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New theory of Gravity


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#1 biknut

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Posted 25 December 2006 - 10:54 PM


Scotland is the centre of a gravity revolution
IAN JOHNSTON

A SHOCKWAVE tore through the space-time continuum that is the global astronomical community this week with the news that researchers at St Andrews University have apparently rewritten the laws of physics.

For one of the basic tenets of astronomy - the universal force of gravity - is now under serious challenge from a radical, competing theory which in the words of one observer threatens to "open Pandora's Box".

Dr HongSheng Zhao, of St Andrews, and his Belgian collaborator Dr Benoit Famaey believe that gravity actually changes depending on where it is in the universe, and have thrown down a challenge for their doubters to prove them wrong.

Rather than exerting a uniform pull that gradually reduces as an object gets further away, Dr Zhao and supporters of a controversial theory developed in the 1980s by the physicist Moti Milgrom believe gravity is "boosted" in the outer reaches of galaxy.

This can be used to explain why stars at the ends of the spiral arms of galaxies do not break free and fly off into space.

But the idea of "flexi-gravity" runs contrary to the established theory that mysterious "dark matter" - a mass of objects that cannot be seen by astronomers - holds the stars together by providing the mass to create the requisite amount of gravity. According to critics, the new theory should not even be given house room by the great minds of astronomy as it runs so contrary to established thinking.

The long-lived and well- respected theories of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein would have to be thrown out the window, they protest.

Despite these claims Dr Zhao and Dr Famaey worked on the Milgrom theory - which was largely dismissed in the 1980s but recently refined in a manner that brought it back to international attention - and have now defined how gravity changes in a new formula.

This makes the extra mass provided by dark matter, which Dr Zhao describes as "an assumption", unnecessary for there to be the kind of gravity that keeps galaxies together. "It is a modification to the law of gravity as prescribed by Newton and Einstein," he said.

Newtonian physics can be used to predict the movement of the planets successfully, but the problem comes when it is used to calculate the movement of stars. Newton's formula was that the gravitational force of an object was equal to the gravitational constant multiplied by its mass and then divided by distance squared. The further away something is from the source of the gravity, the less powerful it is. At the edges of the universe, the force is so weak it is known as "nano-gravity".

Dr Zhao said: "If you use Newton's theory, you will find something very odd. The theory predicts the stars should be flying out of the galaxy, but in reality they are staying inside. Because people liked Newton so much, they put in dark matter in galaxies to keep the stars inside."

Where others add in extra mass to galaxies to hold them together, he and Dr Famaey were gripped by the idea that the gravitational constant could be "boosted".

"But how much do you want to boost it by? How do you put in a boost factor in a way that keeps the theory beautiful. It's a tricky thing," Dr Zhao said.

"Our aim was to put in the right amount of boost and still keep its intrinsic beauty... beauty meaning it doesn't violate fundamental principles.

"You need a large boost at the outskirts of the galaxy but you don't need that near the sun."

This required a gravitational constant that was anything but, and actually changed depending on where it was in the universe. This presented a fundamental problem. "There cannot be many laws of gravity. There has to be only one function that works," he added.

"By trial and error, only one set of functions comes out to be both simple and explain the data. This formula explains it very well and does it sort of effortlessly.

Everything is fixed and it fits.

"We have made the theory complete, connected the loose pieces of theory by one nice formula, and we think this formula has deep physics behind it. This theory is now fully specified so we can check it now."

This is the crucial part of any scientific theory: if it is capable of being tested and therefore falsified, it can be taken seriously. If scientists fail to knock it down, the theory gains credibility.

The new formula will be debated at a meeting at Edinburgh's Royal Observatory in April, when Dr Zhao and Dr Famaey, of the Free University of Brussels, will demonstrate their new formula on dark matter and gravity to an audience of experts from ten countries. They can expect a stormy ride.

"When people say 96 per cent of the universe is dark, that's an assumption," Dr Zhao said. "We don't need to introduce huge amounts of dark matter to explain the astronomical phenomena.

"The theory doesn't exclude dark matter. It just turns out if you do this, there is no real need for dark matter." He added that dark matter was still present but was simply not dense enough to affect a galaxy.

"It has an effect on the universe as a whole, but not on galaxies," he said.

However, Professor George Efstathiou, director of the Institute of Astronomy at Cambridge University, was unimpressed. "The physics of general relativity is a consequence of deep-rooted principles in physics. It's not something you can negotiate," he said.

"If you tinker with Newton's laws you are giving up these deep-rooted principles. You are also giving up general relativity. I wouldn't call it a theory. You cannot consider it on anything like an equal footing with general relativity."

Dr David Bacon, an advanced fellow at Edinburgh Royal Observatory, said he would have agreed with Prof Efstathiou until two years ago, when the physicist Jacob Bekenstein refined the Milgrom theory. "I think there has been a sea change with Bekenstein," Dr Bacon said.

"What HongSheng Zhao has done is refine Bekenstein's theory and it is now a good fit to some of the evidence - the evidence from the motion of stars. It is certainly very intriguing work."

http://news.scotsman...fm?id=253972006

#2 jdog

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 01:51 AM

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. - Unknown

#3 xanadu

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 07:06 PM

The proponents of this theory better be prepared to be viciously attacked for their views. People do not like having their assumptions messed with. I too think that there is a major flaw in the currently accepted cosmological model and theories thereof. My own theory is that there is a weak gravitational force that operates over great distances and does not fall off as the square of the distance but is linear or possibly does not fall off at all. Rather than having to boost the regular gravitational force, you would simply factor in the weak force. It would also explain the excessive amounts of red shift observed and do away with FTL inflation and the spontaneous creation of new space required by the current theories.

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#4 Normal Dan

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 07:46 PM

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. - Unknown


It is important to remember, all falsities pass through at least the first two stages. It isn't until the final stage we can easily distinguish between the two. Even then, it's iffy at best.

#5 jaydfox

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 08:23 PM

yes, just because an idea passes through the first and second stages, that does not mean we can say that it will pass through the third. A lot of ideas pass through the first two, then return to the first stage because it becomes self-evident that the ideas are not truths.

The proponents of this theory better be prepared to be viciously attacked for their views. People do not like having their assumptions messed with. I too think that there is a major flaw in the currently accepted cosmological model and theories thereof. My own theory is that there is a weak gravitational force that operates over great distances and does not fall off as the square of the distance but is linear or possibly does not fall off at all. Rather than having to boost the regular gravitational force, you would simply factor in the weak force. It would also explain the excessive amounts of red shift observed and do away with FTL inflation and the spontaneous creation of new space required by the current theories.

A force that doesn't fall off at all wouldn't be a very useful force for accounting for any of the observed features of the universe. A force that falls off linearly might be interesting, but it wouldn't be very good replacement for dark matter for accounting for galactic structure, because superclusters in the nearest few hundred million to a few billion light-years would have far more influence on galactic structure than is presently observed.

I'm not saying I don't think there might be alternative theories of gravity that make dark matter an unnecessary addition to cosmology. Just pointing out potential flaws in this particular hypothesis.

By the way, I have never really been a big "believer" in dark matter (or dark energy for that matter), but I did find this study particularly compelling as evidence for dark matter:
http://cosmicvarianc...-matter-exists/

I'm not a cosmologist, so my opinions are only opinions on the matter. I wouldn't call myself an "expert" in cosmology by any stretch, so there are a lot of the more esoteric ideas and theories that I don't understand and don't have time to learn more about, so I try to shy away from discussing them. I stick to the stuff I do understand, for the most part.

#6 jaydfox

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 08:24 PM

do away with FTL inflation and the spontaneous creation of new space required by the current theories

By the way, what is "FTL inflation"? And I'm not quite sure I follow what you mean by "spontaneous creation of new space", either.

The proponents of this theory better be prepared to be viciously attacked for their views.

If you mean they had better be prepared to vigorously defend their theory and provide a rationale for why it satisfies the basic test of occam's razor, then yes, you're right. That's how science works, when it's working properly.

#7 stephenszpak

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 04:21 PM

"there are a lot of the more esoteric ideas and theories that I don't understand and don't have time to learn more about"

This sound like me. I really get into all this wierd physics stuff, but I don't
understand a lot of it. I also think physicists don't understand reality at a
fundamental level. Isn't uncertainty ignorance? Quantum mechanics states
that there *must* be uncertainty.

No offense about jaydfox's occam's razor comment. I came across this though:

We humans may believe Occam's razor----which holds that the best theories
are the simplest----because these are the only theories our puny brains can
comprehend.

(The End of Science by John Horgan page 234)

-Stephen

#8 DukeNukem

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 04:28 PM

FTL = faster than light

If I had to place a bet, string theory and many of these others that are commonly discussed, are barking up the wrong tree. I suspect we're still like the blind men trying to figure out that we're standing next to an elephant.
http://www.noogenesi...n_elephant.html

#9 stephenszpak

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 04:40 PM

String theory is just math. It will probably always remain in
the math realm.

Who's going to pay for this thing to be built? :::

=================================================

To probe the realm superstrings are thought to inhabit,
physicists would have to builld a particle accelerator 1,000
light-years around. (The entire solar system is only one light-*day*
around.) And not even an accelerator that size could allow us to see
the extra dimensions where superstrings dance.

The End of Science page 62

-Stephen

#10 biknut

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 04:48 PM

String theory seems to unravel

http://www.philly.co...=inquirer_books

The Trouble With Physics
The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next
By Lee Smolin
Houghton Mifflin. 416 pp. $26

Not Even Wrong
The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law
By Peter Woit
Basic Books, 304 pp. $26


I have a feeling the same kind of books will be coming out about global warming someday soon.

#11 stephenszpak

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 06:30 PM

From link by biknut:

I remain content to let science run its course. Physics has hit an uncommonly long dry spell, but history has a way of putting such periods into perspective...He compared the present state of string theory with the puzzling discoveries of radioactivity in 1896, which was not fully understood until quantum mechanics was well developed. Physicists "were missing something absolutely fundamental" at the time of the first Solvay Conference, he noted. "We are missing perhaps something as profound as they were back then."... (from link)

The uncertainty at the heart of quantum mechanics is still around. When
did quantum mechanics start, 70 or 140 years ago? (S.S.)

=================================================

The neutron was not discovered until 1932 so it is against this background that we trace the beginnings of quantum theory back to 1859.

http://www-groups.dc...age_begins.html

===================================================



We don't know if string theory is right, wrong, or Not Even Wrong, and it looks as if we will need another decade or two to find out. (from link)

Everybodys an optimist (S.S.)

-Stephen

#12 xanadu

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 07:18 PM

My theory is that there is a weak gravitational force similar to the strong force but with different properties. It does not seem to affect nearby objects or only so faintly that we can't measure it right now. It operates over great distances and affects space itself as well as attracting matter. It will cause the universe to stop expanding and to reverse, eventually leading to a big crunch. The crunch then becomes another big bang and the cycle repeats.

I don't think the weak gravitational force (WG) is enough to eliminate the need for dark matter. WG acts over distance and would not keep stars from flying away from galaxies. WG may influence galactic formations and has a pivitol role on a universe wide scale. We will probably find that dark matter is composed of some ordinary matter, some dark holes and perhaps other things yet to find. WG will only negate the need for a small portion of that.

One of the more interesting things about WG is that it affects red shift over long distances. Over the space of a few light years it's effect is so small that not even the most sensitive instruments could detect it. Over 1000+ light years it begins to show up and over larger distances it has a major effect. This will throw off our calculations of not only speeds but also distances and other assumptions. The expansion of the universe will turn out to be much less than thought and will be found to be slowing. I don't think expansion has stopped yet but that remains to be seen.

#13 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 07:20 PM

and this weak gravity theory is based on what exactly?

#14 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 07:25 PM

and could you share what the expected effects would be, providing specific equations and predictions based on these so that they could be confirmed or denied.

#15 jaydfox

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 08:15 PM

do away with FTL inflation and the spontaneous creation of new space required by the current theories

By the way, what is "FTL inflation"? And I'm not quite sure I follow what you mean by "spontaneous creation of new space", either.

FTL = faster than light

I know what FTL is, but what is "FTL inflation"? I'm asking this to xanadu.

#16 jaydfox

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 08:15 PM

Dang, that's another instance of the quote bug. On the bright side, it gives me something to fix.

#17 xanadu

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 08:53 PM

elrond, the specific effects are like those I outlined above. It was discovered, as many things were, by postulating what would explain certain anomalies in the observed universe. Many people believe in dark energy with even less to go on. The weak gravitational force neatly solves a number of conundrums facing us and does it without invoking any unicorns for example, faster than light expansion, new space being created and so on. I have not calculated exactly how strong it is and have not seen enough data to know how fast it falls off with distance or if it indeed diminishes at all. It seems that every particle exerts a force on every other particle that exists. We are all connected after all.

#18 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 08:59 PM

could you outline mathmatically how it does this? Simply stating that it would solve all these problems simutaneously is not enough. So would the theory of intelligent falling http://www.theonion....tent/node/39512

#19 stephenszpak

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 09:12 PM

xanadu wrote> It seems that every particle exerts a force on every other particle that exists.

Stephen wrote> You mean like quantum entanglement?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia....um_entanglement

Quantum entanglement is a quantum mechanical phenomenon in which the quantum states of two or more objects have to be described with reference to each other, even though the individual objects may be spatially separated.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current physical theories incorporate the upper limit on propagation of interaction as one of their basic building blocks, hence ruling out instantaneous action-at-a-distance. While a naïve interpretation of quantum mechanics appears to imply the ability to send signals faster than the speed of light, careful reasoning about these cases shows that no physical signals are actually being sent. Einstein coined the term "spooky action at a distance" to describe these situations, which exhibit quantum entanglement. Relativistic quantum field theory requires interactions to propagate at less than the speed of light, so quantum entanglement cannot be used for faster-than-light-speed propagation of matter, energy, or information.


However, it must be understood that a change to one entangled particle does indeed affect the other instantaneously,



but this is only known after the experiment is performed and notes are compared, therefore there is no way to actually send information faster than the speed of light.

http://en.wikipedia....d...e_(physics)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was reading recently about faster than light communication. {Though
that would be way off topic. }I don't know if the experiments involved were
faulty or whatever. (S.S.)

-Stephen

#20 xanadu

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 10:27 PM

Stephen, that's interesting. Yes, I'd heard of that theory but question it as well as the assumption that if it did work no info could be transmitted using it. But that's a side issue. My theory does not require any such entanglement. It operates on all matter. I don't know if it propagates FTL or not. (for jay, that means faster than light).

elrond, what are the calculations for dark energy that so many people seem to believe in? Ancient alchemists had calculations for philostogen, caloric and other mythical substances.

#21 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 10:39 PM

elrond, what are the calculations for dark energy that so many people seem to believe in? Ancient alchemists had calculations for philostogen, caloric and other mythical substances.


wow. You've got to be kidding me. Do you have a straw man factory?

So basically you are pulling this theory of yours entirely out of your ass and just saying that it would explain all those things without having any support at all. Not even mathmatical support.

There are plenty of calculations showing where dark energy would fit, not to mention, here's the kicker, actually observational evidence showing the expansion rate of the universe is accelerating. What do you have? It's a valid question.

#22 stephenszpak

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 10:49 PM

xanadu

Maybe 'conjecture', or some other word, is better than saying 'theory'.

-Stephen

#23 xanadu

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 06:34 PM

Are we moving already into the ad hominem phase of the debate? I thought maybe the actual discussion would last longer than that. BTW, people should look up the meaning of "straw man argument". I see that term misused so often.

My theory explains the anomalous observations that have been misinterpreted as showing the expansion to be accelerating. It explains red shift and the erroneous assumptions derived from it as well as providing a theory of the universe's evolution and eventual fate. The numbers and other small details will be filled in later. I think I may be done here unless someone actually wants to discuss it as opposed to carrying out an attack.

#24 jaydfox

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 06:48 PM

faster than light expansion, new space being created and so on

Xanadu, explain what faster than light expansion is. It's a valid question. I know what FTL travel is, FTL communication, etc. But what exactly do you mean by FTL expansion.

I don't know if it propagates FTL or not. (for jay, that means faster than light).

That's an ad hominem attack, and I won't tolerate many of them.

#25 Centurion

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 06:56 PM

Surely if FTL expansion took place the universe would appear (from our perspective) to grow in jolts? Doesnt make much sense....

#26 xanadu

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 10:10 PM

centurion, no it doesn't make much sense to me either. Here are some links that attempt to explain it

http://curious.astro....php?number=387
http://www.faqs.org/.../section-9.html

People believe the universe is expanding ftl based in large part on red shift data and certain assumptions that go along with it.




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