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Stepping down


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76 replies to this topic

#61 olaf.larsson

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:04 AM

Could someone give a brief description of what has happend?

#62 doug123

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:20 AM

A whole bunch of posts (including mine, Eddie (centurion), Biopunk (Adam), and a couple other individuals) were deleted, edited, or moved without the original authors permission, so don't expect this thread to make any sense.

I guess check the moderator logs to see who did it? It doesn't really matter I guess except the continuity of this thread was interrupted by someone with moderation privileges. You can't blame me if makes no sense! I don't have any moderation privileges.

Hey, what's the definition of Institute?

#63 zoolander

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:37 AM

I apoligise if I spoke out of line re. John. I'm not privy to the PMs that John has sent re. the matter and hence do not have the full details.

Why would you start a post advising people in the general forum that you are stepping down because you had lost faith in one of the directors?

Just for the record, I'm not happy to see John step down either

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#64 zoolander

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:56 AM

Everyone is talking about these so called attacks from prometheus and all I see is a persistance and directness that not many people can seem to palate.

#65

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 04:14 AM

I nominated you because I think you are highly intelligent and capable of seeing alternative proposals without following dogma but there are times you appear to lose sight of the fact that your proposals are not only theoretical as well, they are untested.  The most productive outcome from debate has been improved models for testing hypotheses but while others are going ahead with that I ask you what studies you actually undertaking in this respect?

Laz, you forget that until MF got some funding to run Lyso and MitoSENS, SENS was completely theoretical and untested. Debate on it was welcome. It has only been in the last few months that they have initated some very rudimentary research programs. In respect to what I am involved in personally, without compromising confidentiality agreements, it relates to mesenchymal stem cell mediated interventions. It is fundamental research using mice as animal models and I expect 2 papers to come out of it by the middle of 2007. However, this research does not have anything to do with SENS and would not disprove anything that SENS has asserted. I could have investigated DNA repair but I followed my own advice and have focused on what is in my opinion the technology that can do the most good in the least amount of development time, nil genetic engineering and therefore minimal hurdles for clinical deployment.

As a leader you are being asked to be political, it goes with the territory and a little more diplomacy on your part would do you far better than improving your attack techniques IM less than HO.

I think you're also asking me not to call a spade a spade.

Can you step back from making this continuously a zero/sum game Harold?

Sure. If that is what the community wants, I'll quieten down.

#66 kevin

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 04:49 AM

Sure. If that is what the community wants, I'll quieten down.


Yes, please do take a breather and a chance to reflect a bit. I voted for you as a director, and for good reason, knowing that you are capable of creating a better turn out than this is turning out to be.

#67 Lazarus Long

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:04 AM

(Wolfram)
Could someone give a brief description of what has happend?


There have been two notable departures of members of leadership that feel they are being personally harassed as the method of debate. This thread began as one of their resignations and aside from some generalizations and deviations from the topic the discussion that ensued were members airing their opinions as to why.

Frankly I would feel that a more productive discussion would be how to remedy the problem. My criticisms of another member of leadership were made publicly to address the public nature of the debate but also to stop the growing rancor of the off topic discussion that was doing more to derail and be destructive than particularly constructive.


(nootropikamil)
A whole bunch of posts (including mine, Eddie (centurion), Biopunk (Adam), and a couple other individuals) were deleted, edited, or moved without the original authors permission, so don't expect this thread to make any sense.

I guess check the moderator logs to see who did it? It doesn't really matter I guess except the continuity of this thread was interrupted by someone with moderation privileges. You can't blame me if makes no sense! I don't have any moderation privileges.


Anyone is welcome to find and continue the discussions that were derailing the topic and no posts were deleted by me but I am the person that moved them into their own topics as I told you I would if the tangent being pursued continued.

This thread makes more sense now than before but if you want to see the posts they can be found here
Starting other groups

Imminist Grants

And according to the logs you deleted one of your own posts Adam because all I did was move your off topic discussion but the record shows that it was you who decided to try and win an argument by altering history perhaps thinking you can erase it and blame others. Why didn't you acknowledge the fact that you deleted your own posts when you blithely tossed out the innuendo that someone else did?

Here is the log record of your second to last post deletion, the other was in supplements and I am copy/pasting to protect your personal data.

nootropikamil *** Deleted a post *** General Forum *** Stepping down *** Nov 2 2006-17:16 


Please stop trying to continuous derail this discussion and try instead to be a part of the solution instead of the problem. Your attempt to shift blame and distract from the core issue by introducing other subjects is not helpful.

Now can we please get back on topic everyone? I will address Harold's much more important post next but since you ask Adam:

http://education.yah...entry/institute
Institute:

NOUN:

1. Something instituted, especially an authoritative rule or precedent.
institutes A digest of the principles or rudiments of a particular subject, especially a legal abstract.

2. An organization founded to promote a cause: a cancer research institute.

3.  a) An educational institution, especially one for the instruction of technical subjects.
     b) The building or buildings housing such an institution.

4. A usually short, intensive workshop or seminar on a specific subject.


The word is also a transitive verb that applies but the noun, in particular definitions #2 & #3a are what we are and sometimes definition #4 as well such as in our conference. I hope that answers your other off topic question.

#68 Lazarus Long

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:20 AM

Actually Harold I think I am going to address your articulate last post here in the thread you started that is really more germane to the issue since it is about your concerns and you are asking graciously for input there.

#69 doug123

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 07:36 AM

I don't like the term "give up;" however, I've withdrawn from my former position that I believe ImmInst can be an effective organization in any immediate time frame.  At this time, any individual who wants to be a "director" can be a director.  It's not like it's a competitive position or anything and you can't throw it on your resume without damaging your own credibility by appearing highly delusional.  And take a look at the so called "leaders" and their so called "accomplishments" -- sorry, but they are limited to Bruce's work.  The rest is all talk.  To be frank, I'd be too embarrassed to be on the BoD at ImmInst.


I make my morning computer attack before eating my breakfast (I probably should not), and think it was just past 1pm and I still hadn't left my apartment yet...perhaps I should be more specific about what I meant above -- the term Immortality, as much as I love the theoretical concept, if you were try to apply for a job and place your affiliation openly (ie, I am an advisor at the Immortality Institute director at, etc. etc.) on your application, I wouldn't expect to get the job.

I also received a personal message from Elrond attesting that ImmInst is not Bruce "the one man show." He said that Kevin runs MF, Caliban put the book together, and Brian Wonk works at 21st century medicine, etc. I don't think Elrond understands my position at all; and I guess that gives me the opportunity again to highlight again why people should not judge others or their positions using incomplete impressions over the Internet.

So, please let me clarify my position.

I never stated that Bruce is a "one man show." The MF is not ImmInst, so I don't really relate the two at all except the discussion here often focuses on their scientific modalities. Caliban may have made a large contribution and was the dude who made the book happen...

Brian Wonk maybe have successfully vitrified and reanimated whole organs. But that's really not ImmInst either.

However, as far as being a leader and promoting a teamwork atmosphere, at ImmInst, Bruce has been pretty much been the main dude thus far. Jeez, I hate to sound like I am kissing someone's ass -- but I'm not. I can back this up.

If I was to ask the "leadership" here the question: "why should anyone be lead by you?" -- I think it would get really quiet.

I don't even think Bruce would say anything. However, I would say that Bruce is the most effective at getting people to drop as much ego as possible so the group can achieve something. That may be because people admire him (and his wife, Susan) for putting this wonderful organization together and aren't afraid to follow his lead. I really don't know. But going back to losing his mother and still being able to make a film and organize a conference; that kind of stuff gets you in the heart. Anyways, it's obvious that Bruce's heart is in this thing, not so much his ego, so at least that's why I think he's a great leader.

#70 mitkat

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 11:57 PM

I don't like the term "give up;" however, I've withdrawn from my former position that I believe ImmInst can be an effective organization in any immediate time frame.  At this time, any individual who wants to be a "director" can be a director.  It's not like it's a competitive position or anything and you can't throw it on your resume without damaging your own credibility by appearing highly delusional.  And take a look at the so called "leaders" and their so called "accomplishments" -- sorry, but they are limited to Bruce's work.  The rest is all talk.  To be frank, I'd be too embarrassed to be on the BoD at ImmInst.


I make my morning computer attack before eating my breakfast (I probably should not), and think it was just past 1pm and I still hadn't left my apartment yet...perhaps I should be more specific about what I meant above -- the term Immortality, as much as I love the theoretical concept, if you were try to apply for a job and place your affiliation openly (ie, I am an advisor at the Immortality Institute director at, etc. etc.) on your application, I wouldn't expect to get the job.

I also received a personal message from Elrond attesting that ImmInst is not Bruce "the one man show." He said that Kevin runs MF, Caliban put the book together, and Brian Wonk works at 21st century medicine, etc. I don't think Elrond understands my position at all; and I guess that gives me the opportunity again to highlight again why people should not judge others or their positions using incomplete impressions over the Internet.

So, please let me clarify my position.

I never stated that Bruce is a "one man show." The MF is not ImmInst, so I don't really relate the two at all except the discussion here often focuses on their scientific modalities. Caliban may have made a large contribution and was the dude who made the book happen...

Brian Wonk maybe have successfully vitrified and reanimated whole organs. But that's really not ImmInst either.

However, as far as being a leader and promoting a teamwork atmosphere, at ImmInst, Bruce has been pretty much been the main dude thus far. Jeez, I hate to sound like I am kissing someone's ass -- but I'm not. I can back this up.

If I was to ask the "leadership" here the question: "why should anyone be lead by you?" -- I think it would get really quiet.

I don't even think Bruce would say anything. However, I would say that Bruce is the most effective at getting people to drop as much ego as possible so the group can achieve something. That may be because people admire him (and his wife, Susan) for putting this wonderful organization together and aren't afraid to follow his lead. I really don't know. But going back to losing his mother and still being able to make a film and organize a conference; that kind of stuff gets you in the heart. Anyways, it's obvious that Bruce's heart is in this thing, not so much his ego, so at least that's why I think he's a great leader.


You should indeed keep your attacks to a post-meal basis, Adam. You chastised a new member for mispelling Dukenukem's nickname, yet you call Dr. Brian Wowk "Brian Wonk". [lol]

#71 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 04:19 AM

I was reading that wondering if the wonk/wowk thing was some kind of insult, but then couldn't figure out what he was being insulted about. Odd.

#72 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 04:25 AM

With regards to the subject at hand (kinda) I would like to ask the following:

How much active research has been engaged in in the name of imminst or funded? Advocacy, education and discussion is great but research is the important thing. Another thing that is absolutely vital is standards of education for both advisors and directors and standards of communication with the public. This thread seems a major embarrassment to say the least.

#73

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 02:42 AM

With regards to the subject at hand (kinda) I would like to ask the following:

How much active research has been engaged in in the name of imminst or funded? Advocacy, education and discussion is great but research is the important thing. Another thing that is absolutely vital is standards of education for both advisors and directors and standards of communication with the public. This thread seems a major embarrassment to say the least.




On this subject I totally agree with you!! [thumb] ;)

#74 Karomesis

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 03:58 AM

There have been two notable departures of members of leadership that feel they are being personally harassed as the method of debate.


Not dissimilar to the ad hominem attacks I recieved as a result of my extremely strong anti-religious and libertine veiws. [mellow]

but the past is the past right? ;)

From what I can see, Harold and John have different veiws on fundamental issues which has led to the "abrasiveness" and other subjective nonsense being thrown around as if it had significant merit. While I would greatly relish looking back over 5 bazillion John/Harold threads and have nothing better to do with my time, I frankly feel that the the entire matter is a non issue and should be dismissed as opposing veiws of two highly intelligent men.

What shall we make of it then? I'll tell you what, let science decide. The disagreements on theory as well as implementation of existing practices should be left to the lab and peer reviewed papers, or perhaps I am mistaken on the simplicity of the enterprise?

Politics boor me ,and have no other purpose than to dupe the unsuspecting and uninformed. I come to this forum and listen to some top notch discussions because of the SCIENCE, not becasue my politics are better or inferior to yours, or becsue I want a childish flame war. Despite my lack of higher education, I attempt to make valid points and listen to what others have to say as long as they have a modicum of intellect and are willing to entertain veiws other than their own.If everyone here always agreed and never critisized the use of science or techniques we'd all be imminst zombies. I find it rather enriching for their to be drastically different veiws here and hope this continues well into the future for the benefit of all parties.

Please guys, let's get back to the issue at hand, progression and rational discourse over anti-aging technologies and leave the politics to the liars and fools.

#75 Brainbox

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 04:18 AM

Please guys, let's get back to the issue at hand, progression and rational discourse over anti-aging technologies and leave the politics to the liars and fools.

That's basicly ignoring the way our world is designed or evolved. Politics is a major part of our lives and regulates decision making. But it has a few side-effects. ;)

#76 John Schloendorn

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:52 AM

I hate to be nagging, but the title page still mentions me as "ImmInst advior", in the entry with the soil samples. Can someone please remove the entry, or replace my affiliation by "Methuselah Foundation volunteer".

#77 Omnido

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:49 PM

/sigh

This and other associated reasons which I do not care to repeat (or provide categorical evidence for) have all happened before.

Once upon a time, I too was an Advisor.
I stepped down as well, due to what I identified as a growing "Seed" of decoherence; an inevitable counterproductive clash of theory, insubstantial opinion(s), and excessive repetition.

While Bruce and Kenneth understand (at least I hope they do) my reasons for doing so, it was a decision I did not come to lightly.

John, I havent had the time or the compulsion to review all your submitted material here, but the fact that the very first thing I see upon visiting back here is this, depresses me.

Whenever I do chance to return here, I always do a search on Laz's latest posts.
Seeing this one appear on the list was dissapointing, but not unexpected.

I wish you well with your continued efforts.




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