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Psychodelirium (Dan King)


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 11:07 PM


The following will be an open interview with fellow ImmInst member, Dan King (Psychodelirium).

The interview will cover Dan's life and his views on free will vs. determinism, plus we'll discuss his view on physical immortality.

Reference (Free Will vs Determinism):
http://www.naturalis...n_interview.htm
http://ase.tufts.edu...rs/kitdraft.htm
http://www.angelfire...ophyradio/#mind

Question 1:
Could you enlightening us as to the reason why you chose Psychodelirium as a nick? And, what do you attribute your interest in philosophy? Does it have to do with family history, personal fascination, or something else?


Question 2:
What is your reaction to the free will question? For instance, when someone say to you, 'I'm not responsible for my actions in that they were determined by the laws of physics'? Do you think Hitler was responsible, or he just subject to these deterministic laws as well?


Question 3:
What's your view on the question of physical immortality? Do you think it's possible? Do you think it's a worthy as a goal?

#2 Psychodelirium

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Posted 08 June 2003 - 11:58 PM

Question 1:
Could you enlightening us as to the reason why you chose Psychodelirium as a nick? And, what do you attribute your interest in philosophy?  Does it have to do with family history, personal fascination, or something else?


I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer to either of these questions. I chose "Psychodelirium" as a handle in some online game, and it seems to have followed me since then. It sprung to mind rather randomly at first, but I suppose it might entail a reference to altered states of consciousness, and consciousness, amongst related things, has always been a philosophical interest of mine. And speaking of my philosophical interests, I can't really trace those down to any specific roots, either. I've been fascinated with minds, broadly speaking, as long as I can remember, and the first philosophical texts that I read were all in the philosophy of mind. Naturally, the issues in that sub-discipline have led me to related ones in the philosophy of language, science, and so on - to a rather wide interest, in short.


Question 2:
What is your reaction to the free will question? For instance, when someone say to you, 'I'm not responsible for my actions in that they were determined by the laws of physics'? Do you think Hitler was responsible, or he just subject to these deterministic laws as well?


Well, to begin with, I come to this question from the compatibilist tradition of claiming that we can have real, valuable "free will" without any metaphysical embarassments. I think most of the skepticism about free will that we're seeing nowadays comes from the realization that a certain bad framework for thinking about the mind - a framework that goes back to Descartes - isn't fitting with anything that we know about our brains. This framework has been used to try and ground some ordinary everyday notions, like the notion of having a choice, or the notion of being responsible, in some rather dubious metaphysical notions that we now want to discard. For example one of these metaphysical underpinnings has been the idea of dualism, the idea that there is this immaterial soul or spirit - the real "you" - that controls your body. As long as that idea has seemed plausible, it has also seemed reasonable to explain the notions of choice and responsibility by saying that the decisions made by this immaterial soul weren't contingent on the states of the brain, or of the physical environment, but rather were guided by something like abstract moral principles.

So now that we don't believe in immaterial souls, a lot of people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. They want to say that since we can't ground choice and responsibility in Cartesian dualism, we should get rid of choice and responsibility altogether. Or at least, we should say that these notions are "pragmatically useful", and we should keep them in some distilled form, but they don't actually "refer" to anything real in the world.

There are two things that we can say to this. The first is that we could ground choice and responsibility in something more scientifically tenable than dualism. For example, the philosopher Dan Dennett has recently written a book that tries to ground them in memetics and evolution. I think much of the confusion surrounding the idea of free will comes from trying to look at minds through the remnants of the Cartesian categories. People see neurons in the brain doing their thing, and they start asking, well if all the intelligent work that the brain does is all parallel and distributed, where is the "self", where am "I"? Doesn't this mean that "I" don't do anything meaningful at all? Well, no, because the "I" in this question is the very same Cartesian soul that we want to say doesn't exist. If you think that "you" are a metaphysical ghost in the machine, then of course you're going to think your autonomy is being curbed by discoveries in cognitive science. The idea that Hitler is either responsible or determined, but couldn't possibly be both, turns on a presupposition of this sort. But you shouldn't think that. What "you" are, is part brain and part world. "You" are part of the drama played out by the universe, not a passive onlooker.

The second thing we can say, and if we are pragmatists, we will say it, is that there is no need to "ground" choice and responsibility at all. There is no need, because the putative distinction between "pragmatically useful to talk about" and "really really real" is not a distinction worth bothering with. In fact, this distinction has its own dubious metaphysical underpinnings: the idea that there is One True description of the world to which all other descriptions must reduce.

So what the question of free will comes down to in the end is this. If what we mean by "free will" is metaphysical Cartesian free will - "ultimate" free will, as Strawson calls it - then we don't have "free will". If what we mean by "free will" is something like the capacity for reflexive deliberation in pursuit of a growing ensemble of goals, then we do have "free will". The distinction becomes terminological - we have to choose which way of speaking we like more. And since even the incompatibilists agree that the idea of free will is "pragmatically useful to talk about", the choice should be obvious.

Question 3:
What's your view on the question of physical immortality?  Do you think it's possible?  Do you think it's a worthy as a goal?


Well, I think physical immortality isn't really a stand alone "goal", per se, but rather a logical outcome of other goals that we have. Human beings constantly want to do something, plan something, achieve something, make a mark on the world. As long as we have active interests to pursue, we will ever want to live, not die. We can sum up this attitude in the conveniently general slogan: life is fun, and death is boring. Perhaps if life were no longer any fun - never, at all - we might no longer feel so attached to it. But we live in interesting times, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

Physical immortality in the sense of living forever is very probably impossible. But the attitude of immortalism, at least as far as I agree with it, consists in fighting death to the last, even if the battle can never be conclusively over. We are engaged in a constant struggle to live longer, to do more, not so much in the pursuit of a nebulous goal of infinite existence.

#3 Bruce Klein

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 02:04 PM

Question 4:
You quote the slogan, "death is boring", but could this also be construed to mean that "death is oblivion"? And if so, how can one entertain the notion of oblivion? Would it not be more advantageous to at least strive toward the possibility of living an infinite amount of time, especially since we live in such "interesting times"?

Question 5:
Getting back to the question of 'free will', you've nicely summarized the historical evolution and the semantical problem. However, I’m still a little puzzled as to where you stand. You say “even the incompatibilists agree that the idea of free will is ‘pragmatically useful to talk about’, the choice should be obvious” but, this would not suggest to me that it’s true, only that it’s important to understand within the total philosophical framework. One wouldn’t believe in the notion of ‘free will’ just because it’s important to the discussion, would they?

Put more bluntly, do you think Strawson is correct? Is the future fixed?

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#4 Psychodelirium

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 06:51 PM

Question 4:
You quote the slogan, "death is boring", but could this also be construed to mean that "death is oblivion"?  And if so, how can one entertain the notion of oblivion? Would it not be more advantageous to at least strive toward the possibility of living an infinite amount of time, especially since we live in such "interesting times"?


Well, I completely agree with you that "death is boring" and "death is oblivion" come down to the same thing. Death is very bad. It is the paradigm of those human constraints that transhumanists always talk about transcending. And I also agree with you that it is advantageous to strive toward the possibility of living an infinite time, but it seems to me that this "striving" comes out of constantly trying to live longer, not out of trying to live forever. For example, I find news of advancements in life extension very interesting. But I don't find discussions bemoaning heat death very interesting at all.

I think my way of putting it has the advantage that everyone is familiar with "striving" in this sense. It is inherent to the entire project of medicine, for example. Just about everybody would agree that getting hit by a bus on the street, or getting shot in the head, or becoming terminally ill are all very bad things. And they're all very bad things because they cause involuntary death. The only problem, and this is where immortalists should be focusing, is that we are so used to the idea of a natural terminus to the human lifespan that we exempt it from the "very bad things" category above. And I think this is irrational, because this natural terminus is every bit as arbitrary and involuntary as getting hit by a bus on the street.

Question 5:
Getting back to the question of 'free will', you've nicely summarized the historical evolution and the semantical problem.  However,  I’m still a little puzzled as to where you stand.  You say “even the incompatibilists agree that the idea of free will is ‘pragmatically useful to talk about’, the choice should be obvious” but, this would not suggest to me that it’s true, only that it’s important to understand within the total philosophical framework.  One wouldn’t believe in the notion of ‘free will’ just  because it’s important to the discussion, would they? 

Put more bluntly, do you think Strawson is correct?  Is the future fixed?


Part of what I have been trying to say is that answering the question, "do we have free will?" calls not for "the truth" but for convention.

Most philosophers have seen that before we can make any progress on this question, we must first understand what ordinary language choice-and-responsibility talk actually means. Just what is it that we are talking about when we are talking about "free will", not in our capacity as philosophers, but in our capacity as human beings? Some of these philosophers have suggested that false Cartesian presuppositions are actually ingrained into this discourse. Strawson is one of these philosophers. He thinks that "ultimate" free will and "ultimate" responsibility are what we claim to have. And because he recognizes that these notions are really completely unintelligible, he comes out saying that we don't have free will and responsibility at all.

It's interesting that Strawson begins by saying that "ultimate" free will is what we claim to have, but then later, when Tamler Sommers asks him whether moral responsibility is an illusion, Strawson backpedals and says that he's talking about "ultimate" moral responsibility, and that, "there’s a clear, weaker, everyday sense of 'morally responsible' in which you and I and millions of other people are thoroughly morally responsible people." But if there is a clear and everyday sense of "morally responsible" that actually makes sense, why are we even bothering with the incoherent notion of "ultimate" moral responsibility?

The situation is exactly parallel with free will generally. According to Strawson et. al. unless we have "ultimate" free will, we don't have any kind of free will. According to people like myself and Dennett, there is a different, intelligible sense of free will, and in that sense we do have free will. Who is right? Do we have free will or don't we? Obviously - at least it's obvious to me - the decision should be conventional. It's a "which way of speaking is more useful" sort of question, not a "which way of speaking is actually true" sort of question.

#5 Bruce Klein

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 07:11 PM

Question: 6
What are you doing now with your life? Going to school? What are your future plans?


(also, if you have a picture, we can post this to the homepage after q. #6 - Thanks!)

#6 Psychodelirium

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Posted 09 June 2003 - 08:03 PM

Question: 6
What are you doing now with your life?  Going to school?  What are your future plans?


(also, if you have a picture, we can post this to the homepage after q. #6 - Thanks!)


Well I am, as I said, a philosophy student, and my interests in that regard have been both sufficiently wide and sufficiently focused to keep me reading intensively. I also have a few essays, papers and short stories that I keep taking up and putting back down, so I plan to finish all of them sometime soon and post the relevant ones to this site. Other than that - take a surfing trip someplace warm. I don't think very far ahead. lol

I'll see if I can dig you up a picture.

Edited by Psychodelirium, 09 June 2003 - 08:06 PM.


#7 diadulus

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 03:03 PM

Free will, what an intersting concept, the damned if you do damned if you don't!

I do what i do for things i percieve as good for me, self righteous and afterlife rewards included.

I don't do something for the opposite reasons of the above.

Conditioning and perception, S&M, the afterlife...

If we are driven then we must be the passenger.

If we coast then we tumble with the breeze.

I question my perceptions and try things that may be of no benifit to me in percievable terms, yet I learn - the experience whether bad or good damned or sainted. Perhaps freewill is not so much a tangible but more a realisation of consciousness and the desire, driven or not, be be more self than before. I guess my view on free will is a question,

Define self without the transient...




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