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Why Radical Islam Might Defeat The West


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#1 RighteousReason

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 12:34 PM


Why radical Islam might defeat the West

Garrett's organization, the World Conservation Union, is devoted to preserving fragile cultures. As a matter of fact, I reported in this space that in the next decade, yet another 2,000 distinct ethnic groups would go extinct (Live and Let Die of April 13, 2002). Ignore the endangered Ewoks for a moment, Mr Garrett, and explain why the imperial peoples of the past two centuries - Germans, Japanese, French, Italians, Russians, and so forth - have elected to disappear, through failure to reproduce (Why Europe chooses extinction, April 8).


Unlike lower species, humans require a sense of the eternal. The brute instinct for self-preservation is a myth. It should be no surprise. Precisely a century ago, George Bernard Shaw in his 1903 interlude Don Juan in Hell warned that Western hedonism would lead to depopulation.


Not a single Western strategist has proposed an ideological response to the religious challenge of Islam. On the contrary: the Vatican, the guardian-of-last-resort of the Western heritage, has placed itself squarely in the camp of appeasement. Except for a few born-again Christians in the United States, no Western voice is raised in criticism of Islam itself. The trouble is that Islam believes in its divine mission, while the United States has only a fuzzy recollection of what it once believed, and therefore has neither the aptitude nor the inclination for ideological warfare.


The West has no armed prophet. It doesn't even have an armed theologian.



#2 Mind

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 04:14 PM

After readingthe world net daily article you linked to, I did get a little scared. I cannot believe how much Google is bending over to appease dictators and strict religions like Islam. I always viewed Google as the good guys, you know, supporting free speech and human rights and all that jazz. Now I am disillusioned.

#3 JonesGuy

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:57 PM

What's needed are robust counter-arguments to the Qu'ran, a robust legal system to prevent 'taking over', and an excellent reason to not follow Islam (enhanced satisfaction with life, and a superior culture and economy).

The Bible was defeated because it made claims that were then shown to be false; the Qu'ran has the same problem (but is a bit more canny than the Bible, because it makes fewer positive claims).

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#4 xanadu

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 10:41 PM

Is this the meeting of the hard line bible thumpers society? I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I have a great idea. How about if we invade those uppity muslims and kill their asses then they will see that following the bible is the better way? Oh wait, we already tried that and now we are in a worse mess. Maybe if we just throw our weight around and bully everyone they will respect us more? Oh wait, that's what we are doing and now everyone hates us. Well, no point in learning from experience, lets just keep on going like we are. No reason to try any new ideas.

#5 Mind

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 10:52 PM

Xanadu: It is easy to be a critic (and a terrorist apologist), where are your grand ideas?

#6 xanadu

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 11:18 PM

Xanadu: It is easy to be a critic (and a terrorist apologist), where are your grand ideas?


How about get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, for starters? Is that grand enough for you?

#7 Mind

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 11:51 PM

How about get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, for starters?


That is a lot more constructive than your last post.

Many people are critical of the war without being supporters of terrorism or radical Islam.

#8 xanadu

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 10:01 PM

Many people are critical of the war without being supporters of terrorism or radical Islam.


Hmmm, I must have missed the part where I supported terrorism or radical islam. Show me where I said that. You can't, can you?

#9 Grail

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 12:46 AM

Okay you shoot them because they shoot you...which makes them want to shoot you more. This way there will be an endless supply of "terrorists", and thus an endless circle of killing on both sides. Surely there is another way. We give great amounts of trust and support to our leaders to figure out what that way may be.

#10 jdog

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 05:15 AM

The link below provides a list of literal translations from the Qur'an. I've heard that through translation (from arabic to english) important meaning can be lost - either way, some of the things the religion of Islam is based on scares the hell out of me. I don't endorse everything on this site, but even if only half of it is true, then that's enough for me.

http://prophetofdoom...ic_Quotes.Islam

#11 niner

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 06:27 AM

Oh, yeah. Radical Islam is a real threat to our existence. Pretty soon they are going to come streaming over the border from Mexico, and before you know it we'll be living under Sharia law. The problem is our paltry military and our lack of sophisticated technology. Our crappy little nuclear bombs, delivery systems, satellites, JDAMs, stealth bombers, etc is just no match for their, umm... Beards. And robes, and AK-47s! I thought the Soviets were dangerous. Hah! if only they had the power of cave dwelling, then they would have won the cold war, and we'd all be driving tractors now. But these nefarious terrorist radical Islamic Brown People, billions of them! All ideologically identical, an Army of Clones! Shia, Sunni, Persian, Indonesian, it makes no difference! All BrOwN, All ScArY!!!! Damn! I just peed on myself again! Who Can Blame Me!!!!!! I am TERRIFIED!!!!

#12 niner

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 06:42 AM

Do you think that the entire country of, say, Pakistan is suicidal? There are no sane adults there who might act to prevent the destruction of their entire country? If not, well... we have the ability to sterilize their entire country, if that makes you feel better. There will probably be a lot more countries with nukes eventually, because we have made it clear to the world that if you have one, we will negotiate. If you don't, we will trump up a reason to invade. Just like we are doing with Iran right now.

#13 xanadu

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 07:49 PM

So what's your plan? Give the terrorists whatever they demand? Leave them alone and hope they stop wanting to kill us?


My plan is to leave them alone and treat them with respect, same as everyone else. The reason they attack us is because we attacked them. Attacking them more only makes things worse. Our unconditional support for Israel's expansion plans has earned us a lot of hate

You have to do SOMETHING.


Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

grail, you have a very good point in that the hawks have a simple minded view that anyone who is a muslim or who lives in one of those countries or who is brown must all be the same. And of course they believe the only answer is to try to kill them all. Hank, what is your solution?

#14 niner

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 11:56 PM

Wow you have got to be kidding


So what's your plan, Hankconn?

My plan, for the record, is: Develop less energy intensive transportation sector so we don't need to buy or steal Arab oil. Stop unconditional support for Israel. That doesn't mean no relationship with Israel, it means start acting like an honest broker, stop giving them cluster bombs, stop being Likud's best buddy. Finally, treat them with respect and leave them the hell alone. I don't want my country to be the freaking Death Star.

#15 mitkat

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 12:48 AM

So what's your plan, Hankconn? 

My plan, for the record, is: Develop less energy intensive transportation sector so we don't need to buy or steal Arab oil.  Stop unconditional support for Israel.  That doesn't mean no relationship with Israel, it means start acting like an honest broker, stop giving them cluster bombs, stop being Likud's best buddy.  Finally, treat them with respect and leave them the hell alone.  I don't want my country to be the freaking Death Star.


Hey, that sounds totally reasonable. Why is this idea not more popular in the states? I realize it's a generalization, but shit. Come on.

#16 jdog

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 01:18 AM

Oh, yeah.  Radical Islam is a real threat to our existence.  Pretty soon they are going to come streaming over the border from Mexico, and before you know it we'll be living under Sharia law.  The problem is our paltry military and our lack of sophisticated technology.  Our crappy little nuclear bombs, delivery systems, satellites, JDAMs, stealth bombers, etc is just no match for their, umm... Beards.  And robes, and AK-47s!  I thought the Soviets were dangerous.  Hah!  if only they had the power of cave dwelling, then they would have won the cold war, and we'd all be driving tractors now.  But these nefarious terrorist radical Islamic Brown People, billions of them!  All ideologically identical, an Army of Clones!  Shia, Sunni, Persian, Indonesian, it makes no difference!  All BrOwN, All ScArY!!!!  Damn!  I just peed on myself again!  Who Can Blame Me!!!!!!  I am TERRIFIED!!!!


niner: You can make all the jokes you want, but discounting the power of religious ideology on the basis of sophisticated technology and military power is stupid. Nukes, national missile defence systems, superior military might, etc. are inconsequensial when compared to a religious dogma people are willing to die and kill for. Not that being a martyr for what one truely believes in is wrong, if you take a couple minutes and actually educate yourself on some of the teachings inside the Qur'an, you should at least be have some concern.

#17 niner

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:14 AM

niner: You can make all the jokes you want, but discounting the power of religious ideology on the basis of sophisticated technology and military power is stupid. Nukes, national missile defence systems, superior military might, etc. are inconsequensial when compared to a religious dogma people are willing to die and kill for. Not that being a martyr for what one truely believes in is wrong, if you take a couple minutes and actually educate yourself on some of the teachings inside the Qur'an, you should at least be have some concern.


I'm just trying to point out how absurd it is to think that we are going to be forcibly overtaken. When I look around at my fellow Americans, I don't see very many people who appear prone to accepting fundamentalist Islam any time soon. I worry a lot more about my country's slide toward fundamentalist Christianity. That's probably a hundred times more likely than us being subsumed by Islam. Some of the teachings of the Qur'an have been presented to me by Christian fundies, as it happens. Very scary and probably grossly misrepresenting the religion as practiced by the vast majority of Muslims. The Bible has some really scary stuff it it, too, but most Christians would tell you that it is only allegorical, or something like that.

#18 xanadu

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 05:44 PM

Hey, that sounds totally reasonable. Why is this idea not more popular in the states? I realize it's a generalization, but shit. Come on.


The media is controlled by those with unreasonable views on the matter. The average american is bombarded from cradle to grave with propaganda showing Israel to be the good guy who should be supported no matter what evil thing they are doing and showing their potential victims to be the bad guys. This same group also has our politicians by the nuts. The result of that is what you see Bush doing. Even in spite of all that propaganda, americans are getting fed up with Bush and his wars. Our hidden rulers know they can only push us so far so when it looks like a revolt might be brewing they back off a little. They may let the next president pull out of Iraq and the Iran invasion may have to be delayed until the public becomes more complacent.

#19 dangerousideas

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 06:57 PM

The following link provides some interesting reading regarding Muslim Canadian attitudes, with comparisons to their European counterparts.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...lim-survey.html

Interestingly, but in keeping with the CBC propensity to "engineer" social attitudes in Canada, some of the most interesting (and inflamatory) information from the survey was omitted from the report. For example, the finding that:

"some 11% of Canadian Muslim respondents stated that acts of terrorism against Canada would be "justified" because of Canadian foreign policy" (as reported on "The National" news program, 13 February 2007).

This appalling finding is understandably being downplayed by commentators from the Muslim community, who are publicly dismissing it as "unimportant" and "trivial". It is however consistent with the finding that 14% of Canadian Muslims identify with the "extremists" in the struggle between moderates and extremists within the Canadian Muslim community itself.

All of this in Canada - the world poster child of tolerance, diversity, peaceful co-existance, and "multiculturalism"! Even here, 1 in 10 of our Islamic citizens believes that murder and violence against their fellow citizens, presumably as some sort of inexplicable mechanism to redress some sort of real or perceived wrongs against them (or others like them, somewhere in the world, at some time in history, by someone) is OK.

This terrorist sympathizer 10% may be insane by any consistent clinical definition, but we Canadians collectively must also be unusually stupid, because we continue to sustain immigration policies that suck these dangerous nut-jobs into our society in record numbers!

#20 drus

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 06:59 PM

http://prophetofdoom...ic_Quotes.Islam


I wanted to address this website after having looked at most of it. I'm a Christian myself, not a Muslim (and not a very good Christian I might add, but who is? LOL!) I have, however, read the Koran just out of curiosity, because I believe that someone should see for themselves instead of taking another's word for it. Much of Muslim scripture (but not all) written after the Koran was reactionary and should be viewed in the same light as the later books of the New Testament written long after Jesus (the man) had died and the movement had changed slightly for the worse. I was curious about Islam and wanted to see what all the crap was about, so I bought a copy of the Koran (english translation of course) and read it. I don't speak Arabic or Aramaic, or any semitic language for that matter, but the Koran I purchased is a Penguin Religious Literature Classic and is supposedly a competent and reliable translation. I agree with you on the translation issue, and many language experts will tell you the same thing, something is always lost when translating language regardless of what languages are involved. I can tell you reasonably and intelligently first hand, that nearly all of the quotes on that website are taken out of context or translated poorly. Just as an example, and I may be wrong here, but take the idea or philosophy of 'Jihad'. As I understand it this was never meant to mean a physical battle or war against others but rather it is meant to be an inner struggle or fight against one's own personal vices and short-comings, in effect to better one's self from within. It is all about interpretation and the character of the person who is interpreting. However I will admit after reading the Koran, there are some things that could easily be misinterpreted or used for ill purposes, or construed as questionable by our present day standards. But this is also true of Judaism and to a lesser extent some of the Christian New Testament. This of course leaves something to be desired as regards the particular wording of certain scriptures and the world will always have fundamentalists. For Jews and, to a slightly lesser extent, Christians (not the majority and mostly evangelicals) it's 'militant zionism', for Islam it's the militant movement of Islamic based terrorism (and it's ends) we see today. Which ironically enough isn't all that different from militant zionism, which they are supposedly fighting against (that and it's ugly cousin, namely, corporate merchantilism, which is simply a perverted form of capitalism gone crazy) except that the before mentioned movements go about seeking to achieve their ends differently, one through economics and the other through physical force. Those who are intelligent enough can usually read between the lines and are, sadly enough, usually in the very small minority. Most, if not all, scripture is meant as metaphor to teach a moral or ethical lesson or make a point about an eternal truth of the human condition. You must remember that when these religions were penned, the world was a completely different place. I would suggest to anyone who has questions about anything, that they go to a real source for information. For example read the particular scripture in question for yourself, or visit an officially designated/licensed teacher in the particular subject and ask questions. With regards to religion in particular, I have found the comparative texts and anthologies very interesting and insightful. Never take another's word for it, go right to the source. If everyone did this I'de wager that Islamo-Fascism wouldn't even exist today! Be informed! Not to stir the pot here, but you should read the Talmud, which is Jewish scripture, it's fairly militant as well. Just take a look at some of the Old Testament of the Bible (the Torah for followers of Judaism) and you will see some religious militancy there as well. Some of the later books of the New Testament in the Christian Bible have their share as well. The one thing I find interesting is that most eastern spiritual philosophies (ie. Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucanism, Taoism etc...) are alot better at communicating these lessons and leave far less room for violent misinterprertation. I have also found that taken seperately from the rest of the Bible and placed in proper context, the teachings of Jesus are very similar to Buddhism and for the most part have been very distorted over the years. As regards Islam, you also have to understand that as a spirituality/religion it is about 500 or so years behind Christianity and several thousand years behind Judaism as far as evolution of the faith is concerned. This wouldn't be such a bad thing except for the fact that we have much more powerful weapons today than we did 500 or 1000 years ago, and so we are dealing with ' the Spanish Inquisition' type mentality in an age with nuclear weapons and other such WMD. The only real way this Islamo-Terrorism is going to be defeated is for the reasonable Muslims of the world to stand up united and unintimidated, and speak out for the true meaning and interpretation of their faith. The real outcome of this mess rests with them (and coming to terms with the Israel situation) probably more than they themselves (the good Muslims) realize it. We can continue to fight these idiot militants on the battlefield, yes, but this can only defeat people not ideas. Then again they (the Militant Islamic movement) sees us (the west) as the personification of 'evil'. How do you address an enemy of that mentality? I don't think we can negotiate an end to this entirely, physical confrontation is a given, but it is not the final answer only part of the solution.

#21 Mind

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 07:44 PM

Nice post drus. My wife grew up with the Koran in her home (muslim father), although she did grow up in America and was exposed primarily to Christianity. She has said some of the same things you have pointed out.

The one thing that is different is that the number of extremist Christians is far far less than the number of extremist muslims. That is the dangerous part. The bible (both old and new testament) is homophobic, sexist, and promotes slavery, yet these extreme parts of the bible have been summarily rejected by, I would say, over 99% of all Christians. The extremist muslims (most scholars estimate 20% are radical, or 200 million people) still follow some of the old writings which are very similar to the extreme parts of the bible. It is scary to think there are that many extreme followers of Islam, but I think they are becoming more marginalized. I read news sites from more moderate countries like Lebanon, Turkey, Singapore, Egypt, etc... and they look a lot like the west and nothing like the 3rd century AD.

#22 braz

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 09:55 PM

The only way that Radical Islam can "defeat" the West is only if it gets nuclear weapons in its arsenal, which is highly unlikely. However, there will be no real winner, all human special would get wiped out.

#23 xanadu

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:37 PM

Speaking of nukes, our idiots in government have already given nukes to the terrorists in the middle east. I'm not sure we can be trusted with them let alone violent extremists.

Good post drus.

#24 niner

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 02:34 AM

The bible (both old and new testament) is homophobic, sexist, and promotes slavery, yet these extreme parts of the bible have been summarily rejected by, I would say, over 99% of all Christians. The extremist muslims (most scholars estimate 20% are radical, or 200 million people)


The nutcase Christians, by which I mean the Dominionists and Pre-millenial Dispensationalists, you know, they guys who think that the Good Christians are literally going to be vacuumed up into the sky, come the Rapture.. These guys are way more than 1% of American Christians. Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series has sold 65 million copies. Talk about scary. Many of these people want to see chaos in the Middle East, because that is part of their Rapture fantasy. These people are pals with George Bush.

Now, the "20% extremist muslims"... exactly what is meant by extremist? People who want to bring about the Caliphate by violent means? I'm sure the number of such people is non trivial, and much larger now than 4 years ago (I wonder why?) but I have a hard time buying 20% of all Muslims in the world. Who are these "most scholars" and what is their definition of "extremist"?

#25 marcopolo

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 06:19 AM

I think liberals need to start realizing the extent of the threat that radical Islam poses to the modern secular world, both directly and inderectly. This article is right on the money


The End of Liberalism

#26 niner

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 08:29 PM

from The End of Liberalism:

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.


[wis]

#27 niner

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 09:01 PM

I read the Left Behind series... it was a really damn good story, don't be surprised!


Come the Rapture, can I have your car?

#28 marcopolo

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 09:58 PM

And you quoted that out of context, failing to qualify it with the paragraph that came before it explaining the logic of this position-

n their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.


Anyway, you failed to address the main point of his article. Why is it that the Christian right recognizes the threat of radical Islam but secular liberal humanists do not? Why is is that secular liberals recognize the threat that the Christian right poses but ignore the threat of the Islamists?

#29 niner

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 04:27 AM

The article is a biased opinion piece. If the Muslims had the sophisticated weaponry of the Israelis/Americans, do you think they would use the same tactics of asymmetric warfare that they use today? If Americans and Israelis are so morally pure, why are little Lebanese kids getting blown up daily by American cluster bombs that the Israelis scattered all over southern Lebanon?

For what it's worth, most of the liberals I know are Christians. But anyway, why does the Christian Right recognize "the threat of radical Islam" but "secular liberal humanists" do not? Maybe because liberals are reality based, and the Christian right believes in fairy tales like the Rapture and Creationism. The Christian Right is more likely than liberals to get their information from propaganda peddlers like Fox News. The Christian Right is closely aligned with the Bush administration, and tends to buy their lies and support their wars for oil and Israel. The main threat posed by radical Islam is a direct result of Bush's vanity war in Iraq. That has dramatically increased anti-Americanism throughout the world, and has increased the threat of terrorism as well.

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#30 marcopolo

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 08:17 AM

The article is a biased opinion piece.


And this is your biased opinion. I read a book of his called "The End of Faith" and he makes a very solid logical case why Western secularism is morally superior to Radical Islam. His premise is based on moral realism and the rejection of relativism as a moral philosophy. You can read the book to see for yourself- this is the premise the bases his "opinions" on.

If the Muslims had the sophisticated weaponry of the Israelis/Americans, do you think they would use the same tactics of asymmetric warfare that they use today?


You mean tactics like suicide bombers targeting civilians? I don't know, but I do know that the IRA, Basque separatists, FMLN, Viet Con, the Maoists in Nepal and Peru, the Tibetans in China, the Christians in Darfur are all at the same kind of tactical disadvantages, yet these groups did not use suicide bombers targeting civilians when they were fighting their assymetrical warfare campaigns. I wonder why-could it be because of faith based fanaticism perhaps?

If Americans and Israelis are so morally pure, why are little Lebanese kids getting blown up daily by American cluster bombs that the Israelis scattered all over southern Lebanon?


Perhaps it is because Hezbollah started a war by kidnapping Isreali soldiers and launching rockets into Isreali territory.

But anyway, why does the Christian Right recognize "the threat of radical Islam" but "secular liberal humanists" do not? Maybe because liberals are reality based, and the Christian right believes in fairy tales like the Rapture and Creationism.


If liberals were reality based, like you claim, they would realize that Islamists are every bit as dangerously deluded as the Christian right, the 14th century Christian right that is. They believe not only in the coming of the Mahadi or whatever, they also think they will go to a paradise in the afterlife if they sacrifice themselves "defending Islam" which they interpret as blowing themselves up to kill infedels. Why are liberals so concerned with Revelationist Christians but not Muslims who believe it is a duty and honor to kill infidels, and don't mind blowing themselves up in the process because of their beliefs of being rewarded in a glorious afterlife?



The main threat posed by radical Islam is a direct result of Bush's vanity war in Iraq. That has dramatically increased anti-Americanism throughout the world, and has increased the threat of terrorism as well.


Oh, you mean on September 11, 2001, there was very little in the way of a terrorist threat, and the threat only emerged after the US invaded and occupied Iraq in March 2003?




I'm just trying to point out how absurd it is to think that we are going to be forcibly overtaken. When I look around at my fellow Americans, I don't see very many people who appear prone to accepting fundamentalist Islam any time soon. I worry a lot more about my country's slide toward fundamentalist Christianity. That's probably a hundred times more likely than us being subsumed by Islam. Some of the teachings of the Qur'an have been presented to me by Christian fundies, as it happens. Very scary and probably grossly misrepresenting the religion as practiced by the vast majority of Muslims. The Bible has some really scary stuff it it, too, but most Christians would tell you that it is only allegorical, or something like that.
 
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I have an allegory for you. When a virus attacks a human, what is most likely to kill the human, the virus or the immune systems reaction to the virus? If Al Queda or some other Islamist group stages another successful attack on US soil, fundamentalist Christianity will gain alot more power, because they will be percieved as the only ones who recognized and tried to do something about the Islamists. The liberals will be percieved more like modern day Neville Chamberlins. When there is a real or percieved threat to security, people are willing to give up alot of freedom in exchange for security, that is just human nature. It is better to recognize the true nature of the Islamist problem and take rational steps to deal with it, even if that means fighting foreign wars, than to wait for another attack which will likely have very negative consequences for Western Civilization, especially if the attack is nuclear or some other form of mass destruction. Before you go off on Iraq, I also think that war was horribly mismanaged, but I don't think the US is responsible for "Muslim anger" , and I think involvement in fighting true threats like Iran is justified. I aslo think rational steps should be taken to develop alternative energy sources, which will in the long run reduce our dependence on Middleastern oil.

Edited by marcopolo, 26 February 2007 - 09:19 AM.





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