24 replies to this topic

[nihilisticmacaw]

http://www.uniquenut...m.asp?itemid=64

Is this a reliable source for deprenyl? Are there even cheaper sources of it? Also, how can I make sure that this deprenyl is not contaminated, that it's pure, given the recent warnings issued on online drugs. The testimonials from people who order from online shops are generally to be trusted if there's enough of them, and that lab assays are often done on certain nootropic drugs to ensure the purity of them, but nonetheless, there's the argument that the testimonials are biased and can be a result of the placebo effect. Is there any more convincing evidence that a supplier like UN will actually contain the active ingredient?

[nihilisticmacaw]

Also, do you generally trust the supplier that when most other drugs it gives out are pure and uncontaminated, that deprenyl is sure not to be contaminated?

[nihilisticmacaw]

what of airsealed marketing? It comes from India, which arouses some suspicions..

[kylyssa]

I use AllDayChemist.com - I buy the majority of my prescription medications there. Since my thyroid doesn't work at all, I'm sure I'd notice it if my thyroid pills were fake and my blood tests would pick it up, too - not to mention it doesn't take long to become comatose once you have no thyroid hormones in your body at all. I also buy my deprenyl and my birth-control (Centchroman, a non-steroidal once a week pill) there. I haven't gotten knocked up nor has anyone else on the Aphrodite Women's Health board who uses AllDayChemist.com for Centchroman. My friend gets her meds there, too, including her husband's blood pressure drugs - all of which seem to be working just fine.

They are by far the least expensive pharmacy I've found. Shipping is a bitch at around $30 but the product pricing offsets that big-time.

[doug123]

I remember reading of the mystical anti aging properties of Deprenyl, but was astonished to learn that this is pretty much all hype (and in fact, deprenyl might be dangerous for a healthy person)-- thanks to Michael's posts: here

Ghostrider inspired me to start a new series of posts, with the common theme: "myths" of anti aging or nootropics

The question is whether it's a good thing to increase SOD. Antioxidant enzymes are NEGATIVELY correlated with species max LS (1,2); expressing extra SOD without extra CAT could actually INCREASE free radical stress by converting minimally-toxic superoxide into more-toxic hydrogen peroxide without the capacity to break it further down to water; SOD knockouts fail to show accelerated mortality except under artificially-indduced high oxidative stress; Down's syndrome is characterized by high SOD activity; etc.

"Superoxide dismutase mimetics [EUK-134 or EUK-8] elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans" despite the fact that they protect against hihg-level oxidative stress and prevent brain damage after a stroke or induced seizure (3).

Most notably, "Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life span in mice" (4), despite the fact that increased SOD in this model also leads to increased CAT.

Deprenyl is often cited as a counterexample, but it really isn't. Yes, Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality. Flat ad hominem: Knoll had the patent on the stuff. See the desperate attempts to reconcile the data between different studies on pp. 3-8, esp. the lifespan discussions on pp 7-8, of (1). Much of this info (but without, alas, the unpublished stuff sumarized in (1)) is put in a tabular form in (2), which makes the fundamental lack of anything like a logical pattern in the results clear. IMO, this shows pretty clearly that even if you believe there's something to it as a life-extension drug, there is just no way that one can rationally USE it as such at this time as there is no basis upon which to reasonably extrapolate a dose which can be expected to consistently extend even AV'G LS in humans.

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:

http://groups.google.....4A@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....BC@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....84@aimnet.com

http://bmj.com/cgi/c...ll/317/7153/252
http://bmj.com/cgi/c...l/316/7139/1191
http://groups.google...m&output=gplain

(The first 3 largely go over the same ground, albeit from slightly
different angles; the others cover newer material).

A recent editorial comment on the study from which the last post is
abstracted:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)."

The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

It doesn't appear to give any reliable benefits in animal systems; it seems to kill the folks it's designed to TREAT; I just do not see how the risk:benefit calculation can be fudged to make it come out in favor of use by young, healthy people.

-Michael

1. Kitani K, Minami C, Isobe K, Maehara K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Why (--)deprenyl prolongs survivals of experimental animals: increase of anti-oxidant enzymes in brain and other body tissues as well as mobilization of various humoral factors may lead to systemic anti-aging effects.
Mech Ageing Dev. 2002 Apr 30;123(8):1087-100. Review.
PMID: 12044958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Kitani K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Assessing the effects of deprenyl on longevity and antioxidant defenses in
different animal models.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1998 Nov 20;854:291-306. Review.
PMID: 9928438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Keaney M, Matthijssens F, Sharpe M, Vanfleteren J, Gems D.
Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but
do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jul 15;37(2):239-50.
PMID: 15203195 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Huang TT, Carlson EJ, Gillespie AM, Shi Y, Epstein CJ.
Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life
span in mice.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2000 Jan;55(1):B5-9.
PMID: 10719757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by nootropikamil, 17 August 2006 - 10:12 PM.

[nihilisticmacaw]

Actually, I'm interested in the anti-ADD properties of deprenyl [there has been a research study comparing its efficacy to Ritalin], rather than the anti-aging ones. It seems like deprenyl is one of the only non-regulated anti-ADD drugs that one can obtain online.

[kylyssa]

I'm taking it for depression, a replacement for Wellbutrin which was not a good fit due to my medical history.

[doug123]

Regardless, the research to support the use of Ritalin is far more extensive to treat ADD than Deprenyl; and there are many more well studied drugs than Wellbutrin or deprenyl to treat depression.

Deprenyl would be my last choice option to treat both disorders. Furthermore, it appears to be unsafe.

[kylyssa]

So is just about everything else. I've tried a long string of things. Wellbutrin had
been the most successful and most tolerable of the last several drugs until
suddenly it wasn't. What are these safe effective, low side effect drugs to treat
depression? My doctor doesn't seem to be aware of them and gives deprenyl the
stamp of approval.

A few of what I tried (under doctor's care) and what they did:

Amitriptyline = heavy sedative effect, induced seizures
Paxil = narcolepsy like symptoms, no sex drive, depersonalization
Lexapro = sleepiness, frequent urination, foul taste in mouth, blurred vision
Prozac = panic attacks, sleepiness, complete death of sex drive
Effexor = panic attacks!!! holy, crap, pure anxiety!
Zoloft = sleepiness, headaches, tremor, nausea
Wellbutrin= tremor, foul moods, aggressive feelings, no sex drive

If my doctor thinks deprenyl is safe enough to try for someone who has
experienced brain injury and she plans to monitor my liver function (just like with most
of the rest) I'm trying it. I suggested it after research as we've already been down
most of the standard roads with drug therapy. It's not really something that can be
"talked out" I took some pretty serious brain damage then had the misfortune of
being the target of a poisoning. I have plenty of psychological reason to be bitchy but
none to be depressed. Aside from their often extreme side effects, most of what
we've tried for depression has worked to one degree or another, particularly those
that affected dopamine.

What is the basis for your strong objection to this medication if used under a doctor's care?

One of your own links stated - "CONCLUSIONS: Subjects with PD had twice the rate of mortality relative to age- and sex-matched comparators. However, those subjects who received selegiline at any time in combination with co-careldopa or co-beneldopa showed no significant difference in mortality compared with the comparators. Monotherapy with levodopa was associated with the highest mortality. "

I'm 36 and don't have Parkinson's Disease and my Doctor sees no interaction potential with
Synthroid (synthetic replacement thyroid hormone) or Centchroman (a S.E.R.M.) - what's
the safety issue? What has my doctor missed?

[doug123]

kylyssa: I don't know your doctor or what he or she might be thinking.

Many times, I've had to enlighten my own doctors on stuff they did not know about.

It's possilbe your doctor has not done a total review of the data. I've found the same with my own doctors on many occasions.

Print out what is found at this sci.life-extension post to your next session:

http://groups.google...=UTF-8&safe=off

Edited by nootropikamil, 18 August 2006 - 01:40 AM.

[kylyssa]

How is this any worse than any of the other antidepressant therapies I've been on? I hate to tell
you this but anything that triggers seizures can cause deaths. Many antidepressants can trigger
seizures. Antidepressants are not safe as houses. You get on antidepressants to lift depression
when the risks associated with depression are greater than the risks associated with the medication
to treat it. Or when the benefits (normal emotional life) outweigh the risks or possible side effects.

Anti-depressants are not vitamins or life-extension supplements - they are drugs designed to treat
an illness. If I could just decide to buck up and not be depressed simply by wanting it (with my
neurotransmitter levels biologically f-ed) I wouldn't need or desire an antidepressant therapy. Not
being depressed greatly contributes to quality of life. If my choices are to live to 90 depressed or
to live to 70 in an emotionally normal state I'd take the living to 70. If my choices were even further
separated and I could choose to live to a very physically fit 90 depressed or a physically quite decrepit
70 in an emotionally normal state - I'd still take the decrepit 70. Thing is, being depressed also
affects your physical health and vice versa so chances of living a healthy but depressed life aren't
all that high. Chances of anti-depressant drug therapy improving my quality of life until some better
alternatives come out are extremely high. Even with the vile side effects I experienced with
antidepressant drugs I previously took - they were an improvement over nothing!

Weren't the deaths in the Parkinson's studies associated with co-administration with L-Dopa? Didn't
the patients that died die of heart attack, stroke, and cancer? There's a big difference between how
a drug affects an elderly person who is physically ill and a young (or youngish person) who is not
physically ill. I am damaged but do not have an illness like Parkinson's. There's a world of difference
between a walloping whack on the head (now as healed as such things ever become) and an illness
like Parkinson's.

Why has deprenyl been approved to treat depression if it's unsafe? Where are the studies showing
it to cause measurable harm to young and healthy animals or people?

[doug123]

I don't know how you came up with the idea the deprenyl is used to treat depression. The only hypothetical cases I can see physicians prescribing Selegiline is in Parkinsons and perhaps Alzheimers.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/202519.htmlSelegiline ( seh-LEDGE-ah-leen) is used in combination with levodopa or levodopa and carbidopa combination to treat Parkinson's disease, sometimes called shaking palsy or paralysis agitans. This medicine works to increase and extend the effects of levodopa, and may help to slow the progress of Parkinson's disease.

Selegiline is available only with your doctor's prescription, in the following dosage form:

Oral
Capsules (U.S.)
Tablets (U.S. and Canada)

It appears that Selegiline is correlated with higher rates of mortality:

increased mortality associated with selegiline administration,[/u] in comparison to levodopa monotherapy.5 The authors of the accompanying editorial acknowledge the methodologic shortcomings of the Donnan et al. study, yet comment that their findings are supported by population-based studies demonstrating "... that patients treated with L-dopa alone do have a higher mortality rate ..."6 However, this is slightly misleading. In general, patients with PD have a shorter life expectancy than age-matched controls, and this includes levodopa-treated patients. Multiple studies have demonstrated a significant improvement in longevity linked to the introduction of levodopa therapy.7-13

Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. [b]Although we applaud the editorial authors’ enthusiasm in wanting to provide PD patients with neuroprotection, we hesitate to endorse their conclusion that "treating patients with selegiline ... is not a bad thing, and in fact may be a very good thing."6 [b]Prescribing medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including unnecessary expense to the patient and the potential of deleterious drug interactions.14

Edited by chrono, 27 October 2010 - 02:07 PM.
fixed quote tag

[doug123]

How is this any worse than any of the other antidepressant therapies I've been on?  I hate to tell
you this but anything that triggers seizures can cause deaths.  Many antidepressants can trigger
seizures.  Antidepressants are not safe as houses.  You get on antidepressants to lift depression
when the risks associated with depression are greater than the risks associated with the medication
to treat it.  Or when the benefits (normal emotional life) outweigh the risks or possible side effects.

Anti-depressants are not vitamins or life-extension supplements - they are drugs designed to treat
an illness.  If I could just decide to buck up and not be depressed simply by wanting it (with my
neurotransmitter levels biologically f-ed) I wouldn't need or desire an antidepressant therapy.  Not
being depressed greatly contributes to quality of life.  If my choices are to live to 90 depressed or
to live to 70 in an emotionally normal state I'd take the living to 70.  If my choices were even further
separated and I could choose to live to a very physically fit 90 depressed or a physically quite decrepit
70 in an emotionally normal state - I'd still take the decrepit 70.    Thing is, being depressed also
affects your physical health and vice versa so chances of living a healthy but depressed life aren't
all that high.  Chances of anti-depressant drug therapy improving my quality of life until some better
alternatives come out are extremely high.  Even with the vile side effects I experienced with
antidepressant drugs I previously took - they were an improvement over nothing!

Weren't the deaths in the Parkinson's studies associated with co-administration with L-Dopa?  Didn't
the patients that died die of heart attack, stroke, and cancer?  There's a big difference between how
a drug affects an elderly person who is physically ill and a young (or youngish person) who is not
physically ill.  I am damaged but do not have an illness like Parkinson's.  There's a world of difference
between a walloping whack on the head (now as healed as such things ever become) and an illness
like Parkinson's. 

Why has deprenyl been approved to treat depression if it's unsafe?  Where are the studies showing
it to cause measurable harm to young and healthy animals or people?

Look: I am getting tired of this topic. The use of deprenyl to extend lifespan of animals has never been confirmed. Even if it did, that wouldn't really say anything for sure about what deprenyl can do for a healthy human.

Your issues have been addressed previously. It looks to me like you are selectively not looking at what you don't want to see to support your conculsion. If you want to support your argument, please find some scientific references for support.

From here:

http://groups.google...=UTF-8&safe=off

Any dosage of deprenyl/selegiline that you take chronically may be
dangerous. The argument that the drug has a general "neuroprotective
effect" - the primary claim of those who used to push deprenyl as a
"life-extending drug" - has been thoroughly debunked by studies
published in 1995 and 1996 by the Parkinson's Disease Research Group
of the United Kingdom and the Parkinson Study Group of the United
States (ref. 1-4). The toxicities of deprenyl/selegiline may be linked
to the drug's l-methamphetamine and l-amphetamine metabolites, which
are known to be neurotoxic in the corpus striatum and related brain
regions (ref. 5-6). It would be tedious to rehash all the evidence on
this question that was raised during the "deprenyl debate," which
involved over 100 posts in sci.life-extension from April through July
of 1996. Before you start taking deprenyl/selegiline for any reason,
however, at a minimum you owe it to yourself to check out the studies
listed below.

To recall one key point from the deprenyl debate: The groundbreaking
study published by the Parkinson's Disease Research Group of the
United Kingdom in December, 1995 (ref. 2) found a 60% increase in
death rates over a 5-6 year period in deprenyl-treated patients with
"early, mild Parkinson's disease." The patients in question were
treated simultaneously with levodopa - the most common
anti-parkinsonian drug - but the consensus of experts in
neurodegenerative diseases was that deprenyl/selegiline alone led to
the problem. This finding is especially disturbing since patients with
early parkinsonianism ordinarily have nearly normal life expectancies.
The implication is that the increased death risks may apply to all
patients using the drug for extended periods. Dosages of
deprenyl/selegiline in the British study, which involved patients in
93 hospitals, were the "normal" 10 mg/day used for depression and
Parkinson's disease.

Given this data, it is alarming that many narcoleptic patients are
currently taking 2-4 times the dosages of deprenyl/selegiline given to
Parkinson's patients. I've written a brief review of this question for
the most recent issue of _Narcolepsy & Sleep Disorders_, which is now
in press. I will be happy to e-mail a copy of the review to anyone who
wants to see it.


1. Calne, DB. "Selegiline in Parkinson's disease. No neuroprotective
effect: increased mortality." British Medical Journal (BMJ) 1995; 11:
1583-4.

2. Lees, AJ, on behalf of the Parkinson's Disease Research Group of
the United Kingdom. ³Comparison of therapeutic effects and mortality
data of levodopa and levodopa combined with selegiline in patients
with early, mild Parkinson's disease.² British Medical Journal (BMJ)
1995; 11: 1602-1607.

3. Parkinson Study Group. ³Impact of deprenyl and tocopherol treatment
on Parkinson's disease in  DATATOP subjects not requiring levodopa.²
Ann Neurol 1996; 39(1): 29-36.

4. Parkinson Study Group. ³Impact of deprenyl and tocopherol treatment
on Parkinson's disease in  DATATOP patients requiring levodopa.² Ann
Neurol 1996; 39(1):37-45.

5. Reynolds, GP, et al. "Deprenyl is metabolized to methamphetamine
and amphetamine in man." British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
1978; 542-544.

6. Snyder, KM and Taylor, SH. "Amphetamine: differentiation by d and l
isomers of behavior involving brain norepinephrine or dopamine."
Science 1970; 168: 1487-9.

[kylyssa]

At what point did I say I was on Selegilene for life extension???



"I don't know how you came up with the idea the deprenyl is used to treat depression.
The only hypothetical cases I can see physicians prescribing Selegiline is in Parkinsons
and perhaps Alzheimers." - because it's used to treat depression, either with a patch
delivery system or orally. There's nothing hypothetical about it. Doctors prescribe it
(including my doctor) for depression and it is NOT considered off-label use. It's
prescribed for atypical depressive disorders. I chose not to go with the patch because
my skin doesn't do well with adhesives and I know I can be more compliant with
a pill format.

[doug123]

I don't claim to know anything -- you don't need to get all emotional. I try my best to use the best source of evidence (Medline or Medline Plus in this case -- which is a service of the US National Library of Medicine and the NIH [the National Institutes of Health)]-- screenshot attached) as an up to date and reliable source for indications for prescription drugs in the United States. Check it yourself. Currently, it seems Selegiline does not have an indication to treat depression (or even Alzheimer's). Maybe you should email them or call them to ask for an update? Personally, I'd avoid any compound that seems to have an inconclusive safety record.

http://www.nlm.nih.g...pdi/202519.html

Attached Files

•  dep.JPG   93.24KB   1 downloads

[kylyssa]

Medline and Medline Plus are very good information sources, but they are not the only sources.
Obviously they need an update. Good heavens, you can Google Emsam if using such a prosaic
search engine is not beneath you.

http://www.bms.com/c...SEQ=112&key=PPI

^^That's the Selegiline patch, Emsam. I'm very sensitive to adhesives so my doctor prescribed
oral Selegiline, 10 mg daily (oral administration requires a higher dosage than transdermal, the
digestive tract isn't as efficient at getting it into the bloodstream) plus DL-phenylalanine 600 mg.
She does her homework. She has several other brain damage + depression patients she's put
on this combo.


Maybe I'm getting all emotional because my Deprenyl hasn't kicked in yet. After all,
emotional lability is a symptom of my condition.

[doug123]

I'm trying to the bottom of this issue. WTF: ritalin (and amphetamine) KILL some people. I'm not saying let's throw the stuff away.

See: F.D.A. Orders Strong Warnings on Stimulants
http://www.imminst.o...=169&t=12096&s=

I checked Medline plus and it said parkinsons stuff and that's it.

Apparently there is some evidence to suggest it extends the life of dogs? Regardless, we shouldn't be discussing this in the advertisement forums.

Please comment here:

http://www.imminst.o...&f=6&t=12121&s=

[morbius]

The things he slams change from week to week. Recommending ritalin over deprenyl is bad advice in my opinion considering ritalin has been shown to cause chromosomal abnormalities. The modafinil he continually espouses as a wonder drug has no track record either. I say learn what you can and disregard kamil as biased/unbalanced. That is not meant to be an insult. I am not an MD yet but I am working on it and I base my analysis of the person on my psy undergrad (which was with honors from PSU) and his schizophrenic posting that I proved several times was in direct contradiction of previous posts. Proof which not only fell on deaf ears but lead to my being reprimanded. Take yourself dasense, he went from calling you a scam-artist to advertising your store to where we are now. What perplexes me is that even after all this is known, he is a pseudo-mod with a hand in every thread on the most comprehensive nootropic board I've found: A fact that has prevented me from formally joining and greatly reduced my personal traffic.

[magrus]

My doctor doesn't seem to be aware of them and gives deprenyl the
stamp of approval.

So does mine. After I had quit smoking i tried Wellbutrin - an experience I wouln't want to repeat, it was definitely not for me. On the other hand, Deprenyl at 1mg a day works just fine. I'm not planning to take it forever because even at this dosage (I have to agree with what Da-sense said in his "Deprenyl advise") it makes me somewhat more goal-oriented and much less reflective. For now it's okay but I do prefer some kind of balance between action and reflection.

I started taking it on my own and then told my doctor. He thinks it is fine.

Edited by chrono, 27 October 2010 - 02:07 PM.
fixed quote tag

[sigma88]

Depressive disorder can stem from several biochemical factors. Most common antidepressants address the issue of low Serotonin (SSRI) and are prescribed for such treatments.

Depression in general , or more accurately, loss of function through brain biochemistry, can range in symptoms, severity and success of considered treatment.
Most physicians are not aware of the full spectrum of this topic, unless they are psychopharmacologists.
Dopamine, Acet-choline, GABA and serotonin deficiency can all result in depression, the trick is to administer the right treatment to reestablish the equilibrium.
As far as I am aware, for Dop. deficiencies, which could onset as a result of simply having the flu for a week (flu drains your body of dopamine, who knew?), Deprenyl, Effexor, for naturals L-Tyro and sometimes even Provigil (in case of narcolepsy) can be tried with great success.

It truly depends on how much experience your primary MD has had, you will probably have more luck treating any imbalance you have by going to a more specialized MD.
Not all anti-depressants are created equal, and it is crucial to know enough to diagnose yourself (if you shall, inquisitive minds) You must do you part of the homework if you want a truly successive treatment, and at the same time save your money.

And educated choice would, especially concerning your brain health, would be such that would include an educated and honest scientific source, folks that come to this forum to find an ultimate advice should be warned that probably some of us did not take our medical board exams yet.

[superdopa]

Yeah sounds to me like that adam_camel guy doesnt know what he's talking about he refutes claims about it extending life-span. Doesn't mean it will kill you. I've taken deprenyl for ADD and it's one of the best supplements out there for it.

He also just randomly brings up the fact that it doesn't extend life-span when nobody said it did. Just think it's a little strange is all.

Edited by superdopa, 03 January 2008 - 11:35 AM.