45 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

As I posted to Armrah's thread, I now have a small understanding of what he went through in that three friends and I were held at gunpoint tonight while walking back from a café to Pixar (which is located in the Oakland area). I’m really happy the perpetrators only wanted our wallets and pin numbers (which they promptly typed into their cell phones) before getting back in their stolen car and driving away.

This experience has made me become more interested in gun control. I think I remember that countries w/ such laws have much less crime of this type (Canada, Japan?).

[doug123]

Nothing happened to Susan, right, Bruce? Did they have a gun?

[zoolander]

Australia has very strict gun laws

If someone was held at gunpoint for anything here in Australia it would be all over the news.

Moral....come live in Australia

[doug123]

As I posted to Armrah's thread, I now have a small understanding of what he went through in that three friends and I were held at gunpoint tonight while walking back from a café to Pixar (which is located in the Oakland area). I’m really happy the perpetrators only wanted our wallets and pen numbers (which they promptly typed into their cell phones) before getting back in their stolen car and driving away.

This experience has made me become more interested in gun control.  I think I remember that countries w/ such laws have much less crime of this type (Canada, Japan?).

Ah, I'm retarted. Of course they had a gun. I'm exhausted...

If I were you, I'd consider getting one. At least to have one at home to protect you and your wife from the kind of stuff that happened to armrha.

[mitkat]

Canada has strict gun laws too, although close to the border, they have wavered from time to time. Last boxing day, 6 people were shot on Yonge street, middle of the day, and a 15 year old girl was killed. It was gunfire on the busiest commercial street in the city. There were 50 or so shootings last year in T.O., I know it definately was the most ever.

My gf lives in pretty "ghetto" neighborhood, and I don't ever feel threatened, just be reasonable and know your area. I feel WAY more threatened living in small time Alberta now, where everyone has a gun rack in their pickup trucks. I find it unnerving that everyone has a gun....what realistic purpose do they serve, in a place where people don't even lock their doors? No one's ever started anything with me at home in Toronto, and I've already gotten into a bar fight after one month here in cowboy country. I'm gonna scan my xrays! Yeeehaw.

[123456]

Very good that this negative event did not go further resulting in much more anguish, perhaps death. Depending on what actions were taken firstly by these hostiles, taking wallets and asking for PIN numbers, one could deduce that they were unlikely to kidnap making sure what information given is true, therefore you guys could probably have given them wrong PIN numbers; to be less conspicuous regarding your intentions, could have given all PIN numbers correctly except one number in the group. Anyway, it is just money, your lives are more important.

Not so much versed on Canadian gun control laws, you can get licence for guns I think. The main thing even with more strenuous gun laws, the majority of gun violence to what I can tell are caused by illegal firearms. Making new laws or enforcing ones in existence does very little when it comes to crimes committed by these weapons, the lawful people owning guns are the ones who suffer. Right now in Toronto, over the last couple of years times have gotten worst when it comes to illegal guns coming in from the United States, seem like every low life has a gun now in Canada. This is a beautiful country, I have seen it change over the years for the worst in regards to crime.

[mitkat]

Not so much versed on Canadian gun control laws, you can get licence for guns I think.

Yeah, they've got three different classes I believe. A friend of mine became a park ranger after college, so I heard all about it. Hunting rifles and the like are fairly easy to get, not so much anything worse/bigger. No handguns

seem like every low life has a gun now in Canada. This is a beautiful country, I have seen it change over the years for the worst in regards to crime.

Hey, I'm still gun-free. [thumb] Where in Canada are you from? There's been some gun hoarding going on with certain gangs in T.O. and Vancouver, but you have to know gun violence is still incredibly lower compared to many U.S major cities.

[Bruce Klein]

Interestingly, when asked for our pin #s, we mostly gave bogus numbers. Kind of strange though, because I gave them my cell phone (eve though they didn't ask for it) and even thought about giving them my car keys … but I gave them a bogus pin! Not sure what was going on there. Anyway, when it was over (took about 30 seconds) I really felt fortunate none of us were hurt physically. We managed to scrape up $3 in coin to pay the toll back into San Francisco... lol

[DJS]

I went through the process of obtaining my piece last year after I was mugged at gun point. If you have to frequently walk through bad areas it's a good idea to protect yourself adequately, but it can also wind up getting you killed if you don't understand what getting the drop on your assailant means (And if you get the drop -- take it. Self defense is not a crime). If there is more than one assailant, then you're probably better off backing down and hoping for the best.

Gun control is all fine and dandy, but I just looked at the reality of the situation and realize that American society is so saturated with firearms that supporting any particular social policy amounts to hand waving. If you're living in a big city and really want to protect yourself against the risk factor of societal violence, then get a hand gun and put the practice time in at the range (or the woods somewhere ).

[Bruce Klein]

In our situation (there were four of us walking), even if we all had guns ready to brandish, I bet one (or more) of us would have been shot because there were three guys... two taking our wallets (one with a revolver and one with an automatic handgun) and one in the car (driver's seat) who could have had a gun also...

[Bruce Klein]

Nothing happened to Susan..

It was just four of us... all guys (one of whom was Ben). Susan is back on the East Coast for now standing for the DC bar and visiting family.

We did manage to get the license plate number... through which we learned via the cops that the car was stolen and that the perpetrators had already robbed others earlier.

[Lazarus Long]

I am very sorry that this happened to you Bruce but frankly elated that no one was hurt.

As for guns everyone, you need to understand one very important aspect about them that goes with the training. If you pull it you better be prepared to use it. And if you use it, it is to kill, not wound like stupid movies imply, just kill.

You don't shoot a limb, you shoot for a vital part that stops the attacker in their tracks like the chest, or head if up close. Is everyone getting the idea?

Guns are for killing and if you have one you must be prepared to kill with it. You must also realize that a lot of people get killed with their own weapons by having them turned on them, not to mention innocent bystanders.

If you are not prepared to kill another then you must consider other options and frankly that takes more brains than guns generally provide. It also means staying a step or two ahead of the bad guys and not letting your guard down for a second. The radar goes up and there is no relaxing while in dangerous territory. A little healthy paranoia might just keep you alive even better than a gun fight.

[123456]

Same city as you Mitkat, Toronto, one of the best cities in the world if not the best. I know, assume, your next question/suggetion, if correct, I would have to decline; I am pretty much antisocial individual. [lol]

Hunting rifles and the like are fairly easy to get

True, I have seen in Canadian Tire, so many of them, so I would guess that they are easier to acquire than other types.

There's been some gun hoarding going on with certain gangs in T.O. and Vancouver

Right, the epicenter of these gun based crimes are more or less the larger cities, not to say that gangs do not have presence in other lesser ones. Going further, gangs are not just hoarding weapons as you stated but also are culprits in the illegal arms distribution to what I see, selling the weapons to other malicious individuals.

Going back to your initial post....

Last boxing day, 6 people were shot on Yonge street, middle of the day, and a 15 year old girl was killed. It was gunfire on the busiest commercial street in the city. There were 50 or so shootings last year in T.O., I know it definately was the most ever.

It is not something one would like to see in the news. That little girl who died along with the other innocent people that were affected certainly did not deserve such fate.

[caston]

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about the incident but I'm glad no one was hurt. Those morons care more about a quick fix than they do about curing aging.

I'd like to think I'm safe here in Perth but things can go pear shaped anywhere.

[RighteousReason]

In our situation (there were four of us walking), even if we all had guns ready to brandish, I bet one (or more) of us would have been shot because there were three guys... two taking our wallets (one with a revolver and one with an automatic handgun) and one in the car (driver's seat) who could have had a gun also...

Pretty well executed mugging... not much you can do about that (unless you were to have a hidden camera stashed somewhere on your self just for this incredibly improbable occasion).

Getting in a gun fight in this situation would be pointless, even if you have perfect aim, a .45 already in your hand, and the safety already off. Especially if the guy is sitting there with an automatic handgun!

[Shepard]

Carry around a sword. Even crackheads won't mess with people they think are insane.

[Karomesis]

glad you're guys are ok Bruce.

If it was me in that situation, I can honestly tell you the perpetrators would have been in far greater danger than myself. [ang] [ang]

I respond to things like that with extreme aggression and violence, especially if my family is involved or I thougt they were planning on killing me anyway after they got the money.
I train and have the knowledge to defend myself and others with extreme prejudice when neccessary. [mellow]

I prefer non-violence whenever possible and am loathe to get into any conflicts of any type. But If I have to I will do what I need to do to be safe and protect others.

[DJS]

If it was me in that situation, I can honestly tell you the perpetrators would have been in far greater danger than myself.

Well, I don't agree with this approach. If I were in Bruce's position I would have done exactly as he did. There were three perps, and they were obviously well coordinated. I wouldn't even be very scared with this type of scenario because these types of "professionals" don't want to be running from murder 1s.

Now, in my particular instance (not to hijack your thread, Bruce ) there was a single mugger and he seemed more scared than I was. He was trying to sound all tough, but I could hear the quiver in his voice. My main concern was with him shooting me by accident. And when I said, "Hey man, please don't point the gun at me, I'll give you everything you want" -- he complied. If I had a gun easily accessible it wouldn't have been difficult to put one in his upper chest, followed quickly by a move to push his gun hand away from my general direction (remember, fatally shot doesn't mean instantly dead).

Anyway, I'm glad you're okay Bruce. One last suggestion - if there are certain regular walking routes that you and your friends take try to vary them on a consistent basis. Criminals are very skilled at exploiting predictable patterns.

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Don. This seems a one-off event in that Ben, I and another friend were visiting a friend at Pixar. We all met at about 8PM at Pixar (a fortress-like facility located in the Oakland area) and then had dinner at a cafe (Can't Fail Cafe) one block away and then, while walking back to Pixar got held up right outside the gate on the main road. The robbers were driving in a stolen car from around 10miles away, so we happened to be in their path... but the general Oakland area (and that time of day) seem to have increased our chances of being robbed. I do now think more about where and when to travel in order to minimize this type of silliness. Apart from that, there seems little more that I can do (other than sharing my story), except to bring about greater-than-human-level intelligence sooner and safely... which we are doing on a daily basis.

[braz]

Glad you're OK, Bruce [thumb] Did you get the police involved?

[Bruce Klein]

Yes.. all four of us filed police reports. Thus far, no arrests have been made.

[Karomesis]

Well, I don't agree with this approach. If I were in Bruce's position I would have done exactly as he did.

Don, do you have kids?

That is one of the main reasons I would have acted that way. if You're just responsible for yourself,that's one thing, I have other little rugrats I have to watch out for, that changes everything

And the fact that I've trained specifically for hostile situations like that one helps to increase my confidence level when taking drastic actions like hitting someones sphenoid at full force and essentially diasbling them for a long time.

[kylyssa]

The fact is that you don't really know what you are going to do in that sort of situation until it happens. I had no idea that terror makes me belligerent and reckless until I was in a situation. I don't want to go into it right now but I've fought back against assailants. In one case in particular it was absoluckingfutely the wrong thing to do.

I'm grateful to hear no one was physically harmed in this incident - just reading about it was enough to be upsetting.

[DJS]

Don, do you have kids?

No, thank goodness. I've never understood the urge to procreate, though I have at times entertained the idea.

That is one of the main reasons I would have acted that way. if You're just responsible for yourself,that's one thing, I have other little rugrats I have to watch out for, that changes everything

I guess it all depends on the circumstances. The main goal should be to neutralize the threat. The problems arise when motivations go beyond that threshold and precipitate moralized action.

[attis]

Gun laws only take guns away from the lawful, not the criminals.

-- Bridget

[braz]

OK, it would be stupid to fight back against armed assailants, like in Bruce's case, doesn't matter if there are kids with you or not. You will simply get shot and whoever you are trying to protect will most likely share the same fate, and all your bravado will go to waste. However, if it's some hazed drug addict with a small knife trying to attack you, then obviously take the bastard down. In other words, "never enter the fight unless you are sure to be victorious" (I think its from the karate kid or something)

With all respect Bruce, you did the right thing.

[ameldedic2]

Move to south or north dakota, that's where I am, I would say it's a safe place (though I'm either at home, college, or home)

[Ghostrider]

Well, first of all, understand that those people who mugged you are just products of their environment. Realize that they could be completely different people if raised properly. There was a sequence of several failures that lead to the given incident in which you were involved. Hopefully this will help ease your anger (I would be really pissed if that happened to me and might even be driven to watch old "Walker Texas Ranger" episodes or Cops. (not really though)

Second, as an immortalist, take measures to avoid being in that type of situation. Stay around lots of people and do avoid bad parts of town. There is no need to go into bad parts of town. If you still feel like you have to, take a cab. This applies generally to everyone, if you feel that you are in a risky place, leave. It is better to walk away with your life than be injured or killed sooner or later.

Third, I think this one is obvious. Avoid carrying around your life savings in your wallet. Carry only what you need, library card, credit card, debit, and an adequate amount of cash. I have two bank accounts, one that is attached to the debit card in my wallet and a seperate account that my paycheck goes into which I use to fund the smaller account. The smaller account acts as a buffer or firewall for the larger account such that if my pin number was violated, I would only lose a small amount of money. I actually use my debit card more than my credit card because I don't like middlemen profiting off of my purchases.