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CRYONICS


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#1 vijun1

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:16 AM


I feel sorry for the people out there that are spending $30,000 to $50,000 to have their heads or their bodies frozen because they are wasting their money. Some scientist that work for cryonic companies believe that one day we will find a way to revive people by using nano technology to repair the cells that have been damaged by ice crystals. I think we will find a way to revive people, but I believe that if any damage is done to the parts of the brain that store memories there is no point in reviving the person. I think someone will eventually find a way to freeze a body without any ice crystals forming in the cells.

Euthanasia will have to become legal in European and North American countries before cryonic companies that are freezing human bodies can even have a chance at being successful. The fact that a person has to wait until they are legally dead to have their bodies frozen is ridiculous. It increases the chances of cell damage.

#2 DJS

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 04:43 PM

But if you got the bucks to have yourself frozen to begin with, couldn't you just get frozen somewhere else where it is legal and then transport your frozen remains to a cryonics facility in the states?

#3 Discarnate

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 09:09 PM

vijun1 - True, cryonics is currently a very risky bet, but those who believe in it state that it's better than the alternative, which is certain death.

Put in that perspective - which would you prefer? Taking a chance? Or knowing that if you die, you're gone forevermore?

(Fair notice - I am not, nor do I plan on, signing on with a cryonic outfit)

-Discarnate

#4 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 09:27 PM

Isn't this just another variant on the logic of Pascal's Wager?

This isn't meant to invalidate the choice, but it doesn't invalidate Pascal's point about God and the Universe either. It simply doesn't prove anything.

#5 ocsrazor

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 09:37 PM

Not Exactly Laz,

In Pascal's wager there is no rational method of estimating your odds of success. With cryonics at least there is some data by which to base your estimate of your chance of reanimation, and the probability of success will increase exponentially as the technology is further developed.

Peter

#6 myworldline

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 10:29 AM

I feel sorry for the people out there that are spending $30,000 to $50,000 to have their heads or their bodies frozen because they are wasting their money. Some scientist that work for cryonic companies believe that one day we will find a way to revive people by using nano technology to repair the cells that have been damaged by ice crystals. I think we will find a way to revive people, but I believe that if any damage is done to the parts of the brain that store memories there is no point in reviving the person. I think someone will eventually find a way to freeze a body without any ice crystals forming in the cells. 

Euthanasia will have to become legal in European and North American countries before cryonic companies that are freezing human bodies can even have a chance at being successful. The fact that a person has to wait until they are legally dead to have their bodies frozen is ridiculous. It increases the chances of cell damage.


Yes I agree, people should not be taken in for suckers by these snake oil salesmen, and instead spend their money on a nice car or a swimming pool or a world tour. And all that selfish and fruitless desire to have themselves resurrected may leave little change to pass on to the next on kin in their wills.

#7 ocsrazor

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 12:45 PM

myworldonline

I would like to know what experience you have had with Alcor to make you think they are snake oil salesmen. They are definitiely being extremely optimistic on the possibilities of revival, but they are extremely honest in telling people that there are no guarantees. The costs are actually much lower than what people think, because it is usually paid for with supplemental life insurance, so you can't spend it in advance.

Best,
Peter

#8 myworldline

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 11:06 PM

myworldonline

I would like to know what experience you have had with Alcor to make you think they are snake oil salesmen.  They are definitiely being extremely optimistic on the possibilities of revival, but they are extremely honest in telling people that there are no guarantees.  The costs are actually much lower than what people think, because it is usually paid for with supplemental life insurance, so you can't spend it in advance.

Best,
Peter


Peter

Alcor sounds more like a bunch religious gurus to you.

And sounds like they have more alcheapo budget freezing deals out to suck more people in. Now who do you think will pay to the reviving process at the other end if it ever happens? You may find the freezing part is by far the cheapest part of it.


Cheers
MWL

Edited by myworldline, 07 July 2003 - 11:07 PM.


#9 ocsrazor

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 11:25 PM

myworldonline,

The people at Alcor are exactly the opposite of religious gurus - they have objectively deduced that the chances of being revived after biological disintergration (burial) or cremation are nonexistant. The chances of being revived after suspension are slim, but they are increasing with every year as the technology improves.

You really should go do some research before you make any more ridiculous statements. I am not currently a member of Alcor, but I know their organization very well. The reason the technique is so expensive is exactly because they put the money into perpetual trusts for the stored person for the costs of maintenance and revival. There is no difference in the costs between someone who pays lump sum, or those that use life insurance to fund their suspension.

Furthermore, Alcor is a nonprofit foundation, and nobody is getting rich off this. They are barely breaking even each year, and would not survive without some enlightened external investment. The people at Alcor are doing what they are doing because they see this as one of the only possible lifeboats to the future.

Best,
Peter

#10 myworldline

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:13 AM

myworldonline,

The people at Alcor are exactly the opposite of religious gurus - they have objectively deduced that the chances of being revived after biological disintergration (burial) or cremation are nonexistant.  The chances of being revived after suspension are slim, but they are increasing with every year as the technology improves.

You really should go do some research before you make any more ridiculous statements.  I am not currently a member of Alcor, but I know their organization very well.  The reason the technique is so expensive is exactly because they put the money into perpetual trusts for the stored person for the costs of maintenance and revival.  There is no difference in the costs between someone who pays lump sum, or those that use life insurance to fund their suspension.

Furthermore, Alcor is a nonprofit foundation, and nobody is getting rich off this.  They are barely breaking even each year, and would not survive without some enlightened external investment.  The people at Alcor are doing what they are doing because they see this as one of the only possible lifeboats to the future.

Best,
Peter

Peter

If you were frozen and revived tomorrow or frozen and revived a trillion years from now. Would you know the difference?

So what is the big deal about being dead if you can never possibly be aware of your condition?

MWL

Edited by myworldline, 08 July 2003 - 03:15 AM.


#11 ocsrazor

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:23 AM

MWL,

On knowing how long you have been suspended - No, all mental processes will stop - was there a point to the question?

Having a chance at coming back, however slim, is the big deal.

Peter

#12 myworldline

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 05:01 AM

MWL,

Having a chance at coming back, however slim, is the big deal.

Peter


Peter

Really a no brainer Why? because the part of your brain that causes you to be anxious about your mortality will also die. So once you are dead really could not give a dam whether you came back or not.

MWL

#13 Vik

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 05:02 AM

For the baby boomers out there cyro might be the only solution for them right now. As it stands now, or as at least how i understand it, is that they will be very close if not at the end of their lives when life saving technologies and radical life extensions will come about. Thus, i think that if its a chance it is better than nothing. Also, MWL, no scientific paper has ever stated that cyro is impossible or will never happen or is violates a physical law. If u have ran into one please show me. And i don't knw where people are getting that cyrp will cost 30 to 40 thousand. Cyro is actually pretty cheap that is actually covered by ur insurance as Peter has stated

Edited by ravi, 11 July 2003 - 05:04 AM.


#14 myworldline

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 02:26 PM

I just won't work, as the brain deterorates with in minutes of death.
Here is an extract from Quackwatch
National Council Against Health Fraud president William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., calls cryonics "quackery's last shot at you." In an interview he said:

Cryonic technology has not been demonstrated to work in laboratory animals. Even if the rest of a person's body could be revived after hundreds of years, the brain could not. Brain cells deteriorate within minutes after death, and any still viable when the body is frozen would be burst by the freezing process. Cryonics might be a suitable subject for scientific research, but marketing an unproven method to the public is quackery



#15 Vik

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:31 PM

k say u take this at face value and it is true...if and when it becomes legalized to freeze a body before death..ie..before brain cells are destroyed)....could it work then?

#16 myworldline

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 01:28 AM

k say u take this at face value and it is true...if and when it becomes legalized to freeze a body before death..ie..before brain cells are destroyed)....could it work then?


Would you like to be the guinea pig?

#17 ocsrazor

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 01:47 AM

Ravi- myworldline is not a reliable source of technical information on this subject, please see the other cryonics thread, http://www.imminst.o...61&t=172&hl=&s= for evidence of such. You have approximately 15-20 after cessation of cardiopulmonary activity before irreparable brain damage sets in, and this will vary depending on what type of life support is attached to. These times can be estimated from what is known of patients who have cardiac or respiratory failure, as well as a number of animal experiments.

I know Alcor will begin the process as soon as they get legal definition of death from the doctor, and will set up to cool the patient down in advance if they know death is imminent. This is a critical factor in getting a good suspension.

MWL - "It just won't work." is not an acceptable argument, if you want to provide us for some evidence of why it won't be possible, please do so. None of the attempts you have made so far come even close to being convincing. Also, there is no risk in being the guinea pig if you are going to die anyway.

Peter

#18 myworldline

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 06:32 AM

Ravi- myworldline is not a reliable source of technical information on this subject, please see the other cryonics thread, http://www.imminst.o...61&t=172&hl=&s= for evidence of such. You have approximately 15-20 after cessation of cardiopulmonary activity before irreparable brain damage sets in, and this will vary depending on what type of life support is attached to. These times can be estimated from what is known of patients who have cardiac or respiratory failure, as well as a number of animal experiments.

I know Alcor will begin the process as soon as they get legal definition of death from the doctor, and will set up to cool the patient down in advance if they know death is imminent.  This is a critical factor in getting a good suspension.

MWL - "It just won't work." is not an acceptable argument, if you want to provide us for some evidence of why it won't be possible, please do so.  None of the attempts you have made so far come even close to being convincing.  Also, there is no risk in being the guinea pig if you are going to die anyway.

Peter


How much time on average is the between the patient be declared dead by the physician and the time he/she is frozen?
Anoxia a hypoxia are extremely serious hurdles to overcome, and every minute brain cells are in self destruction overdrive.
Anoxia
Cerebral Hypoxia
Hypoxic-anoxic brain injury
Experts in the field
does not give you much time to act before irreversable injury sets in.
Just read the facts.

#19 AgentNyder

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 04:31 AM

I can only see it working if you commit euthanasia.

Because you CANNOT have a physician on standby 24 hours to immediately declare you dead as soon as it happens. Obviously it is crucial to be declared legally dead ASAP so that you can be preserved by cryonics procedures.

If you could arrange your death then you could easily arrange the physician, lawyers and cryonics people to be ready as soon as your breathing stops.

THEREFORE it is imperative that we are in a country where euthanasia or assisted suicide is legal.

UNFORTUNATELY countries like Australia and America do not allow us the RIGHT to choose when we want to die.

#20 AgentNyder

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 04:37 AM

http://www.benbest.c...cs/summary.html

Hmm this is interesting :p (About the procedures after legal death has occured to get someone into cryo suspension)

#21 temir

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Posted 22 August 2003 - 07:48 AM

Hmm. Let's ask the other way: In which countries is euthanasia or at least a faster declaration of death by a doctor allowed? Weren't the Netherlands and Australia passing some new legislation recently?




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