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#1 Ghostrider

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:24 AM


So far, out of all the nootropics I have experimented with:

Piracetam (Two brands)
Aniracetam
Oxiracetam
ALCAR/ALA
Bacopa
Ridola Rosea
Taurine
L-Tyrosine
Adrafinil
Alpha-GPC
L-Theanine
Pyritinol
Centrophexine
Ortho-Mind
Vinpocetine
And likely some other stuff that I have already forgotten about...

Caffeine has provided the most potent cognitive enhancing effects. (I now know why people drink coffee despite the taste.) Although, I don't like getting caffeine from soda...too much sugar.

Has my experience been similar to the experience of others?

Does the body build up tolerance to the cognitive enhancing effects of caffeine or is this just a myth / negative placebo?

I know these are subjective questions. I can only back up my suggestion that caffeine might be the best *acute* cognitive enhancer available w/o prescription by the fact that studies on other cognitive enhancers such as modafinil and ADHD studies use caffeine as a benchmark along with a placebo. (And often times, the effects of the measured drugs meet or only slightly outperform caffeine in some tests.)

Also, an interesting article:
http://www.usnews.co...19/19coffee.htm

#2 kottke

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 08:24 AM

The article is too one sided. Coffee is good though [lol]

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#3 ikaros

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 09:29 AM

I wouldn't rate it as the best, but a significant nevertheless. It's wierd though, because some days caffeine works good at boosting my mental abilities, other days it doesn't do anything and even makes me sleepier. Plus I hate the wired feeling that often accompanies coffee.

#4 Ghostrider

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 04:14 PM

I wouldn't rate it as the best, but a significant nevertheless. It's wierd though, because some days caffeine works good at boosting my mental abilities, other days it doesn't do anything and even makes me sleepier. Plus I hate the wired feeling that often accompanies coffee.


What nootropic tops caffeine for *acute* effects? I have noticed the same effect you mentioned in regards to variable response. I find that if I have not consumed caffeine in a while, I get a strong effect the next time I consume it. But if I consume regularly, the effects mostly go away and I am only left with placebo.

#5 ikaros

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:40 PM

Well I can think of amphetamines (especially the milder ones like Ritalin etc) which beat caffeine for acute effects, but of course they bring on other nasty extras. Caffeine just builds up tolerance really quickly, so you can get the mental boost effect only when you haven't consumed it for a long time. Otherwise it's like drug addiction - you'll need the fix to stay normal, but you won't get the high anymore.

#6 xanadu

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 07:13 PM

People who want instant stimulation will gravitate toward things like caffeine, amphetamines and so on. Those who want health and long term benefits will use things like piracetam, fish oil etc. It may be that pir doesn't work for everyone, I don't know. However, I really doubt that long list of substances could fail for any one person. More likely they weren't given a good try or the benefits they gave were not what the person was looking for. Just my opinion.

#7 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:14 AM

Caffeine just builds up tolerance really quickly, so you can get the mental boost effect only when you haven't consumed it for a long time.  Otherwise it's like drug addiction - you'll need the fix to stay normal, but you won't get the high anymore.


Is this really true? I know people who drink moderate amounts (1 cup of coffee daily) for cognitive boost. Also, this would equate caffeine pills to being essentially worthless. If there is a recovery period needed to regain the acute effects, how long is the recovery period? I think I can safely say a month from personal experience, but I suppose it is likely much shorter...I just don't consume caffeine much anymore.

Does Modafinil build up the same tolerance?

#8 emerson

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 10:43 AM

Is this really true?  I know people who drink moderate amounts (1 cup of coffee daily) for cognitive boost.  Also, this would equate caffeine pills to being essentially worthless.  If there is a recovery period needed to regain the acute effects, how long is the recovery period?  I think I can safely say a month from personal experience, but I suppose it is likely much shorter...I just don't consume caffeine much anymore.

Does Modafinil build up the same tolerance?


Sadly, it pretty much meshes with what I found after gathering the best performance studies involving caffeine I could find, and then throwing out any which didn't first screen for normal use. A sizable majority of the studies out there wound up showing those performance gains 'after' the people used to their multiple doses had gone into withdrawal. Hardly a surprise that someone going through such would perform better when the discomfort was removed. In large part caffeine is a performance enhancing drug, but the problem is that much of that increase is coming from a low which it is in fact responsible for. What was normal before the habit can suddenly become "enhanced, or high" in terms of self-perception.

Unfortunately, I did all that quite some time ago and left any copies of it, were it still saved, a country away. If I remember correctly though, slight but measurable increases and decreases in performance did show on a couple of them even when the researchers had the good sense to include daily use within their selection criteria.

Too, one has to keep in mind that we have a lot of freedom in how and when we use caffeine. Even when tolerance has set in, it can be overcome by increasing the dose. Though I'm not really familiar with the research on abnormally high doses, so whether it'd be clear sailing all the way down is just whimsical speculation. Some people can kick the habit in a couple days, and it's quite possible that people who only drink during the M-F routine might wind up with the continuous benefit. And I've never looked at any studies specifically looking at how habitual coffee drinkers, and caffeine abstainers, would fare against tiredness induced performance decreases when going by their normal and non-extrasupplemental routeines. It may very well be that caffeine, even when a tolerance has been built up, can still give better resistance to that.

As far as modafinil goes, there's not nearly enough research out there, in my opinion, to say one way or another as far as long term use goes. For the short term, as far as my 'very' superficial look into the science goes, it seems to not have the same performance decreasing effect on cessation. The length of time it remains active in the system would allow it to avoid the possibility of going into early withdrawal stages during the nights sleep, a danger very apparent with caffeine.

I really do have to try to track down at least citations I might have emailed myself. I'm getting a distinct feeling of talking out my own ass when going by somewhat fuzzy memories from far too long back.

#9 becomingwiser

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 04:26 AM

Is this really true?  I know people who drink moderate amounts (1 cup of coffee daily) for cognitive boost.  Also, this would equate caffeine pills to being essentially worthless.  If there is a recovery period needed to regain the acute effects, how long is the recovery period?  I think I can safely say a month from personal experience, but I suppose it is likely much shorter...I just don't consume caffeine much anymore.

Does Modafinil build up the same tolerance?



err... let's not jump to wild conclusions over a single piece of biological information, people aren't all that stupid...

Mentally and physically you build up a tolerance level to doing night shifts. That doesn't mean your tolerance is "perfect" and you never have any aversion to doing nightshifts after that.

Similarly, studies show that caffeine does build up a tolerance level, but that tolerance level is minimal. The cost is more stress being put on the individual.... but IMO it's a lot better to undergo a little artificial stress like this than the ludicrously artificial stress modern life otherwise puts on us.

I just don't get people's problem with caffeine. Caffeine is a million times more natural than... well just about everything but raw food. You know what maybe it's a bit like music... when it's out in the open and everyone knows about it, it doesn't seem so good to a lot of people... they like to know the secret, almost magical formulae those other fools know nothing about. Well sorry to disappoint, but coffee really is one of, if not the most effective cognitive stimulant to use, and a stimulant that is the only thing I would choose to eat apart from organic raw food if I wasn't already addicted to all those processed foods (and they weren't a lot more convenient and cheap).

#10 Ghostrider

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 07:06 AM

Is this really true?  I know people who drink moderate amounts (1 cup of coffee daily) for cognitive boost.  Also, this would equate caffeine pills to being essentially worthless.  If there is a recovery period needed to regain the acute effects, how long is the recovery period?  I think I can safely say a month from personal experience, but I suppose it is likely much shorter...I just don't consume caffeine much anymore.

Does Modafinil build up the same tolerance?



err... let's not jump to wild conclusions over a single piece of biological information, people aren't all that stupid...


The question marks above indicate that I was asking questions rather than making conclusions. Where did I imply that "people are that stupid"?

I just don't get people's problem with caffeine. Caffeine is a million times more natural than... well just about everything but raw food. You know what maybe it's a bit like music... when it's out in the open and everyone knows about it, it doesn't seem so good to a lot of people... they like to know the secret, almost magical formulae those other fools know nothing about. Well sorry to disappoint, but coffee really is one of, if not the most effective cognitive stimulant to use, and a stimulant that is the only thing I would choose to eat apart from organic raw food if I wasn't already addicted to all those processed foods (and they weren't a lot more convenient and cheap).


Caffeine is definitely helpful at times, but I think the long-term costs and benefits of consumption are mostly unknown. It appears that there are some benefits and some costs. I would argue that it is most mainstream of all cognitive enhancers and since coffee tastes so terrible, not everyone drinks it because of the taste. Similar to beer, it tastes horrible, but if one likes the mental effect...

#11 kottke

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 11:16 AM

Weizen is a wonderful tasting bier [thumb]

#12 graatch

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 02:26 AM

>Caffeine is a million times more natural than... well just about everything but raw food.

Lol, Strychnine is a completely "natural" stimulant, you know.

>coffee really is one of, if not the most effective cognitive stimulant to us

From Pharmacotheon by Jonathan Ott:
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"Quite a bit of research has been conducted comparing caffeine with amphetamines, and almost invariably, amphetamines turn out to be superior to caffeine. Studies on reaction time under the influence of stimulants have found that in general caffeine has no effect on reaction times whereas amphetamines decrease reaction times (Adler et al. 1950; Lehmann & Csank 1957; Seashore & Ivy 1953; Weiss & Laties 1962). Amphetamines were also able to restore reaction times lengthened by fatigue in sleep-deprived subjects (Seashore & Ivy 1953). Marijuana (see Appendix A) on the other hand lengthens reaction time and impairs performance (Paton & Pertwee 1973b). With regard to steadiness of the hands, caffeine was found to impair steadiness (Adler et. al. 1950; Hollingworth 1912; Hull 1935; Lehmann & Csank 1957), while amphetamines improved hand steadiness (Adler et. al. 1950; Seashore & Ivy 1953; Thornton et. al. 1939). In various coordination tests, amphetamines were in general more effective than caffeine in improving performance (Weiss & Laties 1962). Summarizing these and other studies, B. Weiss and V.G. Laties of John Hopkins University concluded (Weiss & Laties 1962):

A very wide range of behavior (with the notable exception of intellectual tasks) can be enhanced by caffeine and the amphetamines - all the way from putting the shot to monitoring a clock face. Moreover, the superiority of amphetamines over caffeine is unquestionable ... Both from the standpoint of physiological and psychological cost, amphetamines and caffeine are rather benign agents. Except for reports of insomnia, the subjective effects of the amphetamines in normal doses are usually favorable. Moreover, no one has ever presented convincing evidence that they impair judgement. Caffeine seems somewhat less benign. Hollingsworth's subjects, after doses of about 240 mg and above, reported such symptoms as nervousness, feverishness, iritability, headache, and disturbed sleep. Caffeine also produces a significant increase in tremor. At dose levels that clearly enhance performance, the amphetamines seem not only more effective than caffeine, but less costly in terms of side-effects."
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(p. 66)

>I just don't get people's problem with caffeine.

It makes me all jittery. Good in a pinch though. If I haven't been fucking up tolerance with daily dosing then the occasional two cups of coffee is productive and euphoric.

#13 Ghostrider

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 04:16 AM

I took 200 mg of caffeine this morning in the form of 2 caffeine pills. (Used for studying, not long-term solution.) The response in the first half of the day was excellent, although perhaps too strong at first. Lots of energy, very alert. In the middle of the day, I felt a little paranoid (not usually paranoid) and now I feel maybe slightly depressed. This seems to correlate with what other people have discovered. It appears that caffeine depletes B6 and can be used to induce exaggerate stress (I am under a lot of stress). So here is an article outlining some of the negative aspects of caffeine:

http://stresshelp.tripod.com/id7.html

Going to go take some Inositol and multivitamin.

#14 Anne

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 06:19 AM

Caffeine is OK for increasing alertness when I feel like I'd fall asleep otherwise (and it isn't convenient to sleep!), but it does have annoying side effects (diuresis being the most annoying, followed closely by a "weird" feeling in the stomach, followed by the potential to make the heart beat more rapidly).

I *think* I'm getting some benefit from Piracetam but I really wish there were some way to test this more effectively on myself -- the effects I have noticed aren't alertness, per se, but rather a sort of memory enhancement. I'm not sure how useful this perceived memory enhancement is, but it is very interesting: it's like I am subject to spontaneous and random vivid memories from years and years ago (sometimes which have relevance to the immediate situation, which I suppose is fairly neat). I didn't expect this to happen and I've not read any documentation of it so far, so it's entirely possible that it's just me and my weird brain.

And I also take methlyphenidate (Concerta) as prescribed for self-regulation and attentional issues (though in my case it seems to help me *shift* tasks -- I'm pretty single-minded in my focus when unmedicated, and the medication helps me move from one thing to another more smoothly without getting really pissed off about having to change what I'm doing).

This medication has a completely different effect on me than caffeine does -- I appreciate that it doesn't make my stomach feel weird, make me jittery, or make me pee every 5 minutes! However, of course, I think different people are bound to react differently to various substances, and people ought to not settle for something that isn't working out for them. Caffeine seems to be rather "harsh" on my system but I fully acknowledge that that isn't the case for everyone.

#15 ikaros

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 10:19 AM

If amphs and caffeine had the same effect, there would be no amphetamine junkies out there.

#16 kottke

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 11:33 AM

Caffeine instills in me great motivation and heightened mood. If this comes from coffee i get a nice "come down" mid afternoon or so.If it comes from green tea or cola the positive effects are less but they kind of just taper off with no side effects. Caffeine also has a bad effect on my stomach.

--Anne, piracetam had the exact same effect on me as well and you described it to a tee. Hyperconcentration is also a problem of mine.

#17 kenj

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 04:02 PM

The cost is more stress being put on the individual.... but IMO it's a lot better to undergo a little artificial stress like this than the ludicrously artificial stress modern life otherwise puts on us.


IMO it's more smart to really drop these *disruptive* comparisons, as they serve nothing but keeping up coping strategies, which do not benefit anyone, especially NOT the one that actually uses them!
Caffeine IS ADDICTIVE in chronic dosing, and as such, I would definitely limit the consumption, and not forecast even worse scenario if not used.

#18 nomi

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 08:26 PM

caffeine is just a quick fix.

#19 Brainbox

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 09:06 PM

I use coffee for the occasional stimulance few times a week and stopped long term non-intermittent use. Seems to be a good compromise for me.

#20 doug123

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 09:07 PM

Does Modafinil build up the same tolerance?


Not for me.

#21 Ghostrider

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 09:56 PM

The cost is more stress being put on the individual.... but IMO it's a lot better to undergo a little artificial stress like this than the ludicrously artificial stress modern life otherwise puts on us.


IMO it's more smart to really drop these *disruptive* comparisons, as they serve nothing but keeping up coping strategies, which do not benefit anyone, especially NOT the one that actually uses them!
Caffeine IS ADDICTIVE in chronic dosing, and as such, I would definitely limit the consumption, and not forecast even worse scenario if not used.


Kenj, I agree completely. Caffeine is not a long-term solution. However, it does help boost motivation and concentration which are key to doing well on academic exams and standardized tests (assuming one does not develop a chronic habit). In the past I have found it beneficial to consume energy drinks before exams. I feel that they seem to pump me up. Sure some of it is placebo, but when I have consumed large amounts of caffeine without the intended goal of academic performance, I feel more alert, more aware. Yesterday, I think I consumed too much caffeine, especially considering that I do not regularly consume caffeine. There are negative benefits to caffeine usage, it can mess up one's sleep cycle for example. But after the exam, who cares. It's all about benefit / cost > 1.

Long-term, I definitely agree, caffeine is not the way to go. In a few years, and perhaps now (with perscription -- Modafinil???), there will be better ways to get the acute benefits that caffeine provides. But from my personal experience with the long list of nootropics above, none of those noots even comes close to delivering the acute effects compared to caffeine. I understand that they operate in completely different ways. I understand that nootropics are more healthy. However, after taking piracetam for two months and using two different vendors, I cannot attest to any mental performance enhancements. Still waiting on Bacopa...

#22 doug123

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 08:24 AM

Wow, that's a lot of stuff you've tried there buddy. I have never found Caffeine to be effective at anything other assisting in waking me up in the morning. When under pressure in school -- say, during finals week -- I'd take an extra dose of modafinil over extra coffee any day. It makes me have to urinate too much and can also make me feel nervous and more prone to make stupid mistakes.

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#23 Ghostrider

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 12:42 PM

Wow, that's a lot of stuff you've tried there buddy.  I have never found Caffeine to be effective at anything other assisting in waking me up in the morning.  When under pressure in school -- say, during finals week -- I'd take an extra dose of modafinil over extra coffee any day.  It makes me have to urinate too much and can also make me feel nervous and more prone to make stupid mistakes.


I am waiting to try modafinil. But based on my experience of adrafinil, I am not expecting much. For me, coffee certainly trumps adrafinil in terms of cognitive boost. I just started drinking coffee recently and I avoid it when I don't need the extra cognitive boost.




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