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We The Living


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#1 DJS

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 12:54 AM


I noticed a while back that a few of the members here at Imminst.org subscribe to objectivism, a philosophy espoused by Ayn Rand. My girlfriend also buys into objectivism and has most of Ayn Rand's books. So I took them home and am in the process of reading them. We The Living was one of the best books I have ever read. The characters, the plot, the intensity, the underlying message -- where do I begin! Now I am reading The Fountainhead and can't put it down. I have yet to read any of Ayn Rand's nonfiction which puts forth the objectivist philosophy in more clear terms, but I am itching to get my hands on them. Does anyone want to give their take on Ayn Rand/Objectivism?

PS... I think the Fountainhead is changing my world view.

#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 02:23 AM

Welcome to the club Don.

Now how are you at engineering and architecture?

#3 Sophianic

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 02:27 AM

I noticed a while back that a few of the members here at Imminst.org subscribe to objectivism, a philosophy espoused by Ayn Rand.  My girlfriend also buys into objectivism and has most of Ayn Rand's books.  So I took them home and am in the process of reading them.  We The Living was one of the best books I have ever read.  The characters, the plot, the intensity, the underlying message -- where do I begin!  Now I am reading The Fountainhead and can't put it down.  I have yet to read any of Ayn Rand's nonfiction which puts forth the objectivist philosophy in more clear terms, but I am itching to get my hands on them.  Does anyone want to give their take on Ayn Rand/Objectivism?

PS... I think the Fountainhead is changing my world view.

Ayn Rand has been described as one among four of the most influential philosophers in the history of the world, standing with the giants of philosophy: Aristotle, Plato and Kant. This would not be an exaggeration. Her mind is razor sharp; her commitment to Reason is formidable. I would suggest that you read everything she has written, including the works of Leonard Peikoff, her intellectual heir; you won't find a more clear and comprehensive treatment of her philosophy than in his book Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. I would also explore the work of Nathaniel Branden, whose The Psychology of Self-Esteem is a classic in the field, and the work of David Kelley, a worthy rival to the positions of Leonard Peikoff.

Anyone interested in her philosophy or fiction should be warned that there is a lot of animosity directed toward Rand and her philosophy, from within and from outside of the Objectivist movement. Take care not to take sides on an impulse. The reasons for the animus are complex and not always easily understood. Rand challenges the theory and practice of altruism in a way that should be lauded, but unfortunately too many are deeply threatened by this challenge because they don't understand what it is she is actually challenging. Bear that in mind when you assess the merits of the criticism leveled at Rand or the philosophy.

Objectivism is an extension and refinement on the brilliant philosophy and sense of life of Aristotle. That is not to say that Objectivism has nothing new to say, as some would insist. The entire system of philosophy that is Objectivism is a work of genius, logically and empirically interconnected in many complex and satisfying ways. Many of the criticisms that I've seen directed at her philosophical system reflect ignorance, a lack of appreciation of the inter-relatedness between and among the five major branches of her philosophy. I would suggest that one of its biggest contributions to modern thought is its reasoned rejection of the soul-body dichotomy, and its validation of reality, objectivity, reason, egoism, individual rights and objective art.

One of the most interesting (and least understood) aspects of her philosophy is its refutation of the instrinic nature of knowledge, first put forth by Plato. Many people often confuse intrinsic and objective knowledge (and values), leading to a ready (but ignorant) rejection of objectivity. For example, I believe the stance taken by The Extropy Institute on the objectivity of knowledge (re: induction) reflects an incomplete understanding of objectivist epistemology; the general critique of Objectivism at ExI also leaves much to be desired owing to its misunderstandings of this philosophy. You will see a lot of this kind of criticism. Sincere and concerned, but missing the mark, primarily because of a rudimentary understanding of the contextual and hierarchical nature of knowledge.

There are many sites on Objectivism, but here are links to the three main ones ...

Popular ... Solo HQ

Academic ... The Objectivist Center

Orthodox ... The Ayn Rand Institute

In time, you will come to prefer one over the other, but hopefully, you will not take sides and fail to gain valuable insights from the other two. With the assumption of Objectivism saturating the global community in the next century, it has been said that philosophy would then no longer be relevant to building an advanced civilization in the neverending quest for immortality. The Neo-Tech site maintains this position. Their perspectives and ideas build upon Objectivism, and may appear to be deceptively simple, but taken as a whole, provide a strong argument for moving beyond Objectivism in creating what they call The Civilization of the Universe, one that strongly endorses a commercial and biological pursuit of immortality.

One of the most powerful features of Objectivism is its ability to serve as a standard for assessing the value of other philosophies or philosophical ideas. It is that comprehensive in its scope. As for its take on the prospect of immortality, there are precious few ideas on it from an Objectivist perspective, but that will surely change in the not-so-distant future as the prospect of an ageless society gains greater currency.

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#4 DJS

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 04:54 AM

Yes, I read an excerpt of something Kelley wrote at the objectivist center. I can tell that he and Peikoff do not get along lol . Kelley defended his "extending" of objectivist philosophy and proceeded to characterize Peikoff's elk as tribalistic. I think I tend to agree with him.

I think the difference lies in the fact that Peikoff wants objectivism to be a major, possibly revolutionary, social movement. Whereas Kelley wants objectivism to benefit philosophy as a whole. Or more specifically, Kelley's stated goal is to turn objectivism into one of the pillars of philosophy.

Two very different goals. One ironically turns objectivity into dogma and the other maintains the virtue of the original ideals, but with no hope turning objectivism into anything other than a branch of philosophy.

Or at least that's how I see it.

Oh, and thank you for the links Sophianic.

Edited by Kissinger, 11 July 2003 - 04:56 AM.


#5 John Doe

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 07:33 PM

I too, have only recently discovered Ayn Rand. However, I skipped straight to her masterpiece, Atlas Shrugged, which is my favorite novel, and I watched the Fountainhead (which is excellent). I have many reservations about her ideas, but I can also identify myself as Randian without hesitation. There are so many ideas, at which I had independently arrived, that I have fallen in love with Rand's thoughts, and I suspect that I will come to agree with the remaining ideas. Personally, I think a bare minimum welfare can exist within a libertarian framework, because I do not (I think Rand does) distinguish between sins of commission or omission, and failing to provide a starving person with bread or shelter amounts to murder (however, I am a utilitarian, and if providing food only furthers the procreation of starving people, I might agree, but starving people do not commit suicide and must prefer starvation to death or being unborn). I also acknowledge the genuine threats of moral and epistemological skepticism and I think Rand's dogmatic assertions to moral and objective knowledge are naive.

Here are many of those ideas, some more idiosyncratic than others, which I had already thought myself:

Value is found in production and not passive entertainment. Atlas Shrugged praises the business tycoons and steel industrialists who produce the physical goods that everyone uses. There are a few small passages about, how the world economy collapse and people start spending more time in the movie theatre escaping. I had already only seen about 3 movies in 2003 and 2002 (I was raised on Hollywood) and became a vocal critic of the entertainment industry. I try to do more productive things with my time.

Individualism. Rand wrote that her entire philosophy can be described as individualism and I recognized myself as an individualist a long time ago. I strongly resist any attempt to agree simply because the majority agrees, and indeed, I find that the majority opinion is a good predictor for the incorrect answer to many controversial or important question.

Inventions cause economic growth. My ignorance of economics will show, but this has always been my intuition, although many people do not share it, apparently. Economies grow because of technological advances, both macro and micro, especially after the age of colonization. Rand understood the importance of technology before the discovery of computers, DNA, or the Internet.

Bad art. Rand criticized the corruption of the arts. I already agreed with the those who noticed the difference between the heights of classical music and pop music, between early Hollywood and summer blockbusters.

Celebrations need something to celebrate. I already thought celebrations are usually ridiculous affairs (Academy Awards) where an industry pats itself on the back. Rand criticized meaningless celebrations and her characters feel awkwards at celebrations and parties that serve no purpose.

Vacations are a time to work. Rand's characters try to work even during vacation and I had already people that vacations are a time to work. I hate the idea of laziness and lying on the beach sipping martinis, although this is the ideal use of time according to America.

Anti Original Sin. Atlas Shrugged explicitly negates what is perhaps the most absurd of so many Christian absurdities: the notion that humanity is naturally sinful, that sex is sinful. Rand wants to kill Original Sin just as much as she wants to kill Robin Hood. A particular example of this, which I can also relate to, is the scene in which Reardon turns the light back on before the sex scene:

"Standing straight, holding his glance, she extended her arm to the lamp on the table and turned out the light.  He approached.  He turned the light on again, with a single, contemptuous jerk of his wrist."


This emphasizes a question I had already asked myself, which is why do people (and women especially?) want to have sex in the dark? That only seems to promote the shamefulness of the act, keeps sex hidden like using the bathroom, and I think not being able to see the naked body of your lover is positively unsexy, even pacifying.

Life is to be lived on earth, not Heaven. This is a favorite theme from art (such as Emily Dickinson's poetry). John Galt specifically denies the relevance of any afterlife and criticizes those who fail to live on earth because of such delusions about such a place. This is especially important for immortalists.

No children. One peculiarity that people criticize Rand for is that she and her characters usually have no children, intentionally. I had already agreed with Rand a long time ago and decided to never have children or sacrifice my life for theirs. I especially do not agree with ethicists like Leon Kass who argue that we should willingly sacrifice our lives for our children, and even die so that the children can inherit the world. This is the conflict between our selfish genes and ourselves or brains - and I say so much the less for my genes (perhaps I will clone myself, although sex evolved for a reason).

Greed is good. Way before reading Atlas Shrugged I had not understood why greed is said to be evil, and I am glad that greed, in America, is legislated against less than, for example, homosexualityer point and agree that "selfishness is a virtue". I even subscribe to psychological egoism, which argues that all human actions are done because people think, in the long run, that action will cause them to feel the best. Although Rand bends the definitions of words such as selfish, I entirely understand her argument.

Laws are not sacred. So many people seem to assume that simply because something is illegal, it is immoral, even controversial laws that differ in other countries. How many people swear blind allegiance to their countries? But Rand's characters are criminals who not only disagree with bad laws, but break them. I have always been fascinated by crime, and I am quite critical of the government.

Feminism. Rand is a feminist. The hero of Atlas Shrugged is a woman. Even better, not only is Rand a feminist, but she does not go to the opposite extreme of insisting her women always act like men. Rather, Dagny is beautiful, sexy, and embraces the more feminine sex roles of willing slave, housewife etc. She is free to act as she wishes, not confined by any sex role. I have always been a feminist and desired to promote women's rights.

Edited by John Doe, 13 July 2003 - 05:05 AM.


#6 Bruce Klein

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 04:18 AM

I too bow to the exquisite writings of Rand. Adding to the mix here are a few clippings on her views about death/afterlife.




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