75 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

I could have posted this in either the Religion or Cryonics forum, but I am posting it here as a nice diversion to the "whether God exists" arguments that seem to be taking over every thread here.

So, a few questions,

For everyone, are religion and cryonics compatible? ...and, more specifically, is Christianity and cryonics compatible?

For religious people (Christian, Jewish, whatever), and if you believe in a "soul", then what do you think happens to the "soul" during cryonic suspension? (interested in william's take on this)

For non-religious people (atheist, agnostic, other), do you even care? ...do you see reaching out to religious people as a waste of time?


I think it is probably wise (for those that care about cryonics) to make it appealing to people that are religious.

Some resources that may help:
Alcor: FAQ on Spiritual Questions
Alcor: Religion and Cryonics
Cryonics Institute: FAQ, religion and cryonics
Cryonics Institute: 3rd question down about "souls"
Cryonics FAQ 3: Philosophy/Religion
Cryonics-Europe: Religion and Cryonics

[william]

Live Forever, I believe those Cryonics laboratories, where they store the preserved people, will not survive the intensification of natural disasters, disease epidemics, warfare, social upheaval, and economic depression that is prophesied to occur in the end times. Notice the booklet Are We Living In The Time Of The End? at http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/ET/, and read carefully the chapter at http://www.gnmagazin...vetprophecy.htm. As I've said before, I have more faith in living communally according to Biblical standards and practicing strict vegetarianism, calorie restriction, periodic fasting, along with whatever anti-aging therapies those bio-engineers develop, for increased life spans. That's just the way I see it. I can take you to more recent literature that explains the natural disasters, etc., are in fact increasing and the stage is set for Christ's return and intervention in human affairs before things get too out of hand.

[bgwowk]

Live Forever, I believe those Cryonics laboratories, where they store the preserved people, will not survive the intensification of natural disasters, disease epidemics, warfare, social upheaval, and economic depression that is prophesied to occur in the end times.

Then you must also believe that hospitals, nursing homes, or other chronic care facilities will not survive end times either. This means only one thing: Life extension is only for the healthy; sick people requiring chronic attention of others should be abandoned. What a strange philosophy for a Christian to have!

By the way, Live Forever, your list didn't include this item of specific Christian interest:

http://www.alcor.org...ndcryonics.html

[william]

[/QUOTE=bgwowk]Then you must also believe that hospitals, nursing homes, or other chronic care facilities will not survive end times either. This means only one thing: Life extension is only for the healthy; sick people requiring chronic attention of others should be abandoned. What a strange philosophy for a Christian to have![/quote]

You jumped the gun on me here bgwowk. Did I walk into an attempted ambush or what? I think Live Forever must of tried to set me up.

I didn't mention anything about abandoning the sick or people in hospitals, etc., as being a part of my religious beliefs. The Bible instructs us to take care of the sick. I just believe that when conditions get real bad people will abandon things like cryonics facilities when there are no funds or staff able to continue them. The "great tribulation" prophesied to occur is going to be a very terrible time.

I saw a video in one of these forums where I thought they said the only cryonics facility was in Arizona. Is this true?

[william]

bgwowk, I was reading your link to the Alcor site and noticed where they said:

"By 1990 Alcor had grown to 300 members. In response to concerns that the California facility was too small and vulnerable to earthquake risk, the organization purchased a building in Scottsdale, Arizona in 1993 and moved its patients to it in 1994."

It looks as if they had the same concerns as I have. My question is will the move fully protect them from end time events?

[RighteousReason]

william you are a plague to these forums...

[bgwowk]

William wrote:

I didn't mention anything about abandoning the sick or people in hospitals, etc., as being a part of my religious beliefs. The Bible instructs us to take care of the sick. I just believe that when conditions get real bad people will abandon things like cryonics facilities when there are no funds or staff able to continue them.

If institutions that care for the sick cannot be maintained during End Times, does that absolve us of our responsibility to establish and maintain such institutions in the interim? I submit that it is immoral to care for ourselves or others any differently based on specific assumptions about when the End Time will be.

[william]

William wrote:

I didn't mention anything about abandoning the sick or people in hospitals, etc., as being a part of my religious beliefs. The Bible instructs us to take care of the sick. I just believe that when conditions get real bad people will abandon things like cryonics facilities when there are no funds or staff able to continue them.

If institutions that care for the sick cannot be maintained during End Times, does that absolve us of our responsibility to establish and maintain such institutions in the interim? I submit that it is immoral to care for ourselves or others any differently based on specific assumptions about when the End Time will be.

No, I'm not calling for the end of hospitals or cryonics facilities. But I do believe the end times are fast approaching and I have a hunch cryonics facilities won't survive the cut.

I also suspect that the advances in medicine necessary to resuscitate those cryonically preserved bodies is not just around the corner. Notice the article at http://www.nationalr...shire080202.asp where the conservative author says:

"Science has stopped. None of the really major scientific advances that you have been reading about since 1970 as "just over the horizon" is ever going to happen. Cheap fusion power; the colonization of Mars; artificial intelligence; supersonic air travel you can afford; contact with extraterrestrial civilizations; the conquest of cancer, tooth decay, or the common cold; fuhgeddaboutit."

I have no college degrees or expertise in the "hard" sciences, but I think you could put cryonics in there too.

Also notice the part of the above article where he says:

"The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are saddled up and ready to ride. Just to remind you, their names are: War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. No. 4 will presumably always be with us, but at least we have got Nos. 1, 2, and 3 pretty much fenced off in sub-Saharan Africa, right? The chance that you or me, or your kids or mine, will die in a genuine mass-mobilization-type, carriers-going-down-with-all-hands-type, flattened-cities-type war, or from starvation, or in some horrid medieval-type, communal-grave-type, 1918-flu-type plague, is actuarially insignificant, right? Well, believe it if you like, but your belief has no foundation more substantial than wishful thinking. History suggests that it is most likely false."

[william]

william you are a plague to these forums...

Well well well. If it ain't the old conn and set up artist himself back from the dead. You don't plan on being cryonically preserved if you die of cancer from smoking do you? Let me warn you. You better do everything you can to preserve your health today if you want to be healthy tomorrow and live forever.

[Live Forever]

Live Forever, I believe those Cryonics laboratories, where they store the preserved people, will not survive the intensification of natural disasters, disease epidemics, warfare, social upheaval, and economic depression that is prophesied to occur in the end times.

Then you must also believe that hospitals, nursing homes, or other chronic care facilities will not survive end times either. This means only one thing: Life extension is only for the healthy; sick people requiring chronic attention of others should be abandoned. What a strange philosophy for a Christian to have!

By the way, Live Forever, your list didn't include this item of specific Christian interest:

http://www.alcor.org...ndcryonics.html

Woops, thanks for providing that, Dr. Wowk, I was trying to find as many as possible, but must have missed that one. I am actually trying to convince some members of my family of the merits of cryonics at the moment, and will show them this link, as it seems to be the most direct at answering some of the questions/concerns that they have raised. (almost all of them being Christians)

No, I'm not calling for the end of hospitals or cryonics facilities. But I do believe the end times are fast approaching and I have a hunch cryonics facilities won't survive the cut.

William, why should people not do as much as possible to make it to a time when people's lives are dramatically extended? People have a right to do what they can to keep themselves alive, do they not? Did you see the references in the link Dr. Wowk provided about the Bible making it clear that Christians should want to stay on Earth for as long as possible.

At what point do we stop trying our best to extend people's lives? ...and who are you to make that decision about an artificial cutoff point for others?

I also suspect that the advances in medicine necessary to resuscitate those cryonically preserved bodies is not just around the corner. Notice the article at http://www.nationalr...shire080202.asp where the conservative author says:

"Science has stopped. None of the really major scientific advances that you have been reading about since 1970 as "just over the horizon" is ever going to happen. Cheap fusion power; the colonization of Mars; artificial intelligence; supersonic air travel you can afford; contact with extraterrestrial civilizations; the conquest of cancer, tooth decay, or the common cold; fuhgeddaboutit."

Poppycock, william. Science has not stopped. There have been numerous advances in the last few years alone. Sequencing of the genome, tons of stuff in the cloning arena, computers continuing to get smaller and faster, the ability to detect planets outside of our solar system, HIV inhibitors, cell phones, etc., etc., etc. (anyone could go on and on with stuff that has either been discovered or invented since 1970) Just because some of the things that the author wanted to happen between 1970 and today has not happened, does not mean that they will never happen.

I have no college degrees or expertise in the "hard" sciences, but I think you could put cryonics in there too.

Cryonics is seen by many as a subset of cryobiology.

Also notice the part of the above article where he says:

"The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are saddled up and ready to ride. Just to remind you, their names are: War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. No. 4 will presumably always be with us

Hopefully not, that is the problem that many of the people here are working on defeating.


Also, when searching around, I found this previous thread on "Cryonics and the Bible".

[mike]

Live Forever,

I don't see how it is possible to make a blanket statement as to whether religion and Cryonics are compatible, as there are many religions with many different beliefs. Some of these beliefs would likely be more compatible with Cryonics than others. Same goes for Christianity -- it comes in many different "flavors." Some Christians would probably find more of an affinity for Cryonics than others.

I think people's beliefs in what happens after death would likely influence their views of Cryonics. While many religions have specific teachings as to what happens after death that believers in those religions accept on faith, I think that the question of whether or not there is an afterlife should ultimately be viewed as a scientific question rather than be tied to religious beliefs. Either there is or is not an afterlife, and the question is: Is there any evidence that suggests that an afterlife exists, and, if so, how well does that evidence hold up to scientific scrutiny? Parenthetically, I would add that I've met a couple of atheists who believe in an afterlife, but have no belief in a creator god.

I think it is likely that a person who has a strong conviction that at least some aspects of his consciousness, personality, and memories will survive the death of his body and continue on in a reasonably satistactory state will be more apt to have no interest in signing up for Cryonics. And a person who is convinced that oblivion follows death will (if he loves life and wants to continue living) be more inclined to sign up. And an agnostic on the issue of an afterlife will be more likely to vacillate on whether or not to sign up. (I think there are probably exceptions to this).

Mike

[Live Forever]

Live Forever,

I don't see how it is possible to make a blanket statement as to whether religion and Cryonics are compatible, as there are many religions with many different beliefs.  Some of these beliefs would likely be more compatible with Cryonics than others.  Same goes for Christianity -- it comes in many different "flavors."  Some Christians would probably find more of an affinity for Cryonics than others.

Totally agree, mike. I was mainly just interested in it as far as reaching out to people of faith. I think it would be a good thing for cryonics to be able to appeal to those who are religious, as it would increase their appeal to a wider audience.

Parenthetically, I would add that I've met a couple of atheists who believe in an afterlife, but have no belief in a creator god.

Really? Very interesting. Where do they think the afterlife came from, and how do they reconcile their belief in an afterlife with there being no god?

I think it is likely that a person who has a strong conviction that at least some aspects of his consciousness, personality, and memories will survive the death of his body and continue on in a reasonably satistactory state will be more apt to have no interest in signing up for Cryonics.  And a person who is convinced that oblivion follows death will (if he loves life and wants to continue living) be more inclined to sign up.  And an agnostic on the issue of an afterlife will be more likely to vacillate on whether or not to sign up.  (I think there are probably exceptions to this).

That is a reasonable assumption. Anyone, however, that is not 100% convinced of an aferlife (and I think most people are not 100% convinced, even most "strong Christians" I would assume, as evidenced by their desire to keep living rather than die when given the choice, no matter how much better their afterlife is supposed to be) would have room to be conviced of the merits of cryonics, I would think. The main trouble now for cryonics are the cultural ones, I think, not religious. If cryonics were more widespread, people would not find it as "weird" I am sure.

[william]

Live Forever, I have to admit it is you and Dr. Wowk giving me the education on the Bible and Cryonics here. Thanks!

I heard it's something like 104 or 114 degrees down in Arizona today. I hope they can stand the heat. Do you think the heat will get much worse with global warming? Maybe they'll have to move again. I noticed they have a cryonics facility in Michigan. How many do they have around the world? The impression I got was this thing is real small with only a very small number of people able to afford the cost of preservation.

On the part where you ask me "[a]t what point do we stop trying our best to extend people's lives? ...and who are you to make that decision about an artificial cutoff point for others?" I've given no negative answers here. Can you show me where I have? Ultimately, however, it will be God who makes the decision on who will be resurrected and who won't. The Scriptures say it is God who searches the hearts and minds and rewards a man according to his conduct and past deeds. See http://www.biblegate...10;&version=64; for example. God might consider Cryonics as an intrusion on His prerogative to reward a person through His power to resurrect the dead.

Mike made some real good points in his post. After thinking about it, I would have to turn down Cryonics preservation if I could afford it (which I can't) and wait for God's resurrection instead.

[mike]

Live Forever asked regarding atheists who believe in an afterlife: "Where do they think the afterlife came from, and how do they reconcile their belief in an afterlife with there being no god?"

Live Forever,

I can't say that I've discussed this topic in depth with these atheists, but the gist of their belief seems to be that the aspects of the human being that survive death somehow in the progress of evolution gained enough "escape velocity" to persist beyond the death of the body. And that this is simply an outcome of the general evolution of nature and has nothing to do with a god bestowing "eternal life" on certain people -- a god that these atheists don't believe exists anyway. By the way, I have probably given here an inadequate explanation of their beliefs and I wish they were here to answer the question themselves. I am certainly not in a position myself to defend their beliefs.

I also have met theists who believe that a god -- or overarching personal creative Intelligence -- created the universe, but who do not believe in an afterlife. In their belief, God deliberately designed the universe in such a way that the result was that it is impossible for people to survive the death of their bodies.

Mike

[bgwowk]

Mike wrote:

I don't see how it is possible to make a blanket statement as to whether religion and Cryonics are compatible, as there are many religions with many different beliefs.

The point is that cryonics is a form of medicine, and any religion compatible with medicine is compatible with cryonics.

I think people's beliefs in what happens after death would likely influence their views of Cryonics.

Beliefs about life after death have absolutely nothing to do with cryonics, or at least they shouldn't, because the purpose of cryonics is to prevent death like any other form of medicine.

I think it is likely that a person who has a strong conviction that at least some aspects of his consciousness, personality, and memories will survive the death of his body and continue on in a reasonably satistactory state will be more apt to have no interest in signing up for Cryonics.

In practice, yes, but this is really a form of hypocrisy since many of the same people would insist that it is a religious duty to take care one's health and seek medical treatment when needed. A promise of eternal life in the hereafter doesn't absolve one of the responsibility to maximize life and work done for God in the here and now. Take note, William.

The cost of cryonics is cheap when paid for a little bit at a time through life insurance. Most people consider health insurance a necessity, not a luxury for the rich, and insurance for cryonics is a minor addition compared to the cost of health insurance.

[mike]

Brian Wowk wrote regarding people who might eschew cryonics because of their strong belief in an afterlife:
"... this is really a form of hypocrisy since many of the same people would insist that it is a religious duty to take care one's health and seek medical treatment when needed. A promise of eternal life in the hereafter doesn't absolve one of the responsibility to maximize life and work done for God in the here and now."

Brian,

I think that when these people contemplate cryonics, such contemplation raises questions in their minds that almost inevitably take them to a different place than simply seeing cryonics as a form of medicine along the lines of other forms of medicine they might employ. One doesn't have to read far into the literature on cryonics to find discussions of the crucial necessity of preserving the physical structure of the brain in order to ensure that the cryonically suspended individual can be reanimated with memories, personality, and consciousness more or less intact. I think that for many afterlife believers contemplating these discussions, a strong implication presents itself to them on some level that their personalities, memories, etc., are ultimately nothing more than these physical neurological structures and that it follows that there is nothing about memories, personality, and consciousness that can ultimately survive the final dissolution of the brain. Hence, to sign up for cryonics would be to disavow their belief in an afterlife. Now, they may be right or wrong to feel this way, but I suspect for many afterlife believers, a contemplation of cryonics gives rise to such thoughts.

Mike

[bgwowk]

Yes of course cryonics makes people think about the physical basis of mind, and how that relates to their beliefs. That is why it is crucial for cryonicists to educate the public that the premise brain preservation = life preservation is ALREADY central to medicine, and cryonics introduces no new theological issues. The physical basis of mind is central to the practice of medicine in living people, including mainstream medical procedures that reversibly stop brain activity. Cryonics introduces no new philosophical elements. Whatever the soul does after information theoretic death, it will still do whether there is cryonics or not.

Saying that there is an intrinsic conflict between religion and cryonics is like saying there is an intrinsic conflict between religion and hypothermic neurosurgery in which patients are clinically dead. In fact there is no conflict, and there is rarely a perception of conflict because unlike cryonics neurosurgeons don't have to attach the legal label "dead" to begin their procedures. (That they can also demonstrate recovery in real time helps too!)

To properly address religious questions, cryonicists need to educate the public about the parallels between cryonics and what is already known and done in medicine. Unfortunately many atheist cryonicists would rather use cryonics to rub the noses of religious believers in the materialist basis of mind, and thereby attack beliefs in life after death. Can anyone imagine a neurosurgeon saying, "Ma'am, I can understand your reservations about not wanting this tumor removed because if I can revive you after being clinically dead, that would challenge your religious beliefs."???? That is effectively what has been said in this thread, and William actually cited Mike's comments as influencing his decision that he would rather die and be resurrected by God than have his death prevented by cryonics (at least for now). William needs to be told that the premises underlying his decision are fundamentally wrong!

The proper way to deal with these issues is to stipulate, as medicine already does, that the physical basis of mind applies as long as a patient is not dead (in the information theoretic sense). After a patient is information theoretically dead, science can say no more about the fate of a soul, and religions are free to believe what they will without conflict from science. If cryonics is to survive in this country, atheists have got to stop using it as a battering ram in arguments about religion.

To summarize, in theory there is no conflict between cryonics and religion, but in practice there is for reasons Mike states. The onus is on cryonicists to correct the misconceptions and double standards that give rise to the conflict.

[eternaltraveler]

Then you must also believe that hospitals, nursing homes, or other chronic care facilities will not survive end times either. This means only one thing: Life extension is only for the healthy; sick people requiring chronic attention of others should be abandoned. What a strange philosophy for a Christian to have!

come now, surely you know all the true christians will be raptured away by then )

[mike]

Brian Wowk wrote:
"The physical basis of mind is central to the practice of medicine in living people, including mainstream medical procedures that reversibly stop brain activity."

Brian,

I see your point. As you indicate, reanimation in real time and not applying the label "dead" are probably key to why these procedures don't seem to make many afterlife believers as uncomfortable as does cryonics. The believers haven't followed their logic about cryonics through to include mainstream medical procedures being practiced today, and can be educated to do so.

I should add that I personally became much more skeptical about the existence of an afterlife some years ago after I had an operation that required me to undergo general anesthesia. I suspect that many people undergo general anesthesia and emerge with their afterlife beliefs totally unquestioned, but at the same time can be made uncomfortable when they contemplate cryonics. But in my case, it was a currently applied mainstream medical procedure that initially made me more skeptical.

Speaking of William, in another thread he indicated that his religious belief is that an individual is unconscious and has no experiences after death until God supernaturally raises that individual from the dead. Of course, many Christians would disagree with him on that, but I'd think that that belief of his would, by itself, make him at least marginally more accepting of both a physical basis of mind and of cryonic suspension.

Mike

[mike]

A nice quote from Edgar Allan Poe's short story, "The Premature Burial:"

"The boundaries which divide Life from Death are at best shadowy and vague. Who shall say where the one ends, and where the other begins? We know that there are diseases in which occur total cessations of all the apparent functions of vitality, and yet in which these cessations are merely suspensions, properly so called. They are only temporary pauses in the incomprehensible mechanism. A certain period elapses, and some unseen mysterious principle again sets in motion the magic pinions and the wizard wheels. The silver cord was not for ever loosed, nor the golden bowl irreparably broken. But where, meantime, was the soul?"

[william]

come now, surely you know all the true christians will be raptured away by then )

The evangelical protestants mislead many with their teaching of the rapture elrond. For a better understanding of the rapture checkout the article at http://www.gnmagazin...n27/rapture.htm. The only part I disagree with the author of the article on is the part at the end where he says:

"Christians are resurrected from the dead or, if living at the time, changed to spirit at the last trumpet when Christ returns."

This in my opinion conflicts with their booklet The Gospel of the Kingdom, at http://www.gnmagazin...nterkingdom.htm, where the author says:

"The true gospel reveals that the saints—the faithful followers of Jesus Christ resurrected to eternal life at His return—will be actively involved in ruling with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God when it is established (Revelation 5:10). Prophecies in the book of Isaiah reveal that Christ will begin working with the human beings left alive after His return to teach them His ways. The resurrected saints will assist Christ in bringing about complete spiritual and physical healing of the nations (Isaiah 30:20, 21; 35:1, 5, 6)."

I believe only the dead will be resurrected at Christ's second coming and the living will not be changed to spirit as the author of the article on the rapture believes. The author of The Gospel of the Kingdom has the better understanding in my opinion.

[RighteousReason]

william, why are you here?

If you believe the end times are going to happen now (or ever), why do you care about immortality whatsoever? Unless you believe the scientific conquest of death is likely to be associated in some manner with Christ's second coming, an interest in immortality is inconsistent with a belief in the "end time", or so it seems to me.

[william]

william, why are you here?

If you believe the end times are going to happen now (or ever), why do you care about immortality whatsoever? Unless you believe the scientific conquest of death is likely to be associated in some manner with Christ's second coming, an interest in immortality is inconsistent with a belief in the "end time", or so it seems to me.

hank, I stick around here to pick up information and ideas from you people. I enjoy reading and learning. I also hope to convey my understanding of what God's Kingdom on earth under Christ will be like and how its flesh and blood inhabitants will achieve increased life spans in it.

Let me retract that hank. It was inappropriate to bring up old battles. And Don, Nietzsche was a monkey too. Remember that post by maestro949 with the monkey video that said Nietzsche was just another monkey too? All he knew was monkeyshines and shenanigans.

Edited by william, 16 July 2006 - 05:03 AM.

[DJS]

After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

[caston]

Even the first people to be rebuilt from cryonics probably won't be able to tell us if there is a heaven or a hell because the memories of it wouldn't have been stored in their brain.

[bgwowk]

Even the first people to be rebuilt from cryonics probably won't be able to tell us if there is a heaven or a hell because the memories of it wouldn't have been stored in their brain.

More to the point, anyone successfully recovered from cryonics will have nothing to say about Heaven or Hell because THEY WERE NEVER DEAD. Coma, even ametabolic coma, is not death.

[Live Forever]

I think the point that Dr. Wowk keeps trying to convey is very important. Cryonics is, in most people's mind, a reversal of death, but in reality it is just an extension of medical procedures that we currently use. There is no "death" (except in the legal sense, which is where people get thrown off I think) but instead it would be best to describe people in cryonic suspension as like being in a coma.

The example of hypothermic neurosurgery, or examples of people falling through ice and later being brought back, etc. seem particularly apt to me, when speaking of cryonics, because it shows how clinical death does not equal permanent death in all cases. Also, particulary in the case of the neosurgery, there are already established medical procedures that utilize clinical death as a procedure, and if this could be effectively conveyed in discussions with people (regardless of religion) I think the benefits could be more effectively expressed.

Hmm, lots to think about...

[DJS]

The term *death* corresponds with the irreversible loss of an identity pattern. Only upon reanimation (or attempted reanimation) will we be able to retrospectively make definitive statements about whether a particular individual was effectively *dead* or *in stasis*.

[william]

What about these near death experiences people have reported? See http://en.wikipedia....r-death_studies. Would these experiences have any bearing on this Cryonics preservation issue? Notice where the Wikipedia entry says:

"Greyson (1997) has also brought attention to the near-death experience as a focus of clinical attention, while Morse et.al (1985; 1986) have investigated Near-death experiences in a pediatric population. Ring has found that a typical set of values and belief changes often accompany the life of Near-Death experiencers. Among these after-effects we find changes in personality and outlook on life such as a greater appreciation for life, higher self-esteem, greater compassion for others, a heightened sense of purpose and self-understanding, desire to learn, elevated spirituality, greater ecological sensitivity and planetary concern, a feeling of being more intuitive (sometimes psychic), increased physical sensitivity, diminished tolerance to light/alcohol/drugs, a feeling that the brain has been "altered" to encompass more, a feeling that one is now using the "whole brain" rather than just a small part (Mauro, 1992)."

[bgwowk]

Reminds me of the recent study involving spiritual experiences caused by the active drug in magic mushrooms. Seriously. Many drugs and physiological conditions can induce altered states of consciousness. Cerebral oxygen deprivation (which is what a "near death" experience is) is just one of them.