13 replies to this topic

[AgentNyder]

Anyone planning on undergoing cryonic preservation would probably be wise to consider that if they are going to be resurrected years into the future, how are they going to financially sustain themselves?

Assuming their won't be any radical changes to the financial system in 100-200 years time, cryonics patients could wake up and suddenly find they are completely broke in a strange new world.

So having some sort of managed fund that continues after death would probably be a wise option. Except for the possibility that the company that manages your fund goes out of business or that the legal precedents don't recognise your rights to your financial assets after 'legal death'.

But if it could work - imagine compound interest over 100+ years! [lol]

All joking aside, I think this could be potentially a very serious problem for those seeking cryonic preservation.

What are your thoughts?

[AgentNyder]

Found this on cryonet's FAQ:

6-14. How can I pay for my own revival and rehabilitation, and keep some of my financial assets after revival?
The Reanimation Foundation is set up to enable you to "take it with you" and provide financial support for your reanimation, reeducation, and reentry. It is based in Liechtenstein, which does not have a Rule Against Perpetuities, and thus allows financial assets to be owned by a person long after the person is declared legally dead.


Reanimation Foundation
c/o Saul Kent
16280 Whispering Spur
Riverside, CA 92504
(800) 841-LIFE



http://www-2.cs.cmu....0018.6.html#6-7

[AgentNyder]

Found more info on the 'Reanimation Foundation':

http://www.cryonics-...reanimation.htm

Doesn't seem to be too much competition in this particular area [angry] [":)]

[Gewis]

Well, I'm flat broke right now, but I won't always be. I'm a student. Maybe you'll be in a bit of debt and struggling at first, but, eh, there's nothing to stop you from learning new skills and putting them to use, fixing food replicators or inertia dampeners. Besides, the very novelty of your existence, having been born in the 20th century, might be something exploitable toward your financial advantage. And who knows what government will provide for people... maybe there WON'T be any money, or any need for it.

[galtsgulch]

I'm an international tax lawyer now working as a financial consultant for A. G. Edwards & Sons in Melbourne, Florida and a member of Alcor (for my bio, please see www.agedwards.com/fc/james.clement)

Some time ago, I received a copy of the Reanimation Foundation agreement to review. I found it very disappointing (I would be happy to discuss the problems privately with anyone who’s interested). Luckily, I don't think they're really doing anything with it.

I am now trying to get together with fellow Cryonauts to assist them with long-term financial planning, including helping them set up personal trusts and private-interest-foundations, variable annuities and whole-life insurance utilizing asset allocation via various negatively-correlated investments (e.g., stocks, bonds, real estate, & gold) as well as across sectors (e.g. large cap, small cap, industrials, pharmaceuticals, etc.) and types (value, blended, and growth).

If anyone would like a free consultation, please email me through the above-referenced web site or call me at (321) 676-0300 !

[JonesGuy]

The more I look at the question, the more I wonder how will most people support themselves when they reach retirement age? I hope that most people here understand that government old-age benefits will have no option other than to reduce. And I'm not just talking cryonics that's a problem. I mean even with successful life-extension, some people won't be able to maintain a decent lifestyle. All I can recommend right now is to become as wealthy as possible.

[AgentNyder]

QJones, that is a crucial problem and one that Government's can't ignore. Even with compulsory superannuation (which only adds to the cost of hiring employees), the nature of employment will ensure that Government's around the world will still have to pay old age pensions to an ever increasing elderly population.

The problem is that this will be unstainable in the near future. Because of low birth rates, the proportion of young people is shriking as old people increase due to ageing remedies (and also the fact that a 'baby boom' occured followed by a sustained period of low birth rates). Immigration is being used to 'retard' this effect yet it will not change the population projections significantly.

So already we have changed from a 'pyramid' scenario to a 'beehive' scenario and in the future it's likely to look more like a coffin - go here to find out what I'm talking about: http://www.immi.gov....on/age-fig4.pdf

I don't know how government's are going to resolve this crisis, but like you said QJones, you better start saving and not relying on the Government for your retirement, for the fact of the matter is: they just won't have the money to pay you!

[galtsgulch]

AgentNyder; from what I understand, this problem is hitting harder and sooner in many European countries than here. It will be interesting to see how they handle the problem. One solution, which seems to be gaining favor among politicians is opening borders and allowing more hard-working young people from economically depressed countries to immigrate and support the retiring citizens. For the time being, the immigrants are just thrilled to be in a first-world country and don’t mind getting taxed to support the retirees, even though they themselves haven’t been granted full citizenship and/or may not be allowed to enjoy retirement benefits when their time comes… However, at some point in the future they’ll realize that they have some economic clout, and may well choose to renegotiate this point!

[Lazarus Long]

True longevity means Social Security as it is currently configured is doomed, pensions will be based on length of service in any given company or government branch more and less upon the age of the pensioner. Performance based retirement will supplant any kind of given age based measure.

There is a blow-back effect on the young as well. As people live longer they DON'T retire, they work longer and longer holding younger people and immigrants down on the socioeconomic ladder as attrition no longer trumps seniority. But immigration is still necessary and you can expect a political demographic shift due to this effect.

It is already happening.

[DJS]

But immigration is still necessary and you can expect a political demographic shift due to this effect.

Lazarus, I would be interested to know what you think this effect will be. Due to their religious disposition, the wave of Mexican immigration can not be seen as a benefit to bio tech or the liberalization of social policy. In fact, quite the opposite, which concerns me.

And yes, this is off topic, but only slightly.

Edited by Kissinger, 04 August 2003 - 05:13 PM.

[Lazarus Long]

There is a serious disparity between the educated and uneducated quality of the immigration but the difference is ameliorated in as little as one generation according to most long term studies. Look at your own family's history for a comparative study.

This is however more complex than at first it seems and economic success trumps religion for behavior. It is a serious issue that deserves more attention and we will see the first major example of how it plays out as a test case in the coming presidential election as the Hispanic vote begins to supersede the African American voting block.

Creo que es tiempo para aprender español compadre. )

English is becoming a global second language but it is going to matched by as soon as 2050 for dominance in the US by Spanish. If this becomes a resurrection of the historic conflict between euro based ideologies that have pitted protestant against catholic and Anglo against Latin then we will become a house divided, if instead we recognize that this population of immigrants are Native American in origin then there is the possibility that we can integrate and fuse cultures and transcend the arcane cultural conflicts we're inheriting.

Yes it is off topic but I was responding to John's interesting extensionof the socio-economic aspect. We can certainly spin this one off to our little favorite of Sociology for that is where the subject truly belongs. In fact there may be one on immigration now.

[AgentNyder]

For those of us considering the option of cryonics, it would be worthwhile to find a reputable fund manager who could upkeep a suitable diversified investment portfolio.

The trick is finding such a person.

[JonesGuy]

The legalities of the whole issue are staggering.

First off, you're legally dead. So, any contract with you is over once you die. You can have a contract for your estate, but you have no claim to it. Who will sue your fund manager if they just take the money? No one.

The estate contract could be similar to the ones which hand out money for scholarships or charities ... it's not too tough to handle, but it will cost money. Like you said, you'd have to be careful.

Second off, you're legally dead. That means that the government could pass laws to take your money, and no one could really fight them. They wouldn't be stealing from a citizen, so they're not really depriving anyone of money. You see it as your "wake up fund". The government sees it as a growing hoard of cash that's doing nothing, put there by a kook. The government is always looking for new money ... in 200 years, no one would care a hoot about protecting your money.

The only real option is to get cryogenic storage to be seen as acceptable. Not anytime soon, buddy.

[galtsgulch]

QJones; Trusts don't have to report their beneficiaries to the Gov't so it would be difficult for the gov't to "find" a private trust dedicated to preserving assets for a "dead" (suspended) person.

AgentNyder; it's not that difficult to design a well-balanced portfolio; I particularly favor Harry Browne's approach, and I use this simple formula with my clients. One's reanimation funds could be subject to an "investment statement," which would spell out the desire for conservative growth via diversification. It's doubtful that one fund would maintain consistency long enough to be usable. It's therefore necessary to hire someone (at least a Trustee once you're suspended) who will follow the investment statement. Before you're suspended, you and/or your investment advisor can maintain the properly-balanced portfolio.