18:00:40 BJKlein * BJKlein Official Chat Starts
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18:00:57 BJKlein Topic: Vyffs talk ACC2003 whoop!
18:01:12 BJKlein Shannon did you meet Anissimov there?
18:01:26 shannon too bad this isn't all video, complete with sound! We did have a bit of a problem with that technology at the conf. as some of you may have heard! We could hear butnot see Kurzweil, are their any other people here who attented Acc. Change Conf.?
18:02:03 kirks So BJ, I had a question in the email forum the other day
18:02:16 kirks regarding wether or not immortality was an ESS
18:02:39 kirks and your reply was to the effect of was not human life the game goal
18:02:52 kirks and I responded by saying that I tend not
18:02:58 Lucifer I'm here to find out what happened at ACC because I couldn't attend
18:03:07 kirks to arrogate myself above the environment that "created" me
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18:03:13 ChanServ Mode change [+o BJK] on #immortal by ChanServ
18:03:42 BJKlein kirks, if you'd like you can PM me
18:03:51 kirks k
18:04:04 BJKlein Shannon and Darren shall have to floor
18:04:07 DarrenVyff DarrenVyff (~Java@[death to spam].adsl.187.122.willamette.net) has joined #immortal
18:04:10 shannon There were a lot of engaging, forward thinking people there, a great beginning...
18:04:13 BJKlein * BJKlein bows to Darren
18:04:19 DarrenVyff Hello!
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18:04:40 DarrenVyff The mad dash dow river road to another terminal
18:04:58 lazlo So to start with there were technical problems at an emerging tech conference, well no surprise there as we are those that are pushing the envelope but it is disconcerting to those that we are trying to instill confidence in. BJ are you moderator this evening?
18:05:58 Lucifer I've noticed technical problems at every technical conference I've attended
18:06:25 DarrenVyff You must have mentioned the non-functional 3d telepresence imager for Dr. Kurzweils presentation...
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18:06:59 lazlo Shannon alluded to it
18:07:06 BJKlein Laz, feel free to lead this if you feel up to it..
18:07:15 BJKlein i'll interject humor and wit on occasion
18:07:15 Lucifer How many people attended ACC?
18:07:47 lazlo Naw I will have to leave in a few minutes too but I didn't want ot interrupt and I thought you might have some prepared questions
18:08:03 DarrenVyff It was a small group I dont remember hearing the exat number but I would guess no more than 200 or so
18:08:05 BJKlein * BJKlein has a million questions
18:08:20 shannon I did an informal head count of 250
18:08:32 Lucifer What were the highlights of the conference from your point of view?
18:08:39 BJKlein Do you guys rememeber seeing a young fella by the name of Michael?
18:08:54 DarrenVyff What was his last name?
18:09:02 lazlo HOw was the conference set up as competing lectures or were they sequetial and allin one place?
18:09:12 BJKlein Anissimov
18:10:17 shannon No I don't remember him. There were two sessions competing, some of the times
18:10:45 DarrenVyff It was split about equal between breakouts involving 2 different speakers in separate rooms and then consolidated speeches in one main room
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18:11:41 lazlo Where there floor exhibits in booths or all presentations?
18:11:51 DarrenVyff the beginning lecture was set up in a debate fashion (which was also where the 3d telepresenter was a failure) but luckily it was really the only speech set up in a debate style
18:12:13 DarrenVyff No floor exhibits
18:12:25 lazlo And how do you feel about the competing presentation concept?
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18:13:26 DarrenVyff I personaly thought it had a potential to be good but the moderation job was poorly handled
18:13:50 lazlo how & why?
18:14:04 Guest1 test
18:14:07 BJKlein interesting.. as ImmInst has aspirations for a yearly conference.. this feedback can be helpful
18:14:33 Guest1 OK, Shannon, that guest1 would be janthepayne
18:15:00 BJKlein jan.. to change your nick.. type '/nick jan'
18:15:07 DarrenVyff Due to all the technical issues with the telepresenter the speech started late with Dr Kurzweil, so Michael Denton was squeezed into 1/2 the time he was alloted
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18:15:27 DarrenVyff then the same with Ikka Tuomi
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18:15:58 BJKlein which presentation stood out as good? and why?
18:16:18 DarrenVyff Oh wow, lots :-)
18:16:23 shannon yeah
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18:16:49 BJKlein which one spoke to your interests?
18:16:55 DarrenVyff I personally loved seeing Tim O' Reilly speak just because without his books Id be lost
18:16:56 Guest2 hi darren this is beth
18:17:00 shannon I was impressed with Tim O' Reilly's presentation...
18:17:01 DarrenVyff Hi mom
18:17:02 DarrenVyff !
18:17:06 shannon lol
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18:17:21 lazlo I have long thought that all the conferences should be simulcast on the web with recording so that playback would be more easily achieved as was teh case for part of the WTA 2003 conference at Yale. I was glad to be able to hear a few presentations that I missed even though I was there in a different room though it was much later. Will these be webcast too eventually?
18:17:21 Jonesey what's ACC2003?
18:17:31 Guest2 I'm going to listen & learn
18:17:42 shannon I heard that they will be
18:17:49 shannon I have not check the site to see the dates
18:17:52 BJKlein Accellerating Change Conference 2003
18:18:15 Jonesey sounds like kurzweil all right
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18:18:30 lazlo Good I am looking forward to hearing John Smart speak again
18:18:31 DarrenVyff Yes hopefully so -- to give them credit this was their first so I definitely think they wil have many more bugs worked out by next year
18:19:28 shannon O'Reilly's presentation was animated, but he showed how the web can be a powerful tool for societal change, by getting out messages instantly without the filter of the media
18:19:50 DarrenVyff Yes John was very engaging and well spoken-his presentation had one of the other technical glitches
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18:21:30 BJKlein Shannon, this is so true.. yet there's a bottle neck now with speed and technical problems on the internet..
18:21:56 shannon Christine Petereson, the president of the Foresight Institute, was inspiring in what she has done to increase the public's awarenesso n nanotech's potential environmental and medical benefits
18:22:12 BJKlein did you guys get the feeling from the conference that some things you though would take longer.. will happen in a shorter time frame?
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18:23:37 DarrenVyff I was impressed with how many near successful AI projects there are and the several differing ways each team is approaching this goal and for what initial purpose
18:23:38 shannon I was sad to see that Nanotechnology is not yet to the revolutional stage, but I was amazed with the advanced in Artificial Int.
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18:24:27 janthepayne Hmm, and Nanotechnology serves what purpose?
18:24:49 lazlo 5I get the feeling Drexler has mixed feelings abouthe hype on nanotech that is now racing through the media, at least from his current interview in U.S. News & World reports
18:24:50 BJKlein would you guys consider a hard take off to the singularity possible.. for example.. when we reach human level AI intellignece.. we will see a fast singularity happen..
18:24:59 shannon Marocos Guillen, of Artificial Devolopment, talked about their 65,000 pentiumn computer, neural network, that will have the int. of a small mammal
18:24:59 DarrenVyff The building of structures from the molecular level up
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18:25:23 BJKlein Jan, Nanotech will be an important tool for helping humans live better and longer lives
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18:25:50 janthepayne Thanks
18:26:27 John_Ventureville test
18:26:42 BJKlein welcome john-v
18:26:51 John_Ventureville thank you
18:27:00 DarrenVyff Definitely lazlo--she was very upset at the misuse of the word nanotechnology-specifically mentioning the new "nano-pants" supposedly stain resistant because of nanotechnology
18:27:11 shannon well, through being able to fix things on a cellular level...
18:27:31 DarrenVyff and with the general bandying about of the word without understanding of its meaning
18:27:42 BJKlein did you guys see Drexler's speech as well?
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18:28:21 DarrenVyff Yes--did we both see it shannon? I cant remember...
18:28:30 lazlo an awful lot of basic physical chemistry is being repackaged as Nanotech and consumer are buying it like bottled water, or should I say dehydrated water
18:28:39 John_Ventureville lol
18:28:39 DarrenVyff lol yes
18:28:59 John_Ventureville "making physical chemistry sexy!*
18:29:02 shannon Yes she and Kurzweil bemoaned the view members of congress even have on nanotechnology, things that have been called that, as it has become a buzz word, in order to get funding, when in fact they are way larger than the scale of real nanotechnology
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18:29:56 John_Ventureville grrrr....
18:30:03 DarrenVyff
http://www.almaden.i...mages/stm10.jpg 18:30:06 shannon Yes, Drexler, I suppose did the same speech he has done before, as our friend Peter Voss, was not quite impressed
18:30:19 BJKlein Did you guys see Nick Bostrom's presentation.. founder of the World Transhumanist Assoc.
18:30:37 DarrenVyff that is a basic image of IBM spelled out nost of you have probably seen it but I wanted to show for general idea of true nanotech
18:30:52 John_Ventureville It's hilarious watching Anders Sandberg and Nick Bostrom have a conversation.
18:30:53 John_Ventureville lol
18:30:55 hkhenson re
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18:31:09 BJKlein john_v.. why so?
18:31:36 shannon I did not see Nick's presentation
18:32:04 lazlo 12Now that I would like to see ! Who got the last word Anders or Nick?
18:32:05 John_Ventureville it's like watching two old men in a park who are best pals (but have incredible intellects) get into playful arguments, though you know they have a keen respect for each other
18:32:27 DarrenVyff No we did it was the second debate between Dembski, Bostrum and the ex-gov of Oregon...
18:33:04 shannon oh, yeah...
18:33:12 BJKlein any talk about physical immortality?
18:33:15 shannon they were not flowing that well
18:33:55 DarrenVyff Not so much realy beyond Dr. Kurzweils take on it
18:34:10 shannon Only in the nano tech discussions, and not really in depth, implications on society
18:34:22 BJKlein Kurzweil talked about the uploading prospect, i suppose?
18:35:00 shannon John Smart, talked of immortality a bit, he was quite optomistic
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18:35:24 BJKlein Smart did really? Do you remember specifically in what context?
18:35:35 DarrenVyff yes, nut only briefly because the focus was on debate wit his speech so he spent most of his time debunking Ikka Tuomis paper
18:35:39 shannon yes he did, but in no new contexts than what is already out there
18:36:25 BJKlein maybe thus as an implied goal ? or just as a possibility?
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18:36:59 shannon yeah, late night while we were waiting for Howard Bloom to come on (audio from NY, he was a wealth of ideas) John Smart just made some jokes about it really...
18:37:00 DarrenVyff Most of his speech was a very animated "what-if" scenario of 2 people watching the beginnings of the universe trying to show that amazing almost unpredicatble change happens
18:37:19 lazlo I expect many of the presenations were pro/con the Singularity issue as well as general timetables: is that a valid assumption?
18:37:38 shannon yes
18:37:50 DarrenVyff I didnt feel that way really
18:38:01 BJKlein physically Darren?
18:38:06 Anand Does anyone have a penultimate draft copy of the Transhumanist FAQ?
18:38:09 DarrenVyff I thought most of the speaches dealt more with the speakers individual projects
18:38:16 BJKlein Anand..yes
18:39:01 shannon lots of argument about singularity, at least each taked of how it affected their field, I believe, Scott Hunt even talked of Moral Singularity, when technology takes off, so will our compassion
18:39:01 DarrenVyff the 1 hour speeeches with short Q/As were frustrating
18:39:11 DarrenVyff Yes thats true
18:39:21 DarrenVyff of the definition of singulatrity
18:39:25 hkhenson sigh. Wish I could have been at that conference. I sort of own a house in Palo Alto
18:39:51 shannon yes, the Q/A's were all shut off, and the conf was running over on time... but hey we all got free lunch both days because of it :-)
18:39:54 John_Ventureville Did anyone state when a singularity might most likely happen?
18:39:55 hkhenson which I have not been inside for about 2.5 years
18:40:20 John_Ventureville score! (you can't beat a free lunch)
18:40:25 hkhenson christen peterson has been putting a date on it recently
18:40:25 shannon No one gave a date lol ;-)
18:40:41 John_Ventureville lol
18:40:58 DarrenVyff For all the AI people t was certainly when AI is as smart or smarter than a human then the singulrity will happen very rapidly
18:41:24 DarrenVyff they were predicting 20-30 years -- Ill try to look it up on the PP presentation..
18:41:30 John_Ventureville ok
18:41:32 shannon well, I saw aproximations of time 30 years out for some of the AI people, to 10 years for some of the software people
18:41:35 DarrenVyff * DarrenVyff shuffles through his folder
18:42:10 John_Ventureville so when I am old and grey the computers will be on the verge of getting uppity with their creators
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18:42:25 hkhenson it is going to take more than one human equal AI to have much effect compared to 10,000 or so human researchers
18:42:44 shannon Keith Devlin has some interesting ideas on the end of information, killed by the technologies that were developed to handle it...
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18:42:52 hkhenson on the other hand, cranking them out fast . . . .
18:43:01 shannon He thought in twenty years
18:43:29 DarrenVyff John Smart predicts the Tech Singularity at 2060
18:43:40 John_Ventureville Keith, but think where that AI tech will be ten years from when the first human equivalent AI is built.
18:43:49 Anand What a lamer *grin*
18:43:53 John_Ventureville 2060!!!!!!!
18:43:57 DarrenVyff but the dawn of the symbiotic at 2020
18:44:12 shannon Well the general assumption is that with in a very short time they would way surpass human processing
18:44:20 John_Ventureville why does smart think it will take so dang long?
18:44:22 DarrenVyff there are several other different singularities in between
18:44:27 John_Ventureville *Smart*
18:44:28 hkhenson of course, human intelligence is cranked up by machines.
18:45:03 hkhenson it is remarkable how much better I can do with google here to help.
18:45:04 John_Ventureville once those machines gain access to nano to make their ideas real......
18:45:15 John_Ventureville "I sure hope they're friendly!"
18:45:24 hkhenson ah friendly, good point.
18:45:44 hkhenson I think that endowing AI with human type motivations would be a good idea
18:45:47 shannon There was a lot of talk of top down vs. bottem up AI...
18:45:55 lazlo Smart is basing his ideas on longer term evolutinary trends from what I gathered in conversatin with him, he also sees some forces of resistence
18:45:58 hkhenson the better human motivations that is. :-)
18:46:06 DarrenVyff there was a lot of discussion on that subject will the AI like us or see us as cattle to be herded
18:46:24 John_Ventureville I am very self-centered in that I want a singularity before my body wears out from aging
18:46:34 DarrenVyff Dont we all
18:46:45 hkhenson I think AI will be built with human motivations such as the desire to rise in status amoung their human peers.
18:46:56 John_Ventureville so we better have a friendly and productive singularity NO LATER THEN 2040.
18:47:17 hkhenson hmm. fer me make that no later than 2030
18:47:23 Anand John: Then start fundraising
18:47:26 John_Ventureville how old are you Keith?
18:47:29 DarrenVyff tomorrows always god for me
18:47:30 hkhenson 61
18:47:34 John_Ventureville Anand: I am in my own way
18:47:38 hkhenson my dad made it to 91
18:47:47 Anand John: Meaning?
18:47:48 John_Ventureville did he take care of himself?
18:47:54 hkhenson my mom to 88 or 89
18:48:05 lazlo Eli Kazan just died at 94 today
18:48:11 hkhenson fairly well
18:48:16 hkhenson all things considered
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18:48:39 shannon We sat next to the head of Cyc, which gets the most military funding of any AI, and got to introduce him to Peter Voss, who has a bottom up system that he has been running and teaching for 18 months, (by the way they are looking for another to join their team if any of you are interested)
18:48:40 Lucifer google: Eli Kazan
18:48:41 googlebot googling for Eli Kazan
18:48:42 googlebot
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18:49:31 BJKlein1 How do you guys know Peter Voss?
18:50:00 lazlo Lets send Michael Bruce
18:50:10 DarrenVyff IT was amazing also the possibilities of a dog intelligent AI
18:50:17 shannon I sat next to he and Louis, at the CRON conf, then Darren and I visited with them in L.A. and we got to check out their project
18:50:23 BJKlein1 there ya go Laz
18:50:25 DarrenVyff Through cryonics and CR
18:50:46 Lucifer * Lucifer already works for Peter Voss ;-)
18:50:47 shannon Yeah, dog intelligent, being in cars, within the next ten years! the car industrey is very interested in that...
18:50:48 BJKlein1 nice.. peter is a swell fellow
18:51:10 shannon cool
18:51:29 John_Ventureville please tell me what Peter Voss is trying to develop at his company
18:51:34 shannon yeah I don't think he was jumping for military funding ;-)
18:51:37 BJKlein1 Lucifer.. great job there man with all the new mail servers for WTA et al
18:51:40 hkhenson I can see a car with a dog intelligence . . . . .
18:51:47 hkhenson marking territory . . . .
18:51:53 Lucifer BJKlein1, thx
18:52:00 lazlo Lucky you Lucifer. Does a do level intelligence age at 7 to 1 years?
18:52:03 shannon Darren what branch of military attended the conf.?
18:52:05 BJKlein1 John, Peter is working to create AI
18:52:09 DarrenVyff lol how about driving you where you want to go?
18:52:13 John_Ventureville dog level AI?
18:52:17 BJKlein1 no
18:52:20 BJKlein1 greater than human
18:52:30 Lucifer John_Ventureville>>
http://www.adaptivea...oject/index.htm 18:52:44 John_Ventureville and he plans to make marketable products from this research within the fairly near future??
18:53:03 DarrenVyff Hes hoping to have a demonstratable AI soon
18:53:08 John_Ventureville wow
18:53:09 shannon Marcos Guillen, is the one wanting to make profit
18:53:14 John_Ventureville how soon is "soon?"
18:53:26 John_Ventureville a year or two?
18:53:33 hkhenson AI for dealing with spam email, now that would be a product.
18:53:41 John_Ventureville lol
18:53:48 Lucifer I doubt we will have anything marketable in less than 2 years
18:53:52 shannon well Peter said they would not be able to teach it words for years, and that it would take a long time much like human learning
18:53:53 DarrenVyff Yes and lots of data mining of course
18:54:09 John_Ventureville so five to ten years?
18:54:19 Lucifer 5-10 sounds reasonable
18:54:25 John_Ventureville how will his company stay financially afloat in the meantime?
18:54:27 DarrenVyff yes depending on funding and support
18:54:43 Lucifer venture cap
18:54:47 shannon There were lots of data miners there, that sell software to companies, colleges, libraries...
18:54:49 DarrenVyff they have some backing but I didnt grill him about his finances
18:54:55 John_Ventureville so he is heavily funded for the longterm...
18:54:57 shannon they were the top down type
18:55:01 hkhenson part of the problem is that human intelligence is actually a hord of specialized systems.
18:55:03 John_Ventureville at least I hope so!
18:55:20 Lucifer JV, I wish
18:55:21 John_Ventureville maybe the CIA will buy stock in them...
18:55:25 John_Ventureville : )
18:55:39 DarrenVyff the CIA is backing the Cyr that shannon mentioned earlier
18:55:40 shannon From talking with Petere about financing, I got the impression that it is not heavily funded, and they have no where near the funds say the Guillen group does-
18:55:41 John_Ventureville they do that on occasion
18:56:00 DarrenVyff or ratler DARPA
18:56:05 Anand I missed the first 30 mins of the chat, so, to ask a ques that was probably already asked: How was the conference?
18:56:17 DarrenVyff It was very enjoyable
18:56:23 shannon Cyc, gets the most funding that I know of, but it is top down, and he talked of how the military was concerened about keeping its intelligence for the U.S.
18:56:23 John_Ventureville "Cyr" is an AI research firm?
18:56:27 hkhenson loglady got it anand
18:56:38 DarrenVyff i honestly could have had fewer speakers with more time devoted to the ones they had
18:56:39 shannon Cyc, that was a typo
18:56:43 John_Ventureville ok
18:56:47 lazlo 4lazlo----> away
18:57:08 BJKlein1 take care there laz
18:57:13 Anand I see
18:57:26 Anand Any other probs with the event, Darren?
18:57:27 hkhenson does anyone know if they plan to do another conf next year? and if so where?
18:57:28 Jonesey Cyc's been around a long time
18:57:46 shannon yes, it was a hurried conf..., but I think people came away with new connections for their respective fields, and a new sense of wonderment and encouragment
18:57:52 DarrenVyff Yes another conf next yer at San Diego
18:58:02 hkhenson conf are useful that way
18:58:14 DarrenVyff just numerous small tech glitches Anand
18:58:23 shannon Yes, they are planning another, you can check out the site, and contact Tyler Emmerson
18:58:41 hkhenson the secondary effects of the Space colonization confs in the middle 70s were far reaching.
18:58:43 DarrenVyff and the debate style should be dropped for next year unless much better manged
18:58:59 Lucifer URL to chatlog>>
http://virus.lucifer...;start=0;max=30 18:59:12 shannon I'd like them to have more clearly defined break out groups, so Cryonic, or CRON, or AI people can more easily meet...
18:59:33 hkhenson was there a fair amount on cryonics?
18:59:35 Anand Interesting idea
18:59:49 DarrenVyff well I must away I hope I have answered as much as I can
18:59:56 BJKlein1 * BJKlein1 itches to expose someong
19:00:00 shannon no not much on cryonics, I think most are hoping indefinate lifespans will happen first
19:00:10 hkhenson cryonics is not a matter of long term interest.
19:00:24 hkhenson but if you need it, it is the only game in town.
19:00:25 Anand Any other thoughts on how the event could have been better?
19:00:30 shannon thanks Darren, I bet its noisy with kids where you are! Have fun!
19:00:33 Kreator Kreator (Rotaerk@[death to spam].129.252.201.107) has joined #immortal
19:00:38 Anand Apart from reducing the tech glitches that you mentioned
19:00:54 DarrenVyff I will
19:00:58 DarrenVyff DarrenVyff (~Java@[death to spam].adsl.187.122.willamette.net) has quit IRC [Quit: Leaving]
19:01:03 Lucifer Any crazy parties? Hospitality suites?
19:01:03 Jonesey any CRONies at the conf shannon?
19:01:06 Mermaid Mermaid (~none@[death to spam].clt76-084.carolina.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: Quit]
19:01:14 Kreator Kreator (Rotaerk@[death to spam].129.252.201.107) has quit IRC [Quit: ]
19:01:21 hkhenson hmm net problems?
19:01:21 shannon if I was to die now, its better than any other option...
19:01:31 John_Ventureville wild drunken sex orgies??
19:01:46 hkhenson LOL john
19:01:47 shannon yes, Peter, and John were two I met at the CRON conf
19:01:55 BJKlein1 keith, probably a power outage
19:02:08 John_Ventureville Keith, I've heard about YOUR wild side....
19:02:09 John_Ventureville : )
19:02:12 John_Ventureville lol
19:02:15 hkhenson been a mess of those recently . . .
19:02:18 Jonesey peter voss?
19:02:18 BJKlein1 John Smart = CR?
19:02:22 hkhenson ah you have?
19:02:24 shannon hey mom, you there still?
19:02:30 Jonesey i met a peter voss at the alcor conf last nov
19:02:34 janthepayne 6yep
19:02:44 Jonesey didn't make it to the CR conf this yr, but made it to the first CR conf in vegas in 2001
19:02:51 shannon oh, hi!
19:03:08 janthepayne I left for awhile, had some stuff to do before it got dark. But, I left the window open so I can catch up on reading.
19:03:26 shannon I well if you have questions for me, just call
19:03:36 janthepayne 6No doubt. Adios
19:03:36 John_Ventureville John_Ventureville (~Java@[death to spam].24-117-204-150.cpe.cableone.net) has joined #immortal
19:03:48 hkhenson re john
19:03:55 John_Ventureville ?
19:04:14 hkhenson 3 were dropped with you.
19:04:58 John_Ventureville test
19:05:08 BJKlein1 shannon,
19:05:08 BJKlein1 you're free to stay as long as you'd like...
19:05:08 BJKlein1 however, official chat is now closed
19:05:17 hkhenson did drexler spend a bunch of time talking to people at the conf?
19:05:22 BJKlein1 chatter is encouraged
19:05:34 John_Ventureville commence chattering!
19:05:36 Jonesey i talked with drexler a bit at the alcor conf, and had dinner with christine peterson
19:05:54 John_Ventureville how is the Foresight Institute doing?
19:05:55 Jonesey drexler told me he had just spent some time with david deutsch's group at oxford learning quantum computing
19:06:23 hkhenson ah yes, he mentioned to me he had spent time at oxford.
19:06:23 BJKlein1 * BJKlein1 wonders if they are still 'together'
19:06:25 Jonesey I think there is big potential overlap between quantum/optical computing and nanotech
19:06:36 hkhenson a somewhat weird time . . . .
19:06:50 Jonesey i have spent time with deutsch at oxford as well, fun guy
19:07:16 Jonesey his book "the fabric of reality" is a great intro to quantum computing for non techies
19:07:19 hkhenson well, you really have to get into nanotech to do quantum devices
19:07:22 Jonesey among other things
19:07:48 Jonesey yup hkh, quantum researchers are unwitting nanotechers for the most part
19:08:01 BJKlein1 Tyler, was ACC2003 in the media as far as you know?
19:08:08 Jonesey have been for a long time without really thinking of themselves that way
19:08:17 hkhenson I have a proposal for making tons of nanotubes if anyone is interested
19:08:18 BJKlein1 * BJKlein1 shines a light on Anand
19:08:37 hkhenson I doubt it bj
19:08:51 hkhenson I offered to put them in the media big time, but they turned me down
19:09:03 Jonesey make me a nano boob tube so i can carry a tv in my pocket
19:09:25 hkhenson you can already do that jonesey
19:09:36 Jonesey yeah some of those little ones are pocketable
19:09:38 hkhenson any PDA will play TV
19:09:41 Jonesey not really nano but gettin there
19:09:59 Jonesey i havea handspring treo 270, never heard of tv for it..?
19:10:08 hkhenson what you really want is an implant that taps your optic nerve
19:10:19 Jonesey hm, you go first on that one
19:10:27 hkhenson you can play MP3 on a handspring
19:11:35 Jonesey yep but no way to connect tv input that i know of?
19:11:50 hkhenson sure, wireless through the net
19:12:02 shannon later, all of you, thanks as always for sharing ideas with the gen. public! I'm off to help Darren with the little humans
19:12:07 hkhenson performance may suck a bit . . . .
19:12:26 hkhenson see you later
19:12:33 Anand Anand (~Anand@[death to spam].user-vc8focm.biz.mindspring.com) has quit IRC [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:12:37 BJKlein1 thanks much shannong
19:12:40 hkhenson still important to raise up bright kids
19:12:45 BJKlein1 Shannon sorry
19:12:48 hkhenson they may be the ones who do the breakthrough
19:13:08 John_Ventureville more cryonicists/transhumanists need to have kids
19:13:14 hkhenson true
19:13:18 Jonesey i do wireless connections with gsm/gprs, guess i could get video clips from the networks that way yep
19:13:18 hkhenson but very unlikely
19:13:18 shannon ok, don't worry, they are all for AI, immortality, ever Cryonics!
19:13:22 BJKlein1 Let your mom and darren know... it was a pleasure
19:13:27 Jonesey not quite "tv" but not zero either
19:13:35 hkhenson bright people tend to have fewer kids.
19:13:50 hkhenson it is just an effect of bell curves.
19:13:56 Jonesey more self absorbed more likely
19:13:57 shannon yeah, his mom was on too, and dad, as well as my grandma!
19:14:11 BJKlein1 wow.. that's great!
19:14:27 hkhenson jonesey, the reason is not significant as to why.
19:14:37 BJKlein1 thanks much for the viral advertisment for ImmInst
19:14:38 shannon bye
19:14:40 shannon shannon (~Java@[death to spam].12-225-139-164.client.attbi.com) has quit IRC [Quit: Leaving]
19:14:57 hkhenson just anything that is way off the end of the bell curve in any dimention
19:15:06 hkhenson tends to have reduced reproductive success.
19:16:03 hkhenson if this were *not* so, then the curve would drift in that direction until those far out did suffer reduced reproductive success.
19:16:04 BJKlein1 BJKlein1 (~Java@[death to spam].pub-net-3.bradleyarant.com) has quit IRC [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:16:50 Jonesey hkh:Incoherent, as usual
19:16:54 hkhenson mathematical
19:16:55 BJKlein1 BJKlein1 (~Java@[death to spam].pub-net-3.bradleyarant.com) has joined #immortal
19:16:56 Jonesey hkh : Yet amusing as always
19:17:16 Jonesey i gotta get whatever it is u smoke b4 u come on here dude
19:17:20 Jonesey must be some good shit
19:17:26 Jonesey ok back to bed, niters
19:17:27 hkhenson sorry jonesey, why do you say this arguement is incoherent?
19:17:42 hkhenson it is right out of statistics.
19:17:53 hkhenson look up regression to the mean for example
19:18:43 hkhenson or do you not think genetics has a considerable amount to do with intelligence?
19:18:49 Eliezer * Eliezer confirms for Jonesey that hkhenson's argument, while not bulletproof, is mathematically interesting and has heuristic force; it certainly is not incoherent
19:18:59 John_Ventureville *I think she may think we are all charming geeks*
19:19:37 BJKlein1 note: Jonesey is actually a male.
19:20:08 hkhenson of course, for a vast time, about 2 million years, there *was* pressure on humans to grow larger brains
19:20:14 John_Ventureville OH!
19:20:20 John_Ventureville sorry
19:20:26 hkhenson smarter maybe not.
19:20:34 kirks see dawkins 1976
19:20:43 kirks old hat req'd reading that one
19:20:43 hkhenson take a look at william calvin re this topic
19:21:03 hkhenson he has the best arguments I know of on the subject of why humans grew larger brains.
19:21:10 BJKlein1 anyone like to be a host for next weeks ImmInst chat?
19:21:18 hkhenson has to do with our niche as projectile hunters.
19:21:20 kirks any tpoic yet
19:21:35 kirks atlatl specialist here
19:21:36 BJKlein1 we're scheduled for a nice chat the week after with Aubrey de Grey
19:21:42 Eliezer terrence deacon, "The Symbolic Species" is what I recommend
19:22:04 kirks how did the extension of the arm evolve
19:22:12 kirks into a weapon system
19:22:17 Eliezer he has a fascinating argument that we grew larger prefrontal lobes as much for emotional effects that support language, as for any increase in processing capacity
19:22:31 kirks and how has it changed our life style/expectancy
19:22:35 hkhenson killer fisbees kirks
19:22:52 BJKlein1 Eli is this a topic suggestion or general comment?
19:22:53 kirks the "master b" tm
19:23:00 hkhenson formerly known as "hand axes"
19:23:15 kirks plastic hand hachet
19:23:22 kirks but that is another thread
19:23:31 Eliezer bjk - general comment
19:24:11 hkhenson calvin says we grew larger brain for the highly practical effect of feeding families
19:24:35 Eliezer not a machiavellian, then
19:24:37 John_Ventureville has Eliezer ever been a guest of honor here?
19:24:38 hkhenson and as he pointed out, there must have been a hell of an advantage
19:24:41 kirks On Agression by Konrad might be a good ass to that read as well
19:25:00 hkhenson because it cost millions of women their lives.
19:25:04 kirks add not ass [fat finger disease] sorry :\
19:25:23 Eliezer most people these days think sexual selection for intelligence must have been involved to get brains so ridiculously huge
19:25:39 Eliezer *runaway sexual selection
19:25:51 hkhenson calvin says we needed every bit of it for throwing spears.
19:26:19 kirks larger brain self selection is a fugue [Hofstedter - G.E.B.]
19:26:20 Eliezer deacon makes a much more detailed argument that shows how the complex *shape* of human intelligence relates to the growing prefrontal area... not just "we needed it for this or that"
19:26:22 hkhenson timing the release of a projectile to hit the target takes monster numbers of nerves
19:26:29 BJKlein1 notes, women don't trow spears
19:26:39 hkhenson yeah, but they *eat*
19:26:49 kirks * kirks notes women throw daggers
19:26:52 hkhenson *meat*
19:27:14 kirks high protien needed for large brin development necessitated effective hunting
19:27:21 hkhenson bingo kirks
19:27:32 hkhenson year round too.
19:27:37 kirks evolutionary stable strategy
19:27:48 hkhenson and in norther climates you could not use water hole hunting
19:28:14 hkhenson where you could get away with the side of the barn accuracy of thrown hand axes
19:28:15 Eliezer our intelligence has a shape to it that is not explained by selection for throwing spears
19:28:17 BJKlein1 eh, seems that just adding a nutrient can't make something like the brain bigger...
19:28:19 kirks larger brain needs more meat needs more skill need more prefontal/hippocampal/occipital connectivity ergo more skills
19:28:58 hkhenson how is "shape of intelligence" measured eli?
19:29:15 kirks effective child development REQuires HUGE intakes of protien. long after weening of infant
19:29:18 John_Ventureville so it was the combined needs of improved hunting & verbal communication skills for mate selection which shaped us?
19:29:42 kirks there was no "need" for communication skills, that one is a side effect
19:29:50 kirks first tools, then language
19:29:59 hkhenson a major factor which probably shaped a lot of human intelligence
19:30:02 kirks the semiotic explosion came after the tool revolution
19:30:13 kirks semiotics was a LATENT tool
19:30:15 BJKlein1 eh, maybe not verbal communication.. but a heck of lot of facial communication
19:30:16 hkhenson is the drive for status
19:30:35 Eliezer henson: deacon points out a lot of things associated with the prefrontal lobes, and how they all change simultaneously over evolutionary history
19:30:38 hkhenson because status determined the difference between having zero wives and 3 of them.
19:30:47 kirks again NonVerbalComm is still a semiotic derivative of Tool making
19:31:32 hkhenson well, eliezer, fer sure you are going to need bigger prefrontals to manage (largely inhibit) the rest of the brain.
19:31:46 BJKlein1 * BJKlein1 agrees with the sexual drive for status model.. and how this would increase brain size rapidly
19:31:51 kirks the basal comm skills necessary to establish mating creche did not change with communication skills till the advent of text
19:32:00 hkhenson indirectly bj
19:32:03 kirks and other such symbolic representational means
19:32:11 hkhenson status was highly tied up with being a better hunter.
19:32:29 hkhenson i.e., better hunters got more nookie.
19:32:30 kirks the simple animal Hominid kept to the Agression Game for that chore
19:32:51 kirks the aggression game hkh
19:32:53 Eliezer ...I'm sort of reluctant to discuss Deacon here, because he has such a truly *beautiful* book, and this one moment when the whole picture he's been drawing, which previously struck me as implausible, is inverted to suddenly *make sense* and my whole picture of how evolution works changes...
19:32:57 hkhenson but to be a better hunter required timing projectile release to a nats ass.
19:32:58 Eliezer I don't want to spoil it
19:33:10 kirks true hkh
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19:33:23 BJKlein1 welcome sage
19:33:30 John_Ventureville what is the title of this book?
19:33:31 kirks and that require the prefontal/limbic/occipital synchrony
19:33:35 Eliezer "The Symbolic Species"
19:33:40 John_Ventureville thank you
19:33:41 hkhenson which required more cells acting in parallel to reduce the timing jitter
19:33:59 kirks more pathways
19:34:03 kirks and with more pathways
19:34:12 kirks you achieve that critical mass
19:34:13 hkhenson and because evolution couldn't do something reasonable like switching to electronics
19:34:14 kirks sooner
19:34:30 hkhenson the only thing the brain could do was get bigger
19:34:44 Eliezer but not just the cerebellum got bigger
19:34:45 kirks what diff does it make axions or CCD
19:34:47 hkhenson and at the same time trying to get those large brains born . . . .
19:34:48 Eliezer though it did, substantially
19:34:59 Eliezer or I should say... the cerebellar cortex got bigger
19:35:10 kirks made the birth canal the Panamania Canal in the process
19:35:12 hkhenson the babies had to be less mature.
19:35:18 Eliezer since it's the parallel fibers that would actually "time projectile release to a gnats ass"
19:35:30 kirks ergo younger gestation
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19:35:37 hkhenson actually I don't think so eliezer
19:35:47 Eliezer well, dependency on the parallel fibers, you know what I mean
19:35:52 hkhenson it is the column cells in the cortex, particularly the motor cortex
19:36:20 hkhenson but it seems that a lot more of the cortex is involved in release timing
19:36:29 Eliezer I'm not sure I buy that. Motor planning, yes, but wouldn't *fine-grained timing* happen in the cerebellar error-correction circuit?
19:36:33 Eliezer hm
19:36:50 kirks yes, but they dont get their pathway activation till that orietation awarenes area inthe prefrontal cortex gets done with the trajectory work
19:36:51 Eliezer the idea here being that release timing is a case of release *suppression*?
19:36:59 hkhenson calvin says it is a the effect of bringing a whacking lot of the brain on a short effort
19:37:16 kirks and that only comes after the occiptial and motor response pathways finish input sensory data
19:37:17 Eliezer Okay, I can see this as cortical/prefrontal
19:37:40 Eliezer since it's not a *reflex* throw, it's a *release at the right moment* planned throw
19:37:49 hkhenson fer darn sure, you can't do anything else while throwing
19:37:57 Eliezer "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes"
19:38:03 hkhenson like talking screws it up
19:38:16 kirks what would be the feedback model of that Eliuz?
19:38:22 hkhenson firing a gun is not like throwing a projectile :-)
19:38:35 kirks it can be
19:38:39 hkhenson kirks, there is *no time* for feedback
19:38:49 kirks there is always feedback
19:38:52 Eliezer all you get is "hit" or "miss"
19:38:58 kirks the process is not trans luminal
19:38:59 hkhenson the whole operation has to be precomputed
19:39:03 kirks it has a finite speed
19:39:08 kirks ergo "reaction time"
19:39:13 hkhenson right but nerves are *slow*
19:39:16 kirks therefore there is a feedback loop time
19:39:25 Eliezer but it's from throw to throw
19:39:27 Eliezer not within throws
19:39:30 hkhenson much slower than the whole operation of throwing
19:39:33 kirks and therefore a feedback error checking loop
19:39:47 Eliezer and the feedback takes the form of conscious knowledge of a hit or miss... so timing ends up being cortical suppress/release
19:39:49 kirks there is self monitoring during the preocess
19:39:49 Eliezer I can see that
19:39:53 hkhenson sorry no error in a throw like eliezer says.
19:39:56 kirks that is preemptory feedback
19:40:09 hkhenson nope.
19:40:13 hkhenson just not enough time.
19:40:31 hkhenson sorry.
19:40:33 kirks if the hand releases late the error correction loop will pick it up and tell the hunter "miss"
19:40:50 kirks care to test that with experimentation?
19:40:55 hkhenson that's not a feedback loop
19:41:02 Eliezer *which* error correction loop? the one in motor planning cortex, the one in the cerebellar circuit, or the prefrontal cortex?
19:41:02 hkhenson no correction during a throw
19:41:08 kirks output monitoring is feedback
19:41:18 kirks have you ever thrown an atlatl
19:41:35 kirks your release time is several hundred milliseconds
19:41:41 hkhenson training is kind of a long term feedback, I agree with you there
19:41:44 kirks it is quite dramatically slow
19:41:45 hkhenson no way kirks.
19:41:53 kirks yes
19:42:13 Eliezer kirks, there will be two classes of feedback
19:42:19 kirks the arm extension stick is over two feet long and folds back on your forearm
19:42:22 kirks yes
19:42:26 kirks that is what I am getting at
19:42:30 Eliezer one is proprioceptive and somatic sensory circuitry telling you where the spear is *right now* in your hand
19:42:33 John_Ventureville BJ: Are you recording this?
19:42:36 Eliezer and the other is visually seeing the spear hit or miss
19:42:43 kirks there is a third
19:42:56 BJKlein1 yes
19:43:01 kirks seeig the effect of the release in this case during the course of the zact
19:43:05 kirks act
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19:43:09 Eliezer the first kind of feedback is obviously going to go directly to the parallel fibers, the mossy fibers, and the Purkinje cells of the cerebellum, it's a pure motor skill
19:43:17 kirks yes
19:43:22 kirks but still feedback
19:43:42 Eliezer the second kind of feedback goes... to the cerebellum? to motor planning cortex? to prefrontal action suppression cortex? two? three?
19:43:50 BJKlein1 John, I'll post to ImmInst by tommorow
19:43:54 kirks other wise that slow spidy bot would have never made it to a door some forty years ago in the basement at MIT
19:44:00 BJKlein1 any updates on the mag?
19:44:17 Eliezer if you know anything about neuroanatomy you know that the answer is usually "all three", but some will play a more important part than others
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19:44:25 hkhenson that was annoying
19:44:33 BJKlein1 wb keith
19:44:46 Eliezer I'm not sure that long-term feedback goes into the parallel-fiber climbing-fiber training circuit of the cerebellum, because it's not clear to me how the training would work
19:44:49 hkhenson re
19:44:52 John_Ventureville BJ: issue two will come out in about a week
19:45:14 Eliezer the cerebellum will work on somatic feedback and visual feedback, but I would guess, from what I know of it, that it would have to be in realtime
19:45:20 Eliezer or close to realtime
19:45:22 John_Ventureville I will have an article in it reviewing the classic John Boorman film "Zardoz."
19:45:33 hkhenson in any case, kirks, that weapon was not a feature of the long period where people evolved.
19:45:34 Eliezer and quantitative, i.e., *how much* the miss was by, not just the fact of "hit" or "Miss"
19:45:38 hkhenson larger brains
19:45:39 kirks runnig is the same three feedback schema
19:45:52 John_Ventureville A very strange transhumanist/deathist film.
19:45:52 John_Ventureville lol
19:45:58 BJKlein1 cool.. i hear that's a classic.. have never see it
19:45:59 kirks the degree of that third back channel changes from process to process
19:46:00 hkhenson google: calvin ascent of mind
19:46:01 googlebot googling for calvin ascent of mind
19:46:01 googlebot
http://faculty.washi...calvin/bk5.html 19:46:12 Eliezer * Eliezer waves goodbye... heading out-of-channel
19:46:19 John_Ventureville bye
19:46:19 BJKlein1 seya eLI
19:46:27 kirks l8r eLi
19:46:29 Eliezer Eliezer (~sentience@[death to spam].c-24-98-32-87.atl.client2.attbi.com) has left #immortal
19:46:52 hkhenson calvin might be wrong, but I could not find any holes in his arguments or the math behind them.
19:46:53 John_Ventureville has Eliezer ever been the guest here?
19:47:01 BJKlein1 yes..
19:47:05 John_Ventureville ok
19:47:07 BJKlein1 he gave a chat last week.
19:47:14 BJKlein1 and has done about 3
19:47:16 BJKlein1 total..
19:47:22 John_Ventureville an old timer!
19:47:26 BJKlein1 yeh..
19:47:36 BJKlein1 internet time.. he's ancient
19:47:45 John_Ventureville "old news!"
19:47:46 John_Ventureville lol
19:48:04 John_Ventureville test
19:48:10 John_Ventureville test
19:48:13 BJKlein1 he has a really cool audio
19:48:15 kirks hello
19:48:18 BJKlein1 speech on immortality
19:48:29 John_Ventureville I wanted to hear it but the CD I was given was messed up
19:48:29 BJKlein1 if you havent' heard it...
19:48:47 John_Ventureville nope
19:48:50 BJKlein1 just a sec.. i'll get the link..
19:49:52 BJKlein1
http://www.imminst.o...iclearchive.php 19:50:01 John_Ventureville thank you!
19:50:41 BJKlein1 it's very much worth the time..
19:50:59 hkhenson recently it has been proposed that the reason the human line shifted to bipedal was to make longer distance food finding possible
19:51:01 John_Ventureville cool
19:51:26 BJKlein1 seems strange.. 4 legs are faster
19:51:32 hkhenson takes less energy to walk than to go on 4 legs
19:51:46 hkhenson faster is not the problem it seems as much as efficiencey
19:51:54 BJKlein1 hmm..
19:52:12 BJKlein1 takes more energy to stand upright
19:52:25 hkhenson but less to travers a distance
19:52:35 kirks reach higher fruits on trees
19:52:52 BJKlein1 thinks chimps are a good model for this..
19:53:04 kirks opposable thumb evolutionary benifits obvious
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19:53:40 kirks theregoes hkh again
19:53:47 BJKlein1 i can see the added benefit of bipedal
19:53:55 BJKlein1 for less exposure to sun
19:54:03 BJKlein1 and looking farther..
19:54:15 BJKlein1 and more imposing to enemy
19:54:31 BJKlein1 thus.. saving energy to travel seems likely
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19:54:41 hkhenson this is a pain
19:54:43 kirks rehi hkh
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19:55:09 kirksteele kirksteele (~ksteele42@[death to spam].198.199.133.254) has quit IRC [Quit: Today is a good day to chat.]
19:55:27 John_Ventureville if genetic engineering/singularity etc. were not on the horizon.....
19:55:31 BJKlein1 keith.. bipedal = less sun exposure, look farther distances, more imposing to enemy.. you agree:?
19:55:36 celindra Bipedal reduces exposure to ground, thus reducing exposure to parasites and poisonous type things
19:55:41 hkhenson BTW, you want an example for timing, try my weapon the sling.
19:55:46 John_Ventureville what would we evolve into several million years from now?
19:55:49 hkhenson maybe
19:56:11 hkhenson but you can go about 40% further on the same fuel
19:56:32 BJKlein1 john.. impossible to predict... with so much artificial influences
19:56:42 John_Ventureville just even bigger brains and less robust builds?
19:56:50 celindra natural selection doesn't occur anymore in humans
19:56:59 hkhenson actually it might
19:57:10 hkhenson there was a recent article on the topic
19:57:24 hkhenson jarrad diamond
19:57:32 hkhenson diabetes was the topic
19:57:32 John_Ventureville "homo brainius wimpius?"
19:57:57 hkhenson looks possible that incredible selection went on in a very few generations
19:58:26 John_Ventureville BJ: so you are still recording?
19:58:32 BJKlein1 yes...
19:58:35 John_Ventureville ok
19:58:36 John_Ventureville cool
19:58:36 hkhenson in response to a world where food shortages became uncommon
19:58:38 BJKlein1 loglady is all seeing
19:58:43 John_Ventureville wonderful
19:59:20 John_Ventureville we can download her into a female android and finally Jerry Searcy will have the woman of his dreams
19:59:22 John_Ventureville : )
19:59:33 John_Ventureville *around 2040*
19:59:47 John_Ventureville you would have to know Jerry to understand
