22 replies to this topic

[kgmax]

http://www.prospect-...cle.php?id=8152

thanks to kurzweilai.net

[Ghostrider]

I just skimmed the article, but I took issue with the last statement in which the author gave a consensus without citing reasoning or source:

For now at least, few of us want to live beyond 120, but we would like to continue enjoying the good life for as long as possible within that ultimate span.

That's news to me. Ok, why is this? Why not longer than 120?

[caston]

I'm still fascinated by the following "salmon can live much longer and continue reproducing when infected by pearl mussel larvae." The parasite produces a protein that helps "mop" up free radicals.

I wonder if there are examples in biology of mammalian-infecting parasites increasing the life span of the host?

[maestro949]

That's news to me.  Ok, why is this?  Why not longer than 120?

The notion that people would prefer to die at some particular age is a cultural myth. It would be interesting to see some surveys done that asked how long people would like to live assuming they had perfect health, job security and your loved ones around you for as long as you lived.

[eternaltraveler]

The notion that people would prefer to die at some particular age is a cultural myth. It would be interesting to see some surveys done that asked how long people would like to live assuming they had perfect health, job security and your loved ones around you for as long as you lived.

this suggests a project imminst might be able to do. Polling to determine the answer to the above question. Still; the deathist meme is so strong that I wouldn't be surpised if we didn't get the answer we want.

[eternaltraveler]

I wonder how much it would cost to contract out such a service to a reputable polling organization. Of course before considering doing that it might make sense to conduct some polling on our own.

[maestro949]

That would be cool. Designing the questionnaire to eliminate cultural bias would be a challenge.

Another interesting study would be to determine if there's a longevity difference between deathists and immortalists to see if there's any mind-body connection. i.e. Does acceptance of death shorten lifespan or alternatively does the desire to live longer cause you to live longer?

[caston]

this suggests a project imminst might be able to do.  Polling to determine the answer to the above question.  Still; the deathist meme is so strong that I wouldn't be surpised if we didn't get the answer we want.

I'd like to put forward the argument that its not a deathist meme but merely a blind following of the cycle of birth and death that people haven't woken up from yet.

Maestro: I'd like to think so especially if they are putting quite a lot of effort into life extension by improving their diet and keeping fit. There is also the The Neuroendocrine Theory that the brain may regulate ageing (like a clock) or something like that. I don't believe we talk about that a lot here or am I wrong?

[maestro949]

There is also the The Neuroendocrine Theory that the brain may regulate ageing (like a clock) or something like that. I don't believe we talk about that a lot here or am I wrong?

The irony of aging is that it really doesn't have anything to do with time.

[william7]

I just skimmed the article, but I took issue with the last statement in which the author gave a consensus without citing reasoning or source:

For now at least, few of us want to live beyond 120, but we would like to continue enjoying the good life for as long as possible within that ultimate span.

That's news to me. Ok, why is this? Why not longer than 120?

The author wants the focus on quality of life in old age instead of quanity. I have to agree with him. Take a look at this video, at http://www.learner.o...w.html?pid=1515, on the psychology of aging. It's going to take fundamental changes to overcome the conditions mentioned in the video if we are going to optimize quality of life in old age. Less tinkering with the biology of life and much more with the problems of life is needed at this stage.

[caston]

elijah: That's why i'm so interested in preventing ageing rather than trying to reverse it.


I'm watching that video in xine now btw...
So I'm in the "intimacy vs isloation stage" which I need to resolve... ok... I sort of already knew that but didn't realise this entire stage of my life could be summed up that way.

I think I did ask about something similar this (positive aspects of ageing) btw once in a forum post and got a positive response from Duke.

http://www.imminst.o...ing with age&s=

I don't want to be part of this cycle. I work to increase my intellectual ability and become more process orientated rather than emotionally orienated.

Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson's...ial_development

Although interesting most us would run a mile from that sort of thinking and consider it "deathist". I want to maintain my physical body as is more or less right now. Sure I will grow mentally and emotionally but I don't want to look old and have reduced physical ability and I sure as hell don't want to die.

An immortalist could assume they will stay young continue living themselves and thus be in no hurry to find a partner and have children. If it turns out they are still undergoing programmed ageing and have not escaped the cycle of birth and death they could end up basically alone, isolated and old. I guess its like trying to get an airplane off the ground and your runway is next to a cliff. If the plane takes off in time you are free but if it doesn't you come crashing to the ground.

It may be best to try for a both ways bet. Try to get the best out of the cycle but look for any possible chance to break out of it.

The task we are trying to pull off here is enormous but I believe we can do it. We have the chance not only to avoid death but also to construct a new higher level and more responsible human identity.

Edited by caston, 25 January 2007 - 03:59 PM.

[Mind]

For reference, Here is a survey that was taken on myspace.com and designed by Imminst members last year. The survey link is still there, but I don't no if there are any new results.

[william7]

I don't want to be part of this cycle. I work to increase my intellectual ability and become more process orientated rather than emotionally orienated.

Be careful not over emphasize intellectual pursuits to the exclusion of other important aspects of your psyche. Seek balance and harmony.

I'm in the Generativity vs. Stagnation stage, so, true to form, I'm interested in developing the perfect communal society that'll be supportive of both its children and its aged citizens to the utmost. The way I see it, we first need to have the right conditions for living out a 120 year (maximum) lifespan, before we seek a biologically extension beyond that period. "First things first" as they say.

[Ghostrider]

I'd like to put forward the argument that its not a deathist meme but merely a blind following of the cycle of birth and death that people haven't woken up from yet.

I think people in general just try not to think about it and promote / subscribe to beliefs that aging is not so bad and that death is actually the beginning of a better afterlife. Up to some point in time, this makes sense. If one cannot fix aging and one knows that one will die, it is best to avoid thinking about the consequences of a problem that one cannot solve as it will do no good and only cause despair. In fact, I would even suggest that it is healthy to invent abstract beliefs to cover up such a problem as it would improve the quality of life. (Actually, I would not go this far because things can be done to bring a solution sooner, but one may not be around to benefit from the solution, however the total absolute good is increased by facing reality rather than covering it up. However, individuals may feel better about their lives by not confronting problems that they do not think can be solved within their lifespans.)

So this, I think, is where we are. I think it would be better for society as a whole to face aging because I believe that the problem is becoming increasingly more manageable through technological advances. Some or perhaps all of us here may even be killed by aging or may have to be held in a frozen state until a solution arrives. But my reasoning is simple. 1. Aging will eventually destroy me. 2. Aging limits one's ability for employment, causes mental and physical decline, and contributes to other personal problems...ever visit a nursing home? 3. Aging is very expensive and limits productivity. The sooner aging is cured, even if I do not benefit, the better off humanity will be.

[niner]

In fact, I would even suggest that it is healthy to invent abstract beliefs to cover up such a problem as it would improve the quality of life.

Yeah, I think you're right. Some people have invented elaborate memes for this very purpose...

[kgmax]

I also took issue with the last statement of living past 120 and quality over quantity.
I think that I understand it though.
Have you ever known or known of a truely healthy active supercentarian?
When you think of being old you think of being tired, brittle, easily succeptible to disease and infection.

My fiance (whom I live with) does not understand the desire to live an extremely long life. She works in a hospital and is exposed to the sick and elderly. When I talk about wanting to live to at least 90 she does not understand it. I have personally known happy healthy elderly (post 75) people. She has not.

When we speak of living to extreme ages it throws people off. When we speak of curing osteoporosis, diabetes, pnemonia, pulmonary disease etc. is when we get peoples attention. Grandma looked old, but when she was healthy it did not matter because she was happy and spry. When she broke her hip and deteriorated from there her looking "old" took on a whole new meaning.

Basically what I am getting at is there is no cure for ageing other than dying. Age is a measurement of life. I and most of the people here understand senescence but it is simply to much to expect most people to grasp it.

Extending stamina, health and mental acuity (indefinately?) is a nice way to put it eh?

[caston]

elijah: Aren't you concerned about your own immortality?

If I was 140 but still looked like my display pic I don't think such as community would make or break things. I would probably be bored there.

[Ghostrider]

One point I forgot to make, but could have been inferred from what I said. I think all we need is one significant method to increase lifespan a few years. We need some breakthrough, some way that consistently gives longer life and can benefit all people, not just those who have diabetes, cancer, etc (although those would be good as well). Once this happens, I think others will realize, gee, maybe there is a chance. At this point, I think the whole game will change.

[william7]

elijah: Aren't you concerned about your own immortality?

If I was 140 but still looked like my display pic I don't think such as community would make or break things. I would probably be bored there.

Sure I'm concerned about my own immortality. But I'm also concerned with having optimal living conditions so I can live out a normal lifespan of 120 years. I'm convinced that the right education, diet and lifestyle will not only slow aging but provide the necessary conditions or surroundings where I would be able to age and die with dignity and much less pain and suffering than is the case today.

I'm not saying that medical research should stop looking for techniques to extend the lifespan beyond the 120 year range. I just wish they would expend some of those funds they receive on research into the potential of communal living to provide a higher quality of life for the aged that should increase longevity within the 120 range.

My nonprofessional guess is that aging researchers in the biomedical sciences will probably come up with only modest extensions of the lifespan outside that 120 range at first. Those people who start living to say 150 or 200 years old on the basis of these extensions are going to need the optimal living conditions that only communal living can supply to enhance their longevity potential to the fullest reaches.

If you were 140 years old in a communal living setting, I'm sure you would be able to adapt well once it became understood that such an environment - with the close cooperation of others in the same circumstances as yourself - was absolutely necessary for your ability to successfully live out the greater lifespan. You would just learn to enjoy the slower pace of life with its simpler pleasures.

Just think of the benefits to the slower paced life of a communal setting designed especially so you would be a very cherished and essential member of the community - surrounded by loving family with no thought of putting you in a nursing home. The physical environment would also be designed so as to greatly reduce the risk of accidental injuries that might lead to your untimely death like kgmax mentions above. More successful strategies designed to ameliorate aging could be implemented in a communal setting than anywhere else in my opinion.

[Ghostrider]

Just think of the benefits to the slower paced life of a communal setting designed especially so you would be a very cherished and essential member of the community - surrounded by loving family with no thought of putting you in a nursing home. The physical environment would also be designed so as to greatly reduce the risk of accidental injuries that might lead to your untimely death like kgmax mentions above. More successful strategies designed to ameliorate aging could be implemented in a communal setting than anywhere else in my opinion.

That does sound like a good idea. Do you know of any places where this has been implemented? I imagine that it has already.

[william7]

That does sound like a good idea. Do you know of any places where this has been implemented? I imagine that it has already.

There's communal living being done throughout the world and there's research in this area being conducted. See, for example, http://www.ic.org/icsa/about.html. I'm no expert in this area, but I'm fairly certain that communal living hasn't been perfected yet. For instance, some communes take Marxism as their official ideology and world-view whereas others take some form of religion for this purpose such as practicing the Old Testament of the Bible to the exclusion of the New Testament and vice versa.

I've never heard of a commune where antiaging strategies are practiced to any significant extent. I doubt there are any practicing calorie restriction, periodic fasting, or a vegan diet for longevity. Take for instance the Amish and Hutterite communities who practice a paganized form of the New Testament to the exclusion of the Old Testament. They eat meat - including pork - as well as baked goods with refined sugar. Longevity suffers I'm sure.

I've also never heard of a commune where both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible are practiced together as they should be. If this were done correctly, I'm sure it would have a major impact on the psyche of the people and contribute substantially to longevity. It's my belief that mental strategies to combat aging will prove to be just as important, if not more so, than the biologically based strategies.


I'm editng the Wikipedia links for the Amish and Hutterites. Sorry for the screw up.

Edited by elijah3, 26 January 2007 - 04:21 PM.

[caston]

There's something i've been thinking about. The "immortality stage" that was mentioned in the imminist documentary and I think a couple of times on the forums but I can't find it. The idea is that as we get older the chance of death increases each year but we get to a stage where it stops increasing each year and stays the same. Kind of like saying we age to 90 then stay "aged 90" until we die even if that is 120. Does anyone know what I am talking about here and have some more information? If there really is such as thing maybe there is a way to get it to kick in long before 90 say at perhaps 30...


Secondly can I overcome a Psychosocial Crisis (according to Erikson's stages) before I even reach that age?
Would that make any difference to my physical ageing? (don't expect you to answer that one, unless you want to, just think about it)
Conversely if someone never ovecame "Identity vs. Role Confusion" could they have also delayed physical entry into young adulthood?

I'm single and every time I go out there seems to be an enormous amount of single women yet I still manage to avoid "hooking up with them". Statistics I have read about seem to confirm that a lot of young people are single. Perhaps "Intimacy vs. Isolation" is a big hang up these days.

Edited by caston, 27 January 2007 - 04:51 AM.

[caston]

I still think we haven't talked about the Neuroendocrine theory of ageing anywhere near enough here.