81 replies to this topic

[halcyondays]

I should also mention that I do not discount the idea of existence after death, I just haven't see any evidence for it. There are some strange occurrences that sort of make you wonder what is going on though.

I have read stories about people who had near death experiences who saw things happening outside of their body when their face was covered up during surgery so they couldn't have seen it with their eyes. That kind of makes you wonder if we might have other senses that we just don't know about. It doesn't necessarily mean we have souls, just that we don't know everything about the human mind and what it is capable of.

[braz]

Biknut, do you even understand what a "different dimension" is? Where exactly are you getting all these "facts" from? Spin off with your imagination and provide some rational proofs to your claims; if you're just messing around then be a bit more creative.

[olaf.larsson]

Its very amusing for europeans to read that americans belive in such things as "hell".

[biknut]

Its very amusing for europeans to read that americans belive in such things as "hell".

I thought the Pope lives in Europe. I think he believes in hell doesn't he?

[biknut]

Well somebody sure as hell is.  This dialog is a joke, right?  Some kind of spoof?...I hope...

Don, do you think my friend's beliefs are less believable than other religions?

His beliefs about the trees are similar to Kelt's, and American aboriginals. I don't think he knows anything about those peoples beliefs though.

[biknut]

These are some things I've seen first hand.

Anyone that travels to Asia may see these things. Maybe this will help you understand some things you may observe.

A couple of years ago I went to Hong Kong. I was in the company of "a skilled guide". A popular tourist destination are the many Temples. Many are Buddhist and Tao. To tourists they are interesting curiosity's, but to the locals they are working Temples. They actually welcome anyone to came and observe their operation, and worship.

When you walk around the grounds you will see large open incinerators with burning fires going. The purpose is that when you throw something inside, like a article of clothing, the belief is this will make that article available to people in the next dimension, money to. They have special money for this purpose. You'll see it laying all over the ground at Temples. Don't pick it up.

Also on the outside of the Temple grounds you might see plates of food and drinks on the ground. These are for souls that are attracted to the Temples. The monks take precautions to keep these souls from being able to enter the Temple grounds, but take pity on them and offer them food. These souls are just a nuisance to them. They would pefer that they leave this world rather than stick around. The souls are attracted to the Temples because the Temples appear as bright beacons of light to them. Kind of like moths attracted to the light. Don't touch these offerings. The monks know the souls can't eat the food, but the food has energy that the souls can "eat".

Well over a billion people have these beliefs.

[braz]

Biknut,

The one true god is the invisible cosmic Mickey Mouse that lives inside the planet Pluto. He is the creator of all things, and He himself is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent. You must worship Mickey and no other god, or else you will suffer an eternity in hell. If you die without a tattoo of Mickey Mouse on your right buttock, you wil be subject to eternal damnation.

[biknut]

I got one. Just kidding. Funny you should say that though, my friend loves Mickey Mouse.

[stephenszpak]

biknut

biknut wrote> The people that can communicate with the other dimensions can only see so far. The higher levels would require them to have great power to be able to see. I doubt there's anyone in this world with enough power to see that far. What they can do is talk to someone in a higher dimension that has knowledge about even higher dimensions.

Stephen wrote> Communication with the dead is not what you want to be doing.


From Deuteronomy Chapter 18:

10"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

12"For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD...


http://www.biblegate...r=18&version=49

Also of note is what happened to a king when he consulted the dead
prophet Samuel.

1 Samuel Chapter 28

http://www.biblegate...r=28&version=49
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
biknut wrote> Well over a billion people
have these beliefs.

Stephen wrote> Many on Earth are deceived.

-Stephen

[biknut]

Stephen wrote> Communication with the dead is not what you want to be doing.
                         
From Deuteronomy Chapter 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

Yeah, this does imply that it's possible though. He did tell me It causes a lot of problems for him. It depends on what you do with the information, as to how much. The penalty fits the crime so to speak. There is always a penalty though.

Stephen wrote> Many on Earth are deceived. -Stephen

This is just propaganda to scare people into being Christians. On the other side all religions are equal.

[stephenszpak]

biknut

biknit wrote> This is just propaganda to scare people into being Christians. On the other side all religions are equal.


Stephen wrote> The dead told you this? Or someone who talks to the dead?

-Stephen

[stephenszpak]

The only thing that gives life meaning is existence. If you cease to exist then life has no meaning. The entire Leon Kass argument that death gives life meaning is patently false imo. The shorter your life the less meaning it has as well I believe.

That's my personal opinion on life and death. Our lives are defined by death only because we have had no other choice in the past. In our lifetimes we might have a choice, and that is going to revolutionize society imo.

halcyondays

It all goes back to the question "Do I have a immortal soul or not?" and next,
"Will I live again in a body?"
================================================================================
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

http://www.biblegate...r=15&version=49

1 Corinthians Chapter 15

================================================================================

If you don't have a immortal soul nothing matters. Take a life. Save a life. Stand by indifferently.

Some say "Well I'll live on in the minds of those
that love me." For how long? 50 years? 100 years? So *then* you're dead?

One of the promises of Jesus is that those that follow Him will live again but not die again.

-Stephen

[kgmax]

If you don't have a immortal soul nothing matters. Take a life. Save a life. Stand by indifferently.

That is a frightening statement. I hope that fear of hell is not your only deterring factor for murder, rape, theft, adultery etc.

[stephenszpak]

kgmax

kgmax wrote> That is a frightening statement.

I do stand by the statement. (Of course I believe everyone has a soul.)

Many these days say that humans are not a special form of life. They say
we are no more or less valuable than birds or fish etc. It's all goes back to
"Is there life after death?" "Does God exist?" "Does God have
real characteristics?" And other basic questions as well.

There is nothing wrong with having a fear of God. It is the beginning of wisdom.
It is also a deterrent as a Christian (at least to me).

-Stephen

[biknut]

My father was a Methodist Minister. He died when I was 12 years old at the age of 57. He had a birth defect in his heart that contributed he his early demise. In the last few weeks of life he became very Ill. We were too poor for a hospital, and he didn't want to go to one anyway because he knew that in those days they couldn't do much for him anyway. He remained in our home till the end. The last two weeks of his life, I would come home from school each day in the afternoon and find him passed out, slumped over his desk. At the time I didn't realize how close to death he really was, or maybe I just wouldn't allow myself to think it.

Each day when I got home, I would shake him and he would revive. The first of these days he told me of a dream he was having. He said he was standing at the edge of a small body of water separating him from a lush green area just on the other side of the water. The next day when I woke him he told me he was having the same dream again but this time there was a small group of people standing on the far bank. The next day he told me about the same dream again, but this time even more people were there and they were beckoning him to come over to them, calling his name. I remember the next day his surprised expression telling me he recognized the people as relatives that were all passed away. He was very surprised about it.

This went on for close to two weeks happening every day. Finally he told me that he thought that if he crossed over to them he wouldn't be able to come back to me. He felt it was very important to make me understand that what was happening him was real. At the time I just thought he was just having a dream. The same dream every day, until my aunt told me one morning that my father had died that night. Only then did I realize what he was trying to tell me. It was the most important thing he ever told me.

Now years later I related all this to my friend. He knew it wasn't a dream. He wasn't surprised about any of it. He said that's how it usually happens. The only thing unusual was the crowd. He said most people are lucky if two or three people show up, or any at all for that matter. He said the reason my father had this dream for so many days was because my father was resisting in order to stay with me, but nature has to take it's course.

My father was a believer in the Bible, and Heaven and Hell. This wasn't what he expected to happen.

I hope we'll all be so lucky when we go, but I don't think religion will have anything much to do with it.

[halcyondays]

My father was a Methodist Minister. He died when I was 12 years old at the age of 57. He had a birth defect in his heart that contributed he his early demise. In the last few weeks of life he became very Ill. We were too poor for a hospital, and he didn't want to go to one anyway because he knew that in those days they couldn't do much for him anyway. He remained in our home till the end. The last two weeks of his life, I would come home from school each day in the afternoon and find him passed out, slumped over his desk. At the time I didn't realize how close to death he really was, or maybe I just wouldn't allow myself to think it.

Each day when I got home, I would shake him and he would revive. The first of these days he told me of a dream he was having. He said he was standing at the edge of a small body of water separating him from a lush green area just on the other side of the water. The next day when I woke him he told me he was having the same dream again but this time there was a small group of people standing on the far bank. The next day he told me about the same dream again, but this time even more people were there and they were beckoning him to come over to them, calling his name. I remember the next day his surprised expression telling me he recognized the people as relatives that were all passed away. He was very surprised about it.

This went on for close to two weeks happening every day. Finally he told me that he thought that if he crossed over to them he wouldn't be able to come back to me. He felt it was very important to make me understand that what was happening him was real. At the time I just thought he was just having a dream. The same dream every day, until my aunt told me one morning that my father had died that night. Only then did I realize what he was trying to tell me. It was the most important thing he ever told me.

Now years later I related all this to my friend. He knew it wasn't a dream. He wasn't surprised about any of it. He said that's how it usually happens. The only thing unusual was the crowd. He said most people are lucky if two or three people show up, or any at all for that matter. He said the reason my father had this dream for so many days was because my father was resisting in order to stay with me, but nature has to take it's course.

My father was a believer in the Bible, and Heaven and Hell. This wasn't what he expected to happen.

I hope we'll all be so lucky when we go, but I don't think religion will have anything much to do with it.

That can all be explained by the mind. We dream things like that all the time. It is the mind creating all of that, it isn't real. We fool ourselves into thinking it is real. There is no way to prove that it is real.

[stephenszpak]

biknut wrote> The first of these days he told me of a dream he was having. He said he was standing at the edge of a small body of water separating him from a lush green area just on the other side of the water. The next day when I woke him he told me he was having the same dream again but this time there was a small group of people standing on the far bank. The next day he told me about the same dream again, but this time even more people were there and they were beckoning him to come over to them, calling his name. I remember the next day his surprised expression telling me he recognized the people as relatives that were all passed away. He was very surprised about it.

This went on for close to two weeks happening every day. Finally he told me that he thought that if he crossed over to them he wouldn't be able to come back to me. He felt it was very important to make me understand that what was happening him was real. At the time I just thought he was just having a dream. The same dream every day, until my aunt told me one morning that my father had died that night. Only then did I realize what he was trying to tell me. It was the most important thing he ever told me.

Stephen wrote> It is important to pay attention to one's dreams. Dreams and
visions are throughout the Bible.

There are dreams that everyone has. This doesn't mean they are useless at all.
Everyone has dreamt about being naked in public or having a written test to
take yet not having studied for it. One has to look at the specifics of the dream
to get clues about what it means to *you* in the present time. If you want to
pay attention to your dreams it is important to review them in your head and/or
write them down immediately upon arising.

Sometimes I look at my dream book, Cloud Nine by Sandra A. Thomson.

This is some from it:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from definition of "crossing" :

In many myths, crossing a bridge represents the passage of life to death and
into whatever is your conception of life beyond. This, or other crossings, would
be a typical kind of dream for someone who is terminally ill or close to death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if all your desire to communicate with the dead began here?

I have to leave you with this for now:

From Isaiah Chapter 8 below:

http://www.biblegate...20;&version=64;

When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people enquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

-Stephen

[biknut]

http://www.hansking.com/

Last night I listened to this guy on the radio. Hans Christian King. He's a direct-voice medium. I've never heard of him. He talked about the afterlife, and what it's like. I could tell by what he was saying that he knows some things about it. Most of what he said agreed with my friends description. He also explained why some people choose to stay here. Same explanation I heard from my friend. He said you have more friends on the other side than here. This is because there you have all your friends from every life you've lived. He said they try to help you here. My friend told me the same thing.

He was ask if there's a God and he answered, there's not some guy on a throne making decisions about everything that happens, but he thinks there is a plan going on. It didn't sound very religious, but he did say there are angels. He was ask, what about people that think when you die it's over? He said they're going to be in for a big surprise. He also said there are aliens there too, just like what my friend told me.

He admitted that he only knows a little compared to how much there is to know about it.

I think the religion that we're taught has a few things right, but mostly wrong, or distorted out of recognition. You can't really tell much about the afterlife from religion. The best thing is it won't matter.

[AaronCW]

Many these days say that humans are not a special form of life. They say
we are no more or less valuable than birds or fish etc. It's all goes back to
"Is there life after death?" "Does God exist?" "Does God have
real characteristics?" And other basic questions as well.

There is nothing wrong with having a fear of God. It is the beginning of wisdom.
It is also a deterrent as a Christian (at least to me).

-Stephen

The people who believe this are anything from atheists that have not discovered morality (or who reject it), to animal rights yahoos.

The value of human life, and the code of ethics/moralty which an individual adopts, has nothing to do with the question of whether God exists or not. Religion is not the origin of, or the precondition of, morality; a moral code consists of deciding what one's standard of good is, and by acting in accordance with that standard. A moral code may be rational or irrational. Moral codes derived from religion (based on altruism and doing God's will) comprise the vast majority of irrational moral codes which people (usually unthinkingly) accept.

As you might guess I would argue that fear of God is not the beginning of wisdom, it is quite the opposite.

[stephenszpak]

rasputin

rasputin wrote> The value of human life...

Stephen wrote> Evolution, that is evolution as a religion, teaches that
no form of life has meaning or value.

rasputin wrote> a moral code consists of deciding what one's standard of good is, and by acting in accordance with that standard. A moral code may be rational or irrational.

Stephen wrote> Therefore a "moral code" by this definition can be moral
or immoral. No one standard *can* exist according to this
definition.

-Stephen

[biknut]

[quote name='halcyondays That can all be explained by the mind. We dream things like that all the time. It is the mind creating all of that' date=' it isn't real. We fool ourselves into thinking it is real. There is no way to prove that it is real.[/quote']

Yes, that certainly is one explanation. Another one would be that it's real. I've never had a serial dream that unfolded for days. If I did It would get my attention.

[AaronCW]

rasputin

rasputin wrote> The value of human life...

Stephen wrote> Evolution, that is evolution as a religion, teaches that
                        no form of life has meaning or value.

rasputin wrote> a moral code consists of deciding what one's standard of good is, and by acting in accordance with that standard. A moral code may be rational or irrational.

Stephen wrote> Therefore a "moral code" by this definition can be moral
                        or immoral. No one standard *can* exist according to this
                        definition.

Evolution (that is, reality), pertains only to the metaphysical aspects of philosophy. It shows us that the world around us is as it appears to be, and that life, including human life, is natural, and did not require supernatural forces to come to be.

You are correct in observing that a moral code may be moral or immoral. As a Christian you would obviously find the moral code of a Hedonist to be immoral (which I personally also find to be immoral; nonetheless it is a moral code). My argument is that there can exist only one rational moral code that is consistent with the nature of human beings, and does not contradict the facts of reality.