8 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

Chat Topic: Anders Sandberg - A Vision of the Future
Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat
Chat Time: SATURDAY Nov 15th @ 12 Noon Eastern

Time Zones
5 PM London
12 Noon Eastern US
11 AM Central
10 AM Mountain
9 AM Pacific



Anders Sandberg

Anders is founder and former chair of the Swedish Transhumanist Association and manages the respected Transhumanist Resources website. He is currently a doctoral research student at the SANS group at NADA at the Royal Institute of Technology in Sweden, doing computer modeling of the medial temporal lobe memory system. Anders also is a founder and writer for the commercial think tank Eudoxa, lectures at Stockholm University, and is a frequent popular science speaker on Radio Unga Forskare.

Anders CV

Anders Sandberg M.S. has graciously granted ImmInst permission to repost the following article from Transhumanity.


A Vision
Anders Sandberg, July 14, 2003

I have a vision of the future.

Within a fairly short time we will have the technological tools to manipulate matter at the molecular scale, making both manufacturing and recycling nearly perfect. Advances in artificial intelligence will enable more or less smart devices to act on their own, allowing teams of robots to build vast structures as desired or process enormous amounts of information in order to design solutions to many problems. We will have the tools to redesign ourselves and our environment according to our visions.

Soon the solar system will change beyond recognition. Surrounding the Earth space habitats with their own artificial ecospheres will orbit in vast bands. Within each there is room for millions of people to shape their own culture. Similar, but even vaster habitats are being wrought by the material of the asteroid belt and the cometary nuclei. Slowly a sphere is being formed by millions of habitats, solar power collectors and other devices around the sun drinking its life-giving energy and radiating communications of all kinds. In the end most of the solar output will be used by life rather than dissipate into the cold of space.

On Mars eagles soar above the Valles Marineris and dolphins explore the new Boralis Sea as ecopiesis and terraforming makes it inhabitable. What started out as a apocalypse of comets guided to crash into the planet and self-replicating nanomachines producing greenhouse gasses, breaking down carbonate rocks and freeing water first made the planet warm and wet enough for life - mostly genetically modified algae and lichens - to survive on their own. Gradually the life transformed the environment into something more and more terrestrial species could inhabit. Mars will never become a copy of Earth; the lower gravity, the red rocks, the uneven seasons, colder and dryer climate and the two moons will make sure of that. Over the eons life will adapt more fully to Mars until what started out as transplanted species will have become entirely new species that are truly native.

On Mercury an ecosystem of machines is thriving. Self-replicating machines mine the rocky surface, extracting metals and semiconductors they use to build solar collectors. Deliberately designed to evolve they are inventing an ecology of glittering artificial life in shapes unimaginable to human planning. Some solutions are as creative and unexpected as wood, a wonderful material with many desirable properties, but nothing that any engineer could deliberately think up, and serve as inspiration for the rest of the solar system.

In the seas of Europa adapted deep-sea lifeforms are slowly colonising the volcanic vents on the bottom of the sea. Most of them are variants of the ecologies around terrestrial volcanic vents, but strange new algae designed to make use of the weak light and heat now live beneath the thick ice. On Earth they have survived in their nearly unchanging ecological niche for hundreds of millions of years; on Europa their niche will likely persist for billions of years.

In the tar-like seas of ethane on Titan new forms of life designed from scratch are evolving. Instead of water they use hydrocarbons, and instead of photosynthesis they gather nutrients raining down from the clouds and the forces of the vast tidal flows.

And around the gas planets vast projects are underway to build ships that will bring the seeds of the solar system outwards to other stars. Fuelled by energy from the enormous solar collectors and mass from the gas atmospheres, they hold the collected information of the life of the solar system . genomes, human culture, the blueprints for new habitats. Are they crewed? Some might be filled with humans or human descendants, others by our artificial descendants or simple replication systems. Once they reach another system they will settle on a suitable asteroid and use it to build a larger base with room for greater minds, who in turn will use their stored knowledge and equipment to built yet larger and more versatile homes. Just as a tiny seed can unfold a few small leaves and roots that gives it the energy and nutrients needed to grow more leaves, more roots and strive towards the sun, the solar system seeds will bootstrap themselves into ever greater and diverse forms once they reach their destination and finally become adult civilisations.

Lets zoom outwards in time and space. From the perspective of the galaxy the yellow dwarf star on the outskirts of the Orion arm has never been unusual. But first it sends out a burst of strangely ordered radio signals. Soon afterwards it begins to change as if the solar system around it was turning into a globe more carefully using its energy for something. Nearly instantly - a few scant millennia - other stars in the vicinity begins to change in a variety of ways. A wavefront is expanding outwards turning empty solar systems and raw matter into something new and complex: habitats for life. In some cases this might be the terraforming of planets or the construction of habitats in space. In other cases entire planets are dismantled to build enormous concentric shells of energy collection, computing nodes and cooling systems that enable vast computer networks to house information ecologies far more complex than the biological one that once grew on the first planet. Here and there entire stars are disassembled to provide for longer lasting sources of warmth than they would naturally be. As the wavefront passes the galaxy changes, becomes a home to life and thought and not just to mass and energy.

And after it has transformed the milky way the wave continues outwards - to the Magellanic clouds, to Andromeda and the other galaxies in the local cluster, taking the vast jump to the Virgo cluster, embracing the local supercluster and beyond. This is my vision of the future: a future where life embraces and fills the universe.

One might argue that what I have described is not the triumph of life but the triumph of human culture and technology. But what is human culture and technology but an expression of life? The human species is just another species doing what it can to survive. In our case we stumbled on the unusual ecological niche of making tools to help us and eventually build our own ecological niches, something which was aided by (or perhaps caused by, causing or co-evolving with) our vast communications and thinking abilities. There are many species that use simple tools to survive better, or construct environments that please them . insect larvae assembling gravel coatings, birds picking caterpillars with sticks, corals constructing reefs. Are they in any respect different from our clothing, hammers and cities? A city is not just an artefact but also an ecosystem: countless other species have moved in and survive there thanks to the actions of the keystone species Homo sapiens. Given enough time natural evolution would likely produce adaptations to city life among the plants and animals just as bizarre and beautiful as the one seen on coral reefs and in tropical jungles. It is only because our cities are so young and not intended to be ecosystems (and because we do not pay attention) they appear impoverished and sterile.

It is true that humans will play a key role in this vision. But it is not primarily a story about the hegemony of humanity over the natural world. It is true that this vision has room for all varieties of human futures and ambitions, from quiet contemplation to vastening into godlike posthuman states. While the humans might consider themselves the rulers, they are unwittingly serving life by expanding its niches to new places, places where life would never have been able to go naturally. Evolution can never reach a local optimum separated from current species by a sufficiently broad desert of non-viable species; no matter what it cannot evolve the molecular machinery to build diamond skeletons, spaceflight or survival on Mercury. This is something that requires what is currently uniquely human, foresight and technology. Intelligence is necessary for the long-term survival and expansion of life. By expanding outwards (for whatever reasons) humanity brings with itself other species. Some as food and companions, some as freeriders and parasites and likely, when crossing great gulfs, many .just in case. to make sure no diversity is lost. Some might be visionaries wanting to save or expand life for its own sake, but the beauty is that not all humans need to be. A vision that required all humans to act as one would remain just a beautiful vision; a vision merely requiring that humans continue to do what it always has done is far more likely.

Pessimists among us might complain that in the past we humans have often destroyed the environment of life, and that this is also something that is likely to continue. But most of this destruction has been due to ignorance and limited resources: when you are half starving you do not care that your next meal is an endangered keystone species. It is thanks to the affluence and efficiency of modern technology we can reduce our ecological footprints and undo some of the damage. If one believes that mankind is always the destroyer, then my vision is not possible. But given that assumption no other positive vision of the future is possible, not even sustainability on the Earth. On the other hand, if one assumes humanity can take care of its biosphere (however imperfectly), then there is no hindrance to spreading that biosphere outwards and hoping for the best.

As I see it the word life should not be interpreted narrowly and parochially as our particular kind of water-protein organisation but as complex self-replicating and evolving systems as a whole. The machine ecology of Mercury, the methane ecology of Titan and the software living within the vast computing networks are all examples of generalised life. We will not just expand the niches of traditional life but also create new kinds of life - as experiments, as art, as adaptations. And these forms of life are equally worth our reverence and appreciation as the traditional wet kind. There is no fundamental difference between created and born life, except possibly that the former has a morally responsible parent.

Some readers no doubt find my vision distasteful just because it replaces the natural with the artificial. There are those who argue that terraforming a planet is a crime against its natural environment. But when plants begin to colonise a newly formed volcanic island, is that a crime? Hardly, and it is seen as natural. Would it be a crime to deliberately scatter seeds on the island? It might have less of the appeal of surprise a natural scattering would have engendered in a human observer, but from the perspective of the plants and rocks there is no difference. Scattering seeds across the universe is the same thing on a vast scale. Perhaps most important, life remakes itself. A typical tool when left to itself will not change (except for some decay). Life reproduces and evolves, exploring new possibilities almost by definition. Even a strictly manufactured living environment will become something else given enough time. It will become born rather than made, but it could not exist without the initial manufacture. Humanity is both steward of life and a player in its emergence.

One might argue that this is just a - quantity is quality - vision, that the number of living things do not matter. Why convert teratonnes or matter into plants, animals and humans when only a few would be necessary? But the same argument suggests that we would be just as well off with a single patch of vegetation in an otherwise empty gravel desert as an entire meadow. One reason the meadow is better than the patch is that it can sustain more species and more complexity than the patch; it can be a part of the interplay between biomes. It is also more stable to damage and is needed to sustain large animals like horses. But it is also necessary to allow more uniqueness. As I see it life has an inherent worth compared to the matter and energy of the universe. It has the potential of growth, change and awareness disorganised rock and plasma lack. Due to its evolutionary and individual past each organism is contingent. it was shaped due to its genes and surroundings in an unique way that will never occur again. Each of us, each blade of grass or bacteria, is a kind of one-of-a-kind snowflake. I hope the universe will be filled with a snowstorm of these.

What about other life in the universe? In this ecological vision there is not just room for it, it is something to be sought out, cherished and spread just as we will spread our own kind. Life is life.

What about the alternative to my vision? Imagine the following - sustainable - vision: mankind contents itself to the Earth, remaining static either deliberately or by quietly dying out. Life continues on Earth, while the bodies of the solar system revolve as nothing has happened. Species come and go on Earth, while the sun slowly but inexorably increases in luminosity. In a few hundred million years the increasing heat overcomes the homeostasis of the biosphere and it largely dies out, leaving a Venus-like world of heavy smog and gravel. In a few billion years the sun grows into a red giant and engulfs the inner system. What is eventually left is either a frozen husk of slag orbiting a white dwarf or just a hint of extra lithium in the spectrum of the planetary nebula around it.

Is this vision desirable? It is the - natural - chain of events that will result if humanity does not change things. There is room within it for billions of species and thousands of grand civilisations. But it ends ignominiously and it is fundamentally limited.

On a larger scale there might be biospheres emerging all the time around distant stars: small stalks of grass growing in the dark soil of the Milky Way. But without intelligence supporting them they all shrivel and die before any chance of seeding. Each biosphere, filled with uniqueness and potential, will vanish without a trace, without even one conscious observer.

The desire to protect the natural is a desire to protect the contingent and valuable from the ravages of entropy - or just conservatism devaluing human ambition and creativity. Unfortunately the two are often confused. This vision is all about protecting and nurturing nature at its largest by means of vast human ambition. The triumph of the denigration of the artificial and deliberate would be not just the abandonment of humanity but also the eventual betrayal of the only chance life has to continue growing.

It has been said that growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. This is true, but it is also the ideology of the orchid. Without constant attempts to sprout seeds everywhere the orchid would die out. Even if it did survive at a guaranteed constant number it would not have any incentive to evolve. It is the constant struggle to produce more orchids that have made orchids evolve their bulbs and air-roots, their amazing flowers to entice insects and vast variety of ecological niches. It is thanks to growth and evolution that we achieve beauty.

I propose that we will turn the universe into a garden.

[MichaelAnissimov]

Wow! Although I disagree with Sandberg that such emphasis will be placed on unintelligent biomass in the future, this kind of exciting writing is what made me feel warm with glee at the opportunities of transhumanism in the first place. His scientific knowledge is impeccable, his attitude is ambitious and rational, and his writing style is stirring and motivational. Great job, Anders!

[Clifford Greenblatt]

The idea of making use of all the Sun's output is quite interesting from an engineering point of view. The Sun outputs 2.8*10^26 watts. I pay about eight cents per kilowatt hour for electricity. At that rate, solar power is worth six million trillion dollars per second. The entire U.S. national debt could be paid off in a single microsecond!

Here is some musing on how the full output of the Sun could be collected and stored for use by life. Please excuse ( or better yet, please correct) any technical errors that may follow as time and personal knowledge limitations do not permit me to do thorough research. Jupiter's mass, formed into a spherical shell the size of Jupiter's solar orbit, would contain 5.7 ounces of mass per square inch. A single shell for solar collection would require the least amount of material to construct but would have no means of avoiding collapse. A large number of thread-like, rings could be placed in stable orbit around the sun and cover all four-pi steradians of solar radiation. More material would be required for the rings than for the single shell due to a great deal of overlap in steradian coverage. Chemical means would be insufficient to store collected solar energy over extremely long periods of time. Energy storage would need to be done by high efficiency conversion to atomic fuel. Jupiter would provide the greatest mass in the solar system for construction materials, but atomic conversion would be needed to produce the required elements. The materials would be produced by self-replicating micro-fusion atomic reactors covering the surface of Jupiter. The task of delivery would be done by use of long vacuum propulsion shafts that would accelerate the ring material, with no atmospheric resistance, into orbit around the Sun. The ring material would actually be threads of highly advanced machinery constructed to atomic level precision. The ring machinery could possibly use solar energy to produce extremely strong electric fields to create matter-antimatter particle pairs for atomic energy storage purposes.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

Here is some further thought on biospheres and collection of solar energy. Please disregard the mention of threads in my previous comment. The rings orbiting the sun would consist of a series of systems of extremely large, thin solar panels connected to space stations. Rather than being biospheres, each space station would be a rotating band that would provide 1g acceleration at its walls. From here, there would be two different philosophies. One philosophy would be to store solar output for use by a limited population over an extremely long period of time. This would require conversion of solar energy into matter and antimatter for storage purposes. The alternate philosophy would be to make population sizes as large as necessary to continually use all solar output with neither waste or excess. The first philosophy would emphasize maximizing the length of time over which life can exist. Both philosophies would seek to maximize the total number of person hours lived, but only the first philosophy would be compatible with making individual life spans as long as possible.

The idea or a wave of life spreading out from the earth presents some interesting challenges. A wave approach would require each space ship to travel only as far the nearest star that has a planet. Assume space ships travel at 100,000 miles per hour. Neglecting the amount of time required to gather materials and build more space ships at each star, the wave would take 330 million years to expand to the radius of the Milky Way galaxy. However, about ninety-five percent of stars have no planets and this presents a major materials problem. Radiated energy would have to be collected and transformed into matter and antimatter particles for construction materials. Suppose a star has the same radiant output as the Sun and replicating solar collectors are to orbit at the same distance that Mercury is from the Sun. Suppose the replicating solar collectors have an average density of one ounce per square foot . Suppose the diameter of the solar collectors are one quarter of a square mile. Suppose 26% of the collected light is converted into mass for replication of the solar collectors. At that rate, a solar collection system could be replicated in five hundred thousand years. In approximately thirty-one million years the solar collection systems could cover all four pi steradians of the stellar radiation with an overlap factor of four.

[Bruce Klein]

Chat Topic: Anders Sandberg - A Vision of the Future
Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat
Chat Time: Sun Nov 2 @ 12 Noon Eastern

Time Zones
5 PM London
12 Noon Eastern US
11 AM Central
10 AM Mountain
9 AM Pacific

[Thomas]

It is an impressive vision, no doubt about. What I don't think, is that it will be that gradual transformation. Instead, everything will be quite quick, and no room for stars and planets, for example, will remain. However, the result will be even more beautiful.

It is difficult to explain this to others, though. Especially if you are only a human, as even Anders still is.

[natasha]

I agree with Ander's use of the word "design." I think the idea of design will become tantamount to science in developing a transhumanist future.

Anders says, "We will have the tools to redesign ourselves and our environment according to our visions."

Natasha

[Bruce Klein]

CHAT ARCHIVE

Anders was unable to get Java Chat to work for this chat.. so he will join us on NOV 15 SAT - @ 12 Noon Eastern

Happily, Greg Burch happened to join us for this chat:

<BruceK> Hi Greg..
<Utnapishtim> I heard. For the vast multitude of female immortalists out there
<BruceK> first time here.. greg?
<Utnapishtim> Hey greg
<kevin> I saw.. and again ... shake my fist in defiance at the powers and their exclusionary policies!
<Greg> yeah
<kevin> hey greg
<Greg> Howdy -- Is Anders here?
<kevin> NAY - not as yet
<BruceK> Haven't heard from him... he may be late...
<Greg> I thought I'd drop by to say howdy to him
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<kevin> well.. sit back.. make yourself comfortable.. and hopefully the wait won't be too long..
<BruceK> ah so you're a friend of Anders?
<Utnapishtim> Kevin: Actually good point: Chestnut should not be speaking too loudly about constitutional violations with her segregationist policies...
<Utnapishtim>
<Greg> Yeah -- I've known the Super Swede for some time now
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<Utnapishtim> Hey Mermiad
<Mermaid> hi
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* BruceK would love to know more of Anders nicknames
<Greg> Well, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you
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<Mermaid> yo chestnut
<BruceK> yikes.. have to pass heh
<kevin> hiya Mermaid... hows the water?
<chestnut> hello mermaid -
<Greg> So -- anyone see the article on tissue regenration in WIRED?
<Mermaid> nice and warm
<BruceK> Greg... by the way.. if you know Anders phone.. you may like to call him and get him to the chat..

<kevin> Renereration Thread - http://imminst.org/f...4&t=2030&hl=&s=
<Greg> Uhmm -- I don't.
<kevin> *Regeneration
<Greg> aha -- thanks
<kevin> it's a VERY cool article..
<chestnut> fyi- i prob will get disconn soon but i'll be watching over BJ's shoulders...
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<Greg> I've been looking for developments in regeneration for some time -- the old work was all pre-genetics, really.
<kevin> there were some talks at the IABG (Haseltine, Brockes, Rosenthal) that all had to do with the same thing as well..
<Utnapishtim> Is Mind joining us?
<Greg> so what're the theories for why "higher" animals lost regenerative capability?
<Utnapishtim> I just saw him listed as browsing the forum
<kevin> I always thought that as the body could heal itself it was only a matter of time before we found out how to hike the rate up..
<Greg> as the WIRED article points out, it's a great evolutionary advantage
<Utnapishtim> someone should PM and invite him to the chat
* BruceK will PM mind
<greeneyed> stress
<kevin> it's only an advantage if you survive to regenerate and procreate.. if whatever caused the initial damage gets the rest of you there's not much point.. clotting and scarring seem to have been a better option...
<greeneyed> the more stress you have the less the body is able to repair itself, at least thats what i think
<Greg> aha -- nasty evolution
<Greg> no concern for the individual
<kevin> yup.. the tiger that got my arm.. probably got the rest of me.. or it's more important that I don't bleed to death than regrow..
<kevin> life's a real grumpy sort sometimes..
<Greg> well, I'm looking forward to some new organs
<greeneyed> yeah it is, but thankfully while we do the damage most of the time, we also have the tools to undo and reverse the damage in most of the cases
<kevin> heh.. I could use a couple at the moment..
<Utnapishtim> I had this notion that baldness and acne be may at least in part, evolutionary adaptions designed to prevent sexually active but pre or post prime males from tangling with the alpha males over the finest women in the tribe
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<Utnapishtim> Hey Mind
<serenade`> Utnapishtim, interesting
<kevin> hmmm.. Ut.. what a nasty thought..
<BruceK> the De Grey vs Sprott debate is well worth it... link on homepage.. you see it Kev?
<Greg> huh -- as a balding alpha, I've got my doubts
<kevin> but possible I guess.. heh
<Mind> hey
<BruceK> welcome Mind.. that was my pm by the way... sorrry
<Utnapishtim> Bruce: I wasn't able to playit
<kevin> hiya Mind.. nice to see you wandered over.. heh
<Utnapishtim> The file woul;dn't open in media player for some reason
<Mind> The members that are online appear on my screen. Is there anyplace to find out who is chatting while online
<BruceK> Aubrey practically steam rolled Sprott... but in his usual calm way... well worth the download if you can
<Mind> You mean the debate is online!!!
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<BruceK> hmm.. Mind this is our weekly chat.. special time
<kevin> Sprott was one of the most FLACCID debaters I've seen.. by the end of the debate he was practically donating to the prize..
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<BruceK> Mind... check the homepage for the link
<Mind> k
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<kevin> yup.. I have the debate saved to an archive file if anyone is interested..
<BruceK> Kev.. .heh.. I thought so to... it was funny when he told Mort that his carrier was CR
<kevin> I know!.. that was pretty amusing..
<kevin> *career
* BruceK wonders if you can get just sound to burn to a ce
<BruceK> cd
<Utnapishtim> KEvin: Thats a pity. Aubtey is a formidable intellect and I was hoping to see a skeptic give him a real workout
<kevin> yup.. you can separate the sound from the file
<kevin> I think his biggest battles are coming..
<Greg> No doubt about that
<Greg> the bioluddites are just getting organized
<kevin> and he'll need all the support he can get from all of us who believe in the purpose and goal of the prize..
<kevin> we've got to get organized BEFORE they can..
* BruceK sent Aubrey an ImmInst T
<kevin> heh.. I think he would really appreciate it!
<Mind> yes...the bioluddites are a threat
<Greg> A problem is that people working on the real science are afraid to talk about the real implications for fear of the Frankenstein Factor
<BruceK> he said 'Thanks'
<Utnapishtim> to what extent are the bioluddites a threat?
<Mind> yes Greg...the Euros already label american food Frankenfood
<Mind> They are a threat to freedom and individual liberty
<Greg> Serious threat -- the political conservatives in the US have already adopted bioluddism as a policy, as have the greens in Europe
<Utnapishtim> Once truly compelling medical applications from currently controversial research become apparent, won't that have a big impact on public opinion
<Mind> maybe
<Mermaid> i think there is way too much food around...frankenfood should be reserved for starving nations where some food will be better than none at all
<Greg> certainly, Utnap, but that will also get the backs of the bioluddites up against the wall and they'll fight like tigers
<Mind> every cause needs supporters, and right now the bioluddites way outnumber us
<Greg> right, Mind
<Utnapishtim> Fighting against good health is gonna be a pretty tough sell
<Mind> you would think
<Greg> the problems is that "health" is being defined t include "natural" aging and death
<Mind> good point greg
<Utnapishtim> There is NOTHING healthy about being old and sick.
<Greg> Fukuyama's new book is leading the charge for the bioluddites
<Utnapishtim> Greg: Well Fukuyama stops short of calling for outright bans doesn't he?
<Greg> Utnap, I agree, but this issue will be one fo the great political and social cleavages of the 21st C.
<Mind> So it would seem one of our greatest challenges is to separate the "death" from "natural & health"
<Greg> Utnap, he does, but he's defining a "respectable" ideological bioluddite position
<Greg> I addressed these issues at Extro 5: http://www.gregburch.net/progress.html
<Utnapishtim> You think the west is hated now just watch what happens when we start gulping down rejuventaion medicines in large quantities!
<Mind> lol
<Greg> Fortunately, the CHinese don't have the West's hangups about death and nature
<Mind> good point Utna...one thing I cannot get my mind around is the mindset...
<Mind> against the "west" and progress right now
<Utnapishtim> Nor can I.. Nor can I
<kevin> I think that when LIFE actually is available for sale.. we will see a shift in the way people view each other.. I may be optimistic but even more than how AIDS drugs are available now in Africa.. I think there would be a great 'guilt' that would make the westernized countries attempt to balance wealth and health globally a little better than thus far.
<Mind> I know about the backlash to the war, but why does this spill over into a backlash against everything else
<BruceK> it's not against progress per say.. it's against specific issues that some people feel the need to fight...
<Greg> I've defined a triad of opposition to progress: I call them Romantic Naturism, The Guradians and the Magicians
<gustavo> Sorry for disagree, I do not think there is a mindset against the west
<Greg> alliances among these three positions are the most dangerous, since arguments against either one can be won
<gustavo> I don't see any symptoms of it
<Greg> Gustavo, I have to disagree strongly
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<gustavo> ok, Greg, please explain
<Mind> refresh my memeory Gustavo, where do you live?
<gustavo> Washington DC
<Mind> ok
<gustavo> I'm from argentina
<Greg> the post-modernist and "multiculturalist" mindset of academia and the mainstream media are very clear to me
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<Greg> and those positions are overtly anti-western
<gustavo> I happen to disagree again!
<Greg> shall we wrestle?
<Greg> :-)
<gustavo> ok, if you want
<gustavo> Muticulturalism, diversity
<gustavo> calls for the existence of radically different life-styles
<gustavo> language games
<gustavo> diversity of goals
<gustavo> it's exactly the kind of culture that makes something like the ImmInst possible
<Greg> that's a nice view of it -- but in practice, science gets identified as "the ideology of dead white men"
<Greg> take a look at: http://www.butterfli...rint.php?num=40
<Greg> "Postmodernism, Science and Religious Fundamentalism" is the name of the article
<Mind> I have to disagree, Imminst is possible because of freedom. We are free to join or leave. There are no diversity quotas here at Imminst and it works just fine.
<kevin> Greg: these must be almost dead white men asserting that.. science is no longer the singular purview of the western countries..
<gustavo> i'll take a look at it
<Greg> Of course it's not, but the multi-cultis have an agenda to push: Science, "dualism", "linear thinking" are all evils identified by the academy with "oppression"
<Utnapishtim> I think multiculturalism is an intellectually and morally bankrupt idea
<Greg> understand, I come from a humanities background
<Greg> if you come from the science side of the academy, you hardly encounter this
<kevin> heh..
<Greg> but policy gets made by people like me -- lawyers, social scientists, etc.
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<Mind> I am not even sure if there is a concrete definition of multiculturalism
<kevin> my sister's a lawyer.. and it's a hard argument when we start discussing the nuts and bolts of life and how they apply to laws and policies
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<Greg> damned lawyers :-)
<kevin> heh..
<gustavo> Mind: there are MULTIPLE definitions of MULTICULTURALISM
<gustavo> that's one of the good things about it
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<kevin> gus: the way I figure it.. diversity is life... any attempts to drive life into ONE constriction is doomed to failure.. multiculturalism is really NOT a dead end.. it is the way out
<Mind> Gustavo, what is taught in US schools nowadays (I know I went to UW-Madison), is that all cultures are equal. No culture is better than any other. Multiculturalism in its extreme form even puts all cultures on a higher plane than the west
<Greg> Kevin, I agree at one level -- the problem is that the idea has been hijacked
<Utnapishtim> I am worried about the strong socialist strain in european politics... The one that views a relative equality of outcomes as a good to be pursued in and of itself. I am worried at the impact this world view will have on the progress of transhumanist technologies in europe
<Greg> UW Madison, the Wisconsin Scholars SOviet
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<kevin> yup.. as most good ideas will be.. it is always difficult to prevent principles from being usurped by the unscrupulous for their own means.. they see something that works and pervert it
<BruceK> Natasha welcome!
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<Greg> Natasha -- how you doing, darling?
<Mind> Equality of opportunity is better than equality of outcomes...you are on the money there Utna
<kevin> dahling?
<Greg> (Hoping it's NVM and not someone I don't know...)
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<Coyote> it is
<Utnapishtim> I evaluate cultures on the extent to which they hinder or facilitate the free flow of goods services and ideas.
<Mind> Me too
<BruceK> dahling = darling
<Mind> more freedom....better culture in my mind
<Greg> "dahlink" to get the old Boris and Natasha accent
<Coyote> Boris and NaStasha
<Utnapishtim> I agree
<Greg> but I think we lost her
<Mind> dahlik for doctor who fans
<Greg> ha
<Greg> never was a dr. who fan -- not available in the US when I was a kid in the Cambrian age
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<BruceK> heh.. how old are you Greg?
<Greg> ancient beyond the reckoning of man
<Greg> 46
<BruceK> ah.. young buck
<Mind> Is Sci-Fi dead?
<kevin> HEY! I just turned 40 Greg.. who you calling ANCIENT!?
<Mind> Is the world changing so fast that it outpaces our ability to create fiction about it
<Greg> well, let's just say I'm keenly interested in the regenration technology...
* BruceK is starting to round off my age at decades now.. as it's easier to remember (30)
<kevin> hey.. time's been taking slices of me for a while now Greg..
<Utnapishtim> I think that one thing we can not turn our back on is that life extension tech.. when it initiallt arrives will be distrbuted along existing wealth and power lines
<Mind> obviously
<Mind> cannot prevent this
<Coyote> The world is changing so fast that reality is indistinguishable from Sci-Fi
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<Mind> good point
<Utnapishtim> and this will sent the developed world as well as guilty white liberals into hysterics
<Utnapishtim> the developing world rather
<Greg> that assumes it will be expensive -- not a bad assumption, but NECESSARILY true.
<Greg> I'm living in the SF of my youth
<kevin> I think most of the concepts and proposals of current physics have been investigate.. the future has arrived and new insights need to be developed for fiction to capture the imagination again.. IMO
<Greg> one problem is that there's a "wall" that's been created with the concept of the Singularity -- it's put a damper on the imagination in some ways
* Coyote at 43 is living in his youth, unexpectedly
<Greg> Coyote -- I seem to go through waves of feeling young and old -- on about a 2-3 year cycle
<Mind> If it is a "one shot" deal (which is probably won't be, but just assume) then the problems will be minimized....but if life extension/enhancement requires continual monetary input for several years then yes...the white liberals will scream
<Coyote> Greg: yes I do to, Ive had that problem since i was about 10
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<Utnapishtim> Then they can show solidarity with the poor of the world and not take it themselves should they so wish. But I'm sure such moral purity will not be enough for them...
<Greg> it's not necessarily a problem -- it may actually be a foretaste of what life will be like for very long-lived individuals
<Mind> I brought up the Sci-fi question because I just saw Matrix 3 and it sucked
<kevin> I have the idea that our brain is MUCH more flexible then previously thought and we are limited by our perceptions... although we certainly don't do math as fast as a computer.. we seem to be very strong at synthesis.. something they can't do very well at all..
<kevin> It will be interesting to see how human-computer interfaces develop and if the brain can develop the agility to adapt to their use.. the singularity may have a more biologically based competition..
<Greg> I've pre-panned the Matrix in my blog: http://gregburch.net...799916184898973
<Utnapishtim> Matrix 3 didn't just suck it actually offended me with its puerile glorification of lemming like faith over reason
<Greg> Utnap -- B I N G O
<jay_> it was awful
<Mind> I was horrible
<kevin> Heh Greg: Do you ride motorcycles?
<Kid-A> well other people 'get it' now
<Greg> Hollywood glorifies romance over reason EVERY time
<BruceK> jeez... that bad, eh
<Greg> Kevin -- I used to -- before I got old
<Mind> after all the philosophizing ...it turned out to be another "Christ story"
<Greg> :-0
<Kid-A> it was very tacky and predictable
* kevin hits greg with an 'old' noodle
<Mind> terrible
<Greg> now I'm a car fanatic
<Greg> two wheels bad, four wheels good
<kevin> the Matrix (3) got '0' kernels of popcorn in on our news coverage..
<Utnapishtim> Well... I didn't think it was gonna be able to give me the answer to the free will vs determism debate. So part III was ALWAYS gonna be something of a let down. They were promising answers western philosophy hasn't been able to deliver in 2500 years
<kevin> Greg.. I'm subject to risk aversion a little more these days than before myself..
<EmilG> Hey, don't knock Matrix 3 *too* much. A SingInst supporter is in the credits.
<Mind> As a stand alone movie (in a different age...say the 90's) it would be an alright action flick (2 stars), but considering the first 2 movies...the third sucked more than a broke Veags whore
<Greg> who?
<Utnapishtim> speaking of tacky. Kill Bill is incredibly tacky but gloriously so. A GREAT movie
<Greg> mind -- lol
<BruceK> no kidding Emil...
<kevin> They obviously didn't let him have his way with the script E.
<EmilG> Durant Schoon of ESC Entertainment did some special effects.
<Greg> I was in Beijing when they were filming Kill Bill there
<Kid-A> i thought the second one was worse
<Greg> got a lot of coverage in the local press
* kevin ashamedly admits his favorite recent film is 'Finding Nemo'
<Kid-A> w00t
<EmilG> kevin: That's mine too. Nothing wrong with that.
<kevin> heh
<Kid-A> its great
<EmilG> And it just came out on DVD.
<Mind> Nemo was entertaining...nothing wrong with that
<Kid-A> but children dont seem to get why its funny
<BruceK> I really liked "Antz"
<kevin> Antz is a great flick too..
<Greg> best SF flick in a long time IMO was "the 13th Floor"
<kevin> Ahhh. .what do children know..
<gustavo> what about "chicken run"?
<kevin> chicken run.. HILARIOUS
<Greg> haven't seen "chicken run"
<jay_> american psycho & wall street
<jay_> wooooooooo
<Kid-A> its a classic
<Greg> huh
<Coyote> channel: what will Anders topic be today?
<kevin> eek.. I used to be a huge horror and thriller fan.. but no longer..
<Mind> If the wacho brothers would have just chose one of the other philosophical endings instead of the "messiah ending" then it would've been tolerable. Like what about matrix within a matrix possibility or the machine human merger possibility?
<Greg> Mind -- the endng they chose shows how intellectually bankrupt Hollywood is, IMO
<Mind> good point
<BruceK> Coyote.. we're still waiting for Anders
<BruceK> but it was to be "What will the Future be like"
<kevin> Coyote: Anders Topic: A Vision of the Future - Anders Sandberg
<Greg> There's NO WAY they can show a positive future for thing like a man-machine merger
<BruceK> or such..
<Coyote> thx
<Kid-A> they just wanted more people to get it
<Mind> could be
<Kid-A> so they have more money
<kevin> They could.. but only as long as humans were in complete control..
<Mind> $$$$$
<Greg> Kid-A -- so they played to the Main Paradigm: Jesus/Savior/Romance over Reason
<gustavo> another very good movie about death and time travelling.... but with a messiah ending also: Donnie Darko. Anybody seen it?
<Mind> nope
<Greg> uh uh
<Ven> Donnie Darko was a great film.
<Coyote> BruceK: also, If I had, known all my typos would be posted on Imnist for the world to see I would have been on my best behavior
<BruceK> so you missed that disclaimer?
<Coyote> ?
<BruceK> just kidding..
<jay_> amelie
<Coyote> yes could you go edit that chat log for me
<BruceK> ah love that french girl
* BruceK runs off to do some fast editing
<kevin> Amelie: everyone's hero..
<Coyote> I thought the character in Amelie was too self absorbed and weak for me to feel a pathos for
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<Kid-A> i'd rather watch delicatessent
<kevin> hmm..that's exactly why I felt pathos.. she was just like me.. weak and self absorbed.. heh..
<BruceK> i had an idea... not movie related.. but anywayz.. print out 30 sheets of paper called '5 second survey'
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<Mind> just to let you know Utna...I responed to your query
<Coyote> kevin: that is something I prefer to keep in denyal about myself
<BruceK> with 5 choices.. 1. i want to live less than 50 yrs... 1. more than 50 less than 70 .. all the way to Forever..
<Coyote> heh
<kevin>
<BruceK> and then ask for an email.. and then send the results to the participants
<kevin> I think it's a pretty interesting idea BJ.. I might try it with the staff at 'the shop'.. they might be up for it..
<Coyote> 1 should be I want to be dead right now
<Coyote> or
<kevin> LOL - > coyote
<Coyote> I died a long time ago
<kevin> now that's funny
<BruceK> yeh.. i think on a larger scale we could do this before the conference in Atlanta.. at the College campus at GA Tech
<BruceK> and announce at the conference...
<Kid-A> i'm dying as we speak
<kevin> I've thought about setting up a 'kiosk' in a mall, if they would allow it, and asking exactly that type of question...
<BruceK> cool... kevin going to start spiking the water soon
<Coyote> 1. Already died 2. I want to be dead right now 3. I want to be dead a different now in the future 4....
<BruceK> heh...
<Coyote> You will attract a few clove smoking Dennys lurking malcontent goth kids with the first few
<BruceK> what's with this goth thing?
<kevin> on another note.. I had an opportunity to talk with Lazarus yesterday by V-Chat through Yahoo messenger.. spoke for about an hour.. he's pretty verbal ..
<BruceK> I don't understand where it came from...
<BruceK> nice. kev.. yeh Laz is quite the spokesperson..
<kevin> (goth = the romanticism of mortality and suffering and the futility of explaining ANYTHING)
<BruceK> did it arise from a movie or a person?
<Coyote> well the adams family and batman had a big part of why us "elder goths" started it all in the 1970's, it has kind of took off from there, the first "goth" song I remember was bella Lugosi is dead by Bauhause
<BruceK> ahh
* Guest3951922 is now known as Mermaid
<BruceK> BeetleJuice?
<Greg> -> completely missed "goth"
<kevin> good one.. I completely AVOIDED goth
<Coyote> I got bored wiht it soon before it was discovered
<kevin> heh..
<kevin> black was never my color
<BruceK> greg.. cool webpage by the way.. just looking at your diving pics
<Greg> I stopped paying attention to pop culture for about 15 years starting around 1979 or so
<Greg> ahh -- thx
<Coyote> heh
* kevin must go have BREAKFAST
<BruceK> seya kev
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<Coyote> ok wheres Anders
<kevin> ciao people.. perhaps Anders will reschedule? or maybe he thinks it's at the regular time?
<Greg> I'm gonna blast that cold fish Anders next time I see him
* EmilG loves music from the 80s and 90s. That is, 1880s and 1890o.
<Greg> ha
<Coyote> ok
<BruceK> greg.. you mind if i ask you a few q's about your ideas on physical immortality?
<EmilG> 1890s.
<kevin> heh -> E.
<Greg> sure -- shoot
<Greg> BANG
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<BruceK> what happens after death.. heh
<Greg> so much for immortality
* kevin is now known as kevin-away
<BruceK> LAZ welcome fella just talking about ya... good stuff all good..
<BruceK> about you and kev on yahoo
<Coyote> what happens TO WHAT after death?
<BruceK> that stuff we're so interested in.. consciousness etc.
<Coyote> oh I guess you become a Goth
<Coyote> heh
<Coyote> sorry
<Greg> after death? flat line, zero, nada, zip
* BruceK nods
<Greg> The Big Sleep
<LazLo> That's OK Bruce I am sure I will get to review it in the record )
<BruceK> therefore one need to do everything to stay alive or protect the information.. rightg?
<Greg> seems that way to me
<BruceK> that was painless
<Greg> ha
<BruceK> you have any friends who feel the same ?
<LazLo> Too bad I t seems like I missed Anders, I forgot about the time change for the chat
<Greg> btw, re my scuba pics -- you can see a couple of early transhumanist/immortalists in rubber suits on the more recent page
<BruceK> cool... i'll check
<Greg> here's one of my faves of natasha: http://www.gregburch...05/IMGA0380.JPG
<BruceK> Anders never showed.. Greg will givem hell next time he sees him
<LazLo> Oh that is a shame have you made sure that you coordinated time zone references with him?
<Coyote> nice tricep
<Greg> you can crack an egg on her butt
<BruceK> Laz.. yep... hince the special time...
<Coyote> wiht permission of course
<Greg> sometimes Anders can fit the absent-minded professor thing to a "T"
<BruceK> eh.. well it's not a problem.. we can always reschedule
<LazLo> I hope "Tosh is listenning to the fine praise of her physique, it is generally a god thing to be approeciated
<BruceK> what are you working on these days Greg?
<BruceK> i like the leopard skin swim suite
<Greg> Oh -- lots of stuff -- you mean professionally?
<BruceK> hmm.. yeh..
<Greg> China's a big part of my current strategic work
* BruceK Greg is now our official chat topic
<Greg> but the bread and butter is mainly construction
<Greg> please -- we'll run out of things to talk about pretty quickly
<BruceK> China is certainly coming along .. especiall with space
<Greg> yeah -- I was sooooooo jazzed by Shenzhou V
<Coyote>  10:14:17 09/11/2003 irc.lucifer.com
<BruceK> do you see a revolution against communism in their future?
<Greg> I want the PRC to take part in the ISS program as soon as possible -- a big dream, but just barely possible
<Greg> not a revolution, but the evolution is real and continuing
<BruceK> PRC?
<Greg> People's Republic of CHina -- standard abb.
<BruceK> ah.. k
<Greg> sorry -- old CHina hand here
<BruceK> china has nuclear right?
<Greg> Oh yeah -- although not as much or as capable as most people think
<Greg> a few 100 warheadsa, no MIRVS, and only one real ICBM
<Greg> no solid-fuled true ICBM
<LazLo> China has H-Bomb and reactor tech, their space program is recycled societ upgraded to more modern specs
<Coyote> well they have silkworms
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<LazLo> soviet ICBM
<Greg> right -- the PLA is concentrating on cruise missile tech
<Greg> Their ICBM -- Long March derivative -- is solely Chinese-designed and made
<Greg> they have no Scud-derivative or other SOv rocket tech
<LazLo> true but the space program is modelled on societ plans
<LazLo> soviet*
<Greg> Yes -- the Shenzhou is definitely Soyuz-derived, but much more capable, actually
<Greg> for instance
<Greg> both the service module and the "orbital module" have solar panels and they are aimable -- not so w/Soyuz
<LazLo> agreed, definitely "an improved model" and the long march is also borrowed IMO
<LazLo> and Jane's
<Greg> hmm -- my main source on China's rocketry is www.astronautix.com -- great stuff there
<Greg> look at the lack of "cluster-nozzle" approach in LM as opposed to Sov designs
<BruceK> so you're looking to help build in china.. greg?
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<Greg> they have much higher-pressure comb. chambers than the russkies
<LazLo> borrowed not copied but more power to them it wasn't a criticism to adapt what was already proven IMO
<Greg> yeah -- getting my nose stuck into as many nooks and crannies in China as possible -- last night I took a vice0-minister of the Min.. of Commerce to see Yao Ming play for the Rockets
<Greg> ironically
<LazLo> lol
<BruceK> wow...
<Greg> Laz -- it was definitely a good choice to start w/ the Soyuz -- they leapfrogged 30 years that way
<BruceK> so most in china speek english?
<Greg> not most by any means (I speak a little CHinese, BTW), but the elites have a lot of English
<LazLo> what about biotech Greg?
<Greg> biotech is BIG in the PRC -- and they don't have a bioluddite faction there AT ALL
<Greg> look for very fast, dramatic developments from China in biotech soon
<LazLo> How are tehy integratign Traditional Medicine with the alopathy they are advancing rapidly in?
<BruceK> that's from their religious perspective.. i would gather... we may see the stem cell revolusion.. and regenerative medicine take off in China... now that'd be pretty ironic
<Coyote> Greg they have had a forward thinking philosophy on the health of the people for a long time
<LazLo> they integrating*
<Greg> yes -- Chinese traditional culture has much, much more receptivity to life-extension than in the West
<Coyote> it has Taoist roots
<Greg> Coyote -- B I N G O
<BruceK> I wonder how ImmInst would play to a Chinese audience
<Greg> still a little too soon -- but I would like to see overtures made when the time is right
<BruceK> say.. the mission is to make death an option..
<LazLo> Is it in part the cultural affinity for ancestor worship having a positive influence on accepting Longevity Tech?
<Greg> things are moving at such a fever pitch right now that getting anyone's attention for very long is hard
<Coyote> BruceK: I think the Libertarian overtones would seem selfish individualism, but the tech is golden
<LazLo> like the west in teh 80's/90's
<Greg> Laz: "filial piety" -- reverence for elders (which is really what so-called "ancestor-worship" is all about) is a great foundation -- in Confucianism, not Daoism, as well
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<Greg> the two together Daoist alchemy/life-extension and COnfucian filial piety are a rich soil for life ext. work in CHina
<LazLo> I'll reprogram my register thanks ) "Filial Piety" ...
<Greg> lol
<Coyote> sheshay
<Greg> of coure, there's a deep conservatism inherent in that filial piety as well -- which is where the tension is -- not "romantic naturism" as in the West
<LazLo> Mao is not dead, he is cryogenicaly awating revivial )
<Greg> n the whole, though, I'm very hopeful that alternative centers for advanced biotech will develop in China as a counterweight to Western cenbters
<Greg> Ugh -- Mao's tomb -- an oppressive weight every time I cruise through Tien An Men Square
<Coyote> Greg: I hope that will spark a competitive interest
<Greg> exactly my hope
<Greg> Americans can't stand to be outdone
<LazLo> It exemplifies the "conservative" aspect of filial piety though
<Greg> Yes, Laz
<Greg> and the fear of the CCP to let go of a symbol of dynastic legitimacy
<LazLo> didn't the Chinese invent the very concept of a dynasty?
<Greg> but when it sinks in that there are HUNDREDS of biotech labs working at full throttle in China, people in the US will have to think twice about being so squeamish
<Coyote> Greg: wouldnt it be wild if filial piety eventualy extended to cryostasis for ALL deceased relatives?
<Greg> Uhmm -- probably not , Laz, it's a natural concept -- Egypt, mesopatamia, as well
<Greg> Coyote -- great idea
<Greg> The ultimate way to be loyal to one's mama and papa -- freeze 'em
<BruceK> hehe
<Greg> I've had positive responses to my cryo necklace in China
<BruceK> Greg did you go to the recent ExtroBrit event?
<Greg> although the circumstances in which it is revealed are usually pretty drunken
<Greg> so it's hard to tell
<Greg> no -- I'm not working in the UK much any more
<BruceK> heh.. cool...
<Greg> I used to be a sort of unifficial transhuman messenger, since I travelled to UK/Europe so much, but now I'm oriented to Asia
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<LazLo> " I'm oriented to Asia" is this a pun?
<Greg> perzacktly
<Greg> one of my favorite CHina blogs is called "disoriented in the Orient"
<LazLo> daoist humor is so circular
<LazLo> they start with the punch line a work backward forever
<Greg> shit -- half the time even when I understand all the Chinese words, I just smile and nod when someone tells a joke over there
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<Greg> explaining humor to each other is only possible with liberal applications of Baijiu -- the jet fuel that passes for liquor
<BruceK> i'm away.. great ot meet you Greg.. i'll email the info about the book project....
<Greg> thnx -- I need to split as well -- let's all agree to grill Anders
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<Coyote> TsiJen
<LazLo> how do the people deal with issues like involuntary organ donation and the popularity of sex selection and social consequence? Is there a long view?
<Jonesey> china is a weird place, basically a huge 3rd world country with tiny industrialized country embedded in it
<BruceK> heh... we'll have to reschedule... take care

[Bruce Klein]

CHAT ARCHIVE: ANDERS - NOV 15


09:18:30 Anders Another test.
09:22:19 Jonesey u passed the test
09:22:49 Anders Being a computer scientist, I never trust software or hardware to work. Or my own abilities to make them work.


09:37:54 Jonesey well ur a computer, not just a computer scientist. programmed by dna that has survived for a long, long time. how do u feel about ur own software and hardware?
09:39:04 Anders Seems to be a kludgey system, but at least Turing-complete. :-)
09:41:20 Jonesey wanna bet?
09:41:31 Jonesey lately in the turing tests a few humans have been failing
09:43:28 Anders Maybe one should turn things around: have a machine try to determine which of the people are human and who is the machine.
09:44:24 Jonesey yep an interesting exercise

10:02:23 Phil Aha! Found you.
10:02:33 Anders Here I am.
10:03:09 Phil I foolishly relied on google to help me find out where the chat would be held.
10:03:39 Anders And did not the Good Loord Google lead you right?
10:04:08 Phil No, the Good Lord Google led me to many pages with "Anders Sandberg" and "Interview", but nothing about this chat.

10:04:21 Phil The WTA doesn't mention individual chats on their webpages.
10:04:59 Anders Yes, I have a large and diffuse net-shadow. Makes it hard to find *me*.
10:05:11 Jonesey where in the world is....
10:05:18 Phil But I shall not lose faith in Google. I am sure it is only the inadequacy of my pitiful search ability. Forgive me for doubting!
10:06:03 Anders Although those IPO rumors makes me a bit nervous about it. As transhumanists we better be proactive and start to think of something even better.
10:07:27 Jonesey u against profit anders?

10:08:25 Anders I would love to see Google Inc become wealthier than MS. But we also need to make sure that the quality of search engines never decreases. They are so essential for everyday intelligence amplification.
10:09:00 Jonesey yep it's not clear ms is amplifying intelligence as fast as bill gates' net worth
10:09:51 Anders Maybe one could have a measure: amplification intensity. "Effective IQ increase" divided by profit.
10:10:40 Anders OK, a better measure is intelligence increase divided by price. Google is pretty amazing in that respect.
10:12:30 Jonesey in terms of physical iq amplification "smart drugs" seem not to have worked out


10:12:45 Jonesey drugs that help say alzheimers patients seem to have no effect on healthy people
10:13:19 Anders Well, ampakines do have effect on memory in healthy people. But in general, even the best smart drugs only give 10-20% improvement in memory.
10:14:11 Anders I think the problem is that we want to improve a complex system using a simple remedy. It only works if there is a simple bottleneck. I doubt there is anything like that for intellgience itself.


10:16:03 Jonesey 10-20% memory would make a huge diff in the performance of a chess master for instance, memorizing opening variations. i'm a bit skeptical because i don't know of such applications of these drugs being attempted...?
10:16:31 Jonesey so maybe kasparov would not have lost to x3d a couple of days ago if he'd taken ampakines??
10:16:38 Anders Chess masters already know enough openings - it is by learning them (and playing a lot) you become a chess master.

10:16:53 Jonesey Not true, at the top level there is a lot of cut and thrust in the opening and memorization is a very big deal
10:17:03 Anders I doubt ampakines would have saved Kasparov. But enhanced general learning is probably very useful.
10:17:21 Anders OK, I must admit that I know little of the details of chess.
10:18:05 Anders My impression is that good chess playing hinges on being able to represent the situation in an useful representation. That is something that takes a lot of slow learning and abstraction.
10:18:09 Jonesey i'm a master myself

10:18:24 Jonesey a 20% increase in memory would be huge
10:18:28 Anders Impressive! As for myself, I'm hopeless.
10:18:42 Jonesey yes, you're right

10:18:48 Jonesey there is a lot of data compression going on there
10:18:52 Jonesey as with human intelligence in general
10:19:11 Phil I'm skeptical of these 10%-20% figures, because one suspects that there is a trade-off. What other cognitive sytsems are working less effectively while memory is getting that extra 10% (whatever that means)?
10:19:15 Jonesey when you look at a position you really are "compiling" it using "strategy/tactics" syntax

10:19:20 Anders The problem with most smart drugs is that they are rather non-specific: they help learning all memories, so that the signal gets rather diluted in noise memories. The most interesting ones influence consolidation.
10:19:55 Phil I have the suspicion that memory and creativity may often be at odds with each other.
10:20:19 Anders The 10-20% figures are just from test results. I don't think there is a real trade-off, rather that we deviate from the *ecological* optimum evolution set us when we were rushing around on the savannah rather than ckicking on computers.

10:20:52 Phil There is the trade-off between cognition and nutrition, and that's where you want to make trade-offs.
10:21:12 Anders As for creativity, there might be some competition: a good memory leaves less room for abstraction and chunking by its particularness and vividness, while a more abstracting memory is great for making broad links.
10:21:48 Jonesey yep there could be a tradeoff, has any such thing been measured?
10:21:52 Anders Nutrition also affects learning: blood sugar has a dose response curve similar to many nootropics - in fact, many work by affecting it.


10:22:27 Anders You could look at the metabolic demands for neural plasticity, although they are currently hard to estimate. But they are likely high: lots of learning costs much energy



10:23:45 Jonesey smoking marijuana must be a great learning experience, it tends to lead to hunger
10:23:57 Jonesey That's what I heard, not personal experience....of course
10:24:42 Anders :-) Actually, marijuana seems to have memory impairing effects due to a very curious synaptic interaction Cannabinoids seem to be involved in the regulation of synaptic plasticity, perhaps to keep it from becoming too high.
10:25:38 Anders The most useful memory enhancer would be a working memory enlarger. If that could be achieved, we would get a big effect on effective intelligence.


10:26:06 Anders I.e. I mean something to enhance working memory. Capacity is not really a problem in long term memory.
10:27:02 cyborg01 Writing things on paper or screen may help=)
10:27:04 Jonesey those drugs u mentioned don't enlarge working memory?
10:27:11 Anders Actually, the dopamine systems do seem to affect working memory. But messing with them is dangerous.
10:27:15 Jonesey eh cyborg?
10:27:24 cyborg01 Increase working memory
10:27:44 Jonesey yup cyborg01 just kidding


10:27:54 Anders Most memory drugs only seem to help long term memory, but there are a few that may help wm through attention effects. Mostly it is about experimental design: working memory is a bit harder to measure well.
10:28:22 Anders Cyborgisation of memory - through paper etc - is a good idea. Much more efficient in most cases han chemicals.

10:29:18 cyborg01 Maybe in the evolutionary sense there isn't much point in juggling too many things at the same time
10:29:33 Phil I suspect that our tiny tiny working memory is that way because of search space limitations.
10:29:49 Anders Yes, evolution has not prepared us for much multitasking. This is where we need to redesign ourselves or our environments.


10:30:17 Phil Search is at least exponential in the number of things in working memory. The size of the search space in a 7-element working memory is vastly larger than that in a 5-element working memory.
10:30:25 Lukian Lukian is now known as SunburntSliderShowering

10:31:11 Anders Humans seem to have a *vast* working memory compared to most other animals, including monkeys. So I'm rather hopeful that the basic architecture (whatever it is) can be expanded fairly simply in evolutionary terms. We just need to reverse engineer it.
10:31:20 Phil You would have to know more to work out the numbers, but it may turn out that, say, tripling the size of our working memory, and continuing to compute using the same algorithms, would require more computing power than exists in the solar system.

10:31:37 Jonesey hm

10:31:56 Anders WM is likely not *that* exponential, but it is hard to know.
10:32:03 Phil "Working memory" being a bit of a vague term here... How would you define WM?
10:32:41 Anders I usually mean WM as the memory system we use to hold current situation/task data in to guide ongoing or near future behavior.

10:33:00 Jonesey yep digit memory is one example, or in chess ability to memorize a position
10:33:04 Phil Anderson says WM = the set of activated elements in memory. But since every element has a different level of activation, EVERYTHING is in working memory. It's just that a few things are very much in working memory, and many things are a little bit in working memory.


10:33:16 Anders I made a model of the monkey delayed response oculomotor task which scaled very nicely. I just hope the brain uses it :-)
10:33:37 cyborg01 Theory usually posit that WM is stored in prefrontal cortex
10:33:48 Anders One can distinguish between the memory system (likely prefrontal stuff) and the set of activated representations (like recalling an old memory)


10:34:00 Phil I don't think memories move around in the brain.
10:34:18 Anders Well, in the case of memory consolidation there seems to be some evidence that they do move around.
10:34:24 Phil Prefrontal cortex may be involved in connecting the disparate elements of an experience.
10:34:42 Phil Can you tell me alittle bit about memories moving around?
10:34:54 Anders You can see how an experience first activates sensory cortices, then gets a representation in the hippocampus, and during sleep gets transferred permanently to cortex again.


10:35:45 Anders The hippocampus gets input from nearly everywhere, and seems to make a context (PFC may be doing that too). Then these representations get reactivated during deep sleep to train the cortex with long term memories.
10:35:48 Phil Information gets relayed up from sensory cortex, sure. Do you mean that there is a full representation in the hippocampus, before the memory is created in cortex?



10:36:21 Anders There are some dissenters to this model (originally due to Marr, major dissenters Nadal and Moscowitch) who think the hippocampus is always important.


10:36:57 Anders The hippocampus likely only has a compressed snapshot or even an index. I tend to think of it as a hash of the memory. The real information has to be stored in the hippocampus-cortex connections.
10:38:05 Phil The hippocampus is this tiny little thing, and it has so much cortex to answer to... poor hippocampus.
10:38:21 cyborg01 Anders you're working on a temporal lobe thesis?
10:38:27 Anders Yes, poor hippocampus. No wonder it is so sensitive.
10:38:54 Anders Well, my thesis was supposed to be about the temporal lobe. But the network I used became the main thing, and it ended up being a general memory model thesis.


10:39:04 cyborg01 I think the temporal lobe probably stores a lot of episodic memories
10:39:51 Phil I have heard that people learn at a constant rate of about 2 bits per second. So I suppose it's possible that all information is at one time represented in the hippocampus. Though I had always thought of it just in terms of registering simultaneous activations, telling some area somewhere else to remember whatever it was being exposed to, more of a control structure than a memory relay. I really don't know much about it.


10:39:59 Anders The temporal lobe seems to be important for episodic memories, yes. They seem to be stored across the entire cortex, but without the hippocampus hey won't get laid down.
10:40:32 Phil THe temporal lobe definitely is essential in vocabulary... specific words are associated with specific spots.
10:40:38 cyborg01 Damage to the temporal lobe causes (TGA) transient global amnesia.. a person loses all his idendity for a while


10:40:51 Anders My theory is that the hippocampus is important just as a bottleneck - you can regulate what gets long term encoded by regulating it. Hindsight is always 20/20.
10:41:04 Phil We should develop an ontology for knowledge representation based on the distribution of vocabulary words in the temporal lobes.


10:41:27 Anders Vocabulary is likely due to the language areas on the superior part; never gone there myself (I'm medial :-)
10:41:31 Jonesey huh? how do we know what that distribution is?
10:41:51 Phil Well, back to WM, the question is, Is WM stuff that's moved back into the hippocampus, or is it stuff that is still in the cortex where it was stored?


10:42:05 Anders TGA is interesting. I think it is because the disruption of the attractors because of losing such a key region makes the entire attractor across cortex unstable.


10:42:25 Phil Primariy, Jonesy, by studies of brain-damaged patients who have small areas of damage in temporal lobe.
10:42:49 Anders The old view is that first things get to WM and then to the hippocampus and then to the rest of memory. Now we know stuff can go directly to hippocampus outside of wm.
10:42:54 Jonesey how precise can you get though? what's the location of "sex"?
10:42:55 Phil They tend to lose particular classes of words. For instance, a patient might lose all vocabulary words for vegetables, or for man-made tools.


10:43:31 Phil Can't get that precise.
10:43:48 Anders In most cases there is no single location, but a networked system. Sex involves the hypothalamus (preoptic area etc), some brainstem nuclei (reflexes), some spinal stuff and a lot of cortical cognitive and emotional systems.
10:44:06 Phil I think he means, retrieval of the word.



10:44:27 Phil Patients with temporal lobe damage who are unable to retrieve words in the studies I'm talking about, still understand the concepts, and recognize the objects.


10:44:38 Anders Ah, I'm too literal. My guess is that the word "sex" is actually a network spread out across some cortical areas, with links to interesting places.


10:45:39 Anders How we represent and especially recognize sequences (like words) is one of the big mysteries in neuroscience and neural networks. It is really tricky to do well.
10:45:58 Phil Re. sex: I was noticing that things tend to be located in the brain WRT the potential for damage. For instance, every sensory system sends input to something on the other side of the head, and motor systems are controlled by things from the other side, too.


10:46:18 cyborg01 I may do a project in sequence learning soon
10:46:30 Phil So that if you're being attacked by something, and it hits you in the head, it will damage the sensors and muscles that you don't need right at that moment.


10:46:31 Anders Cool, sequence learning is something that we need to solve.
10:46:33 cyborg01 Though I'm not really interested in that topic =(
10:46:54 Phil SO the question came up: What is the most protected thing in the cortex?
10:46:57 cyborg01 Temporal sequences


10:46:57 Anders Yes, sequence learning is also boring, I admit that. But I want everybody else to work on it :-)
10:47:26 Anders In the cortex ? The insula. Old area, does sensory stuff with visceral feelings, a bit of emotion and much "gut feeling" stuff.
10:47:42 cyborg01 What do you think is responsible for temporal sequence learning?
10:48:01 Anders Actually, the cortex works well by being very distributed. No particular weak spot, except perhaps the hippocampus.
10:48:04 cyborg01 What do you mean 'protected'

10:48:11 Phil THe insula is well-protected, but I'm talking about the bit on the inside of the parietal lobes, right in the middle of the brain but still cortex.
10:48:21 Phil It turns out to be the sense of feeling in the genitals.
10:48:40 Anders On the inside of the parietal? I don't know what you mean, unless you refer to some of the deep visual systems.


10:49:06 Phil The bit that is sandwiched between the two havles of the brain.
10:49:11 Anders As for sequences, I think some kind of hierarchical scheme is necessary. Some units allowing or preventing each other from going to the next state or group of states.


10:49:35 Anders Ah, you mean the cingulate gyrus. Lots of emotion and motivation in that one. Or do you mean the cuneus?
10:49:42 cyborg01 Is recurrent connections important for that
10:50:13 Anders Yes, we likely need a lot of recurrent connections. But there has to be some more; just making everything recurrent doesn't work well.

10:50:50 cyborg01 Yeah.. its probably a whole-brain thing.. again
10:51:29 Anders One way of seeing how strange sequences are is to note that we can easily recognize them at different speeds (wrecks most neural network schemes). We can easily do movmements that we have learned at a slower speed faster, (the reverse is not true)


10:52:08 Anders Several people think that the cerebellum is the key for sequences. Very regular architecture, must be good for something. But most schemes I have seen have not been impressive.
10:52:25 cyborg01 Hmm.. that's very complicated stuff... exactly why I don't want to wreck my brain with it
10:52:32 Phil Hell, Anders, I don't remember all that latin stuff! I mean the sensory cortex along the central sulcus that's in between the two halves. ANyway it's just an amusing tidbit.

10:53:30 Phil Sequencing is tough, timing is tougher.

10:53:31 Anders :-) I know the feeling - brain geography is rather messy. But the basic architectural issues are probably interesting in their own right. I would bet that the cortex is just a general computing module repeated again and again, perhaps just with some kind of sequence learning/recognition/recreation function.

10:53:34 cyborg01 That part is probably not meant to be protected.. its just the way cortex folds when it expaned
10:53:48 Phil "Meant to be"?

10:54:00 Anders In nature, if you get hit so hard that part of your cortex breaks, then you will likely die from a hematoma anyway.

10:54:20 Anders Timing, yes that is another proposed task for the cerebellum.
10:54:33 Phil You can get shocks that disrupt processing. Just like when boxers see stars.
10:54:36 cyborg01 -- its not under selective pressure
10:55:19 Anders It is amazing how much stuff brain processing can survive. But then again, if it didn't evolution would not have wasted 40% of our metabolism on them.

10:55:47 Jonesey heh but evolution didn't reckon on prime time TV
10:55:54 Phil Well, everything is under selective pressure, so if we observe a particular feature that does in fact cause something useful to happen, that is what is relevant.
10:56:14 Phil It doesn't make sense to say "It does that, but it's just by accident."
10:56:15 Anders Yes, that is our solution to mental redundancy.
10:56:25 Jonesey heheh

10:57:11 Anders In general evolution is a bit hard to use as an argument - you either sound teleological, or you end up saying "thats just the way it is". Arguing with evolution*right* is hard.

10:57:51 Phil Anders, what percentage of people in Sweden believe in evolution?
10:58:10 Anders I think nearly all do, creationists are far between.
10:58:44 Phil Sigh. <envy>

10:59:25 Jonesey the usa is by far more religious than any other industrialized country
10:59:30 Anders Well, I think one reason for that is the general post-religiosity in Sweden. People are not proud of being religious, it is seen as a bit old fashioned.

10:59:36 Jonesey and quite a few 3rd world places too
10:59:41 Anders Yes, the US is unique.


11:00:01 Jonesey there is theoretical freedom of religion but actually it's quite oppressively christian
11:00:39 Anders One interesting effect of having the subject religion taught in schools is hat even if many teachers are christians, most students do get a realization that there exists other ways of seeing the world.
11:00:41 Phil I just googled... 45% of Americans believe that the world was created as described in GEnesis.
11:00:49 Phil About 28% believe in evolution.

11:01:06 Jonesey yes this sounds about right from my experience
11:01:14 Jonesey this is a big headache for transhumanism
11:01:16 Anders On the other hand, how many of them *actually* would believe in an important situation?


11:01:29 Tigersclaw Isn't it a very big difference between the southern states and the northern i the USA?
11:01:38 Jonesey the biggest and richest economy is populated by a lot of scientific illiterates
11:01:52 Jonesey No Tigersclaw, not so big I don't think.

11:02:07 Phil 83% of Americans believe in the Virgin Birth!
11:02:15 Phil I could Google all day.
11:02:22 Anotherswede Hehe

11:02:49 Anders I think transhumanism can get ahead well by not constantly banging its head against the "surface" issue of evolution when we wncounter fundies. Instead we should promote the essential humanist ideas that we can overcome our limits etc Even put it a bit tolerantly (if you think God is helping you in this, fine). Evolution comes after tyou have established that you are a decent guy.


11:02:50 Tigersclaw Ok.. Got the feeling that the southern parts of USA are devout christians, while the northern parts are more ateist.
11:03:28 Jonesey not really, lots of fundamentalists in the "midwest" for instance
11:03:43 Jonesey the northeast is a bit less fundamentalist
11:03:51 Phil I'm trying to find out, Tigersclaw, but I can't seem to make Google do an "AND" search.
11:03:59 Anotherswede Science evolved from faith in western society. Now, the two are distinct. There is a kinship, however.
11:04:24 Phil When I give it a bunch of phrases to search for, it returns pages that have some of those phrases, instead of only pages with all those phrases.

11:05:01 Anders Well, the evolution of science is a rather tangled affair. And a scientific worldview does take effort to gain - but it does give some good advantages. The problem is that (just like many religions) these advantages are hard to see from the outside.

11:05:08 Jonesey superstitions were the first attempt at science yep
11:05:09 Anotherswede Put quotation marks around the words, and you'll force Google to search for the exact phrasing
11:05:14 Tigersclaw Ok... Tried using quotationsmarks?
11:05:27 Phil Yes, but try searching for 3 different quoted phrases.
11:05:55 Phil You'll get back pages with just 2 of them in it. Trying 'percentage Americans "believe in evolution" "southern states"' returns partial matches.

11:05:57 Tigersclaw Google accepts: "All those word must be present" or Either of these word must be present.
11:06:18 Anders The key to science is really evolutionary knowledge: the idea that we can learn, and that even mistakes and failures give us information - things don't have to be perfectly known in order to be studied or understood better and better. Then you just have to systematize the knowledge, and you start doing real science.
11:06:35 cyborg01 Do you know how to make google display more lines on the summary page?
11:06:56 Jonesey david deutsch's "fabric of reality" makes that point anders, very well


11:06:58 cyborg01 I mean more tid bits from the sites found
11:07:06 Phil Google accepts "and" between words, but there is no "all of these phrases must be present". You can specify only one "exact phrase" clause in Advanced Search.

11:07:12 Jonesey analogy between the scientific method a la popper(conjectures/refutations) and evolution
11:07:17 Anders Ah, here is another aspect of science: the collaborative aspect. Just like the google discussion - knowledge is enhanced among many people at the same time.


11:07:21 Phil Google needs regular expressions.
11:07:30 Anotherswede Another thing with science is not to shy away from answers that you don't like. Look at the Mpembe effect.

11:07:39 Jonesey google not getting enough fiber..
11:07:52 Anders Yes, I see it all the time as one big whole: Popper's epistemology, evolution and of course the emergence of the mind in the brain.

11:07:59 Phil Mpembe effect?

11:08:04 Tigersclaw Sorry, Phil, I meant is as an example how you must type to get different results.
11:08:21 Anders Mpembe effect: hot water freezes faster than cold.
11:08:37 Phil Um. It does?

11:08:47 Anotherswede Anders beat me to it answering that one ...
11:08:52 Tigersclaw In certain circumstances at least?


11:09:07 Anders Under some circumstances. It is a bit complex really, but it is a good story about it (and who Mpembe is) in the sci.physics FAQ.
11:09:12 Phil Hot water can't freeze faster than cold water that used to be equally hot hot water but that you just started freezing.


11:09:46 Anders There are issues of convection, evaporation, heat conductance with the cooling element etc.
11:10:01 Jonesey depends on the pressure a bit also
11:10:27 Anotherswede Bye.
11:10:34 Jonesey mkolo mpembe?


11:10:46 Anders Ah, yes. I must be going soon - I have a radio program to record with Anotherswede.
11:10:51 Jonesey there's an african loch ness monster, called mkolo mbembe
11:10:58 Phil Who was that masked Swede?


11:11:07 Jonesey ivory coast i think
11:11:19 Phil Nick?

11:11:22 Anders Interesting, I didn't know about the monster. Mpembe might be a common name. He was from Tanzania, so it is likely Swahili.


11:11:52 Anders Actually, Anotherswede was Håkan Andersson. Pol.sci major, lawyer, social democrat transhumanist and general nice guy.


11:12:21 Anders He tells me that he is just a crazy leftie.
11:12:44 cyborg01 OK anders.. cya.. [wn you have time don't forget to put my page on your site]=)
11:13:06 Anders CYA! And yes, I will update my pages. I promise! :-)

11:13:08 Phil Sometimes I think that in thirty years, we will all be speaking Swedish...
11:13:17 cyborg01 Hehe
11:13:21 Tigersclaw

11:13:40 Anders And here we think everybody will be speaking English. Hopefully we will be speaking both - and Mandarin, Spanish, Rätoromanich and Latin.
11:14:10 Phil Perhaps learnign languages is one of the most transhumanistic things one can practically do at the present.
11:14:35 Phil Plus learnign to type.

11:14:40 cyborg01 Nahh.. everything would be machine translated pretty soon
11:15:50 Tigersclaw Anders has just left the building...


11:16:56 Phil Is there a way to retrieve the "Real name" from the nickname?
11:17:10 Jonesey the patriot act...?
11:17:29 Phil A more basic question is, How do you use the HELP function on this chat environment?
11:17:42 Tigersclaw Nope, maybe the DNS but since you don't have to write your realname when you logon, it cannot be retrieved.


11:18:02 Phil I did... there was a field for the nickname, and a field for the real name.
11:18:39 Phil I can type '/HELP', which lists commands, but '/HELP USERS' does nothing.
11:18:48 Tigersclaw Cya...
11:19:02 Jonesey l8r Tigersclaw

11:20:13 Phil So, who are you you folks? I'm Phil Goetz. Do I know any of you?
11:20:40 cyborg01 I have my name in my whois=)
11:21:00 cyborg01 My web site --> http://www.geocities.com/softuploading
11:21:17 cyborg01 I gotta run... cy'all later
11:21:51 Phil OK, bye!
11:22:01 cyborg01 Bye=)