10 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

I had never really considered this, but while doing some googling about for stuff on cryonics, I ran across a few things on plastination (and freeze drying) as cheap alternatives to cryonics for people that can not afford a cryonic suspension.

Here is a link to a thread entitled. "Plastination: a badly neglected cryonics alternative."

..and here is the link to the Transtopia (yes, I know, I can see your eyes rolling, but this article is fairly interesting) on how the process might be of use. It seems to contain quite a bit of convincing info on it.

I would like to hear from some of the "experts" (Dr. Wowk, Ben Best, others) or just anyone else, that has thoughts on how feasible either freeze drying or chemical preservation (plastination) would be, both in terms of current knowledge about how well they are stored, as well as future resuscitation practicality.



Some of the main advantages might be:
1) Safe and Easier storage (plus easier to handle and move compared to cryonically frozen subjects)
2) Cheaper Storage (room temperature)
3) Perhaps fewer legal trouble with a plastinated subject than with cryonics
4) Lower cost (the main advantage I see), and the procedure is potentially available for free (through body donation)
5) Morally/ethically better than doing nothing, and available to a larger segment of the population

Some of the main disadvantages might be:
1) At room temperature there might be some (slight?) decay that takes place (could plastination be combined with mild cooling?)
2) Could be information loss in the brain (of course, that is a risk for cryonics as well)


As a side note, there are several of these "Bodies" exhibits going around. I know that in Atlanta (where I live) there is this exhibit called Bodies.....The Exhibition, (there are other similar ones too, like BodyWorlds, and others that travel around) which by all accounts is an incredible exhibit. (I haven't been yet, but plan on going sometime in the next month hopefully) I believe that these subjects are preserved by plastination. Wouldn't it be interesting if these subjects were able to be revived at some future date. I wonder how they would feel about waking up in the future while not expecting to have been able to do that.


One of the plastinated individuals on exhibit


Plastination procedure


Freeze drying

[Live Forever]

For more info on the actual process of plastination, see here.

The "flow chart" of the basic process is as follows:


Doing a search through the archives, it appears as if there was a short discussion on plastination beginning with this post back in 2003.


Also, as far as freeze drying is concerned, the advantages and disadvantages might be different, as well as the potential for being brought back. For more on it as opposed to plastination, see this part of the page linked to earlier.

[Mind]

I think the "decay" factor is the main problem. At room temerature chemical processes are still ongoing. At liquid nitrogen temps, there is hardly any change over many decades.

[Live Forever]

I think the "decay" factor is the main problem. At room temerature chemical processes are still ongoing. At liquid nitrogen temps, there is hardly any change over many decades.

Apparently the plastination process prevents a lot of the decay. I saw it mentioned somewhere that plastination could be combined with cold (but not liquid nitrogen) temperatures, for instance a freezer or permafrost burial, or something else, to slow down the rate of decay. It would really not be a first option for anyone, I think, and would not be as good as cryonics, but could be done much more cheaply than cryonics, and therefore available to a lot larger segment of the population. Some of the figures presented make it seem as affordable as a standard burial (perhaps a bit more), or even free if you donate your body to one of the places that does it for free. I think everyone would rather have a cryonic suspension, but in lieu of enough money, this could be an alternative procedure, I would think. Perhaps not, but at least worthy of discussion, I think.

[bgwowk]

This is a totally wrong direction to go in, and I think it's damaging for cryonics to be associated with this kind of stuff. I am not aware of any scientific evidence that freeze drying or plastination preserves sufficient brain information to be considered a credible form of life preservation. Futhermore, I think the cost savings are overestimated given the small fraction that storage costs are of the total cost of neuropreservation. For anyone who wants to cut costs in cryonics, the place to rationally start is by concentrating on preservation of the brain.

One of the greatest advantages of cryopreservation, aside from being the least damaging form of long-term preservation currently known, is that it provides a pathway with biological feedback leading toward eventual reversible suspended animation. Freezing drying, plastination, and chemical fixation are all technological dead ends.

[benbest]

I somewhat touched on this topic in The Permafrost Papers

http://www.cryocdn.o...erma.html#chemo

In the section on Fixation I said

********************************************************************************
Embedding the brain in paraffin is a common technique. Since paraffin and water do not mix, the brain is first dehydrated with ethanol or methanol (which also do not mix readily with paraffin). Then the ethanol or methanol is washed-out with a clearing agent such as xylene, which does mix readily with paraffin. The brain is then perfused with warm, soft paraffin at above room temperature -- which will solidify at room temperature. The brain could then be encased in plastic for even better preservation. But the loss of lipid by alcohol washout and further damage to fine structure by high temperature treatment are of serious concern. For PCI, mineral oil could be substituted for paraffin, since it would be paraffin-like at PCI temperatures. Washout with a clearing solution could be avoided by using dioxane or butanol (which mix readily with paraffin) rather than ethanol or methanol for dehydration. The amount of loss of lipid and fine structure by this technique would need to be investigated.
********************************************************************************

The Dutch cryonicist Dalibor den Otter has been the most persistent advocate of plastination,
and he has posted on CryoNet as recently as April, 2006

http://www.cryonet.o...g.... den otter

Not long after I wrote the piece I investigated plastination enough to decide the
the high-temperature toxic plastic "perfusion" would probably destroy much of the
fine structure of the brain. I challenged Dalibor on this point and he said he would
consult the plastination company and he never got back to me on the matter.
I don't think anyone has ever even attempted to demonstrate preservation of
fine structure of a plastinated brain in an electron microscope. I think it
would be worse than freezing damage.

And worse than chemical preservation followed by permafrost burial
-- which is what I would call "plan C", if you think cryonics organizations
cannot possibly survive.

-- Ben Best

[Live Forever]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I suppose this isn't the type of tech that we should be focusing on, but it just looked like an interesting alternative for people who could not afford cryonics.

Thanks for the info! [thumb]

[drus]

I've always wondered about anhydrobiosis as a form of suspended animation, coupled maybe with a form of refrigeration or cold storage?

[rob26hello]

Is freeze drying and platination inferior to a "straight freeze" with liquid nitrogin? Just wondering.

[bgwowk]

Yes, I would say so.

If someone did a really high quality fixation protocol using agents that fixed both lipids and proteins, and did it quickly with minimal ischemic time in the unfixed state, I might lean toward such a treatment instead of freezing without cryoprotectant. But freeze drying and plastination as currently practiced for gross anatomical preservation is probably going to be pretty bad for preservation of fine structure and chemistry. Besides, if you have the kind of access and resources required for prompt high quality fixation, then you probably also have the access and resources for cryoprotection and cryogenic storage, which is best of all.