Aug 2 Chat Log: <BJKlein> Official Chat Starts Now:
<caliban> oh well... lets get started... over to you
<BJKlein> Let's start with the first of 3 questions.
<John_Doe> hello again
<BJKlein> Are there better terms than the following?
<BJKlein> 1. Free Member
<BJKlein> 2. Full Member
<BJKlein> 3. Inner Circle Forum
<Guest> HI ALL
<Sat> expand on what each means please.
<BJKlein> welcome Guest, John_Doe please reference:
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <Jace> i don't understand. if full and inner are the same, why do we searching for separate names?
<BJKlein> Sat: please see
http://www.imminst.org/join/join5.php<Jace> <are>
<Sat> k
<localroger> "Inner circle" conjures up images of alchemists teasing ancient texts as they throw shit in a circle to summon a demon. Or maybe it's just me.
<John_Doe> reference?
<celindra> I like Basic Member over Free
<Utnapishtim> I agree with celindra
<Jace> i like "simpleton"... gives incentive
* caliban agrees with celindra
<localroger> I like "Basic" too.
<BJKlein> Jace, well it's not 'exactly' the same sorry... Full Members are paid members.. Inner is the Forum to which Full Members gain access
<BJKlein> Basic does sound good
<Jace> i understand now, thank you
<Jace> i like basic
<caliban> thats settled then... next
<BJKlein> yep great.. any problem with Full?
<BJKlein> or Inner?
<localroger> Inner is a real problem, suggesting a secret cabal type of thing
<BJKlein> alternative suggestions?
<Utnapishtim> Premium membership doesn't sound bad either
<localroger> "Vested"? Maybe too snooty.
<localroger> Premium?
<celindra> ImmInst Council?
<John_Doe> I am confused? What should I be reading?
<localroger> Council --> I like that.
<caliban> Member Forum
<BJKlein> John_Doe:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints<localroger> Like a legislature, representative but not occult.
<Utnapishtim> premium also goes nicely with basic
<Kissinger> executive council
<Kissinger> nah, thats too corporate
<localroger> No, I'm thinking just "Council Member."
<BJKlein> well, there may be a prob. with overlap with Advisor and Director naming
<localroger> Oh right, is it incorporated?
<BJKlein> yes 502c3
<John_Doe> My opinion: the conference registration fee should pay for the conference, not any subscription fees.
<localroger> 'K, that might set some off-limits on "council."
<celindra> YOu might just call it the Restricted Forum or something
<celindra> Or Private Forum
<localroger> I'd just go with "Premiium."
<BJKlein> yikes sorry 501c3
<Utnapishtim> I think premium is nice and neutral
* caliban does not dislike "council" as this might indeed be its function
<Utnapishtim> and easily distinguished from basic
<Utnapishtim> Premium member + premium forum
<localroger> Yes, caliban, but we shouldn't create confusion with the articles of incorporation.
* BJKlein is on the fence on Premium vs Full
<celindra> Brevity
<Kissinger> Full and Basic
<BJKlein> welcome chestnut!!!
<caliban> Full - premium implies something that it is not
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <celindra> Premium goes with coffee and porn sites
<chestnut>
hola BJ and everyone..
<localroger> celindra: eek, you're right.
<Kissinger> lol
<celindra> full and bsic are net standards, we should stick with em
<celindra> basic*
<localroger> How about "Volunteer" or something similar? Indicating that one takes greater responsibility without much reward.
<Utnapishtim> Volunteer normally implies giving up ime not money as is the case here
<Utnapishtim> time
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim agreed
<localroger> Well the implication is that in exchange for the extra money one gets influence, which translates to time and thought if it's used right.
<caliban> a member is a member without having to be a volunteer
<Guest> I am trying to chat for first time , am having hard time to find chat rooms
<Kissinger> too confusing, we need to keep it simple
<BJKlein> welcome Guest
<Guest> Thanks
<localroger> How about "Extended?"
<chestnut> Guest welcome to the chat!
<caliban> i think the issue about how to call a member is settled, namely: member or "full member" ?
<haploid> localroger: that line of thought is likely to be completely lost on the anticapitalists, who likely represent the majority of said members.
<Guest> I wonder why I am being called as 'guest'/ my id here is 'super8'
<BJKlein> Guest type /nick super8
<caliban> the current issue is how to call the restricted members forum
<localroger> Well it seems likely that this is about to devolve into phallic jokes so it's not going to be settled at the moment.
<BJKlein> caliban, yes i think Basic and Full will probably work.. if one has further suggestions please post them to the forum topic for futher consideration
<celindra> Full and Basic ... moving on
<Kissinger> yep
<caliban> the current issue is how to call the restricted members forum
* caliban liked council or "members forum"
<Jace> free > nascent member :: trying to equate names with stages of tech, but couldn't come up w/ others :|
<celindra> Brevity calls for "Full Members Forum"
<BJKlein> celindra, good point
<BJKlein> would bypass the other naming questions
<localroger> Yeah, that sounds good celindra. "Full" and then "Full w/forum priv."
* caliban accepts but will only call full members members
<caliban> "Full members forum" it is then
<BJKlein> Basic - Full - Full Member Forum... ok
<Kissinger> simple is good
<Jace> ok
<celindra> Just to clrafiy for all, all paid members get forum access right?
<celindra> clarify*
<celindra> We only have two levels
<Guest1> is this one a basic?
<BJKlein> celindra right..
<BJKlein> there is two levels.. Basic = Free
<BJKlein> Full = Paid
<BJKlein> Free have access to all forums except Full Member Forum
<Guest1> gotccha
<caliban> everybody gets forum access- but only Full membes have acces to the council (Full Members Forum)
<BJKlein> ok.. let's move on to benefits..
<BJKlein> What should Full Members get?
<haploid> Yes - and it only required 20 minutes to make that decision. Giving credence once again to the observation that successful movements are never democracies.
<caliban> now mindful of the time I would like to postpone the next point
<caliban>
http://www.imminst.org/join/join5.php<celindra> Physical items are always nice, BJ
<celindra> Shirts, mailings, whatever
<caliban> as BJ said-- any further suggestions?
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <chestnut> yes good point celindra...
hence the book
<caliban> no further suggestions, I take it?
<BJKlein> a magazine would be a nice long term goal..
<celindra> Or at least a glossy newsletter
<BJKlein> but for now.. the intro packet is the only mailing
<celindra> That's good. Not much else needed.
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <caliban> well then.. moving on?
<chestnut> yup
<BJKlein> ready for next point...
<BJKlein> How much to charge for subscription?
<BJKlein> 1. Monthly
<BJKlein> 2. Student
<BJKlein> 3. Employed
<BJKlein>
http://imminst.org/join/join_7.php<BJKlein> 4. Lifetime Member
<localroger> Q. Where does the money go?
<BJKlein> for a yearly conference
<Kissinger> monthly, with the option to go annually with a slight discount, very slight
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <Mind> I like the slight discount for yearly lump sum
<BJKlein> numbers?
<celindra> $5.00 monthly, employed
<caliban> too much
<Mind> Monthly: 10
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <Mind> Monthly 10 employed
<BJKlein> heh Mind your consistant
<celindra> I pay $5.00 a month just to play chess
<BJKlein> celindra on yahoo?
<celindra> ON USChessLive
<celindra> Fark also charges $5 a month
<Kissinger> celindra we should play
<Gewis> so, if I'm a bum, unemployed, can I be a member for free?
<Mind> 8 monthly
<Mind> employed
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <BJKlein> Gewis welcome
<hkhenson> wassail
<BJKlein> Keith!
<Hugh_Bristic> Hey Utna! How ya doin? Haven't heard from you in a while.
<localroger> So how many potential members (realistically) does Imminst have in the near term? In other words, what is the potential funding base?
<Utnapishtim> doing great Hugh!
<Utnapishtim> yourself?
<BJKlein> localroger range 5 - 50
<caliban> I did not see this as a tool for raising money, but merely as a tool of acknowledging the membership. I feel this separation is necessary, for reasons of democratic decision making and also to gain an insight into who and how many “we” actually are. What- if any- the exact membership fees are to be is of secondary importance. My personal view is that they should be nominal!
<BJKlein> caliban numbers?
<Gewis> You could acknowledge membership by other means than asking for money.
<localroger> Caliban, that's fine, but generously then we're talking about $500. That is not going to fund a yearly conference.
<Gewis> But if funding is needed, it makes sense.
<caliban> 20 $ a year
<caliban> funding needs to be sought via other venues
<Mind> So Caliban...you are saying that the amount of money we could raise through montly fees is not enough to do anything with so it should be used more as a declination between motivated members and unmotivated members
<BJKlein> Gewis... one can be a free member and have access to all forums except the Full Member forum
<localroger> OK, $1,000, which is about what I have received from voluntary donations for my novel.
<hkhenson> L5 Society grew to 10,000 on low dues and a lot of work
<BJKlein> localroger link to novel?
<hkhenson> and the paper printers got most of it.
<localroger>
http://www.kuro5hin....prime-intellect<hkhenson> plus the post office
<Gewis> 20 dollars a year sounds reasonable...
<BJKlein> Gewis for student?
<caliban> yes Mind
<Mind> 500 would be enough for a small conference among memebrs
<Gewis> Which works out to 1.67 a month.
<hkhenson> gewis only if the members do all the membership maintence
<Gewis> I would be a student, though, as I am a student.
<celindra> Let's figure a base monthly for employed folks ....
<caliban> 20 Student, 40 others?
<Kissinger> how about $5 month $50 for the year
<localroger> We are talking about trying to jump-start something comparable to the Apollo Moon program. $100,000 is less than nothing in that context, although that could *begin* to fund a conference.
<Mind> 5.00 month employed...thats 60 per year
<hkhenson> first, what is the point of membership? L5 had a goal of getting into space and disbanding.
<localroger> For reference, Allstate just paid me $31,000 for the tree that fell on my house, and it wasn't enough.
<hkhenson> even open ended goals are ok
<BJKlein> hmm.. how about 19.95 student unemployed 39.95 employed developed world and 4.95 monthly ?
<Jace> the point of membership is to gain stake
<Kissinger> we are trying to establish a basic payment system
<Gewis> The question should merely be based on what the creators think that membership in the organization is worth, of course, and if membership is to be worth anything, it can't just be token.
<celindra> Good, BJ
<BJKlein> are the .95 bad?
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> or just round numbers/
<Kissinger> no
<Mind> round numbers
<localroger> .95 suggest salesmanship
<Kissinger> 95 look more professional
<BJKlein> i hear 2 for round numbers...
<celindra> PayPal is taking a fee rememebr
<Mind> aaccckk
<BJKlein> even now..
<BJKlein> 2 to 2..
<Mind> I'll just send a chack
<hkhenson> I suggest making the collection entirely electronic whatever the amount
<Mind> check
<Kissinger> thats right paypal will take a percentage
<chestnut> round numbers better
<caliban> BK- you mean an *additional* 4.95 monthly?
<Kissinger> so you can forget about even numbers
<localroger> Here is a simple question. The money isn't going to be enough for a conference, and it isn't going to be enough to fund research, so where will it go?
<Gewis> Mind, will you pay for my membership?
<BJKlein> Mind,, paypay makes it easier.. to maintain...
<celindra> Round 'em -- paypal will take about 3%
<Mind> what membership GEWIS?
<BJKlein> caliban.. no just a trial or member monthly 4.95
<hkhenson> but the main point is what are you after doing?
<hkhenson> lobbying for the gov to spend money?
<caliban> oh ok, that is fine
<BJKlein> 3 round 2 for .95
<Kissinger> if someone cant afford it, why dont we have them do some kind of service for their keep
* celindra has funded an 8 team baseball league on $200 dollars -- $500 is enough for a conference
<Gewis> Paying monthly is 50 percent more under Bruce's plan than a yearly fee...
<hkhenson> keeping up the web service?
<Gewis> That's quite the disincentive to pay monthly.
<BJKlein> Kissinger it needs to fair
<hkhenson> and chat?
<BJKlein> Gewis.. 3.95?
<Kissinger> yeah thats true
<BJKlein> instead of 4.95?
<Kissinger> im in favor of 5 monthly or 50 for the year
<Kissinger> i think that is nice and simple
<Mind> Is 5.00 too much for anyone here tonight?
<localroger> Celindra, there's a difference between a local sports league and a thing like this where people must travel. Travel costs money, lots of it on this scale. Hotels, conference rooms, etc. even if all the participants come for free the expenses will be $20,000-$50,000 if it's worth doing at all.
<Jace> no
* caliban is not enthalled by the idea of the "trial membership" at all
<BJKlein> localroger i think your right..
<BJKlein> that's a general goal...
<Gewis> I'd pay 5.00 for a dating service, but Jace is unavailable, and there aren't any other eligible females I'm aware of.
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read:
http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints <hkhenson> local, there are ways to parasite on other conferences
<BJKlein> more would be much better..
<hkhenson> L5 did that for years.
<Mind> is $5 too much for anyone here tonight (per month)
<Gewis> I think 30 dollars a year sounds good.
<Jace> not cool gewis
<Gewis> Which is 2.50 per month.
<BJKlein> until we get there we'll push back the conference date each year
<celindra> $5 or under is good
<caliban> ok - we agree with BJ's figures then?
<localroger> HKH, I'd need to see that spelt out, because I just don't see a place where the money can be put in the amount that will be available that will do any good.
<hkhenson> we get a substantial fraction of what conferences are for right here
<Mind> I like 5/per month 50/per year
<BJKlein> ONE LAST VOTE: ROUND or .95 please
<Mind> round
<celindra> ROUND
<hkhenson> round
<localroger> ROUND
<BJKlein> wow
<bk_2112> round
<Kissinger> you can make it round but the paypal will screw it up anyway
<BJKlein> ok.. well round then thanks
<Gewis> round
<chestnut> round
* caliban despairs
<hkhenson> local, L5 defeated the moon treaty when under a thousand people contributed.
<BJKlein> 20 student 50 employ and 5 month?
<Mind> good
<chestnut> good
<caliban> good
<Jace> round doesn't elicit sophistication
<Gewis> Wow.
<Mind> thats 20 student/year right?
<BJKlein> yes
<Gewis> Jace, fake sophistication is bad.
<celindra> Good
<BJKlein> ok last one..
<hkhenson> bj, if you make the paypal transfer automatic some people might pay more on a per month basis
<BJKlein> Lifetime Membership one time donation...
<localroger> Round is honest.
<Gewis> If we're going to be sophisticated, then we need a genuine cost-benefit analysis which pulls up a number like 4.32 per month.
<hkhenson> but the main point is still, what are you trying to do?
<Utnapishtim> I think if you are asking $50 a year you need to have a clear idea of what you are going to do with this money
<BJKlein> How Much to Become A LifeTime Member?
<celindra> $250 / lifetime
<celindra> or $500
<Kissinger> gewis, you have don't understand marketing do you?
<Mind> a conference Utna
<celindra> $250 is 5 years worth
<localroger> Beware lifetime memberships, they killed many an avicultural society. Little history I know courtesy of GF.
<hkhenson> conferences are just fun, you get entirely stoned on dopamine from all the talking/attention
<Mind> I don't like the lifetime idea
<chestnut> $500 or more if it is for life...i think
<BJKlein> hkhenson
<Mind> we are trying to be immortal afterall
<caliban> $300 per 1000 years... no lifetime membership
<Gewis> Kissinger, it was just a reference to Jace's comment about sophistication, and how rounding makes sense rather than trying to be sophisticated, when we aren't.
<BJKlein> Mind.. noted
<localroger> AOL is still kowtowing to people from the C/64 group they bought who had lifetime memberships.
<hkhenson> chestnut, lifetime should go into an account and the interest yeild pay about the same
<hkhenson> less the chance the organization will go bust
<hkhenson> another group you might look alcor
<BJKlein> good idea
<hkhenson> look at is
<celindra> NRA charges $750 for life, $125 for 5 years
<chestnut> hkhenson: for sure
<localroger> HKH yes, the avicultural society guy said exactly the same thing around 1985. "There are geezers hanging on who joined in 1940" was a memorable line.
<Mind> Utna...I think it is a good idea to start collecting fees even if we don't have a clear plan how to use the money. It establishes a greater bond to the insitute and then when we do have a use for the money it is ready to go
<hkhenson> now there is an an organization with a clear goal
<hkhenson> they want to get all those folks out of suspension and back on the street
<localroger> For my part, I would be willing to establish a greater bond with the institute if I didn't suspect somebody would be using my dues to buy beer.
<BJKlein> again: the money will go to fund a conference in hopefully 2005 or later
<caliban> hkhenson : just for you again: I did not see this as a tool for raising money, but merely as a tool of acknowledging the membership. I feel this separation is necessary, for reasons of democratic decision making and also to gain an insight into who and how many *we* actually are. What- if any- the exact membership fees are to be is of secondary importance. My personal view is that they should be nominal
<Kissinger> our goals and how we spend our resources should be voted on democratically with veto power by the directors and BJ
* caliban agrees with Kissinger
<Mind> voted on amongst paying members or all
<Mind> ??
* celindra asks -- What is the issue on the table?
<Mind> How much to pay
<Kissinger> paying members mind
<Kissinger> others are members only in name
<Jace> are we dispelling of lifetime memships?
<localroger> May I make a radical suggestion? How about making the amount voluntary?
<Mind> we are talking about 20/year/student...50/year/employed...5 per month
<Gewis> Wouldn't it be helpful if specific goals were proposed, and the money required from members to reach that goal? It sounds like we're rather stabbing about in the dark.
<Gewis> Of course, it would have to be reasonable, and acceptable to the group as a whole.
<Gewis> By democratic means.
<localroger> My own experience:
http://www.kuro5hin....4/27/195833/305<Mind> I still say no lifetime option
<Jace> gewis, it's been established that we may not know yet what exactly where the money's going
<Gewis> I know.
<Gewis> That's why I think we're stabbing in the dark.
<localroger> Which is why it makes sense to make it voluntary, like a tip jar.
<BJKlein> LifeTime Membership Option: Yes No?
<Jace> no
* caliban agreed with localogres latest suggestion initially... but there are administrative benefits if a fixed amount is charged
<Mind> No
<caliban> no
<celindra> Yes
<BJKlein> 3 no 2 yes (me)
<Kissinger> what kind of interests can you get
<Gewis> yes then
<Gewis> voluntary sounds great
<BJKlein> even
<Gewis> oh
<Gewis> lifetime
<Gewis> sorry
<Gewis> I retract my vote
<localroger> May I take the podium for a second?
<Gewis> I'm abstaining
<Kissinger> how much compound interest
<BJKlein> 3 NO 2 Yes to Lifetime
<Kissinger> with interest rates so low
* caliban agrees with a very long membership option - just not lifetime
<Kissinger> 2%?
<BJKlein> Kissinger not something to rely upon i'd thinkg
<caliban> 300 years instead of lifetime
<BJKlein> caliban is that a change of vote then?
<BJKlein> 2 no 3 yes
<caliban> no :-)
<Kissinger> no on lifetime membership
<BJKlein> ok
<Mind> 300 is still too long
<BJKlein> Jace any reason why you don't like lifetime?
<Jace> ok... having second thoughts on lifetime... purchasing lifetime gives people more of a secured feeling of being part of something for good rather than temp
<Utnapishtim> No on lifetime
<Utnapishtim> it implies a finitude of lifetime or that the institute will exist forever
<BJKlein> yike Jace changes.. and Utnapishtim chimes in..
<celindra> How about -- Lifetime members get prime access to conferences and such
<BJKlein> EVEN 3 to 3
<Utnapishtim> do you really want to imply either?
<localroger> I never expected to receive anything for Prime Intellect, but I receieved much more than I expected. If what you are working for is worthwhile, that is your expectation. OTOH I received less than conventional publication would have returned, which is in line with the fact that people don't have much money, have other priorities, and so on. Again, if this is to be a populist movement then charges are only going to drive people away.
<BJKlein> celindra that's what Full will get
<Kissinger> did you get my no BJ?
<BJKlein> checks
<BJKlein> no..
<caliban> 100 years?
<BJKlein> 4 no 3 yes
<Mind> people can still particpate localroger....just that there will be special status for paid members
<Jace> vote Lifetime! it's more of an emotional connection for members
<Jace> i think that's important
<caliban> who agrees on a 100 year membership option?
<caliban> me
<Mind> 10 years is the most I would say caliban
* celindra makes sure my Yes vote is recorded
<Gewis> Definitely.
<BJKlein> yes, i agree.. also there are individuals out there who need a tax deduction
<localroger> The thing is, when people gave me money the knew it was going into my pocket, not toward a conference or movement or whatever.
<Gewis> 10 years max if not lifetime.
<Mind> we are talking immortality and singularity type issues all the time 100 YEARS IS FOREVER
<BJKlein> 100 Year Membershiop Option:
<BJKlein> I like it
<Mind> 10 year
<localroger> I mean, isn't the idea at this point really keeping the website up and comm lines open?
<BJKlein> yet lifetime just sound more 'immortality'
<Utnapishtim> IF we have a longterm memberaship option it should be a timeframe that illustrates the ambitious goals of the institute re lifespan
<caliban> well we might have to postpone this (academic) issue into the forums
<Gewis> 100 year is an awfully arrogant assumption, not that you'd have immortality, but that this institute will still exist, honoring the memberships taken in this decade.
<chestnut> i agree is the goal (which it is) is to live forever-the lifetime membershipr reinforces what we are trying to do...but it hink the $$ amount for lifetime should be higher...
<Jace> yes, it's tacit among folks that it won't actually be "lifetime" per se. it's the impact that's important
<BJKlein> LIFE TIME MEMBERSHIP VOTE AGAIN... Yes or No
<Jace> yes
<celindra> YES
<Mind> no
<BJKlein> yes
<localroger> no
<Utnapishtim> No
<Kissinger> no
<Guest> yes
<BJKlein> krist
<chestnut> yes
<chestnut> YESYESYES
<BJKlein>
<bk_2112> yes
<BJKlein> sleeping with board
<chestnut> reord mine times 3
<BJKlein> No 4 Yes 6
<BJKlein> that right?
<Gewis> Sure.
<BJKlein> so amount?
<Mind> $10,000
<Gewis> 100 * 50 = 50,000 dollars.
<Gewis> For 100 years.
<Kissinger> whooo
<celindra> $250 - $500
<Kissinger> $1000
<chestnut> $1,000
<Jace> $1000
<bk_2112> 750
<Utnapishtim> $1000 if we must go this route
<BJKlein> ok sorry let's get the time frame first:
<localroger> May we have a little clarity here? Imminst = 2 yo localroger= 39 yo civlization = 5000yo humanity = 150000 yo complex life = 500000000 yo earth = 4000000000yo and you want a lifetime membership?
<Gewis> Next vote, would you pay 1,000 dollars upfront for a lifetime membership?
<Kissinger> $1000 is a sizable chunk of change
<celindra> No one is going to give $1000
<celindra> Be real folks
<BJKlein> Timeframe: 100 or LIFE
<Kissinger> well then they wont be life time members celindra
<Gewis> Nobody will
<BJKlein> TIMEFRAME VOTE: 100 or LIFE
<celindra> LIFE
<localroger> 100
<bk_2112> 100
<Utnapishtim> 100
<Gewis> Life
<chestnut> LIFE
<caliban> 100
<Jace> i can't associate 100 with anything
<Kissinger> life
<Jace> life
<Guest> FOREVER AND EVER
<BJKlein> One MORE TIME: 100 or LIFE
<localroger> clarification: guest's entry = life
<BJKlein> ?
<Utnapishtim> quick alternate suggestion
<Mind> I feel a yearly or monthly payment will keep people more active...it is like a reminder to keep pushing for the goal
<Jace> then again, life suggests we will die
<Utnapishtim> How about 'Permanent' membership
<Utnapishtim> that leaves time frames ambiguous
<celindra> LIFE
<chestnut> LIFE
<Gewis> Utnapishti's idea is good.
<Gewis> Permanent.
<localroger> How about we don't go there at all? If we really believe immortality can be achieved then the whole idea is stupid.
<Kissinger> immortal membership
<Gewis> yes
<BJKlein> 100=6 LIFETIME=4
<Gewis> heh
<BJKlein> that right?
<Gewis> Oh boy, Oberto
<BJKlein> sorry backward
<Mind> agreed localroger
<Kissinger> could you take that vote again BJ
<BJKlein> 100=4 LIFE=6
<Utnapishtim> If we call it permanent then there are no false assumptions built into the neame
<BJKlein> AGAON LIFE OR 100? VOTE
<Kissinger> life
<celindra> LIFE
<caliban> 100
<bk_2112> 100
<Utnapishtim> 100
<Mind> yearly and montly
<BJKlein> life
<chestnut> I think the "Immortal Member" is good at $1000
<localroger> Even if we call it permanent so we know what it is, it remains poisonous to the institution, since no dues will ever be forthcoming from those members.
<Mind> abstain
<BJKlein> Even
<localroger> 100
<chestnut> LIFE
<Jace> life
<BJKlein> Even
<Ewigkeit> life
<BJKlein> wait im confused..
<BJKlein> let me tally
<Utnapishtim> local: I don't agree with it either but it seems the die has been cast on the existence of this oprion
<caliban> LIFE has won
<caliban> now how much?
<localroger> Well then the institution is dead.
<Mind> Who has ever paid a one time sum for a lifetime membership?
<chestnut> Life?Immortal WINS!!
<Kissinger> local roger if someone if willing to dole out a $1000 I dont think they have lack of committment
<BJKlein> ok yeh.. life it is... sorry
<caliban> now how much?
<haploid> heh
<Mind> its not the end of the world localroger
<Gewis> Should we have an ImmInst legislature to make these decisions?
<Jace> $1000
<BJKlein> Gewis we need paid members first
<Gewis> hehehe
<celindra> $250 - $500
<Gewis> I know
<localroger> Kissinger, there is a long history of this in just one hobby avenue I know of orgs dying because of "lifetime" memberships sold too plenty and too cheap.
<BJKlein> 450
<Utnapishtim> lots of discussion about an option no one will purchase in my opinion
<bk_2112> $750
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, if one person does it's worth it
<chestnut> the idead is for people to coem and go and contribute to ImmiNst as they can and desire...not forced or reminded...
<Kissinger> $1000
<BJKlein> many people need tax deduction donation
<celindra> If the yearly option is $50, why pay 1000?
<localroger> It doesn't take many to purchase it to kill the organisation down the road, as a lot of avicultural societies found.
<Mind> lifetime memberships had a bad history
<BJKlein> localroger noted but well take the risk
<Kissinger> local, i voted no on lifetime, but the vote has been cast...
<Jace> $495
* localroger ruffles his feathers
<localroger> Well, we do what we can.
<BJKlein> so looks like an average is around that 500 round
<BJKlein> members like round
* caliban sees this is a contentious issue... we should do a polll in the forum
<BJKlein> 500 VOTE yes or no?
<Kissinger> why not start out at $500 and have people say up down or just right??
<Jace> yes
<Utnapishtim> So basically a lifetime membership costs the same as ten years worth of memberships
<celindra> YES
<Gewis> I'm really in favor of not having membership 'dues,' like we're some sort of elite organization. But encourage donations, make it easy to donate, and provide benefits for donating, regardless of the amount donated.
<Mind> OK...I have to go, my final feelings are 5/month...20/year/student...50/year/employed....dislike lifetime membership idea (hey...can always vote on it again next year)
<Kissinger> gewis, that issue is no longer on the table
<BJKlein> sorry AGAIN 500 LIFETIME yes or no??
<Gewis> I think that if people are aware, and if they care, they'll provide money.
<BJKlein> yes
<Utnapishtim> Gewis: Agreed, but it looks like that decision has already been made
<celindra> YES
<Jace> yes
<caliban> no
<BJKlein> 3 yes ...
<BJKlein> 1 no
<bk_2112> n0
<Kissinger> no
<BJKlein> even
<Ewigkeit> yes
<Utnapishtim> yes
<BJKlein> 5 yes 3 no
<BJKlein> 500 it is?
<BJKlein> why not caliban?
<Gewis> Can the decision be brought back to the table? Or if I keep pushing it will I be kicked out by popular vote as an obstructionist?
<haploid> localroger is correct. The last 62 minutes has demonstrated quite clearly the future of imminst.
<Guest> Yes if we can break 500 yearly or whatever
<caliban> 500 it is then
* caliban believes im democracy... sometimes
<BJKlein> heh
<caliban> last issue :
<BJKlein> haploid could you elaborate?
<caliban> tips for rewording the current "join" text ?
<celindra> link again?
<caliban> no please elaborate later
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.org/join/join.php<Gewis> For 5 dollars a month, you can contribute to our great debating society.
<BJKlein> click 'More Details'
<caliban> and click the link "More details"
<Gewis> What, besides a special members forum are we talking about as benefits? I don't care about a forum. I would pay, however, if that's what I had to do to get access to the ImmInstipedia.
<caliban> Gewis- so formally express your affiliation
<celindra> ImmInstipedia is Google bait, not good to block it off
<Utnapishtim> you get a paperback book sent to your house
<haploid> In a nutshell, this is a group of people committed to inaction and useless talk rather than action and certitude of purpose.
<Kissinger> can halperin sign his books?
<Gewis> haploid, that's what it seems like
<Kissinger> haploid shut up
<caliban> ok no suggestions for rewording?
<Jace> i like it
<celindra> hang on a sec cali
<Gewis> I vote that the admin peeps decide the wording issue without consulting us. If we don't like it, we'll talk to them, but we should leave particulars to them.
<celindra> Looks OK
<caliban> thats settled then
<Kissinger> looks fine
<caliban> anything else BJ?
<BJKlein> looks ok
<BJKlein> i'll just wrap up with an overview..
<BJKlein> Basic (free) - Full (paid) - fof Full Member Forum
<haploid> I'm out - and to those who I did not responded to privately - I never do.
<BJKlein> 20/student 50/ employ 5/month
<BJKlein> LifeTime 500
<chestnut> thanks everyone for your participation on this...
<BJKlein> thanks chestnut
* caliban seconds chestnut
<Jace> good to be here all, and to speak to you for the first time in real time
<caliban> ------ official chat ends NOW ------
<Guest> Thanks all
<celindra> OK, get to work BJ
<caliban> nice to "meet" you, Jace
<caliban> please to see you could make it, chestnut
<Jace> thank you calban
<BJKlein> Seya Jace
* celindra notes that Deering's interview is responsible for Jace being here
<celindra> :-)
<BJKlein> yeh, thanks for posting that celindra
<BJKlein> and thanks to Mike for stepping outside of the box
<caliban> you got the log BJ?
<BJKlein> yes
<BJKlein> posting now..