CHAT ARCHIVE
Anders was unable to get Java Chat to work for this chat.. so he will join us on NOV 15 SAT - @ 12 Noon Eastern
Happily, Greg Burch happened to join us for this chat:
<BruceK> Hi Greg..
<Utnapishtim> I heard. For the vast multitude of female immortalists out there
<BruceK> first time here.. greg?
<Utnapishtim> Hey greg
<kevin> I saw.. and again ... shake my fist in defiance at the powers and their exclusionary policies!
<Greg> yeah
<kevin> hey greg
<Greg> Howdy -- Is Anders here?
<kevin> NAY - not as yet
<BruceK> Haven't heard from him... he may be late...
<Greg> I thought I'd drop by to say howdy to him
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<kevin> well.. sit back.. make yourself comfortable.. and hopefully the wait won't be too long..
<BruceK> ah so you're a friend of Anders?
<Utnapishtim> Kevin: Actually good point: Chestnut should not be speaking too loudly about constitutional violations with her segregationist policies...
<Utnapishtim>
<Greg> Yeah -- I've known the Super Swede for some time now
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<Utnapishtim> Hey Mermiad
<Mermaid> hi
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* BruceK would love to know more of Anders nicknames
<Greg> Well, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you
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<Mermaid> yo chestnut
<BruceK> yikes.. have to pass heh
<kevin> hiya Mermaid... hows the water?
<chestnut> hello mermaid -
<Greg> So -- anyone see the article on tissue regenration in WIRED?
<Mermaid> nice and warm
<BruceK> Greg... by the way.. if you know Anders phone.. you may like to call him and get him to the chat..
<kevin> Renereration Thread -
http://imminst.org/f...4&t=2030&hl=&s=<Greg> Uhmm -- I don't.
<kevin> *Regeneration
<Greg> aha -- thanks
<kevin> it's a VERY cool article..
<chestnut> fyi- i prob will get disconn soon but i'll be watching over BJ's shoulders...
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<Greg> I've been looking for developments in regeneration for some time -- the old work was all pre-genetics, really.
<kevin> there were some talks at the IABG (Haseltine, Brockes, Rosenthal) that all had to do with the same thing as well..
<Utnapishtim> Is Mind joining us?
<Greg> so what're the theories for why "higher" animals lost regenerative capability?
<Utnapishtim> I just saw him listed as browsing the forum
<kevin> I always thought that as the body could heal itself it was only a matter of time before we found out how to hike the rate up..
<Greg> as the WIRED article points out, it's a great evolutionary advantage
<Utnapishtim> someone should PM and invite him to the chat
* BruceK will PM mind
<greeneyed> stress
<kevin> it's only an advantage if you survive to regenerate and procreate.. if whatever caused the initial damage gets the rest of you there's not much point.. clotting and scarring seem to have been a better option...
<greeneyed> the more stress you have the less the body is able to repair itself, at least thats what i think
<Greg> aha -- nasty evolution
<Greg> no concern for the individual
<kevin> yup.. the tiger that got my arm.. probably got the rest of me.. or it's more important that I don't bleed to death than regrow..
<kevin> life's a real grumpy sort sometimes..
<Greg> well, I'm looking forward to some new organs
<greeneyed> yeah it is, but thankfully while we do the damage most of the time, we also have the tools to undo and reverse the damage in most of the cases
<kevin> heh.. I could use a couple at the moment..
<Utnapishtim> I had this notion that baldness and acne be may at least in part, evolutionary adaptions designed to prevent sexually active but pre or post prime males from tangling with the alpha males over the finest women in the tribe
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<Utnapishtim> Hey Mind
<serenade`> Utnapishtim, interesting
<kevin> hmmm.. Ut.. what a nasty thought..
<BruceK> the De Grey vs Sprott debate is well worth it... link on homepage.. you see it Kev?
<Greg> huh -- as a balding alpha, I've got my doubts
<kevin> but possible I guess.. heh
<Mind> hey
<BruceK> welcome Mind.. that was my pm by the way... sorrry
<Utnapishtim> Bruce: I wasn't able to playit
<kevin> hiya Mind.. nice to see you wandered over.. heh
<Utnapishtim> The file woul;dn't open in media player for some reason
<Mind> The members that are online appear on my screen. Is there anyplace to find out who is chatting while online
<BruceK> Aubrey practically steam rolled Sprott... but in his usual calm way... well worth the download if you can
<Mind> You mean the debate is online!!!
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<BruceK> hmm.. Mind this is our weekly chat.. special time
<kevin> Sprott was one of the most FLACCID debaters I've seen.. by the end of the debate he was practically donating to the prize..
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<BruceK> Mind... check the homepage for the link
<Mind> k
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<kevin> yup.. I have the debate saved to an archive file if anyone is interested..
<BruceK> Kev.. .heh.. I thought so to... it was funny when he told Mort that his carrier was CR
<kevin> I know!.. that was pretty amusing..
<kevin> *career
* BruceK wonders if you can get just sound to burn to a ce
<BruceK> cd
<Utnapishtim> KEvin: Thats a pity. Aubtey is a formidable intellect and I was hoping to see a skeptic give him a real workout
<kevin> yup.. you can separate the sound from the file
<kevin> I think his biggest battles are coming..
<Greg> No doubt about that
<Greg> the bioluddites are just getting organized
<kevin> and he'll need all the support he can get from all of us who believe in the purpose and goal of the prize..
<kevin> we've got to get organized BEFORE they can..
* BruceK sent Aubrey an ImmInst T
<kevin> heh..
I think he would really appreciate it!
<Mind> yes...the bioluddites are a threat
<Greg> A problem is that people working on the real science are afraid to talk about the real implications for fear of the Frankenstein Factor
<BruceK> he said 'Thanks'
<Utnapishtim> to what extent are the bioluddites a threat?
<Mind> yes Greg...the Euros already label american food Frankenfood
<Mind> They are a threat to freedom and individual liberty
<Greg> Serious threat -- the political conservatives in the US have already adopted bioluddism as a policy, as have the greens in Europe
<Utnapishtim> Once truly compelling medical applications from currently controversial research become apparent, won't that have a big impact on public opinion
<Mind> maybe
<Mermaid> i think there is way too much food around...frankenfood should be reserved for starving nations where some food will be better than none at all
<Greg> certainly, Utnap, but that will also get the backs of the bioluddites up against the wall and they'll fight like tigers
<Mind> every cause needs supporters, and right now the bioluddites way outnumber us
<Greg> right, Mind
<Utnapishtim> Fighting against good health is gonna be a pretty tough sell
<Mind> you would think
<Greg> the problems is that "health" is being defined t include "natural" aging and death
<Mind> good point greg
<Utnapishtim> There is NOTHING healthy about being old and sick.
<Greg> Fukuyama's new book is leading the charge for the bioluddites
<Utnapishtim> Greg: Well Fukuyama stops short of calling for outright bans doesn't he?
<Greg> Utnap, I agree, but this issue will be one fo the great political and social cleavages of the 21st C.
<Mind> So it would seem one of our greatest challenges is to separate the "death" from "natural & health"
<Greg> Utnap, he does, but he's defining a "respectable" ideological bioluddite position
<Greg> I addressed these issues at Extro 5:
http://www.gregburch.net/progress.html<Utnapishtim> You think the west is hated now just watch what happens when we start gulping down rejuventaion medicines in large quantities!
<Mind> lol
<Greg> Fortunately, the CHinese don't have the West's hangups about death and nature
<Mind> good point Utna...one thing I cannot get my mind around is the mindset...
<Mind> against the "west" and progress right now
<Utnapishtim> Nor can I.. Nor can I
<kevin> I think that when LIFE actually is available for sale.. we will see a shift in the way people view each other.. I may be optimistic but even more than how AIDS drugs are available now in Africa.. I think there would be a great 'guilt' that would make the westernized countries attempt to balance wealth and health globally a little better than thus far.
<Mind> I know about the backlash to the war, but why does this spill over into a backlash against everything else
<BruceK> it's not against progress per say.. it's against specific issues that some people feel the need to fight...
<Greg> I've defined a triad of opposition to progress: I call them Romantic Naturism, The Guradians and the Magicians
<gustavo> Sorry for disagree, I do not think there is a mindset against the west
<Greg> alliances among these three positions are the most dangerous, since arguments against either one can be won
<gustavo> I don't see any symptoms of it
<Greg> Gustavo, I have to disagree strongly
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<gustavo> ok, Greg, please explain
<Mind> refresh my memeory Gustavo, where do you live?
<gustavo> Washington DC
<Mind> ok
<gustavo> I'm from argentina
<Greg> the post-modernist and "multiculturalist" mindset of academia and the mainstream media are very clear to me
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<Greg> and those positions are overtly anti-western
<gustavo> I happen to disagree again!
<Greg> shall we wrestle?
<Greg> :-)
<gustavo> ok, if you want
<gustavo> Muticulturalism, diversity
<gustavo> calls for the existence of radically different life-styles
<gustavo> language games
<gustavo> diversity of goals
<gustavo> it's exactly the kind of culture that makes something like the ImmInst possible
<Greg> that's a nice view of it -- but in practice, science gets identified as "the ideology of dead white men"
<Greg> take a look at:
http://www.butterfli...rint.php?num=40<Greg> "Postmodernism, Science and Religious Fundamentalism" is the name of the article
<Mind> I have to disagree, Imminst is possible because of freedom. We are free to join or leave. There are no diversity quotas here at Imminst and it works just fine.
<kevin> Greg: these must be almost dead white men asserting that.. science is no longer the singular purview of the western countries..
<gustavo> i'll take a look at it
<Greg> Of course it's not, but the multi-cultis have an agenda to push: Science, "dualism", "linear thinking" are all evils identified by the academy with "oppression"
<Utnapishtim> I think multiculturalism is an intellectually and morally bankrupt idea
<Greg> understand, I come from a humanities background
<Greg> if you come from the science side of the academy, you hardly encounter this
<kevin> heh..
<Greg> but policy gets made by people like me -- lawyers, social scientists, etc.
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<Mind> I am not even sure if there is a concrete definition of multiculturalism
<kevin> my sister's a lawyer.. and it's a hard argument when we start discussing the nuts and bolts of life and how they apply to laws and policies
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<Greg> damned lawyers :-)
<kevin> heh..
<gustavo> Mind: there are MULTIPLE definitions of MULTICULTURALISM
<gustavo> that's one of the good things about it
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<kevin> gus: the way I figure it.. diversity is life... any attempts to drive life into ONE constriction is doomed to failure.. multiculturalism is really NOT a dead end.. it is the way out
<Mind> Gustavo, what is taught in US schools nowadays (I know I went to UW-Madison), is that all cultures are equal. No culture is better than any other. Multiculturalism in its extreme form even puts all cultures on a higher plane than the west
<Greg> Kevin, I agree at one level -- the problem is that the idea has been hijacked
<Utnapishtim> I am worried about the strong socialist strain in european politics... The one that views a relative equality of outcomes as a good to be pursued in and of itself. I am worried at the impact this world view will have on the progress of transhumanist technologies in europe
<Greg> UW Madison, the Wisconsin Scholars SOviet
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<kevin> yup.. as most good ideas will be.. it is always difficult to prevent principles from being usurped by the unscrupulous for their own means.. they see something that works and pervert it
<BruceK> Natasha welcome!
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<Greg> Natasha -- how you doing, darling?
<Mind> Equality of opportunity is better than equality of outcomes...you are on the money there Utna
<kevin> dahling?
<Greg> (Hoping it's NVM and not someone I don't know...)
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<Coyote> it is
<Utnapishtim> I evaluate cultures on the extent to which they hinder or facilitate the free flow of goods services and ideas.
<Mind> Me too
<BruceK> dahling = darling
<Mind> more freedom....better culture in my mind
<Greg> "dahlink" to get the old Boris and Natasha accent
<Coyote> Boris and NaStasha
<Utnapishtim> I agree
<Greg> but I think we lost her
<Mind> dahlik for doctor who fans
<Greg> ha
<Greg> never was a dr. who fan -- not available in the US when I was a kid in the Cambrian age
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<BruceK> heh.. how old are you Greg?
<Greg> ancient beyond the reckoning of man
<Greg> 46
<BruceK> ah.. young buck
<Mind> Is Sci-Fi dead?
<kevin> HEY! I just turned 40 Greg.. who you calling ANCIENT!?
<Mind> Is the world changing so fast that it outpaces our ability to create fiction about it
<Greg> well, let's just say I'm keenly interested in the regenration technology...
* BruceK is starting to round off my age at decades now.. as it's easier to remember (30)
<kevin> hey.. time's been taking slices of me for a while now Greg..
<Utnapishtim> I think that one thing we can not turn our back on is that life extension tech.. when it initiallt arrives will be distrbuted along existing wealth and power lines
<Mind> obviously
<Mind> cannot prevent this
<Coyote> The world is changing so fast that reality is indistinguishable from Sci-Fi
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<Mind> good point
<Utnapishtim> and this will sent the developed world as well as guilty white liberals into hysterics
<Utnapishtim> the developing world rather
<Greg> that assumes it will be expensive -- not a bad assumption, but NECESSARILY true.
<Greg> I'm living in the SF of my youth
<kevin> I think most of the concepts and proposals of current physics have been investigate.. the future has arrived and new insights need to be developed for fiction to capture the imagination again.. IMO
<Greg> one problem is that there's a "wall" that's been created with the concept of the Singularity -- it's put a damper on the imagination in some ways
* Coyote at 43 is living in his youth, unexpectedly
<Greg> Coyote -- I seem to go through waves of feeling young and old -- on about a 2-3 year cycle
<Mind> If it is a "one shot" deal (which is probably won't be, but just assume) then the problems will be minimized....but if life extension/enhancement requires continual monetary input for several years then yes...the white liberals will scream
<Coyote> Greg: yes I do to, Ive had that problem since i was about 10
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<Utnapishtim> Then they can show solidarity with the poor of the world and not take it themselves should they so wish. But I'm sure such moral purity will not be enough for them...
<Greg> it's not necessarily a problem -- it may actually be a foretaste of what life will be like for very long-lived individuals
<Mind> I brought up the Sci-fi question because I just saw Matrix 3 and it sucked
<kevin> I have the idea that our brain is MUCH more flexible then previously thought and we are limited by our perceptions... although we certainly don't do math as fast as a computer.. we seem to be very strong at synthesis.. something they can't do very well at all..
<kevin> It will be interesting to see how human-computer interfaces develop and if the brain can develop the agility to adapt to their use.. the singularity may have a more biologically based competition..
<Greg> I've pre-panned the Matrix in my blog:
http://gregburch.net...799916184898973<Utnapishtim> Matrix 3 didn't just suck it actually offended me with its puerile glorification of lemming like faith over reason
<Greg> Utnap -- B I N G O
<jay_> it was awful
<Mind> I was horrible
<kevin> Heh Greg: Do you ride motorcycles?
<Kid-A> well other people 'get it' now
<Greg> Hollywood glorifies romance over reason EVERY time
<BruceK> jeez... that bad, eh
<Greg> Kevin -- I used to -- before I got old
<Mind> after all the philosophizing ...it turned out to be another "Christ story"
<Greg> :-0
<Kid-A> it was very tacky and predictable
* kevin hits greg with an 'old' noodle
<Mind> terrible
<Greg> now I'm a car fanatic
<Greg> two wheels bad, four wheels good
<kevin> the Matrix (3) got '0' kernels of popcorn in on our news coverage..
<Utnapishtim> Well... I didn't think it was gonna be able to give me the answer to the free will vs determism debate. So part III was ALWAYS gonna be something of a let down. They were promising answers western philosophy hasn't been able to deliver in 2500 years
<kevin> Greg.. I'm subject to risk aversion a little more these days than before myself..
<EmilG> Hey, don't knock Matrix 3 *too* much. A SingInst supporter is in the credits.
<Mind> As a stand alone movie (in a different age...say the 90's) it would be an alright action flick (2 stars), but considering the first 2 movies...the third sucked more than a broke Veags whore
<Greg> who?
<Utnapishtim> speaking of tacky. Kill Bill is incredibly tacky but gloriously so. A GREAT movie
<Greg> mind -- lol
<BruceK> no kidding Emil...
<kevin> They obviously didn't let him have his way with the script E.
<EmilG> Durant Schoon of ESC Entertainment did some special effects.
<Greg> I was in Beijing when they were filming Kill Bill there
<Kid-A> i thought the second one was worse
<Greg> got a lot of coverage in the local press
* kevin ashamedly admits his favorite recent film is 'Finding Nemo'
<Kid-A> w00t
<EmilG> kevin: That's mine too. Nothing wrong with that.
<kevin> heh
<Kid-A> its great
<EmilG> And it just came out on DVD.
<Mind> Nemo was entertaining...nothing wrong with that
<Kid-A> but children dont seem to get why its funny
<BruceK> I really liked "Antz"
<kevin> Antz is a great flick too..
<Greg> best SF flick in a long time IMO was "the 13th Floor"
<kevin> Ahhh. .what do children know..
<gustavo> what about "chicken run"?
<kevin> chicken run.. HILARIOUS
<Greg> haven't seen "chicken run"
<jay_> american psycho & wall street
<jay_> wooooooooo
<Kid-A> its a classic
<Greg> huh
<Coyote> channel: what will Anders topic be today?
<kevin> eek.. I used to be a huge horror and thriller fan.. but no longer..
<Mind> If the wacho brothers would have just chose one of the other philosophical endings instead of the "messiah ending" then it would've been tolerable. Like what about matrix within a matrix possibility or the machine human merger possibility?
<Greg> Mind -- the endng they chose shows how intellectually bankrupt Hollywood is, IMO
<Mind> good point
<BruceK> Coyote.. we're still waiting for Anders
<BruceK> but it was to be "What will the Future be like"
<kevin> Coyote: Anders Topic: A Vision of the Future - Anders Sandberg
<Greg> There's NO WAY they can show a positive future for thing like a man-machine merger
<BruceK> or such..
<Coyote> thx
<Kid-A> they just wanted more people to get it
<Mind> could be
<Kid-A> so they have more money
<kevin> They could.. but only as long as humans were in complete control..
<Mind> $$$$$
<Greg> Kid-A -- so they played to the Main Paradigm: Jesus/Savior/Romance over Reason
<gustavo> another very good movie about death and time travelling.... but with a messiah ending also: Donnie Darko. Anybody seen it?
<Mind> nope
<Greg> uh uh
<Ven> Donnie Darko was a great film.
<Coyote> BruceK: also, If I had, known all my typos would be posted on Imnist for the world to see I would have been on my best behavior
<BruceK> so you missed that disclaimer?
<Coyote> ?
<BruceK> just kidding..
<jay_> amelie
<Coyote> yes could you go edit that chat log for me
<BruceK> ah love that french girl
* BruceK runs off to do some fast editing
<kevin> Amelie: everyone's hero..
<Coyote> I thought the character in Amelie was too self absorbed and weak for me to feel a pathos for
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<Kid-A> i'd rather watch delicatessent
<kevin> hmm..that's exactly why I felt pathos..
she was just like me.. weak and self absorbed.. heh..
<BruceK> i had an idea... not movie related.. but anywayz.. print out 30 sheets of paper called '5 second survey'
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<Mind> just to let you know Utna...I responed to your query
<Coyote> kevin: that is something I prefer to keep in denyal about myself
<BruceK> with 5 choices.. 1. i want to live less than 50 yrs... 1. more than 50 less than 70 .. all the way to Forever..
<Coyote> heh
<kevin>
<BruceK> and then ask for an email.. and then send the results to the participants
<kevin> I think it's a pretty interesting idea BJ.. I might try it with the staff at 'the shop'.. they might be up for it..
<Coyote> 1 should be I want to be dead right now
<Coyote> or
<kevin> LOL - > coyote
<Coyote> I died a long time ago
<kevin> now that's funny
<BruceK> yeh.. i think on a larger scale we could do this before the conference in Atlanta.. at the College campus at GA Tech
<BruceK> and announce at the conference...
<Kid-A> i'm dying as we speak
<kevin> I've thought about setting up a 'kiosk' in a mall, if they would allow it, and asking exactly that type of question...
<BruceK> cool... kevin going to start spiking the water soon
<Coyote> 1. Already died 2. I want to be dead right now 3. I want to be dead a different now in the future 4....
<BruceK> heh...
<Coyote> You will attract a few clove smoking Dennys lurking malcontent goth kids with the first few
<BruceK> what's with this goth thing?
<kevin> on another note.. I had an opportunity to talk with Lazarus yesterday by V-Chat through Yahoo messenger.. spoke for about an hour.. he's pretty verbal ..
<BruceK> I don't understand where it came from...
<BruceK> nice. kev.. yeh Laz is quite the spokesperson..
<kevin> (goth = the romanticism of mortality and suffering and the futility of explaining ANYTHING)
<BruceK> did it arise from a movie or a person?
<Coyote> well the adams family and batman had a big part of why us "elder goths" started it all in the 1970's, it has kind of took off from there, the first "goth" song I remember was bella Lugosi is dead by Bauhause
<BruceK> ahh
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<BruceK> BeetleJuice?
<Greg> -> completely missed "goth"
<kevin> good one.. I completely AVOIDED goth
<Coyote> I got bored wiht it soon before it was discovered
<kevin> heh..
<kevin> black was never my color
<BruceK> greg.. cool webpage by the way.. just looking at your diving pics
<Greg> I stopped paying attention to pop culture for about 15 years starting around 1979 or so
<Greg> ahh -- thx
<Coyote> heh
* kevin must go have BREAKFAST
<BruceK> seya kev
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<Coyote> ok wheres Anders
<kevin> ciao people.. perhaps Anders will reschedule? or maybe he thinks it's at the regular time?
<Greg> I'm gonna blast that cold fish Anders next time I see him
* EmilG loves music from the 80s and 90s. That is, 1880s and 1890o.
<Greg> ha
<Coyote> ok
<BruceK> greg.. you mind if i ask you a few q's about your ideas on physical immortality?
<EmilG> 1890s.
<kevin> heh -> E.
<Greg> sure -- shoot
<Greg> BANG
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<BruceK> what happens after death.. heh
<Greg> so much for immortality
* kevin is now known as kevin-away
<BruceK> LAZ welcome fella just talking about ya... good stuff all good..
<BruceK> about you and kev on yahoo
<Coyote> what happens TO WHAT after death?
<BruceK> that stuff we're so interested in.. consciousness etc.
<Coyote> oh I guess you become a Goth
<Coyote> heh
<Coyote> sorry
<Greg> after death? flat line, zero, nada, zip
* BruceK nods
<Greg> The Big Sleep
<LazLo> That's OK Bruce I am sure I will get to review it in the record
)
<BruceK> therefore one need to do everything to stay alive or protect the information.. rightg?
<Greg> seems that way to me
<BruceK> that was painless
<Greg> ha
<BruceK> you have any friends who feel the same ?
<LazLo> Too bad I t seems like I missed Anders, I forgot about the time change for the chat
<Greg> btw, re my scuba pics -- you can see a couple of early transhumanist/immortalists in rubber suits on the more recent page
<BruceK> cool... i'll check
<Greg> here's one of my faves of natasha:
http://www.gregburch...05/IMGA0380.JPG<BruceK> Anders never showed.. Greg will givem hell next time he sees him
<LazLo> Oh that is a shame have you made sure that you coordinated time zone references with him?
<Coyote> nice tricep
<Greg> you can crack an egg on her butt
<BruceK> Laz.. yep... hince the special time...
<Coyote> wiht permission of course
<Greg> sometimes Anders can fit the absent-minded professor thing to a "T"
<BruceK> eh.. well it's not a problem.. we can always reschedule
<LazLo> I hope "Tosh is listenning to the fine praise of her physique, it is generally a god thing to be approeciated
<BruceK> what are you working on these days Greg?
<BruceK> i like the leopard skin swim suite
<Greg> Oh -- lots of stuff -- you mean professionally?
<BruceK> hmm.. yeh..
<Greg> China's a big part of my current strategic work
* BruceK Greg is now our official chat topic
<Greg> but the bread and butter is mainly construction
<Greg> please -- we'll run out of things to talk about pretty quickly
<BruceK> China is certainly coming along .. especiall with space
<Greg> yeah -- I was sooooooo jazzed by Shenzhou V
<Coyote> 10:14:17 09/11/2003 irc.lucifer.com
<BruceK> do you see a revolution against communism in their future?
<Greg> I want the PRC to take part in the ISS program as soon as possible -- a big dream, but just barely possible
<Greg> not a revolution, but the evolution is real and continuing
<BruceK> PRC?
<Greg> People's Republic of CHina -- standard abb.
<BruceK> ah.. k
<Greg> sorry -- old CHina hand here
<BruceK> china has nuclear right?
<Greg> Oh yeah -- although not as much or as capable as most people think
<Greg> a few 100 warheadsa, no MIRVS, and only one real ICBM
<Greg> no solid-fuled true ICBM
<LazLo> China has H-Bomb and reactor tech, their space program is recycled societ upgraded to more modern specs
<Coyote> well they have silkworms
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<LazLo> soviet ICBM
<Greg> right -- the PLA is concentrating on cruise missile tech
<Greg> Their ICBM -- Long March derivative -- is solely Chinese-designed and made
<Greg> they have no Scud-derivative or other SOv rocket tech
<LazLo> true but the space program is modelled on societ plans
<LazLo> soviet*
<Greg> Yes -- the Shenzhou is definitely Soyuz-derived, but much more capable, actually
<Greg> for instance
<Greg> both the service module and the "orbital module" have solar panels and they are aimable -- not so w/Soyuz
<LazLo> agreed, definitely "an improved model" and the long march is also borrowed IMO
<LazLo> and Jane's
<Greg> hmm -- my main source on China's rocketry is www.astronautix.com -- great stuff there
<Greg> look at the lack of "cluster-nozzle" approach in LM as opposed to Sov designs
<BruceK> so you're looking to help build in china.. greg?
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<Greg> they have much higher-pressure comb. chambers than the russkies
<LazLo> borrowed not copied but more power to them it wasn't a criticism to adapt what was already proven IMO
<Greg> yeah -- getting my nose stuck into as many nooks and crannies in China as possible -- last night I took a vice0-minister of the Min.. of Commerce to see Yao Ming play for the Rockets
<Greg> ironically
<LazLo> lol
<BruceK> wow...
<Greg> Laz -- it was definitely a good choice to start w/ the Soyuz -- they leapfrogged 30 years that way
<BruceK> so most in china speek english?
<Greg> not most by any means (I speak a little CHinese, BTW), but the elites have a lot of English
<LazLo> what about biotech Greg?
<Greg> biotech is BIG in the PRC -- and they don't have a bioluddite faction there AT ALL
<Greg> look for very fast, dramatic developments from China in biotech soon
<LazLo> How are tehy integratign Traditional Medicine with the alopathy they are advancing rapidly in?
<BruceK> that's from their religious perspective.. i would gather... we may see the stem cell revolusion.. and regenerative medicine take off in China... now that'd be pretty ironic
<Coyote> Greg they have had a forward thinking philosophy on the health of the people for a long time
<LazLo> they integrating*
<Greg> yes -- Chinese traditional culture has much, much more receptivity to life-extension than in the West
<Coyote> it has Taoist roots
<Greg> Coyote -- B I N G O
<BruceK> I wonder how ImmInst would play to a Chinese audience
<Greg> still a little too soon -- but I would like to see overtures made when the time is right
<BruceK> say.. the mission is to make death an option..
<LazLo> Is it in part the cultural affinity for ancestor worship having a positive influence on accepting Longevity Tech?
<Greg> things are moving at such a fever pitch right now that getting anyone's attention for very long is hard
<Coyote> BruceK: I think the Libertarian overtones would seem selfish individualism, but the tech is golden
<LazLo> like the west in teh 80's/90's
<Greg> Laz: "filial piety" -- reverence for elders (which is really what so-called "ancestor-worship" is all about) is a great foundation -- in Confucianism, not Daoism, as well
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<Greg> the two together Daoist alchemy/life-extension and COnfucian filial piety are a rich soil for life ext. work in CHina
<LazLo> I'll reprogram my register thanks
) "Filial Piety" ...
<Greg> lol
<Coyote> sheshay
<Greg> of coure, there's a deep conservatism inherent in that filial piety as well -- which is where the tension is -- not "romantic naturism" as in the West
<LazLo> Mao is not dead, he is cryogenicaly awating revivial
)
<Greg> n the whole, though, I'm very hopeful that alternative centers for advanced biotech will develop in China as a counterweight to Western cenbters
<Greg> Ugh -- Mao's tomb -- an oppressive weight every time I cruise through Tien An Men Square
<Coyote> Greg: I hope that will spark a competitive interest
<Greg> exactly my hope
<Greg> Americans can't stand to be outdone
<LazLo> It exemplifies the "conservative" aspect of filial piety though
<Greg> Yes, Laz
<Greg> and the fear of the CCP to let go of a symbol of dynastic legitimacy
<LazLo> didn't the Chinese invent the very concept of a dynasty?
<Greg> but when it sinks in that there are HUNDREDS of biotech labs working at full throttle in China, people in the US will have to think twice about being so squeamish
<Coyote> Greg: wouldnt it be wild if filial piety eventualy extended to cryostasis for ALL deceased relatives?
<Greg> Uhmm -- probably not , Laz, it's a natural concept -- Egypt, mesopatamia, as well
<Greg> Coyote -- great idea
<Greg> The ultimate way to be loyal to one's mama and papa -- freeze 'em
<BruceK> hehe
<Greg> I've had positive responses to my cryo necklace in China
<BruceK> Greg did you go to the recent ExtroBrit event?
<Greg> although the circumstances in which it is revealed are usually pretty drunken
<Greg> so it's hard to tell
<Greg> no -- I'm not working in the UK much any more
<BruceK> heh.. cool...
<Greg> I used to be a sort of unifficial transhuman messenger, since I travelled to UK/Europe so much, but now I'm oriented to Asia
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<LazLo> " I'm oriented to Asia" is this a pun?
<Greg> perzacktly
<Greg> one of my favorite CHina blogs is called "disoriented in the Orient"
<LazLo> daoist humor is so circular
<LazLo> they start with the punch line a work backward forever
<Greg> shit -- half the time even when I understand all the Chinese words, I just smile and nod when someone tells a joke over there
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<Greg> explaining humor to each other is only possible with liberal applications of Baijiu -- the jet fuel that passes for liquor
<BruceK> i'm away.. great ot meet you Greg.. i'll email the info about the book project....
<Greg> thnx -- I need to split as well -- let's all agree to grill Anders
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<Coyote> TsiJen
<LazLo> how do the people deal with issues like involuntary organ donation and the popularity of sex selection and social consequence? Is there a long view?
<Jonesey> china is a weird place, basically a huge 3rd world country with tiny industrialized country embedded in it
<BruceK> heh... we'll have to reschedule... take care