132 replies to this topic

[xpanse]

peter


Peter, noone is denying that magnetism exists as a physical force in our universe.  What is being denied is that magnetism possesses therapeutic properties.  In order for such a belief to be established among rational agents a great deal of evidence (ie, "boring" scientific research) would need to be presented.

If you have scientific literature that you believe counts as evidence, then provided it.  Otherwise, go fish.  Quackery is met with strong resistence here at ImmInst.  Immortalists are interested in developing real anti-aging medicine, not magnetic charm bracelets.

My friend....you sound a bit old....as a sceptic sounds after years of being hardened by the true quacks of this world. Do you not believe that once put in the view of the masses...your term for yourself as a self proclaimed "Immortalist" would even partially reflect the urgings of a Quack? I urge you to look at Peters results....then look into the mirror....and see what actually doing SOMETHING will grant you. The longer you keep searching for that immortality potion (not to be taken literally mind you) the older you will be still and the more clouded the path to immortality will become.

Might I ask you sir, as well, to PUT UP or SHUT UP...or as Ronnie Coleman would say....go heavy or go home. See you on the other side.

[Lazarus Long]

I urge you to look at Peters results....

Yes I agree let's look at hard evidence. Where are the double blind studies that have been done by independent researchers?

Show me the data and I will support this but the burden of proof is on the claimant not the skeptic.

[DJS]

Yes I agree let's look at hard evidence. Where are the double blind studies that have been done by independent researchers?

Show me the data and I will support this but the burden of proof is on the claimant not the skeptic.

ditto

[FunkOdyssey]

Might I ask you sir, as well, to PUT UP or SHUT UP...or as Ronnie Coleman would say....go heavy or go home.

I'm pretty sure when Ronnie Coleman delivers that line, he's talking about going heavy in the gym, not with immortality magnets. [tung]

[Live Forever]

Yes I agree let's look at hard evidence.  Where are the double blind studies that have been done by independent researchers?

Show me the data and I will support this but the burden of proof is on the claimant not the skeptic.

I agree, the burden of proof is on the one making the claims.

I could say that I own a unicorn, it will grant me immortality, and if you send me $20 I will have it think your name, which will provide you with immortality as well. The burden of proof would be on me, and providing a study that proves all this is correct.

[FunkOdyssey]

I've been feeding my immortality unicorn a proprietary blend of herbal extracts that extended the length of its horn by 30%. For a meager sum ($9.95), this wisdom can be yours...

[Pablo M]

I've been feeding my immortality unicorn a proprietary blend of herbal extracts that extended the length of its horn by 30%. For a meager sum ($9.95), this wisdom can be yours...

Funk: money sent with a SASE. Please get back to me ASAP.

[jaydfox]

I've been feeding my immortality unicorn a proprietary blend of herbal extracts that extended the length of its horn by 30%. For a meager sum ($9.95), this wisdom can be yours...

Funk: money sent with a SASE. Please get back to me ASAP.

[lol]

...But seriously, that was a joke, right?

[peterragnar]

Go argue with those who did the studies I've already presented. I'm certainly not interested whether or not you ever use magnetic therapy. I presented them simply to show you that you might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Or for that matter (Laz) wether you defy 120 scientific studies done on vitamin C being valid or not. I don't at all care if you think vitamin C is bogus. The sad point is, you confuse being a critic with being intelligent. It takes no special intelligence to bash others. Why don't you give some of the readers some positive suggestions as to how you maintain youthfulness and vitality. No wonder this site is struggling with membership numbers.

I was simply sharing my experience with magnets. I am not making any claim that I haven't already addressed. So, I wouldn't bore you any longer. My final thought, "Any jackass can kick down a barn - but it takes a good carpenter build to build one!" Lets, keep things more positive, productive, and respectful.

[jaydfox]

Peter, on a semi-related note, I'm reminded of when that HRT study was going on where they found a slight "statistically significant" increase in various death rates (stroke and heart attack?) for women using HRT, and they:
A) stopped the study early, and
B) overgeneralized the results and effectively shut down an otherwise effective line of treatment, going against the wisdom of decades of studies.

The study's parameters were far too narrow to have generalized the results to HRT in general, and the significance was very small in comparison to the body of work out there. A "statistical significance" based on a few dozen deaths, when weighed against the millions of people who are taking, will take, or have taken these hormones, and when weighed against dozens of other studies, is the worst sort of "science" one can imagine. A higher confidence value should have been required. Talk about bioethics: had they kept the study going, they *might* have put a few dozen lives at risk, but by stopping the study, they literally put millions of lives at risk of a poorer quality of life.

As for the media splash that shut down HRT, I'm sure a lot of that was the fault of the media, but I never got the impression that this group made very explicit just how damned narrow their study was, and that it didn't really apply in most cases anyway.

The researchers did untold damage to the public and to women's health in general, and the study of HRT has yet to fully recover.

There are two points that can be taken with this, as far as magnetic therapies. On the one hand, the "science" of magnetic therapy goes against conventional wisdom and decades of medical scientific understanding, so it shouldn't get a free ride: criticism should be expected. On the other hand, while it should be held to a high standard, it shouldn't be shut down outright. Luckily for the magnet peddlers, the scientific mainstream hasn't been entirely successful in shutting down sales of magnet therapies.

But more and better studies are required. I'm not a naysayer, but I'm not a supporter. Of course, there's a fine line between a naysayer and one who merely advises caution based on limited availability of supporting research, and on the lack of a rational explanatory framework, and on the use of mystical and pseudo-scientific terms in general (allowing for the specific exceptions, of course).

[DJS]

Peter, the submissions and rebuttals for the SENS challenge just got released over at Tech Review. No one cares about your experience with magnets. )

[peterragnar]

Jay, I appreciate your well crafted and articulate response. Don, great! I look forward to hearing more on the SENS challenge and I'm glad we are puting the magnet issue to rest. I've got no problem of people respectfully agreeing to disagree. I assume there must be two different stacks of (Double Blind) studies that conflict with each other, since I've only seen one pile... well, enough said.

[jaydfox]

Articulate? I thought it was a tad emotional and pressing on the irrational, but then again, I get annoyed whenever I think about that study...

[peterragnar]

Don, how do I find or read the SENS data?

[peterragnar]

Jay, I'll read it again. Just blame strong social conditioning for me saying stupid things like, "Thank you, your welcome, Please pass the plate..." Perhaps I should use more grunts like "Hey, no problem!"

[Live Forever]

Don, how do I find or read the SENS data?

I assume you mean the submissions, and the rebuttals?

Here is the discussion about it:
http://www.imminst.o...&t=10328&hl=&s=

Direct link:
http://www.technologyreview.com/sens/

If you are wanting to know more about SENS, in general
http://www.sens.org

[peterragnar]

Live Forever, Thank you for responding.

[DJS]

Sorry Peter, I was out for a few minutes, otherwise I would have provided you with the links.

[jalquist]

To sell his products, Peter Ragnar advertises that he looks exceptionally young for his age (undisclosed), and that people say he is not visibly aging. My eyes tell me that, for all his good intentions and proven ability to sell products, he is indeed aging apace, and looks every one of his 62 years.

[icyT]

I'd have to agree ther J, though I'm sure he is quite vital, I'd more attribute that to fresh mountain air, strength training, martial arts, mindful eating and a healthy marriage. Nothing I see shows any exemplary health that would require mystical magnets and qi gong to acquire. If the magnets really do increase strength 1500% as advertised, I'm surprised he's not a champion power lifter, olympic weight lifter, UFC champion, and sprinter. I guess that just fosters negative Ki or something.

By the way, how are your energy healing and telepathy powers going Peter? Are they getting stronger? Where will they peak? What about seducing Lady Luck? Have you cleaned up in Vegas?

On the barnyard analogy, people do tear down or commandeer buildings out of code, as they're a danger to the people who would use them.

[icyT]

I thought I'd update this thread with a video I found on the net (actually, someone posted the link on Alex Chiu's Wikipedia article) about a live interview done with him recently by Martin Sargentson:

http://revision3.com...er/foreveryoung

So you can all watch to um.. familiarize yourself with magnetic flux and sanitation and things.

[Richard Leis]

The video is funny, but pathetic. Someday we will have the technology to help crazy, abused, and misled humans. Poor humans.

[amar]

I think those crazy, abused and misled humans you are referring too are the ones waiting for Jesus to come and save them..... Poor humans

There won't be just one savior. There will be many, unless we'll all wind up victims of the Christian apocolypse, or maybe I'll figure out that I alone exist in this dream of a world. In that case I'll have to revamp this whole damn world into something more forgivable singlehandedly. Poor human(s?). At least some of us will survive, if we just buy these little rings of power for a mere $29.95. [thumb]

[escapee]

I have never used Alex chiu device but magnetic therapy may one day be used as STD therapy for various cellular injuries in conjunction with conventional and nutritional intevention based on the science below

http://www.westonapr...ses/magnet.html

The theory behind the MME device is derived from the application of the Lamar Frequency Formula in physics. It states that by increasing the magnetic field in which an atom exists, the velocity of electrons and protons will be increased proportionately. With the MME, some electrons can theoretically be speeded up 10-20,000 times faster than normal.

At this dramatically increased velocity, magnetic resonance occurs much more readily. Magnetic resonance is a phenomenon that occurs when the pulsed electromagnetic current coming from the brain is at a harmonic of the frequency of the targeted tissue. This is described by Robert O. Becker, MD, a noted researcher, author, teacher, inventor and expert in biomagnetism in his books The Body Electric and Cross Currents. The net result of the enhancement in magnetic resonance is increased efficiency of chemical reactions and increased available energy to that specific area.

The MME is unique among therapeutic magnetic devices in that it uses all direct current (DC). There is no frequency and no pulsing--no "rippling," just a strong, steady-state magnetic field.

The patient arrived at the MME site 15 months after the stroke with her husband and two teenaged sons, who had acted as caregivers. Her condition at that time included speech impairment, right facial paralysis and motor function to only deltoid and biceps muscles on her right arm. She could barely walk with a walker and had very limited expression of her personality.

The treatment consisted of 308 hours under the MME during a space of 28 days. The results were excellent. Her speech returned to normal and her facial paralysis disappeared. Right arm and hand function were restored although she still lacked wrist flexion. She could walk again unassisted. Best of all, her former personality was completely restored, much to the joy of her family.

There are currently three Advanced Magnetic Research Institutes utilizing the MME devices carrying on approved pilot studies in the USA. Located in Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Southern California, they function under the direction of an Institutional Review Board and follow FDA guidelines. The research results will be filed with the FDA to obtain approval for MME treatment of stroke and other diseases. The treatment is also proving to be very useful for injuries, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, diabetic neuropathy and multiple sclerosis. Results with children suffering from cerebral palsy have been particularly gratifying.

[escapee]

And the clinica trial for MME is on going, Alex has got a real and scientific competitor.
http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT00134524

[Agarikon]

Have you guys checkout his "gorgeous pill", Alex sells a pill filled with a bunch of common herbs that can "change the shape of your bone" and make you "even more gorgeous than supermodels"

LOL

Alex Chiu should be studied -- not for his claims of immortality, but as a comedic genius

http://www.alexchiu.com/gorgeous/

[escapee]

Gorgeous pill is probably some TC herbs combo ( Ginseng ... ) The claim is both outrageous and funny ...

[escapee]

Yea, If the manipulation of pressure for HBOT can improve various neuro ailments & even MOBILIZE A STEM CELL, I can't see why the manipulation of biomagnetism couldnt achieve similar feat.

http://www.eurekaler...s-psf122805.php

"We reproduced the observations from humans in animals in order to identify the mechanism for the hyperbaric oxygen effect," added Thom. "We found that hyperbaric oxygen mobilizes stem/progenitor cells because it increases synthesis of a molecule called nitric oxide in the bone marrow. This synthesis is thought to trigger enzymes that mediate stem/progenitor cell release."

WHY ISNT HBOT WIDELY USED ?
http://www.drcranton...elyaccepted.htm