259 replies to this topic

[stephenszpak]

Aegist wrote>Interestingly, you did just raise a point which my fiance (Catherine, user name = catichka, cat for short) believes which you will find no modern church does: When Jesus returns and sets up 'the kingdom', it is a very real world phenomenon...AND my fiance just happens to be a very dedicated and well versed christian...

Stephen wrote> I'm stunned. Seriously. (no point here, just surprised) -Stephen

[Live Forever]

Aegist wrote>Interestingly, you did just raise a point which my fiance (Catherine, user name = catichka, cat for short) believes which you will find no modern church does: When Jesus returns and sets up 'the kingdom', it is a very real world phenomenon...AND my fiance just happens to be a very dedicated and well versed christian...

Stephen wrote> I'm stunned. Seriously. (no point here, just surprised) -Stephen

Stunned that anyone would put up with him and be his fiance?


(kidding!)

[stephenszpak]

I never said that.

[brokenportal]

I have more to reply to, but in the mean time Ide like to say that I agree with struct on elijahs position, as im sure many of you do.

[JonesGuy]

The Bible has no basis for morality, especially as a whole.

The entire Bible is based on Divine Command Theory, that one must listen to the Voice of God (through a man, mind you) to receive instruction on what is 'good'. It's assinine. There's no way to tell (reliably) a prophet from a kook, but you can't err on the side of caution because kooks greatly outnumber the putative prophets.

The Bible operates on the principal that some people have more insight into God's commands than others. That's a stupid system, especially since the commandments given by God (putatively) don't make sense in robust ethical constructs, so there's no way to logically verify the commandments.

Anyway, you can't trust what Jesus said, because he endorsed the Flood story, which we know is false. How can he know anything about the future, if he doesn't know anything about the past?

[stephenszpak]

Much of modern law is based upon:

You shall not murder.
You shall not steal.
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.


http://www.biblegate...context=chapter

There is also this passage:

35One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

38"This is the great and foremost commandment.

39"The second is like it, '(AD)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

40"(AE)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


http://www.biblegate...r=22&version=49

I think *some* things, as the above, may be easier to understand than others.

-Stephen

[stephenszpak]

QJones wrote> The entire Bible is based on Divine Command Theory, that one must listen to the Voice of God (through a man, mind you) to receive instruction on what is 'good'.

Stephen wrote> Christians should listen to God, not a man.
Christian cults are based upon "I have a relationship with God
that is superior to yours. Do what I say." This of course is NOT
Christianity.

-Stephen

[william7]

AND my fiance just happens to be a very dedicated and well versed christian (not of any church mind you, her family tend to just follow what they believe the Bible says, which incidentally contradicts virtually everything every modern church believes.) So I have discussed their perspectives on the Bible with them many times.

During these times, it's probably best to study the Scriptures independently of any religious organization. Even the ones that teach a lot of truth, teach a measure of error too. I'm hearing about the many problems with the old Worldwide Church of God, under Herbert Armstrong, the United Church of God an International Association, and the Living Church of God.

These churches have the gift of understanding prophecy and teach it real well. But, because they're organized under worldly models and structures instead of the early Christian Church model, they're unable to see how we will actually live in the Kingdom from God under Christ. In other words, they're still in need of refinement and the blessing of new knowledge as it increases in the end times as it was revealed to Daniel it would. Daniel 12:4.

So it appears I may be calling you brother in Christ sometime in the future after all. Serious believers have a better chance of a developing a happy marriage that'll endure under stress. I'm sure you won't pass by this very important key to a long and happy life.

The Good News magazine just published a nice article about the importance of marriage in attaining happiness in life. I've reproduced it below in case your interested.

Money may not buy happiness, but marriage can

In searching for happiness, marriage is more important than money, according to a December 2006 Gallup poll.

According to a Gallup news release, "Those who are married at any income level are as likely (if not more likely) to report being happy than even the wealthiest people who are not married." Put simply, marriage matters more than money when it comes to happiness.

The poll of more than 1,000 adults found that 84 percent of Americans are satisfied with their personal lives—a stark contrast with the only 30 percent who are satisfied with how things are going in the country.

Not surprisingly, those with higher incomes were more satisfied and happier than those with lower incomes, and those who were married reported greater happiness at all income levels.

The primary ingredient in American adults' personal happiness showed that those who were married were happier than those who were not, regardless of their income. The Supreme Being who created marital and family relationships tells us that it is a good thing for a man to find a wife. "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor [a delight and blessing] from the Lord" (Proverbs 18:22). (Source: Gallup News Service.)

http://www.gnmagazin...ewstrends69.htm (bottom of page)

[william7]

elijah, do you see how saying that the Bible is the basis for morality because the Bible says it is the basis for morality is circular reasoning?

I believe that Aegist was asking for some proof outside of what the Bible says, since he does not subscribe to the "ultimate" truth of the book, as you obviously do.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the most important things in life cannot be taken into the scientist's laboratory where they can be objectified, measured, quantified and subjected to a rigorous analysis and a logical reasoning process?

[JonesGuy]

Stephen wrote> Christians should listen to God, not a man.
Christian cults are based upon "I have a relationship with God
that is superior to yours. Do what I say." This of course is NOT
Christianity.

Sadly, God's feedback to prayers is as consistent as one's subconscious. The same feedback that told people that the Earth really is 6000 years old also tells them that homosexuality is a sin.

Anyway, all of Paul's teachings fall under the category of "my relationship with god is more enlightened than yours". Why do we think that it's okay to eat pork, but not stab a man in the butt with your pecker? Peter and Paul, not God.

[stephenszpak]

When God answers one of my prayers it has indeed happened. Since
you don't know God you will of course say: "This would have happened
anyway." or something similar. Not knowing God, you must come up with
an alternative explaination.

Homosexuality has always been sin. Long before the first century (ie. Peter
and Paul's time).

-Stephen

[JonesGuy]

When God answers one of my prayers it has indeed happened.

So, with your superior relationship with God, I'm supposed to believe you, and your interpretations of sin?
Whatever.

[mitkat]

Why do we think that it's okay to eat pork, but not stab a man in the butt with your pecker? 

[lol] Hilarious and sadly true!

[stephenszpak]

So, with your superior relationship with God, I'm supposed to believe you, and your interpretations of sin?
Whatever.

I have a relationship with God by His grace. I think/hope we can agree that
there is such a thing as sin. One or more here don't think there is such a thing.
Murder is a sin, for example. I'd state a bunch of scriptures here so that you
wouldn't have to rely on my interpretations, but it seems people here don't often
want that, so I'll skip it this time.

-Stephen

[brokenportal]

You have a relationship with god by his grace? And you know god exists because why?

[Aegist]

Yes, quoting scriptures is usually pointless.

When God answers one of my prayers it has indeed happened. Since
you don't know God you will of course say: "This would have happened
anyway." or something similar. Not knowing God, you must come up with
an alternative explaination.

I don't think it is an alternative explanation. its more like the 'real' explanation. The one which doesn't rely on ridiculous notions of eternal all powerful being specifically taking care of your most insignificant of problems....

Ever tried to catalogue all of the prayers God didn't answer? Or do we selectively ignore all of them?

So it appears I may be calling you brother in Christ sometime in the future after all. Serious believers have a better chance of a developing a happy marriage that'll endure under stress. I'm sure you won't pass by this very important key to a long and happy life.

hardly. Just because my partner believes it does not mean I am going to believe it. I'm listening, and I'm willing to be convinced, but it has to be some good convincing. So far the argument has been entirely from prophecy, and the prophecies I am hearing are too ambiguous for my acceptance. The only thing that I do like about her interpretation of the Bible is that God isn't omnibenevolent, God is just zis guy, you know? And god does what God wants. Satan is a transliteration of the word adversary (hence not a being), Heaven is a reference to the ruling class, hell refers to death (dirt, nothingness) and the trinity is a load of crap made up by the catholics.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Actually, when you remove 'God is omnibenevolent' from the picture, and the idea that God doesn't change, everything starts to make a whole lot more sense.

I still don't believe it verifies any of the crap in it, but it removes so many of the contradictions which the average christian double thinks their way through!

[stephenszpak]

Satan exists for real.
Hell exists for real.

[Live Forever]

Satan exists for real.

And he is trying to keep God out of California:
http://www.metacafe...._of_california/

[stephenszpak]

You have a relationship with god by his grace? And you know god exists because why?

He has revealed Himself to me (and many others). -Stephen
===============================================
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Jesus speaking (Gospel of John Chapter 6)

[Aegist]

Satan exists for real.
  Hell exists for real.

LOL, well since you put it so eloquently, how could I argue? [glasses]


But seriously, if you want your Satan and your hell, then I can't accept God. I mean, if God does exist, then God is pathetic and useless for he can't even make the afterlife safe for his creations. Screw him. He's not getting my prayer power.

(anyone here ever played black and white? That was a cool game.)

[JonesGuy]

I'd state a bunch of scriptures here so that you
wouldn't have to rely on my interpretations, but it seems people here don't often
want that, so I'll skip it this time.

Seriously, most of the Scriptures are valueless with regards to giving commandments. Most of the early ones were written by people who were told (by the same 'god') that the Earth was 6000 years old and created in 7 days. Clearly, the source of their information was wrong. The same chain of priests endorsed a literal reading of genesis as endorsed leviticus; commandments are useless if you have to flip a coin to determine if they're true.

Many of the latter 'sins' were extrapolated upon by Paul or Peter (hence my 'pork vs. bums' allusion earlier). Those two were following the classically-weak "obey what I write, because God tells me better than he tells you!" It would be a great system, if the kooks didn't massively outnumber the Inspired.

I think/hope we can agree that
there is such a thing as sin.

Unlikely. I'll agree that there are actions you can do that hurt yourself. I can agree that there are actions you can do which hurt others. You want to call those 'sins', sure, I can do that. But the Bible doesn't. And I bet you don't want to call those sins; I bet that you want to call 'sins' actions that contradict commandments in the Bible. Sorry, it doesn't work.

[Aegist]

You have a relationship with god by his grace? And you know god exists because why?

He has revealed Himself to me (and many others). -Stephen
===============================================
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Jesus speaking (Gospel of John Chapter 6)

Why can't you read up on the flying spaghetti monster, and understand just how ridiculous your religion looks to us?

The self referential justifications just don't inspire any rational person to belief!

[Aegist]

Satan exists for real.

And he is trying to keep God out of California:
http://www.metacafe...._of_california/

ROFLOLMAO

great christian behaviour!

Reminds me of that guy that Ricahrd Dawkins interviewed in his BBC program "The Root Of All Evil?". Near the end of that he interviews an ex-jewish muslim, and he asks the most innocent of questions about why religious people seem to be filled with such hate, and the guy replies with such a great line : "You know what I hate? I hate you atheists... etc etc etc"

I mean, could you make dawkins' point any better?

Religion inspires absolutism in people, which gives them feelings of moral superiorty, resulting in causation for aggresion, hate and war. And this is the source of morality you claim. What a joke.

[stephenszpak]

Satan exists for real.

And he is trying to keep God out of California:
http://www.metacafe...._of_california/

==============================================================




I do not think you will have much difficulty in keeping the patient in the dark. The fact that "devils" are predominantly comic figures in the modern imagination will help you. If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you.

Screwtape (from Screwtape Letter VII)

[JonesGuy]

The Gospel of John is considered to be the least reputable of the Gospels. It has the weakest chain-of-evidence to showing that the author even met Jesus.

There's a reason it's the most fantastic, and has all the miracles that are out of character for Jesus. You can't really trust what Jesus said anyway, because he's on record confirming the Flood myth (shoulda known better!)

[Aegist]

Oh no, he's quoting CS Lewis at us...

[stephenszpak]

Satan exists for real.
  Hell exists for real.

LOL, well since you put it so eloquently, how could I argue? [glasses]


But seriously, if you want your Satan and your hell, then I can't accept God. I mean, if God does exist, then God is pathetic and useless for he can't even make the afterlife safe for his creations. Screw him. He's not getting my prayer power.

(anyone here ever played black and white? That was a cool game.)

“A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.”

----C.S. Lewis

[Live Forever]

Wow. So you had the picture. You opened it in Windows picture viewer, then took a screen shot of the open picture, saved it as a completely separate picture and then posted it? Talk about doing things the hard way...

[stephenszpak]

QJones wrote> Unlikely. I'll agree that there are actions you can do that hurt yourself. I can agree that there are actions you can do which hurt others. You want to call those 'sins', sure, I can do that. But the Bible doesn't. And I bet you don't want to call those sins; I bet that you want to call 'sins' actions that contradict commandments in the Bible. Sorry, it doesn't work.

Stephen wrote> I'm not sure what you mean here. Perhaps you mean good and
evil don't exist. There is no evil on this Earth and all that stuff.

-Stephen

[JonesGuy]

No, just that we won't define 'sin' the same way. We could either agree that we're using the word to refer to things we both agree exist (i.e., actions which hurt you or hurt others), or we could agree that the word applies to contravening the commandments of whatever god we're discussing.

My main point is that the two things are mutually exclusive.