 

If the anti-vax movement actually provided sober and rational information regarding whether a person should take a vaccine or not, based on their age and underlying medical conditions, then they would be performing a useful service. Sober and rational info is always welcome. But the anti-vax movement just trade in irrational fear and emotion, and are more like a cult religion than a scientific organization — that's the problem with the anti-vax movement.

 

 

 

 

And to the twit who marked the first post in this thread as off-topic: see if you can work out yourself what's wrong with that.


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#8 Hip

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:34 PM

Another article on the CCDH report on anti-vax disinformation: 

 

The 'disinformation dozen': Two-thirds of anti-vaxx content circulating on Facebook and Twitter can be traced back to just 12 people including Robert F Kennedy Jr, report claims

 

It's terrible that this "disinformation dozen" are targeting vulnerable populations like Black and Asian communities.

 

There is already a suggestion that Black and Asian ethnic minorities may be more susceptible to COVID-19 because those with darker skin living in Northern climes with low sunlight levels are going to be short of vitamin D. 

 

And a more detailed analysis identified several other factors which may predispose Black and Asian communities to a higher risk of catching coronavirus, such as being more sociable, and and more likely to live in overcrowded households, and to work in higher-risk jobs compared with white populations.

 

 

And now in addition to all these disadvantages, you have these predatory anti-vax hucksters whose actions will end up killing off as many elderly Black and Asian people as they can.

 

At the end of any wars, the war criminals are rounded up and have to face a criminal trial for their actions. Likewise, at the end of the pandemic, we should round up these anti-vaxers, and prosecute them for manslaughter. 

 

 

 

Of course the Russians are involved in promoting the anti-vax movement and spreading vaccine disinformation to the gullible

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 07 April 2021 - 11:38 PM.

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#9 Hip

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 03:56 PM

Funny YouTube video by comedian Russell Howard:

 

If You're an Anti-Vaxxer, You're an Idiot — Comedian Russell Howard

 

 

 

 

Profile of typical anti-vaxxer:

 

In lower income brackets: People earning less than $25,000 a year are 50% more likely to distrust vaccines.

 

Midwestern: Citizens living in the Midwest region appear more likely to have “closeted” anti-vaccine sentiment.

 

Live in rural areas: Rural dwellers are 28% more likely to refuse vaccines.

 

Liberal: 60% of anti-vaxxers describe their political leaning as liberal.

 

Non-college educated: People with a high school diploma as their highest education level are 11% more likely to be against vaccines.
 
Don’t go to doctors: anti-vaxxers are 88% more likely not to have seen a doctor in the past year.
 
Don’t care about the environment: anti-vaxxers are 30% more likely to be “not concerned at all” about the environment and climate change.
 
Source: here.
 

 

 

 

 


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#10 kurt9

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 04:10 PM

"Anti-vaxxer" is a misnomer and can be considered libelous. 

 

No one I know who is skeptical of vaccines in general opposes their use for people who want them. They oppose coercing people who don't want them into having them. In other words, they oppose mandates, as should any rational, liberty minded individual. 

 

My body, my choice.

 

No liability, no mandates.

 

I consider vaccine politics to be an extension of the political struggle of our current time. 

 

Coercion has no place in a modern society. The only legitimate functions of government is to defend individual liberty and to protect people from fraud. 


Edited by kurt9, 11 April 2021 - 04:25 PM.

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#11 Hip

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 05:18 PM

"Anti-vaxxer" is a misnomer and can be considered libelous.

 
Let's be clear on the meaning of "anti-vaxxer".
 
An anti-vaxxer is NOT just someone who personally declines to take a vaccine because they are scared of needles, worried about the possible ill effects of vaccines, or who has a medical condition (such as previous allergic reactions to vaccines) that would make getting a vaccine more risky.
 
Rather an anti-vaxxer is someone who is philosophically or ideologically opposed to vaccination, who may be part of an organized activist anti-vaxxer movement which actively campaigns against vaccination, or someone who frequently posts negative views and fear-mongering misinformation about vaccinations.
 
A typical anti-vaxxer not only refuses vaccines themself, but tries to manipulate others not to take vaccines (often targeting gullible people using emotional messaging and fear-mongering).

 

 
 
 

They oppose coercing people who don't want them into having

 

Where possible, I think it is always good to protect individual liberties regarding things like vaccination. 

 

But if we want to maintain liberty, it is not OK for the anti-vax movement to target gullible people using emotional messaging and fear-mongering, to convince them not to get vaccinated. 

 
Emotional messaging and fear-mongering are almost as bad as coercing, because they in effect force people not to get vaccinated by a sort of "emotional hypnotism". If you use emotional messaging, this tends to override reason, especially in those with a lower IQ or less education.

 

Why do you think advertisers use emotional messaging? Because it overrides reason, and against your better judgement, may make you buy an advertised product you cannot afford and do not really need.
 
Emotional messaging is against liberty, because it uses strong emotions to override your rationality and better judgement. Liberty is usually based on rationality and reason; whereas it is fascism and dictatorships which use emotional messaging and fear-mongering to control the populace.

 

You cannot be free if someone is able to manipulate you to do things via fear-mongering or other mind control techniques.   

 

 

 

My body, my choice.

 

Unfortunately your vaccination decisions have wider impacts to the rest of society. Your failure to vaccinate can lead to the death or injury of others. So whether you like it or not, it's not just your body which is involved, it's also other people's bodies.

 

I know that we have become a more selfish society, with people increasingly thinking only about themselves. 

 

Ideally people would be educated to think more about others in their decisions. Then they might voluntarily choose vaccination, because they know it is not only good for them, but good for the rest of society.

 

 

 

The only legitimate functions of government is to defend individual liberty and to protect people from fraud.

 

Such style of government may be prevalent in America, but in other countries government has wider roles, such as ensuring that the poor are reasonably looked after. Things like socialized medicine, so that all your fellow countrymen and women can access medical care, even if they have come upon hard times and have little money.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#12 frederickson

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 06:17 PM

 

Pity you were not able to fix your visceral hatred and fear of all things medical, scientific and pharmaceutical, and your need to express your anti-science sentiments everywhere you go online.

 

The Center for Countering Digital Hate will be onto you soon!

 

 

I'm a PhD epidemiologist on academic medical faculty at a tier 1 academic medical research institution in the United States. I am funded on NIH grants and I have approximately 50 peer-reviewed publications while teaching medical students on a variety of topics.

 

With all of those qualifications in mind, I think the Center for Countering Digital Hate is an absolute FRAUD that pushes leftist propaganda. This includes, but is not limited to, blind vaccine propaganda.

 

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but I would cease with the ad hominems as don't think for a second that all scientists speak with a single voice when it comes to vaccines or anything else for that matter.


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#13 Hip

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 07:16 PM

I'm a PhD epidemiologist on academic medical faculty at a tier 1 academic medical research institution in the United States. I am funded on NIH grants and I have approximately 50 peer-reviewed publications while teaching medical students on a variety of topics.
 
With all of those qualifications in mind, I think the Center for Countering Digital Hate is an absolute FRAUD that pushes leftist propaganda. This includes, but is not limited to, blind vaccine propaganda.

 

I agree, I think the Center for Countering Digital Hate does have a left-wing agenda, and that agenda may be the main raison d'être for its existence, rather than any particular dislike of online hate. I think the CCDH will probably operate by labelling right-wing populist views such as nationalism or anti-multiculturalism as hate (which they are not), but not label any left-wing views as hate. 

 

Having a left-wing political bias however does not necessarily mean that your views on issues like vaccination are biased or fraudulent. Vaccination is not really linked to any political view, so no reason to suspect the CCDH has any bias in its study of the anti-vax movement.

 

 

 

 

don't think for a second that all scientists speak with a single voice when it comes to vaccines or anything else for that matter.


I understand the mechanisms of science, and know that there is always a spectrum of opinion on any scientific subject, and that the work of any one scientist always comes under skeptical scrutiny from many other scientists. That's what makes the scientific method a robust and self-correcting process for getting at scientific truth.

 

However, on any given issue, there is always a consensus view from the scientific community, a balance of opinion, and it is this view which normally informs governments and the rest of society. So science as a whole speaks with a single voice, even though individual scientists may have differing views.

 

In the case of coronavirus vaccination, the consensus view is go and get vaccinated, unless you have medical reasons not to, or are very old and frail (as there have been reports of very frail elderly people dying after the vaccination).

 

 

 

What makes the anti-vax movement invalid is that they do not partake in the scientific method. If they did partake, I would be the first to support them.

 

Anti-vaxers usually do not know enough about science to even begin a scientific debate. So they cannot be a part of the self-correcting rational process of science. Instead they do what they are good at: pumping out emotional messages, which lead to confusion rather than clarity. 

 

The anti-vax movement forced us to take mercury out of vaccines (even though you get more mercury in your bloodstream from eating a can of tuna than you get from a vaccine). Scientists said this small amount of mercury in vaccines is not dangerous, but the anti-vaxers were convinced it was the mercury which was causing autism. So now mercury is no longer used in most vaccines, but autism rates are still on the increase. So much for the scientific input of anti-vaxxers. This is an example of what happens when non-scientist anti-vaxxers try to do science.

 

The anti-vaxxer in chief, Dr Andrew Wakefield, whose fraudulent MMR vaccine study was retracted, is now reduced to giving anti-vax conferences on conspiracy theory cruises, along with UFO aficionados, and crop circle fanatics. Ref: here.

 

I am not suggesting vaccinates are always safe. I have ME/CFS, and I know a number of ME/CFS patients who were suddenly hit with ME/CFS within a few days of getting a vaccination (with the hepatitis B vaccine being the most implicated in triggering ME/CFS). But such adverse effects must always be balanced with the disease-preventing benefits of vaccines. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, road transport kills around 40,000 people each year and every year in the US. But that adverse effect has to be balanced with the vitally important role road transport plays in the economy and in our lives.

 


Edited by Hip, 11 April 2021 - 07:18 PM.

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#14 kurt9

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 08:35 PM

Unfortunately your vaccination decisions have wider impacts to the rest of society. Your failure to vaccinate can lead to the death or injury of others. So whether you like it or not, it's not just your body which is involved, it's also other people's bodies.

 

There is no scientific bases for this argument. Saying that by not getting vaccinated that I am a threat to others who get vaccinated is like saying that by not wearing a seatbelt while driving makes me a threat to other drivers who do wear a seatbelt. If a vaccine does not protect you from the unvaccinated, then that vaccine does not work and it is silly to take that vaccine.

 

The reason I refuse vaccination, in general (not just covid) is because of 1) Mercury poisoning and, 2) autoimmunity conditions that are largely due to vaccination. I have serious medical issues in my childhood that, in retrospect, were caused by Mercury poisoning, mostly from medical sources, including vaccines and allergy shots.

 

I believe the huge increase autoimmune conditions, particularly in young people, that we have seen over the past 20 years is also due to too many vaccines. I believe most of this is due to adjuvants. 

 

I will not subject myself to medical risk just for "other people". The idea that somehow other people benefit as a result of me incurring medical risk makes no sense whatsoever.


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#15 Mind

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 09:46 PM

I told a friend of mine to get the J&J vaccine, because it is a "regular" or "normal" vaccine, deserves the label, and is a technology with a longer-term known safety profile.

 

The Moderna and Pfizer technologies are an experimental "gene therapies" (which is their own description of the technology) with unknown long term side effects.

 

These are true statements, but would probably get me labelled as an anti-vaxxer in today's anti-science environment promoted by Google and mainstream news outlets.


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#16 kurt9

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:14 PM

The thing is that, unless you are obese or old, that it does not make sense to take the covid-19 vaccines. As per the CDC's own statistics (and we know how corrupt the CDC is) that your chances of dying from covid-19 are around 1 in 40,000. Your chances of dying from the covid-19 vaccines are 1 in 33,000. Based purely on persona cost/benefit analysis (which is the ONLY rational way to make ANY medical decision), it is irrational for anyone under the age of 60, who is not obese, to take a covid-19 vaccine.

 

This cost  benefit analysis does not take into account long term complications from the vaccines, such as autoimmune conditions. 

 

It is worth considering that vaccines are the only "product" manufactured in the U.S where the manufacturers enjoy complete immunity (pun intended) from product liability. Not even other medical compounds (e.g. Vioxx) enjoys such indemnity from liability. 

 

When I try DIY anti-aging stuff, like "Turnbuckle's"  mitochondrial fission/fusion protocol or his senolytic and stem cell replacement one, or any other thing I have done over the years as well as stuff I read in these forums, its based on a careful, THOROUGH personal cost/benefit analysis where I decide that the thing I'm trying is worth whatever risk I might incur. I have been a practicing life extensionist since the 1980's (starting with CoQ-10) and have generally had good results. I have barked up a couple of wrong trees over the years. But I have successfully "corrected" myself each and every time. My point is that my persona life extension efforts is a part of my personal "vision quest" in general, and that it is purely PERSONAL.  What irritates me to no end with the current medical establishment is that they expect me to CIRCUMVENT my personal risk/benefit analysis and simply do what they tell me just because they are the "experts" or that they are in charge. Of course I would be utterly stupid to do this.

 


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#17 kurt9

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:35 PM

https://market-ticke...www?post=241875

 

https://market-ticke...www?post=241893

 

https://market-ticke...www?post=241902

 

If you read thoroughly the above posted links, you will understand why I have absolutely zero trust or confidence in the medical establishment in the U.S., or anywhere else in the world. These people are my (and your) enemy. They are not to be trusted in any circumstance, whatsoever.

 

We are all life extensionists in here. I assume that's why all of you are here in these forums. As such, you are advocating for or even trying stuff that the existing medical establishments and existing social institutions have declared to be impossible. This means that, by definition, these institutions CANNOT help you in your personal objective (which is life extension) but can possibly imped your ability to do so. If an institution declares that what you are trying to do is impossible, why trust them on any other matter? Why have anything to do with them in the first place? Why you people don't see it this way is incomprehensible to me.

 

 


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#18 zorba990

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 11:06 PM

https://market-ticke...www?post=241875

https://market-ticke...www?post=241893

https://market-ticke...www?post=241902

If you read thoroughly the above posted links, you will understand why I have absolutely zero trust or confidence in the medical establishment in the U.S., or anywhere else in the world. These people are my (and your) enemy. They are not to be trusted in any circumstance, whatsoever.

We are all life extensionists in here. I assume that's why all of you are here in these forums. As such, you are advocating for or even trying stuff that the existing medical establishments and existing social institutions have declared to be impossible. This means that, by definition, these institutions CANNOT help you in your personal objective (which is life extension) but can possibly imped your ability to do so. If an institution declares that what you are trying to do is impossible, why trust them on any other matter? Why have anything to do with them in the first place? Why you people don't see it this way is incomprehensible to me.


Agreed, well said. Too much deception for any continued trust. The next one will be about "immune escape" which will be used to turn the vaccines into recurrent cashflow for med companies.
The science does not support the use of mRNA or even a traditional vaccine. I wish it did. The next 2 years will be interesting when the cold viruses (Corona family) come in contact with
this new form of human. I really hope to be very wrong about that looming disaster as I am unsure how to un-do it.
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#19 kurt9

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 12:31 AM

I come into the longecity fourms to read, learn, and share ideas on how best to pursue anti-aging life extension. I have already tried things that I have learned about in this forum that have benefitted my life and well-being. I am grateful for this longecity forum and the contributions of some it its members. I have tried these various techniques with the implicit understanding that the risk (and reward) is mine alone and that, therefor, the decision to try such is also purely my private decision to do so. I have never encountered any pushback from anyone in the longecity fourms with regards to this.

 

Until now, in this threat. It is simply outrageous that anyone in this forum or outside this forum, who does not know me personally, to "second guess" my private medical choices or to question my right to make them as purely a private decision. This is both unreasonable and complete outrageous conduct. This mentality has no place in a forum such as this. Its perfectly fine to discuss the political issues surrounding Covid-19 and its various treatments. It is entirely unacceptable to question the right of any forum member to make the purely private informed decision about what medical treatments to pursue.


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#20 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 01:31 AM

Unfortunately your vaccination decisions have wider impacts to the rest of society. Your failure to vaccinate can lead to the death or injury of others. So whether you like it or not, it's not just your body which is involved, it's also other people's bodies.[/size]
 
There is no scientific bases for this argument.

 
I don't think you fully understand infectious diseases and vaccination programs. 
 
Vaccines are not just to protect you, they also prevent you transmitting the infection to others. And likewise, vaccines stop others from transmitting the infection to you. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine, in other words.
 
Moreover, vaccination programs prevent outbreak of epidemics, but only if a sufficient percentage people take the vaccine.

 

This is stuff you should know before you engage in these sort of discussions.

 
 
 

The reason I refuse vaccination, in general (not just covid) is because of 1) Mercury poisoning and, 2) autoimmunity conditions that are largely due to vaccination. I have serious medical issues in my childhood that, in retrospect, were caused by Mercury poisoning, mostly from medical sources, including vaccines and allergy shots.

 
Maybe you have been reading junk alternative health websites like mercola.com or naturalnews.com if you think mercury is the villain.  
 
Dentists breathe in mercury vapor all day long as they drill out old fillings, but do not have a higher prevalence of autoimmune diseases. 

 

Mercury might perhaps be a risk factor for autoimmunity, but some websites portray mercury as evil incarnate, which is totally over the top.
 
Freedom of speech has allowed junk websites to proliferate online, which are misinforming billions of people. That's the trouble with freedom of speech: it has many good points, but ever since the advent of the Internet, it has led to an epidemic of misinformation that most people do not have the time, resources or education to handle. 
 
 

 

I believe the huge increase autoimmune conditions, particularly in young people, that we have seen over the past 20 years is also due to too many vaccines. I believe most of this is due to adjuvants.

 
A possible link between autoimmune diseases and vaccinations has been long speculated, but not much evidence available to demonstrate a link. It's not beyond the realms of possibility, though, that vaccines might sometimes trigger autoimmunity. Possibly it is the adjuvants (the immune stimulants) added to vaccines which do this.
 
Mercury by the way is NOT an adjuvant, even though some anti-vaxxers state that it is. Mercury was added to vaccines as it is a good antibacterial preservative, but it does not stimulate the immune response like an adjuvant.
 
You need an adjuvant to stimulate the immune response, otherwise a vaccine will not "take".
 
 

If you are looking for the cause of autoimmunity, the smart money is on a link between viral and bacterial infections and autoimmunity. 

 
For example, the autoimmune condition of multiple sclerosis (MS) is strongly linked to Epstein-Barr virus, and many researchers believe that once we have eradicated EBV, MS will disappear. Unfortunately making a vaccine which is effective against EBV is a very hard challenge; people have been trying for decades. So sadly EBV will be with us for some decades still. EBV also causes some cancers, and a few other diseases, like chronic fatigue syndrome, so it is a virus we definitely want eradicated.
 
The virus coxsackievirus B4 is linked to triggering the autoimmune condition of type 1 diabetes. I have chronic fatigue syndrome triggered by coxsackievirus B4, and when a family member caught this virus from me, sadly he was hit with T1D.
 

 
In your tirade against vaccines, what you do not realize is that most chronic diseases and cancers are linked to infectious pathogens. The factors which most reduce lifespan and healthspan are likely the infectious pathogens that we are constantly picking up throughout our lives.
 
Humanity thus has a chance of living disease-free if we manage to eradicate all these disease-causing pathogens from general circulation. But we need vaccines to eradicate them. Once they are eradicated, vaccines will no longer be necessary.
 
 
Your own health issues as a child may well have been due to catching a nasty pathogen which remained in your body causing long-term issues. 
 
Pathogens are very insidious, because when we catch them, we might just think we caught a bad cold or fever. But that bad cold may instead have been a nasty disease-causing virus or bacterium entering your body, and then remaining in your body for life. Most viruses and bacteria once caught cannot be eradicated from the body, so they become permanent residents in your tissues. Often the disease a pathogen causes may not appear for years or even decades, long after you have forgotten about that fever episode you had where you caught the pathogen.

 

 

 

The thing is that, unless you are obese or old, that it does not make sense to take the covid-19 vaccines.


It makes sense to take the vaccine if you have ethics, and care about others. It may not make as much sense if you are one of the "me, me, me" generation who only think about themselves.

 

But even if you are "me, me, me" oriented, encouraging everyone to get vaccinated will help return society to normal, which is in everyone's interests.

 

 

 

 

We are all life extensionists in here. I assume that's why all of you are here in these forums. As such, you are advocating for or even trying stuff that the existing medical establishments and existing social institutions have declared to be impossible.

 

I don't think that is the case. Many people are on this forum because they have physical health problems or mental health problems, looking for interesting experimental ways of treating their illnesses. That is why I am here. 

 

As for longevity, as I have said elsewhere on this forum, longevity enthusiasts are all barking up the wrong tree. In future I suspect we will realize that most ill health comes from infectious pathogens, and to a lesser degree, from certain environmental toxins. 

 

Yet most longevity enthusiasts are oblivious to the large area of research linking chronic disease and cancer to infectious pathogens.

 

If you believe in having the longest healthspan that you can, you may be advised to reduce the number of amorous relations you have, since every time you kiss someone new, there is a good chance you will acquire a new pathogen which will then live long term in your body tissues.

 

 

 

Until now, in this threat. It is simply outrageous that anyone in this forum or outside this forum, who does not know me personally, to "second guess" my private medical choices or to question my right to make them as purely a private decision. This is both unreasonable and complete outrageous conduct. This mentality has no place in a forum such as this. Its perfectly fine to discuss the political issues surrounding Covid-19 and its various treatments. It is entirely unacceptable to question the right of any forum member to make the purely private informed decision about what medical treatments to pursue.


I think it is far more outrageous that the anti-vaxxers encourage the killing of others. In the context of the coronavirus pandemic, taking an anti-vax stance is tantamount to murdering people.

 

And taking an anti-lockdown stance is just as bad. 

 

 

 

Nobody has mandated the coronavirus vaccine; you have the freedom to take it or not.

 

Yet the anti-vaxxers are still going around fear-mongering, putting people off taking the vaccine, which results in thousands dying of COVID-19 unnecessarily.

 

And actually, if the anti-vaxxers were to succeed in frightening people away from taking the coronavirus vaccine, then this vaccine likely would be mandated, which would then defeat the object of the anti-vaxxers in the first place. This is how short-sighted the anti-vax movement is: their actions may actually lead to a vaccine mandate to replace the present voluntary system.

 

 


Edited by Hip, 12 April 2021 - 02:24 AM.

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#21 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 02:02 AM

https://market-ticke...www?post=241875

 

https://market-ticke...www?post=241893

 

https://market-ticke...www?post=241902

 

If you read thoroughly the above posted links, you will understand why I have absolutely zero trust or confidence in the medical establishment in the U.S., or anywhere else in the world.  

 

I have looked at those links, and they are total garbage and conspiracy theory junk.


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#22 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 04:06 AM

The Moderna and Pfizer technologies are an experimental "gene therapies" (which is their own description of the technology) with unknown long term side effects.

 

I don't know too much about it, but there are two types of gene vaccines: DNA vaccines, and messenger RNA vaccines.

 

In both cases, these vaccines work by encoding the viral protein as a set of genetic instructions, which are injected into a muscle. The muscle cells then take those instructions, and from them build the viral protein. Once the immune system sees the viral protein, it makes antibodies against it, and hey presto, you now are immunized against that virus.

 

However, both the Moderna and Pfizer gene vaccines use the far safer messenger RNA (mRNA) system, in which the genetic instructions are written as mRNA, rather than DNA. It's far safer, because mRNA cannot be incorporated into the person's own DNA, and mRNA is naturally degraded and destroyed by the cell after some days.

 

Whereas in theory at least, the DNA from a DNA vaccine could be incorporated into the person's own DNA. 


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#23 kurt9

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 05:00 AM

There is a risk/benefit tradeoff with all medical treatment. That is why I undergo medical treatment exclusive for my own health and vitality and ONLY if it passes my personal risk/benefit analysis. That's it. I do not consider medical treatment for any other purpose.  In any case, I had the "Rona twice. Once in March and the second time in September. That I am typing this today should tell you that this disease is no big deal for the vast majority of us and that the politicians have made a mountain out of a mole hole, but I guess that's what politicians do. 

 

We are already mostly back to normal in the U.S. Most states, including Texas and Florida, are completely back to normal. Where I live we are 95% back to normal. The rest will follow by summer. This covid-19 business is over and done.  I don't know about the UK (I take it you're in the UK). But there will never be a vaccine mandate in the U.S. Both the constitution and other federal law prevents such a thing, despite the rhetoric from the MSM. It also violates the concept of bodily autonomy, which as a life extensionist, is something i take very seriously. My wife and I spent Christmas holiday in Florida (Tampa St. Pete). It was quite nice. My wife thinks this whole covid-19 business (and the political response) to be even more BS than I do. Of course I actually came down with the damned thing twice and she was never touched by it.

 

BTW, you're wrong about the Mercury thing. How I know this is because chelation with ALA (Alpha Lipoic Acid) fixed my problem. This would not be the case if it were an infectious agent. 

 

Your theory is that much of medical conditions as well as aging itself is due to infectious agents. This is possible. After all, much of aging is immunosenescence. We know that CMV infection contributes to immunosenescence. However, the best way to combat all infectious disease, not just covid-19, would be to do things like regenerating the thymus gland. Vaccines don't do that. Doing this would be a far better approach to treating covid-19 (and all other disease) than these bogus vaccines. Thymus regeneration is a reality today. Ask yourself why there has never been any discussion, let alone effort to role out thymus regeneration as the preferred method to treat covid-19. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com...on-lawsuit.html

 

This is MSM, not what you consider to be conspiracy theory junk. If vaccines are so safe, why do the manufacturers have immunity to product liability? This alone should make you wonder. 

 

Do you still consider the covid-19 vaccines to be a rational gamble?

 

The thing about conspiracy theories is that they make predictions that are testable. If the prediction comes true, then the theory was right. If not, it was BS. Up until last year, like you, I considered all conspiracy theories to be psychotic BS. Today I'm not so sure. If you had told me 2 years ago that a f**king politician would prevent me from going to the gym each and every day, I would have called you nuts. 

 

Karl Denninger makes predictions that may or may not come true. I do hope he is wrong. I really do. However, if his predictions prove correct, then I will know that he was right all along. Reality really is that empirical, you know.

 

 

 

 

 


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#24 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 02:00 PM

My wife thinks this whole covid-19 business (and the political response) to be even more BS than I do.

 
The highly sensationalized way news is presented in the US can make you suspicious of authenticity. This may be in part why you distrust the news.

 

Because of such crap news channels, you may be unaware that one of the main reasons for all the lockdowns etc is to prevent hospital overload. COVID does not make people drop dead on the spot, but puts them through a horrible and frightening 10 days or so where they cannot get their breath, and are fighting for survival. It is extremely frightening when you find you cannot breathe. These people need hospital treatment from trained staff, but these are limited resources. 

 

If the pandemic were just left to rip, the exponential explosion of COVID cases would overload hospitals, and then people suffering these frightening symptoms would be left to face them all on their own, which should never happen in a civilized society.

 

So prevention of hospital overload is one of the primary reasons for lockdowns, but the crap news channels you watch do not seem to have explained that to you. Thus your personal views of COVID being bullshit have arisen as a result being badly informed by news channels which appear to want to entertain rather than truly inform.  

 

 

 

Why are news channels so bad? Well because many news channels in the US are businesses who profit from advertising, they must always sensationalize news and make it into a form of entertainment, in order to hold their audience. 

 
And it is hard to find a politically neutral channel in the US, the channels are often affiliated with a political view, so not only is the news sensationalized, but it is also politically biased.  
 
A good news channel should be politically neutral, and present the news in a sober manner.
 
I believe the PBS channel in the US is more neutral and sober, because it is more non-commercial. 

 

In the UK, the BBC is the equivalent of PBS, but in recent years the BBC has become a platform for promoting liberal values, and thus has become quite politically biased, and thus suspect. Although the present right-wing UK government is now making efforts to make the BBC more neutral.
  

 

 

The end result of poor news channels is a misinformed public who start believing in conspiracy theories and other trash shared on Facebook. Facebook has become the go-to news source for the millennial generation. It is really the end of civilization when someone like Zuckerberg is in charge of informing the nations. 

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 12 April 2021 - 02:55 PM.

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#25 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 02:49 PM

BTW, you're wrong about the Mercury thing. How I know this is because chelation with ALA (Alpha Lipoic Acid) fixed my problem. This would not be the case if it were an infectious agent.


Did you have hair analysis tests which indicated a high level of mercury? If so, and if chelation improved your health, I would agree that mercury may have been an issue. Probably not the only issue, but a contributory factor.

Did you perform the Andy Cutler mercury chelation protocol, where you take the chelators every 3 or 4 hours, in accordance with the chelator half-life in the blood? Cutler says if you do not take the chelators every 3 or 4 hours, they can dump the mercury they carry into other tissues, and actually make your mercury problem worse. There are many people who have become worse from doing mercury chelation wrong, and not taking the chelators every 3 or 4hours (including during the night) is the main mistake people make.

 

 

Thymus regeneration is a reality today. Ask yourself why there has never been any discussion, let alone effort to role out thymus regeneration as the preferred method to treat covid-19


Thymus regeneration is not a practical reality yet, although there is research in this area. I have looked into thymic regeneration, as a possible way of treating my ME/CFS, but no easy way to achieve it, unfortunately.

 

In any case, when thymus regeneration becomes available, it potentially may cause adverse effects that we cannot predict in advance. As you know, at puberty, the thymus gland is rapidly and deliberately shrunk by the body. There may be a good reason why the body shrinks the thymus at puberty, and reinstating thymus function after puberty may thus cause issues.

But I hope it does not cause issues, because it would be great if in future we have greater protection from infections and autoimmunity through thymic regeneration.

But remember that a fully functioning thymus is not a magic organ that totally protect you from infection. In third world countries, there is still a lot of infant death due to infection, even though infants have fully functioning thymuses.



 

Your theory is that much of medical conditions as well as aging itself is due to infectious agents. This is possible. After all, much of aging is immunosenescence. We know that CMV infection contributes to immunosenescence.


Immunosenescence is a part of it, and yes cytomegalovirus can accelerate the age-related weakening of immunity.

But the real health problem with chronic pathogens comes from the fact that they take up permanent residence in your cells. These pathogens have their own genes, and in your cells they express these genes and start synthesizing their own proteins for their own survival purposes.

Very often pathogens in your cells will make proteins which are purposely designed to "hack" into and destroy your immune system. This is known as immune evasion: where a pathogen will throw a spanner in the workings of your immunity. This is how pathogens survive, by hacking your immune system and making it dysfunctional, so that the pathogen is not destroyed by the immune response.

Not surprising then that chronic pathogens in your body may trigger autoimmunity and autoimmune disease, give rise to cancers, or make you more susceptible to cancers, or more susceptible to other infections, etc.

 

New research also indicates that serious mental health conditions may be due to dysfunctional immunity in the brain, leading to constant brain inflammation. This inflammation then disturbs normal functioning of the brain.

 

And when you observe dysfunctional immunity and chronic inflammation anywhere in the body, you can guess that there is likely a chronic pathogen infection behind it.

 

People who have caught coronavirus may find in future that this virus is still in their body, and will trigger some new chronic diseases, or trigger some existing ones. So that is the risk of not getting vaccinated. Of course if you have already caught coronavirus, it may be too late for vaccine protection. Although some people with long COVID are finding their illness improves after vaccination.
 

 

 

 

If vaccines are so safe, why do the manufacturers have immunity to product liability? This alone should make you wonder.


Normally you can sue a vaccine manufacturer if you experience an adverse effect. People sue them all the time.

I know one case of a person developing chronic fatigue syndrome after a hepatitis B vaccination, who was awarded awarded $1.1 million plus lifetime medical expenses.

Since the coronavirus vaccines have been licensed under emergency regulations, these may be subject to different laws. 

A serious pandemic is analogous to wartime situation. In war, you get drafted into the armed forces whether you like it or not; and if you are killed or injured during battle, you don't have much legal comeback. Life is not always a bed of roses, and as has been pointed out many times: freedom is not free; sometimes there is a price to pay. 

 

Previous generations like the Vietnam vets, or the WW2 generation, paid a very high personal price to maintain freedom. The price being asked of this generation is small: get a jab, keep socially distanced, and wear a mask. Compared to the horrors the Vietnam vets faced, what is asked of this generation is nothing. Yet this generation is up in arms about such relatively small privations. 

 

This pandemic is not unique, and there will be worse ones to come. So we can consider this as training. 

 

We had AIDS appear in the 1980s, when I was at university, and all of a sudden everyone had to use condoms, if they wanted to reduce the risk of AIDS. Fortunately condoms are an easy solution, and there was no major disruption to life as a result of HIV coming on the scene. 
 


Edited by Hip, 12 April 2021 - 03:30 PM.

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#26 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 04:18 PM

It may be worth spelling out the risks of not getting vaccinated more clearly:

 

Even if you are young and thus unlikely to die from coronavirus, it's possible that after your acute coronavirus infection is over, the virus remains in your body for life, as a chronic low-level infection. It could live in your brain, your heart, your lungs, or in other organs or tissues.

 

The fact that some people are getting chronic fatigue syndrome (long COVID) after an acute infection with coronavirus suggests this virus can take up permanent residence in the body, because some researchers think chronic fatigue syndrome is caused by an ongoing viral infection.

 

So if you catch coronavirus and survive, this virus may nevertheless stay in your body for life, and may precipitate some health issues or some chronic diseases later when you are older. At this point we know so little about this new coronavirus that we cannot predict what it's long term effects in the body might be.

 

 

 

Is there a precedent for pandemics triggering long term chronic diseases? Certainly: in the 1918 Spanish H1N1 influenza pandemic, which killed around 50 million worldwide, some survivors developed a neurological disease called encephalitis lethargica, characterized by great difficulty in making voluntary movements of the body and limbs. This illness transformed victims into living statues that can barely move. There were about a million cases of this disease appearing. Some cases appeared decades after the influenza pandemic, in the 1930s. So clearly this H1N1 influenza virus that people caught in 1918 was like a ticking time bomb living in people's brains — a dormant virus that could explode into nasty disease decades later.

 

In the case of the polio epidemics (now eradicated because of vaccines), plenty of people caught polio and survived without problem. But the virus remained living in their brain, and decades later, they would develop a chronic fatigue condition called post-polio syndrome, which is a terrible disease, as it leaves you totally exhausted all the time.

 

So who's to say that those who caught the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus and survived and currently appear OK will not later develop some serious health problems, as a result of this virus lingering in your brain, heart, lungs or other organs? 

 

 

 

Of course the anti-vaxxers never mention this. But the fact is catching the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus may potentially lead to health consequences in the future, maybe decades in the future, like a post-polio syndrome-type condition which only appears when you get older.

 

People who have caught the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus may potentially have a ticking time bomb in their body

 

So while there are very slight risks from getting vaccinated, there are also unknown risks from not getting vaccinated, if you catch coronavirus.

 

Personally for me, the fewer viruses I can have living in my organs, the better.

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 12 April 2021 - 04:58 PM.

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#27 kurt9

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 07:55 PM

Yes, I am using Andy Cutler's protocol and, yes indeed, I take it every 3 hours including at night for 3 days per week. I did his protocol from late '06 to spring of '08, then again from fall of '09 to summer of '11.

 

I did it a third time during the entire year of '19 and I am finishing up a six month round now. The reason I repeated it the last couple times was due to all of tuna sushi and donburi that I have eaten during the teens (I no longer eat tuna).

 

BTW, Andy was a very close of mine, and he passed away in summer of '17.


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#28 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 08:42 PM

The reason I repeated it the last couple times was due to all of tuna sushi and donburi that I have eaten during the teens (I no longer eat tuna).

 

I read that restaurant sushi has high levels of methylmercury, up to 200 mcg per portion, whereas a can of tuna will contain around 30 mcg. 

 

Methylmercury of course bioaccumulates in the brain, and is the most neurotoxic form of mercury. It can even cross the placenta and accumulate in the brain of the fetus. That's why methylmercury containing-fish are not advised in pregnancy.

 

 

By comparison, the amount of mercury that used to be used in vaccines was about 10 to 25 mcg, and this was ethylmercury, which does not bioaccumulate much. 

 

This is why it was not logical for anti-vaxxers to go crazy about the relatively small amount of ethylmercury in vaccines, while remaining silent on the much more significant sources of methylmercury in fish.  

 

People who like tuna or sushi might eat a lot of it, as you did, which then will expose you to so much more mercury than you will ever get from vaccines. 


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#29 Hip

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 10:28 PM

A good article on mRNA vaccine risks and safety is here:

 

Five things you need to know about: mRNA vaccine safety 

 

 

This is a good article for those who have been Zuckerberged — meaning having your brain filled up with random misinformation, crazy conspiracy theories, and the hearsay from people who know little about science, as a result of using social media as a primary news source. 

 

Also helpful for those who have been Vladimired — meaning having the wool pulled over your eyes by the disinformation that Vladimir Putin injects into Western social media, in order to confuse and misinform people, or get people to distrust their government. It is very much in Putin's interests to get Western populations to distrust their government, which is why his cyber attack teams will post articles on US or European social media casting doubts over vaccines and government scientists. Sadly many Westerners are quite gullible to this sort of mind manipulation.

 

 

 

Here are some excerpts from the article:

 

Human trials of cancer vaccines using the same mRNA technology have been taking place since at least 2011. ‘If there was a real problem with the technology, we’d have seen it before now for sure,’ said Prof. Goldman.

 

—————————————

 

A concern that some have had about the mRNA vaccines is that they could change people’s DNA. But that idea is ‘completely false’ and has ‘no scientific basis’, says Prof. Goldman.

 
‘The (vaccine) mRNA will not enter the nucleus of the cells, where our DNA is.’
 
Once the injected mRNA enters a human cell, it degrades quickly and only stays in the body for a couple of days. This is why people need two injections to develop the best immune response, he says.
 

Edited by Hip, 12 April 2021 - 10:42 PM.

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#30 johnross47

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Posted Today, 04:15 PM

 

 

 


 
I believe the PBS channel in the US is more neutral and sober, because it is more non-commercial. 

 

In the UK, the BBC is the equivalent of PBS, but in recent years the BBC has become a platform for promoting liberal values, and thus has become quite politically biased, and thus suspect. Although the present right-wing UK government is now making efforts to make the BBC more neutral.
  

 

 

The end result of poor news channels is a misinformed public who start believing in conspiracy theories and other trash shared on Facebook. Facebook has become the go-to news source for the millennial generation. It is really the end of civilization when someone like Zuckerberg is in charge of informing the nations. 

 

How on earth do you arrive at such a preposterous view of the BBC. There has only ever been one head of the BBC who wasn't known to be a Tory. Most of the staff, when they leave for other jobs, turn out to be Tories or worse. The nonsense view that the BBC is "liberal left", is put out by the overwhelmingly Tory press in the UK to allow the Tory government to push it even further to the right. I find it hard to believe you are actually in the UK rather than somewhere politically absurd like Texas.
 


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