13 replies to this topic

[tpower]

Hi. I am a college student in my early 20s. Although this did not hit me earlier, but I recently realized that whenever I fall asleep, I dream. Now, I'm not implying that I am physically ill or diseased, since ever since I can remember, I have always dreamt while sleeping, no matter how short a duration the sleeping period was. I don't think this can be attributed to genetics, as my parents as well as my brother do not exhibit the same issue. My brother, according to himself, typically sleeps without any recollection of dreaming. I recall, from my psychology course, that dreaming is concomitant with REM sleep, which is absolutely paramount for physical regenerative purposes. But how much is too much? When I wake up, no matter how plentiful amount of sleep I get, I always feel tired and drowsy, as if I had just woken up in the midst of the night. This temporary drowsiness and the feeling of having just escaped from a dream, have always made me reluctant to get out of bed. This is in effect, impeding my overall efficiency since I lose a lot of time sleeping.

Given the advances in drugs such as nootropics, it is likely some drugs might have already been synthesized to target my kind of problem. But I use the word "problem" with care since I am not sure what the proportion of population has the same kind of sleep/dream manifestations. I do not exactly know what induces drowsiness, however, I do remember that it has to do with serotonin and melatonin, which are released from the suprachiasmatic neurons(?).

I hope some one with enough knowledge can shed some light onto how I may be able to sleep without having to dream, and consequently, how to obtain a better night's sleep.

Thanks

[Ghostrider]

Here's a great website:

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/

Everyone dreams. Whether you recall your dream depends on what stage of sleep that you wake up in. If I remember correctly, I think you are supposed to have some idea of what you were dreaming about when you wake up. If you don't, then that means you woke up prematurely while in a deeper stage of sleep...in other words, you weren't done yet. But I am not sure if this always applicable.

For me, I need 8 hours of sleep a night. I hate those occasions when I wake up feeling tired or drowsy. It seems to happen more often when I get too much sleep rather than too little. Environmental factors seem to affect my sleep the most, how quiet the environment is (I like to have my computer running to create white noise), how comfortable the bed / pillow are, and very important, the temperature of my room. Ideal room temp is around 60 degrees. So I know exactly what you are talking about. Go to that sleep site above though, they are much more knowledgable about sleep quality factors than I am.

I have experimented with magnesium supplements, inositol, and 5-HTP before bed. 5-HTP seemed to help me get to sleep faster the first time I used it, but I think this was largely placebo. When I do use it, I wondered if I feel more groggy in the morning, somewhat of a hang-over...so I stopped taking 5-HTP. The other two supps did nothing for me, but other people claim them to be beneficial. Both are cheap so maybe they are worth a try.

The best sleep you can get is by getting to the deeper sleep stages as fast as possible and staying there until you can wake up. Aside from environmental adjustments, I don't know how to do this...if you find a way with no negative consequences, let me know.

Good questions and welcome to imminst.

[xanadu]

Piracetam and occasional salvia divinorum use cause me to dream all the time. I always wake up with vague recollections of dreams which I can recall in some greater detail if I concentrate on them while still in the few minutes after waking. I've always had sleep trouble even before taking those supplements and back then I didn't recall dreams as much. I don't think it's advisable to stop dreaming even if you could. It seems to be needed for mental as well as physical health.

[dogbarf]

From what I recall, slow-wave sleep is actually more responsible for restful sleep than REM -- which is part of the reason my sleep aid of choice is gabapentin. I'm still trying to get my hands on other SWS enhancing drugs, but some aren't too common. Either way, gabapentin gives me the most rested sleep I've ever had.

[xanadu]

Gabapentin is a powerful prescription-only psychiatric drug. I would not use it for a sleep aid. The effect vary from person to person and it's usually prescribed for bipolar patients.

[stephen]

The science of sleeping and dreaming is still suprisingly speculative (as are most areas of the neurosciences).

I haven't read all the articles, but my personal experience is: most people exit REM sleep prior to waking up normally.

If my sleep is interrupted (by an alarm clock, partner, thunder), I almost ALWAYS remember what I was dreaming about. If, on the other hand, I wake up normally... I never remember my dreams.

A sure sign of an interrupted night of sleep for me is when I remember dreams. I feel exactly the way you described.

You should get checked for sleep apnea.

[dogbarf]

Modafinil is a powerful prescription-only drug (and scheduled), but many here find it useful. Galantamine, Hydergine, Deprenyl, etc. are all available by prescription. Gabapentin is approved for Postherpetic Neuralgia and Epilepsy and has been shown ineffective for bipolar disorder (Park-Davis paid $430 million in penalties for marketting it for BD). Gabapentin is also successfully used off-label for restless legs syndrome, allowing those patients to sleep. There's lots of research showing how it increases slow-wave sleep and improves sleep architecture. Some other studies even show positive effects on memory consolidation in mice. I could quote research but everyone here knows how to search pubmed. While I don't agree with the past marketing strategies for Neurontin (gabapentin), I'd say it's a pretty good candidate for a sleep aid -- even better than the typical ones (lunesta, ambien, etc.)

[xanadu]

Heavy drugs with multifaceted effects are not good to take as a sleeping pill. The safety of this one is still somewhat in doubt, IMO. There are lots of simple things you can take for sleep without the side effects. A simple antihistamine will induce drowsyness though tollerance results from overuse. There are lots of other things.

[dogbarf]

Some supporting research for use of gabapentin as a sleep aid, its safety, and even nootropic qualities:

Further_potential_of_the_gaba_receptor_in_the_treatment_of_insomnia.pdf
Memory_improving_actions_of_gabapentin_in_mice.pdf
Gabapentin_improves_memory_storage_in_mice.pdf
Gabapentin_in_childhood_epilepsy_safety.pdf
long-term_effects_of_gabapentin_in_the_immature_brain.pdf
Long-term_safety_and_efficacy_of_gabapentin.pdf
Gabapentin_exposure_in_human_pregnancy.pdf


As far as the side effect profile, it seems pretty comparable to diphenhydramine. In fact, in my personal experience using both, I tolerate gabapentin much better than diphenhydramine. You can add to that testimonial those of my girlfriend and sister. Or just try this google search.

[suppfreak]

Try L-tryptophan (precursor to Serotonin). It is available again in powder form and fairly inexpensive and cheap. The USP grade of the amino acid is quite safe. The whole reason it was ever banned is totally bogus and fraught with typical FDA revolving-door drug-cartel non-sense.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tryptophan

Also, look for a sleep clinics near you. If you can’t afford a night in the sleep lab outright, they are often doing studies. I was able to get a sleep study this way (funded by NIMH grants), with two nights in the sleep lab, no drugs to take (so you get useful results, etc), and $400 for my time.

[Ghostrider]

What do you do in the sleep lab. How do they monitor your sleep?

[purerealm]

by attaching electrodes all over your body and head to monitor your sleep stages, possible apnea, narcolepsy, restless leg syndrome, and a bunch of other things. obviously you sleep in a sleep lab, it's kind of like a hotel room really, but kind of creepy and uncomfortable because you've got this video camera trained on you, and some technologist guy is responsible for watching you sleep, but it can be kind of hard at first figuring out how to position your body so that the electrodes aren't being pushed into the back of your head and stuff.


I found out that I spend less time in deep sleep than most people, and I've got the same problem as OP. he recommended cognitive training in my case.

[suppfreak]

Yes, it is weird being all wired up and with a camera on you, etc. I felt that I slept OK both nights I was there. The first night's report showed I woke up 17 times (without being aware of doing so), the second night was 8-9 times, I think.

There are really so many reasons something like this could happen (refering to OP here), it really would be best to try to get a sleep study.