51 replies to this topic

[Matt]

I got extremely anxious, almost mildly depressed over the last 6 months because I've been broke. For months I was worrying how I would pay for things, I couldn't go out with friends because I just had no money left. I had to keep borrowing, then worrying how Im going to pay it back, these things just got me more and more anxious and caused a series of minor health problems (palpitations and other stress associated symptoms). I had to live on £90 every two weeks, which £70 of that went to my parents because they can't afford to just keep me for nothing. Then that left me with so little, out of that I had to try and pay for supplements, bus fairs, a bit of food, internet connection, karate and so on. In the end I had to stop almost everything! I had no control over what I could do, I was told to go to all sorts of places/courses which was horrible, I felt I had no control over anything.

I couldn't pay for healthy food (I wouldn't eat junk food that the rest of my family eats), I couldnt pay for my supplements, I couldnt go out anywhere (most things cost money these days), I couldnt enjoy my hobbies, I couldn't travel anywhere with friends... I would come home from college and just be stuck in the house, every day!

Since ive got a job and getting far more money, I'm much better off, I feel quite good, I've been out with my friends again, went back to karate, bought some cool video games, started working the garden to grow things, bought a telescope, and going to go for a driving lessons. So would more money make me even happier still... of course! I have plenty of things that I still want, but can't have.

MONEY DOES BUY HAPPINESS!

Edited by Matt, 10 September 2006 - 03:13 PM.

[Athanasios]

Money has diminishing returns, it is that simple.

[maestro949]

Maybe we should do a study between these two populations to see if there's any "happiness" correlation:

The 1.5 billion people live on less than $1 per day.
The 1.5 billion people live on less than $2 per day.

[Athanasios]

$1 seems it would be pretty rough, whereas $2 seems like it is manageable

Returns havent diminshed much at that point.

My brother was offered a job for 82k and another for 55k, and he doesnt know which to take (not a huge difference between happiness on the job either). Yet the difference is more than I get paid. To me, there is a huge difference. To him, the difference is much more minor.

[william7]

Money has too much potential to be misused and abused - especially to gain power and control over others in a sadistic way. Notice this expanded definition of "sadism" in Readings In Abnormal Psychology: Contemporary Perspectives (1976-77 ed.). On page 100 it says:

According to my view, sadism is a much more general phenomenon than described by Freud. At the nucleus of sadism, I see the passion to control another being, that is, to completely control, to have in my power, to do with him what I will, to be, so to speak, his God, to be almighty. This situation is realized in the form of injuring someone else, to humble him physically, so that he cannot defend himself. With sadism, it must be that the other person is helpless and weak. Sadism never has a strong person as an object. One could clearly see that in the case of the Nazis; one can see that generally in sadistic psychology, that which is attractive is power over the weak. The strong one is admired, the weak one stimulates.

Naturally, there are also many other forms of complete control that are not necessarily those of physical pain or of manifest humilation. You will find many sadistic manifestations in relationships between people that are based on the situation where one possesses complete control over the other. You see that in the case of parents, teachers, nurses, prison guards and, to a large degree, in the case of people who are in an elevated position or social situation, the kind in which one has power over others. And he who has the power uses it in order to control others. The rough forms of sadism, in that one is beaten, injured bodily or reviled, those are naturally the clearest expressions and manifestations of sadism. But they are perhaps not even the most important at all. The most important are to be found in the relationships between people: they are the attempts of one person to gain omnipotence over others.

Under this definition of sadism, I see money being misused, in a sadistic way, too frequently in our society to gain power and control over others. This is counterproductive and interferes too often in the development of positive and caring relationships among people. True happiness cannot be achieved under this state of affairs. This is why I have such a negative feeling about money and hope it is abolished soon.

[Athanasios]

The controlled or oppressed are only so because they let themselves be controlled or oppressed. The problem is not with a rationing device such as money, but with both the controller and the controlled. If either knew how to act with honor, there would be no problem.

[william7]

There's alot of truth to what you say cnorwood. But I can't see any new morality taking hold of society that would put an end to sadism and oppression without eliminating the tools used in the process which are too frequently money and wealth. Otherwise, there would always be a temptation or a pressure exerted to go back to old ways. You're right though that both the oppressor and the oppressed both have to come to terms on how to live in peace and harmony in order for it to work. It can't just be a one sided thing.

This video with the Beatles song Taxman provides an entertaining example of the sadistic use of money. Can the taxman and the oppressively taxed be truly happy with the sadistic relationship they're in?

[william7]

While money may supply some incentive for progress, thomas, it leaves too much destruction and unhappiness in its wake. Man needs to find a better way of progressing.

I agree with you that we're a race inclined towards greed, but I believe we can learn to overcome this negative aspect of our character. The pursuit of money and wealth is a demeaning aspect of our lives that desperately needs to be abolished so we can truly progress to a higher cultural level. Even Jesus warned us to: “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” Luke 12:15.

Socialism was attempted in history but never accomplished. Those countries that professed to be socialist or communist still had a ruling class and still practiced wage slavery based on a monetary system. That's why they were so easily conquered by capitalism. Most of your socialist organizations today admit this and decry any attempts to paint those countries as having practiced true socialism as Karl Marx envisioned it.

There’s nothing to say we can’t come up with a new, more advanced, model of socialism in the future that’ll work. How many attempts did it take for man to learn how to fly? Leonardo da Vinci had flying machines on the drawing boards way back in the 1500s. Today we have jets and spaceships. It just took awhile to gain the knowledge and the ability to put it into practice. This is not to say air travel and spaceflight has been perfected yet. It certainly hasn't.

I say put the world in the hands of the socialist parties with a new and better understanding of the Bible to back it up and to replace the false religions of today that are making a mess of the world right along with capitalism and misguided science. What other hope do we have? Our ability to live out longer, healthier, and happier lifespans successfully depends on it.

[Athanasios]

There's alot of truth to what you say cnorwood. But I can't see any new morality taking hold of society that would put an end to sadism and oppression without eliminating the tools used in the process which are too frequently money and wealth. Otherwise, there would always be a temptation or a pressure exerted to go back to old ways. You're right though that both the oppressor and the oppressed both have to come to terms on how to live in peace and harmony in order for it to work. It can't just be a one sided thing.

This video with the Beatles song Taxman provides an entertaining example of the sadistic use of money. Can the taxman and the oppressively taxed be truly happy with the sadistic relationship they're in?

tool - anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose

We create tools, because we are intelligent and goal oriented. No matter how many tools you eliminate the mind can come up with more ways to oppress. It is not the tool that is at fault but the mind. You can not change the human condition, read mind, by changing the outward system. True change can only come within, corny but true. Without this change, the best ways that has been yet shown to alleviate these types of problems are (A.) checks and balances within the system (in this case, in the system controlling the rationing device, money) (B.) a way to make the goal considered "bad/wrong" less appealing than a "good" alternative. Of course, these are not true solutions but continuous cover-ups of the real problem. The problem of education.

[JohnDoe1234]

I say put the world in the hands of the socialist parties with a new and better understanding of the Bible to back it up and to replace the false religions of today that are making a mess of the world right along with capitalism and misguided science. What other hope do we have? Our ability to live out longer, healthier, and happier lifespans successfully depends on it.

Misguided science? how so? Science is the one constant we can all depend on, it is the absolute truth. Capitalism is not making a mess of the world, every nation that has adopted capitalism has experienced economic growth, longer life-spans, and a generally happier population.

Look at every other kind of government/society in history... can you name one that was even 1/1000th as productive as current capitalism? Exactly, you can't.

Through capitalism's umbrella we are just now reaching a point where immortality is becoming a reality. Anything that relies on consulting the Bible to help with governing its people is not fit to govern. It opens up an interpretation loop-hole that can lead to government officials using the Bible's word against the people or at least in a self-fulfilling manner.

Church and State should always be separated; religion always seems to instigate something.

[william7]

(cnorwood19)

tool - anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose

We create tools, because we are intelligent and goal oriented. No matter how many tools you eliminate the mind can come up with more ways to oppress. It is not the tool that is at fault but the mind. You can not change the human condition, read mind, by changing the outward system. True change can only come within, corny but true. Without this change, the best ways that has been yet shown to alleviate these types of problems are (A.) checks and balances within the system (in this case, in the system controlling the rationing device, money) (B.) a way to make the goal considered "bad/wrong" less appealing than a "good" alternative. Of course, these are not true solutions but continuous cover-ups of the real problem. The problem of education.

There's much truth to what you say. In fact, it's going to take the right type and right level of education under the right circumstances to accomplish the job.

In the new socialist civilization, we'll live in peace and harmony with one another. Crime and violence will be a thing of the past. What need would we have to keep firearms and other implements of destruction?

So it will be with money and private property. There'll be no use for it. Man's mind will be culturally and cognitively conditioned in such a way as to despise or shun money and wealth so there'll never be any temptation to return to that way of life (or death) ever again. Anti-money will be a big part of the education process.

Money games (Monopoly) and toy guns will be the last things we'll want to see our children playing with. We'll have to teach them new ways to have fun consistent with the new socialist society.

[Lazarus Long]

Excuse the minor quips but this conversation deserves a bit of levity I think.

Money can't buy you happiness .. but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.
-- Spike Milligan

I have never hated a man enough to give his diamonds back.
-- Zsa Zsa Gabor

I am opposed to millionaires... but it would be dangerous to offer me the position.
-- Mark Twain

[Athanasios]

There's much truth to what you say. In fact, it's going to take the right type and right level of education under the right circumstances to accomplish the job.

In the new socialist civilization, we'll live in peace and harmony with one another. Crime and violence will be a thing of the past. What need would we have to keep firearms and other implements of destruction?

So it will be with money and private property. There'll be no use for it. Man's mind will be culturally and cognitively conditioned in such a way as to despise or shun money and wealth so there'll never be any temptation to return to that way of life (or death) ever again. Anti-money will be a big part of the education process.

Money games (Monopoly) and toy guns will be the last things we'll want to see our children playing with. We'll have to teach them new ways to have fun consistent with the new socialist society.

How will this revolution come about? We already went over that it will not come about by changing the outward system, hoping it will change people. When the people change, the society changes, as it is just an amplification of what goes on in our head.

When/how will this education come about? Are we to hope that when technology eliminates the need to strive for necessities that people will turn to understanding their relationship with each other?

[william7]

(josephjah)

Misguided science? how so? Science is the one constant we can all depend on, it is the absolute truth. Capitalism is not making a mess of the world, every nation that has adopted capitalism has experienced economic growth, longer life-spans, and a generally happier population.

Look at every other kind of government/society in history... can you name one that was even 1/1000th as productive as current capitalism? Exactly, you can't.

Through capitalism's umbrella we are just now reaching a point where immortality is becoming a reality. Anything that relies on consulting the Bible to help with governing its people is not fit to govern. It opens up an interpretation loop-hole that can lead to government officials using the Bible's word against the people or at least in a self-fulfilling manner.

Church and State should always be separated; religion always seems to instigate something.

Did you see my post on scientific industrialism at http://www.imminst.o...19? Read that then ask me again how science is misguided. Calling science "absolute truth" sounds like worship to me. You have too much faith in science. It's only an idea and a tool. Nothing more.

This is not to say that science and technology are doomed forever. With the right socialist economic basis and a new religious ideal to guide them, they could become a real blessing. Then you would see real progress without all the negative side effects.

Sure there's been a measure of progress with capitalism. But its been progress with too high a cost. Then again, progress is really in the eye of the beholder like beauty. It's a relative thing that depends on whether or not you're on the receiving end of its blessings. People who suffer the burdens of the so-called progress might not see your idea of progress as such a great blessing. The cost may've been too high for them.

Where capitalism may've provided some people with better educations and health care necessary to increase lifespans to the current level, it's now turning on itself and feeding off the people in such a way as to reverse those gains. Notice the thread here about the obesity crisis. The junk food capitalists are preying on the people big time and the medical industry is feeding off the carrion in a parasitical relationship. This is just another example of money and property accumulation being given greater importance over health and life itself.

True, keeping the State separated from the world's false religions has provided a degree of protection from them. However, to really get free of them is going to take a new society that interprets and applies the Bible in a novel way so as to satisfy the spiritual needs of the masses and replace the the old, false religions with there hostile to life on earth doctrines.

For instance, Osama bin Laden is definitely a false teacher with his death over life theology. It's going to take a new understanding of the Bible that teaches that God is not the God of the dead but of the living to overcome and replace bin Laden's deathism. Basically, people from all walks of life are going to have to become seriously interested in immortality as a major part of a new religion to make it work.

[william7]

(cnorwood19)

How will this revolution come about?

May be a series of very devastating global warming related disasters combined with a series of very devastating, worse than 9/11, terrorist attacks, that provoke widespread social unrest and economic depression, could bring the socialist parties to power in the United States. Or may be the Avain Flu mutates to a worse than the Spanish Flu of 1918 pandemic, following right on the heals of a great earthquake knocking out all of California, could do it.

After major catastrophes like described above, I believe the people would see the wisdom of not returning to a capitalist economy. The United States has never experienced a socialist revolution in its history and would be ripe for giving it a try.

Are we to hope that when technology eliminates the need to strive for necessities that people will turn to understanding their relationship with each other?

That definitely would be nice. But if that didn't happen, I'm sure the socialist workers could organize in such a way that the necessaries of life could be produced with the minimum amount of labor, leaving a substantial amount of leisure time to focus on improving the quality and quantity of life. I bet the 40 hour work week could be reduced to less than 20 hours.

[william7]

Here's an interesting poem I found by D.H. Lawrence entitled "Money-Madness." It goes as follows:

Money is our madness, our vast collective madness.

And of course, if the multitude is mad
the individual carries his own grain of insanity around with him.

I doubt if any man living hands out a pound note without a pang;
and a real tremor, if he hands out a ten-pound note.
We quail, money makes us quail.
It has got us down, we grovel before it in strange terror.
And no wonder, for money has a fearful cruel power among men.

But it is not money we are so terrified of,
it is the collective money-madness of mankind.
For mankind says with one voice: How much is he worth?
Has he no money? Then let him eat dirt, and go cold --

And if I have no money, they will give me a little bread,
so I do not die,
but they will make me eat dirt with it.
I shall have to eat dirt, I shall have to eat dirt
if I have no money

It is that that I am afraid of.
And that fear can become a delirium.
It is fear of my money-mad fellow-men.

We must have some money
to save us from eating dirt.

And this is all wrong.

Bread should be free,
shelter should be free,
fire should be free
to all and anybody, all and anybody, all over the world.

We must regain our sanity about money
before we start killing one another about it.
It's one thing or the other.

The poem was published in his book called Pansies. I found it in the back of an old World Socialist journal.

[Centurion]

Money would make me happy. It would allow me to screw around studying without worrying about loans until I eventually found the thing I wanted to do most, be that a specific job or just more study.

[william7]

(thomas edgar)

Hahaha. No. I don't think so. If 9/11 couldn't then I doubt anything will. If anything, I think it does just the opposite. Socialism is boring and depressing. Just like tax. The revolution, when it comes, will be of a different nature. It shall be the end of nation-states. We will all come under one governing body. It shall be one of a capitalist ideology. It shall be one that is moving towards homogeneity, the end of religion, of your bible. A world with beliefs based on fact not fiction. I think that religion will die out with the coming of a significant increase in lifespans. Although, one thing that does disturb me are immortalists, who are christian and muslim, but then thats just me...Perhaps getting abit off topic...

Money is not the problem, it is the solution. The problem is not the problem. It is the solution. You see money is the reward for hard workers. And so, it is the solution to the problem and not the problem itself.

Anyway, I like capitalism. I want to live in a world where I have the chance to live happily with all my material goods. Money buys things, things buy happiness. Socialism is too equal. Equal is boring. Unequal is fun. No....more than that. Unequal is feels morally right to me. It is the same feeling that I get with atheism. A feeling of emptiness but simulatneous completeness.

The problem is you haven't been paying attention to current politics. Our government - particularly the Bush administration - is being severely criticized for failing to protect us from the 9/11 attacks and for not doing enough to ensure we're not attacked again. Many are saying that President Bush's invasion of Iraq has worsened terrorism in the world and this increases the likelihood we'll be attacked again in the future. In other words, Bush inflamed the situation and wasted alot of lives and money in the process.

If terrorists were able to successfully pull off a series of worse than 9/11 attacks in the United States, the people could very well rise up in protest as a result of the failed policies of the government. The ordinary people are already dissatisfied with the corruption in politics and big business as it is. A few more political scandals revealed and some economic downturn with resulting hardship would add fuel to the fire. Combine that with some major catastrophe like another global warming related Kitrina or two, or the bird flu, and you would have it.

You're going to find that capitalism - with its money and property over life at all costs mentality - will never be compatible with immortality research or its practice. The conservatives that are now opposed to it fully realize it's a serious threat to the status quo and their idea of "the good life." It's definitely going to take the right type of character in the right type of social setting in order to practice longevity, eventually achieve immortality, and stay the course over time. The observations made of centenarians with slender than usual BMI's and happier than usual characters that are impervious to the debilitating effects of stress point in this direction. The sadistic mentality produced by capitalism will never make significant gains in longevity. It's not consistent with long life.

The inequality of capitalism breeds competition which in turn breeds conflict, corruption and violence. This is why capitalism and atheism cannot solve the radical Islam problem. Scientific atheism and capitalism will never be able to force the Islamics to give up their religion. This is a worse than Vietnam type situation we're facing. As I said previously, it's going to take a new religious and economic ideal practicing immortality, and making it work, to overcome radical Islam's deathist theology. It will be much easier to win hearts and minds to a new religious ideal such as this than it will be to force change through violence. "Violence only breeds more violence" and will not solve the heart of the problem.

You must be studying political science or something? It sounds like you might eventually make a pretty good spin Doctor some day. You should, however, rethink the matter and give up the dark side and join the light side. We're going to win in the end.

[Athanasios]

The problems have nothing to do with capitalism, science, or atheism. You seem to have an idea that these things have something inherently wrong with them. It is important to see what is inherent to a system and what is applied to it by an outside source.

Economic competition is not the problem, it will always exist, even in socialism, as long as there is scarcity. This is true by definition! Psychological competition is what breeds conflict, corruption, and violence. This psychological competition is applied to the economic system of capitalism. It will also be applied to any other system you can dream up, unless psychological competition itself is solved.

Is it possible that you convince yourself that all our problems are wrapped within a definable package and then label it something so that it is easier to disassociate yourself with it? That way you can convince yourself that you are not a part of the problem because you associate with the "polar opposite" of the problem? This is a common psychological reaction. It is important for all of us to ask ourselves this question if we are serious about solving the problem, because not only does it hide the source of the problem but creates a false solution.

[william7]

(cnorwood19)

The problems have nothing to do with capitalism, science, or atheism. You seem to have an idea that these things have something inherently wrong with them. It is important to see what is inherent to a system and what is applied to it by an outside source.

The problem is with capitalism, atheism, and the false religions of the world the way I see it. Taking science out of the hands of capitalism, atheism, and false religion could work if it is put in the hands of a truly socialist society practicing a new religion completely different than the false religions that need to be replaced.

Economic competition is not the problem, it will always exist, even in socialism, as long as there is scarcity. This is true by definition! Psychological competition is what breeds conflict, corruption, and violence. This psychological competition is applied to the economic system of capitalism. It will also be applied to any other system you can dream up, unless psychological competition itself is solved.

Economic competition is the problem and would not exist in a truly socialist system. Psychological cooperation would fully replace psychological competition under true socialism. Psychological competition is an inherent part of the inequalities created by capitalism. That will never change as long as capitalism exists. Any serious socialist will tell you this.

Capitalism creates scarcity by overproduction, the production of things that are unnecessary, and unequal distribution. Under socialism, production would be of the necessaries of life only and distributed to those who have need. Natural resources would be conserved in the process. It's under capitalism that you have your problems with materialism, overconsumption, and overuse of natural resources.

Is it possible that you convince yourself that all our problems are wrapped within a definable package and then label it something so that it is easier to disassociate yourself with it? That way you can convince yourself that you are not a part of the problem because you associate with the "polar opposite" of the problem? This is a common psychological reaction. It is important for all of us to ask ourselves this question if we are serious about solving the problem, because not only does it hide the source of the problem but creates a false solution.

True, I'm not currently a part of the system as a capitalist or a wage slave. I don't belong to any religious or political organizations. The only way I participate in society is through the internet exchanging information and ideas as we're doing. For this reason, I believe I can be more objective. I believe not being a part of the problem is important for finding the solution to it. You could call this a "psychological reaction" as you say.

[Athanasios]

Psychological cooperation would fully replace psychological competition under true socialism. Psychological competition is an inherent part of the inequalities created by capitalism.

Psychological competition is not created by capitalism, but applied to it by independent factors. The two main drives for it that I have seen is (A) competition for mates and (B) trying to force "what is" into "how one wants things to be" which is created by the comparison of past pleasures or pains to the current moment. People will use money to try and achieve A and B, but even if money did not exist, they would use any other tool they could find to achieve A and B.

Capitalism creates scarcity by overproduction, the production of things that are unnecessary, and unequal distribution.

This is what I meant by scarcity:

Scarcity

The basic economic problem which arises from people having unlimited wants while there are and always will be limited resources. Because of scarcity, various economic decisions must be made to allocate resources efficiently.

I do not see how socialism can solve this problem.

[william7]

Psychological competition is not created by capitalism, but applied to it by independent factors. The two main drives for it that I have seen is (A) competition for mates and (B) trying to force "what is" into "how one wants things to be" which is created by the comparison of past pleasures or pains to the current moment. People will use money to try and achieve A and B, but even if money did not exist, they would use any other tool they could find to achieve A and B.



This is what I meant by scarcity:

Scarcity

The basic economic problem which arises from people having unlimited wants while there are and always will be limited resources. Because of scarcity, various economic decisions must be made to allocate resources efficiently.

I do not see how socialism can solve this problem.

That's where I believe a new religion with a better understanding of the Bible would make socialism work. There's much material in the Bible that can be used to teach against psychological competition, greed, and unnecessary wants.

It's my firm belief that the failure to establish and maintain a truly socialist society in the Soviet Union, China, etc. was due to their failure or inability to replace the false religions they were closing down with a religion that was new and better and fully entwined with and supportive of socialism. I would hate to see this error repeated again in the United States when the socialist parties come to power - which I believe they will in the near future.

If you ever get a chance, you should checkout Crises In European History, By Gustav Bang, put out by The Socialist Labor Party (SLP). Even though I didn't agree with the author's atheism, he did have an excellent understanding of the early Christian Church being communistic and being gradually transformed into the medieval, exploiting catholic church. You can find the booklet at http://www.slp.org/p...s/crises_eh.pdf. The SLP has alot of other excellent literature worth reading too. Of all the socialist literature I've read over the years, I found theirs to be the best.