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Shuttle crew faces a 1-in-100 chance of dying


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#1 Live Forever

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:24 PM


Here is the link to the CNN story.

Evidently, every member of the shuttle crew faces a 1-in-100 chance of dying. At least, those are the official odds that NASA gives, and it seems there is some debate about whether that figure is accurate, but nonetheless, is that an acceptable risk for us to be sending humans into space with, if true? I think it is, as long as the people know all of the risks beforehand, but I might be in the minority. I know that the odds would have to be improved dramatically for me to want to go into space, but I have no qualms with sending people who know what they are getting into.

#2 Shepard

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:32 PM

I'd take those odds.

#3 stephen

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 11:27 PM

The first step in a good risk analysis is deciding what value we obtain from taking these risks.

What value do we obtain from the shuttle program?

Nationalistic pride? Some dubious science, maybe?

I, personally, don't think the risk is worth it for the sake nationalism, but I have no problem with others feeling differently.

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#4 rjws

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:23 AM

In the Shuttle hell no give me Apollo anytime.

The shuttle is a piece of garbage that has held up real space exploration . I hate the shuttle it is and will always be remembered as a step back down the volutionary ladder of space travel.

#5 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:51 AM

Actually, according to past experience, the odds are 1 in 57 of dying, given that there has been 114 launches and two 100% fatal accidents.

So NASA (aka No Americans in Space, Anymore) is only 75% off of reality. Of course, it is due to similar past misunderestimations of risk that resulted in the previous accidents....apparently nothing has changed at NASA. I shall also note that Marshall Spaceflight Center has rated this launch as "unacceptable risk", but NASA HQ has overridden them. Same old shit.

Shall we form a pool on what point in the mission there will be an accident, and whether it will cause loss of mission, loss of vehicle, or loss of crew? Perhaps a sweepstakes to benefit imminst.....

#6 bgwowk

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:31 AM

Evidently, every member of the shuttle crew faces a 1-in-100 chance of dying. At least, those are the official odds that NASA gives, and it seems there is some debate about whether that figure is accurate, but nonetheless, is that an acceptable risk for us to be sending humans into space with, if true?

Shouldn't that be the decision of the people that are going? If the financial cost of failure is acceptable, then the human cost should be the decision of the people that want to go, like volunteers for high risk military activities. Where would ocean exploration have gone if everytime a galleon didn't return to port there was a period of national soul searching? Or the early days of aviation? I hope in this century there will be extensive privatization of manned space flight so that people will be freer to take risks as they themselves choose to rather than a whole nation making such decisions for them.

The put things in perspective, 1 in 30 45-year-olds won't make it to age 55 due to conventional causes of death. A 45-year-old astronaut might make it into space once in his/her career. 1 in 100 odds don't look so bad in that context. Spectacular accidents create acute anxiety about mortality, but the reality is that everybody lives in danger (and psychological denial of danger) from much more mundane causes. In that vein, I cannot help but note that Alaskan crab fisherman have a fatality rate that dwarfs that of astronauts, yet there is no national debate about whether King Crab should be on restaurant menus!

#7 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:45 AM

Evidently, every member of the shuttle crew faces a 1-in-100 chance of dying. At least, those are the official odds that NASA gives, and it seems there is some debate about whether that figure is accurate, but nonetheless, is that an acceptable risk for us to be sending humans into space with, if true?

Shouldn't that be the decision of the people that are going? If the financial cost of failure is acceptable, then the human cost should be the decision of the people that want to go, like volunteers for high risk military activities. Where would ocean exploration have gone if everytime a galleon didn't return to port there was a period of national soul searching? Or the early days of aviation? I hope in this century there will be extensive privatization of manned space flight so that people will be freer to take risks as they themselves choose to rather than a whole nation making such decisions for them.

The put things in perspective, 1 in 30 45-year-olds won't make it to age 55 due to conventional causes of death. A 45-year-old astronaut might make it into space once in his/her career. 1 in 100 odds don't look so bad in that context. Spectacular accidents create acute anxiety about mortality, but the reality is that everybody lives in danger (and psychological denial of danger) from much more mundane causes. In that vein, I cannot help but note that Alaskan crab fisherman have a fatality rate that dwarfs that of astronauts, yet there is no national debate about whether King Crab should be on restaurant menus!


To play devil's advocate for a second, the crab fisherman have market pressure that pushes them to do what they do. In other words, there is a market for King Crabs, and there is a profit incentive due to market pressure for them to go out and get the crabs. In the case of astronauts, there is no market pressure pushing them into space. They are funded by the government, and are (as some would argue) risking their lives outside of market pressure. (that would be the classic Libertarian argument anyway) Now that does not apply to the privately manned space missions, which would work due to market demand for space travel.

All that being said, I personally highly agree with space exploration, and its funding by the government. If anything I think NASA is highly underfunded as is, and any type of exploration and scientific achievements that can come from space exploration, I am all for! That is not to say that there shouldn't be careful planning to keep the astronauts safe, but as long as the individuals know the risks, and are willing to accept them, then I say, go for it! Your comparison to ocean exploration and aviation are exactly correct, Dr. Wowk.(imo) Humans have always pushed the boundries of what is possible (some would argue we were "built" (evolved) that way) and I think it is human nature to continue doing what was previously not done, and going places that have no one has ever gone before. In one sense, it is the very essense of what makes us human.

#8 Infernity

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 07:15 AM

Something tells me I'd still go there if offered, if the chance of dying is 1%...


-Infernity

#9 caston

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 01:38 PM

Survive long enough and space travel might become a much more common privledge.

#10 stephen

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:53 PM

This reminds me of how I view both scuba diving and sky diving.

I was expecting sky diving to be awesome! life-changing! thrilling! And it was (for a short time). The best part was actually hanging onto the wing of the airplane and letting go. Now THAT's scary. The falling part was decently thrilling, and then your canopy opens and you spend 20 minutes gliding to the ground.

Unsuprisingly, it's rather empty up there. Not much to look at. You can look at the ground of course, but it looks SO FAKE. That was what amazed me. Your sense of perspective is so skewed that it seems like you're hovering rather close to a miniature-size set of the earth beneath you. I'm scared of heights, but there's nothing to give you perspective! You don't *FEEL* like you're thousands of feet up.

I fear that space would be the same way. You would lose sense of perspective and the "feeling" wouldn't be all that incredible.

[ Scuba diving on the other hand... is amazing! You get the feeling of zero-g and yet have stuff to look at, and the perspective gained from floating along walls that are thousands of feet high or through massive arches or around massive columns. ]

#11 bgwowk

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:50 PM

Humans have always pushed the boundries of what is possible (some would argue we were "built" (evolved) that way) and I think it is human nature to continue doing what was previously not done, and going places that have no one has ever gone before. In one sense, it is the very essense of what makes us human.


Right on!

#12 mikelorrey

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:37 PM

Actually, the odds are even worse. Griffin stated that the odds for TPS impact damage are 1 in 100 and are "about the same as the risk for propulsion failure, life support failure, etc" such that, all the odds taken together, the risk to STS-121 is actually about 1 in 20, or 5% chance of total loss of vehicle and/or crew.

This means that, for the 17 remaining scheduled launches, the odds of one of these failing with LOC are about 85%. That means, with an average crew size of six, that approximately 5 lives will be lost in the completion of the ISS. Added to the 7 lost with Columbia making 13, compare that with the lives lost in the construction of other major projects: the Golden Gate Bridge, Hoover and Grand Coulie Dams, etc. but also compare by the lives per man-hour of work put in on each project.

#13 Live Forever

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:45 PM

I think they are taking more precautions and have better safety now since the one blew up on re-entry. I am betting the odds are better now.

#14 mikelorrey

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 10:13 PM

Most aircraft accidents happen to aircraft that are either brand new, or nearing their end of life. The shuttles are operating more than a decade longer than planned, each was planned to have only a 20 year life. Flying a shuttle is like taking a ride in a model T taxi driven by a 90 year old alzheimers patient with a heart condition and cataracts.

You could say that your odds are better because the 90 year old driver is "experienced" and the Model T is a "proven design", but the statistics wouldn't support your optimism.

#15 Live Forever

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:39 AM

Most aircraft accidents happen to aircraft that are either brand new, or nearing their end of life. The shuttles are operating more than a decade longer than planned, each was planned to have only a 20 year life. Flying a shuttle is like taking a ride in a model T taxi driven by a 90 year old alzheimers patient with a heart condition and cataracts.

You could say that your odds are better because the 90 year old driver is "experienced" and the Model T is a "proven design", but the statistics wouldn't support your optimism.

That wasn't the argument I was making. I totally agree that they need something better. I just think that the precautions they have taken since the last shuttle disaster has made it safer. I have seen several reports on how they have installed cameras to check for hairline cracks while in space, to make sure reentry will be safer, and how they have increased the amount of checks they do, and are more careful about repairs between flights and such.

Using your example, it would be like saying the Model T is repaired more carefully between each of its drives, as well as adding sensors that tell you when something is going wrong with the Model T. Also, the 90 year old driver is replaced by a semi-healthier 75 year old driver. Still, not that safe, but better than it has been in the past, is all I was saying.




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