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New member, critique my protocol...advice


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#1 alpine

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:49 PM


Hi, I’m new here. I frequent many performance nutrition and bodybuilding based discussion forums, from AnabolicMinds and Mind & Muscle to Avant Labs. This board, along with those, seems to be a bit "ahead of the curve" so to speak.

I try to follow new findings and studies on various supplements and nutrition. I’m an avid weight trainer. I’m 24, 5’11, 210lb with about 12-13% body fat currently.
My main goals are:
(1) Overall health and longevity
(2) Improved body composition with an emphasis on lean muscle accrual & performance/recovery. Staying lean is also very important. I'd really like to come down a few % especially for summer.

** Updated my stack and also some comments/questions - 5/8/07
I’m also a 1st year law student so nootropics with pronounced benefits for reducing mental fatigue and improving cognitive function are also interesting. Sadly, my budget is limited as I am paying tuition and living on student loans. There are a lot of things & specific brands (Geronova, AOR) that I wish I could take daily.

My current daily protocol:
-2-3g vitamin C
-5-6g enteric fish oil capsules
-1000 IU vitamin D3
-1 multi-vitamin
-150-250mg Na-RALA
-2-2.5g ALCAR
-1500/1200/1000mg Glucosamine Chondroitin w/ MSN
-400-800mg Lecithin
-800-1200mg Garlic bulb extract (not aged) - is aged really "that" much more important?
-400 IU vitamin E
-1000mg Green Teat Extract (50% EGCG)
-Citrucel fiber (as needed if fiber intake is low for a particular day)

Probiotic: (*need more feedback, is it even worth the expense?)
-34mg (~2billion active) Acidophilus (because its cheap)
-Either 1 Dannon Activia (Bifidus Regularis)
-or- 1 DanActive (Lactobacillus casei) - I really like the idea of this product. It isnt exactly cheap though considering it's basically unproven. So much of the supplement/health info consumers get is just marketing based on bastardized pseudo-science rather than actual solid studies and evidence. I cant afford some of the high end premium probiotics out there. Is DanActive every day worth it?

Pre-workout (30-45min prior):
-1 serving flavored oatmeal
-Whey Protein Shake (either ON 100% whey or Ergopharm GF Pro depending on funds)
-2-3g Bulk Beta-Alanine powder
-3g Bulk L-Leucine (other aminos in shake)
-Half serving of Green Magnitude creatine:
1 serving = Magnesium 350mg
Magnesium Creatine Chelate 2500mg
Dicreatine Malate 2500mg
Betaine Anhydrous 2000mg
L-Taurine 2000mg
L-Tyrosine 500m
-GTE + caffeine, or occasionally another pre-workout stim/thermo like Ergo Amp or San Tight

Post-Workout:
-Whey Protein Shake + skim milk (30-60g protein)
-Half serving of Green Magnitude
-3g L-leucine (proetin+carb+leucine = major bump in mTOR/protein synth.)
-40-50g carbs – oatmeal, rice cakes, 100% red grape juice

Other supplements I take periodically (not staples, as funds permit):
-Cissus (40-50% ketosterone extraction) for occasional AC joint shoulder issues
-Avant Labs Sesathin (sesamine) – for fat loss & lipid profiles (would love some opinions on sesamine)
-Bulk TTA (see also: Designer Supplements - Melting Point)
-Gabatropin (Egropharm)
Always trying new & interesting performance enhancing products on and off
-Currently testing/reviewing 2250mg Millennium Sport Cordygen5
Cordeyceps extracts:
Cordyceps Sinensis Alohaensis Hybrid
Cordyceps Sininsis CS-4
Cordyceps Militaris
Cordyceps Sobolifera
Cordyceps Ophioglossoides
So far, pretty cool – noticeable aerobic performance boost, I don’t imagine it does much for overall muscle development though it could be nice for regular athletes. Pump is good too.
Looking to try some other worthwhile Adaptagens (Rhodiola).

Things I plan to add:

I ordered some new Bulk Na-RALA. Its better than R-ala and K-rala but slightly more expensive. 30% stronger than K-RALA and is a free-flowing powder
57g Na-RALA = 100g K-RALA
1000mg (1gram) RLA reaches a maximum concentration (Cmax) of 1.1ug/ml in human plasma - 100mg (0.1gram) Bio-Enhanced Na-RALA reaches a Cmax of 2.3ug/ml

*(Updated) In the BB industry, its often marketed as “weight control” product. Its recommended you take it 30min or so before large carb meals to control insulin response and therefore fat deposition. I know r-ala is good for you, but I question how valid these statements are in a non-diabetic person. Has anyone had weight loss with this technique? You would have to have perfectly stable, constant levels of circulating ALA to have enough impact on blood sugar to cause decent weight loss. I'm not sure I buy that.

Seriously considering Bulk Nettle root extract (60-90% Divanil) for freeing up more test via reduction of SHBG binding. 30-50% of our test is essentially unusable and "bound". That is rock solid fact. Nettle shows a lot of promise for freeing at least some of this up.

ResV is interesting but I’m not sold of bioavailability and absorption. I can’t validate it yet until I see definitive human oral intake data.

*(Need more feedback on this one) I used to take l-glutamine a long time ago. The more I read the more I realized most studies were done on trauma/burn/surgery patients and it was often IV. I began to doubt the oral absorption rates and effectiveness of free form glutamine. I’d come to the conclusion that in its current form (even peptides), it was a waste. I have since stopped. Still, so many atheltes swear by it. Many of them are experienced and informed and could tell the difference between a simple placebo. I have been getting a lot of colds lately. I don’t get as much sleep as I should and I “feel” like my immune system could use a boost. I also bite my nails at school which doesn’t help. Anyway, what are your thoughts on glutamine use? If not for a recovery/performance aspect, what about strictly immune system related benefits?

Most of my regular vitamins & fish oil come from Wal-mart because its cheap - Spring Valley brand( (Parent Co, Natures Bounty). I know this isnt ideal but I can’t afford high doses of premium brands of fish oil etc. How crappy (impure, contaminated) do you think their Fish Oil is? It tested out fine in consumer labs reports. Omacor would be amazing though.

Please critique my supplement regimen. What items could be removed. What items do you feel aren’t worthwhile? What should I add? Are there any vital supplements I should make a staple? Finally, sometimes I wonder if all this stuff is even worth it. In fact, sometimes I wonder if taking it all is putting more stress on my liver than its worth. Sometimes my additional supplements (not constants) can add up at certain times. I have been taking an insane amount of crap at once before. That is, until I saw some of your protocols. ;)

I want to nail down the best daily staples for overall health + my specific interests/goals while still keeping it as economic as possible. When making recommendations, remember - cost is a major factor. If its not easily worth the cost, it must be thrown out. Any dosages that should be adjusted?

I sort of saved up a lot of Questions for one post. I know its a lot but Please try to field them as you go and touch on at least most of them.

Edited by alpine, 09 March 2007 - 12:28 AM.


#2 Shepard

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:46 AM

For stuff you aren't taking, I'm a fan of NAC and astaxanthin. And, you're going to get a lot of recommendations to go for quality items, particularly your multi and fish oil. If necessary, I'd drop the Green Magnitude for bulk creatine/taurine.

What form of Vitamin E are you taking?

FWIW, I'm a fan of keeping a little fructose around workouts.

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#3 alpine

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:53 AM

Ya, I just wanted to give Green Mag a try. I tried a few types (SizeOn's creatine gluconate). I will probably buy bulk Dicreatine Malate after this. Green Mag is surprisingly economic though. 80 servings...

The Multi is just Centrum. The Fish Oil and the E are Spring Valley (Natures Bounty). The E is just standard dl-Alpha Tocopheryl. I sort of backed down on my E use when that longterm study came out showing increased death rate. Still, Im aware of the flaws in that study. I just didnt mega-dose it as much. Spring Valley always tests out fine. Its cheap and accessible. I'd rather take 5-6g of a cheaper brand then spend double and take half the actual fish oil that has a slightly better ratio. It's all coming from the same farm raised fish I would imagine. The preparation could be better in some cases I'm sure. I cant really validate the cost of premium "marketed" fish oil, especially at my dosages.

#4 Shepard

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 03:23 AM

I don't know how much your fish oil costs, but you can get about the same dosage (assuming 6g @ 180/120) from liquid Carlsons for ~$10/month. But, you probably won't find it locally at that price.

#5 alpine

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 03:32 AM

I cant imagine the taste of a tablespoon of fish oil. I know the oil is superior to caps but does it degrade THAT much?

keep the feedback/advice coming guys. What do you think of the various supps i mentioned...

#6 health_nutty

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:16 AM

Looks very good overall. Here are a few suggestions

1) Beta-alanine should be taken in divided doses ever day (not just preworkout). Maybe you are already doing this, but it isn't clear.

2) Take a 4 a day multi (or more) so the water soluble vitamins are in your bloodstream longer. Ideally you would be taking one multi every time you eat.

3) ALCAR is an excellent addition. It increases the mitochondria energy output. It's also a great preworkout energy booster (1 gram 30 min before preworkout drink). In addition I take a gram in the morning before breakfast and a .5 grams in the afternoon. In the AMES study, ALCAR alone increased free radical production inside the mitochondria. However, when ALA was added the free radical production was normal. This is why most people combine ALCAR with ALA.

4) I personally don't value piobiotics as much as some people seem too (unless you have digestive issues). I eat a bit of raw ginger (or take a ginger pill) after every meal. It's the best digestive aid I've tried.

5) I buy regular ALA put it in water (along with some other supps) and sip on it throughout the day.

6) That's too much vitamin E. I don't have the studies on hand, but 400IU is the maximum recommended dose.

7) Citricel is not necessary. You should be getting plent of fiber from your oatmeal, veggies and fruits.

8) The studies on Cordyceps were very dissappointing.

9) I like magnesium malate for my magesium source. It has malic acid which is a krebs cycle intermediary.

10) Replace gatorade postworkout with grape juice. It is mostly dextrose and contains lots of good phytonutrients.

11) Nettle extract. Sounds interesting but I'd want to see some studies to back it up. I've seen so much BS in the supplement industry I don't trust anything until I see a study.

12) I'm also not a big fan of taking individual amino acids *IF* they are abundant in normal food. Whey protein is very high in glutamine (if I remember correctly). However, I do supplement with Creatine and Beta Alanine because it is tough to get effective dosages through food. You might want to see how abundant the aminos you are taking are in whey (I think whey has quite a bit of leucine).

14) What else. Benfotiamine for AGE inhibition. Water based pomegranate extract is also good (I recommend pom40p). Low dose (1mg or less) melatonin is a no brainer (dirt cheap and studies to back up its use).

FYI. I get most of my stuff from BAC uncapped to save *lot* of money. I'm not sure if you have looked into that route.

Edited by health_nutty, 04 March 2007 - 07:38 AM.


#7 health_nutty

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:32 AM

I wrote my suggestions pretty quickly because there was a lot to cover. Let me know if you are interested in the studies behind it or more in depth answers on anything in particular.

#8 alpine

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 06:27 PM

Fantastic feedback.

I do break up the beta-alanine but not as much as I should. I normally only get 2-3 doses spaced out. A time release would be nice. Biotest makes one but I cant validate the inflated price. That company is sort of..uhm... well, lets just say Im not a huge fan.

So you dont value the r-ala as much as some do? Why?

I didnt realize alcar raised free radicals. :{ Did anyone consider removing it because of this?

What about aged garlic vs regular extract?

Could you elaborate on Benfotiamine for AGE inhibition?

I dont have digestive issues, it just seems like probiotics are becoming more valued. It could just be marketing. A major element of your overall immune system is your digestive health though, that much is at least partially true - correct?

Much appreciated...

pls keep them coming guys

#9 hormoneman

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 06:46 PM

Benfotiamine : A Potent AGE-Inhibitor

April 14, 2006 -
James South, MA

http://vitamin-resou...tail.cfm?id=491


Something else

Benfotiamine is the most potent of the allithiamines, a unique class of thiamine derivatives (vitamin B1) with a highly specific structure which enables them to pass easily through cell membranes. As such, it is much better absorbed (5-25 times better!) than thiamine and remains in the body for considerably longer. Benfotiamine is therefore much more effective at correcting traditional vitamin B1 deficiency (beri beri, alcoholism) than thiamine itself. However, its main benefits lie in a different area: Benfotiamine is remarkably effective at inhibiting the formation of AGE - Advanced Glycation Endproducts. It increases threefold the concentration of the endogenous enzyme transketolase which breaks down AGE and converts them into harmless compounds. AGE’s main targets are the nerves, blood vessels, eyes and kidneys, and since diabetics produce AGE in excess, this discovery is particularly significant for them. Regular supplementation with benfotiamine can significantly improve their quality of life as has been shown in controlled studies. Of course, benfotiamine, like carnosine or lipoic acid, is a valuable weapon for anyone wish to fight the inevitable process of tissue ‘caramelisation’. Glycation (caramelisation of cells), together with oxidation, is a basic mechanism of the biochemical breakdown associated with ageing, though the compounds capable of controlling it are fewer in number and less well-known. Benfotiamine is a remarkable AGE inhibitor, tested successfully not just in vitro and on animals, but actually on humans.


And another

Titre du document / Document title
Benfotiamine accelerates the healing of ischaemic diabetic limbs in mice through protein kinase b/akt-mediated potentiation of angiogenesis and inhibition of apoptosis
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
GADAU S. (1) ; EMANUELI C. (2 3) ; VAN LINTHOUT S. (1) ; GRAIANI G. (2) ; TODARO M. (4) ; MELONI M. (2) ; CAMPESI I. (2) ; INVERNICI G. (5) ; SPILLMANN F. (1) ; WARD K. (1) ; MADEDDU P. (1 6) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Experimental Medicine and Gene Therapy, National Institute of Biostructures and Biosystems (INBB), Osilo, ITALIE
(2) Molecular and Cellular Medicine, National Institute of Biostructures and Biosystems (INBB), Alghero, ITALIE
(3) Experimental Cardiovascular Medicine, Bristol Heart Institute, University of Bristol, Bristol BS2 8HW, ROYAUME-UNI
(4) Cellular and Molecular Pathophysiology Laboratory, University of Palermo, Palermo, ITALIE
(5) Besta Neurological Institute, Milan, ITALIE
(6) Multimedica Research Institute, Milan, ITALIE

Résumé / Abstract
Aims/hypothesis: Benfotiamine, a vitamin Bl analogue, reportedly prevents diabetic microangiopathy. The aim of this study was to evaluate whether benfotiamine is of benefit in reparative neovascularisation using a type I diabetes model of hindlimb ischaemia. We also investigated the involvement of protein kinase B (PKB)/Akt in the therapeutic effects of benfotiamine. Methods: Streptozotocin-induced diabetic mice, given oral benfotiamine or vehicle, were subjected to unilateral limb ischaemia. Reparative neovascularisation was analysed by histology. The expression of Nos3 and Casp3 was evaluated by real-time PCR, and the activation state of PKB/Akt was assessed by western blot analysis and immunohistochemistry. The functional importance of PKB/Akt in benfotiamine-induced effects was investigated using a dominant-negative construct. Results: Diabetic muscles showed reduced transketolase activity, which was corrected by benfotiamine. Importantly, benfotiamine prevented ischaemia-induced toe necrosis, improved hindlimb periusion and oxygenation, and restored endothelium-dependent vasodilation. Histological studies revealed the improvement of reparative neovascularisation and the inhibition of endothelial and skeletal muscle cell apoptosis. In addition, benfotiamine prevented the vascular accumulation of advanced glycation end products and the induction of pro-apoptotic caspase-3, while restoring proper expression of Nos3 and Akt in ischaemic muscles. The benefits of benfotiamine were nullified by dominant-negative PKB/Akt. In vitro, benfotiamine stimulated the proliferation of human EPCs, while inhibiting apoptosis induced by high glucose. In diabetic mice, the number of circulating EPCs was reduced, with the deficit being corrected by benfotiamine. Conclusions/ interpretation: We have demonstrated, for the first time, that benfotiamine aids the post-ischaemic healing of diabetic animals via PKB/Akt-mediated potentiation of angiogenesis and inhibition of apoptosis. In addition, benfotiamine combats the diabetes-induced deficit in endothelial progenitor cells.
Revue / Journal Title
Diabetologia (Diabetologia) ISSN 0012-186X
Source / Source
2006, vol. 49, no2, pp. 405-420 [16 page(s) (article)] (52 ref.)
Langue / Language
Anglais

Editeur / Publisher
Springer, Berlin, ALLEMAGNE (1965) (Revue)

Mots-clés anglais / English Keywords
Vertebrata ; Mammalia ; Rodentia ; Micronutrient ; Cell death ; Endocrinopathy ; Cardiovascular disease ; Enzyme ; Hydrolases ; Peptidases ; Mouse ; Vitamin ; Precursor cell ; Endothelial cell ; Cysteine endopeptidases ; Caspase ; Diabetes mellitus ; Animal ; Ischemia ; Age ; Reaction product ; Apoptosis ; Inhibition ; Angiogenesis ; Akt protein kinase ;
Mots-clés français / French Keywords
Vertebrata ; Mammalia ; Rodentia ; Micronutriment ; Mort cellulaire ; Endocrinopathie ; Appareil circulatoire pathologie ; Enzyme ; Hydrolases ; Peptidases ; Souris ; Vitamine ; Cellule précurseur ; Cellule endothéliale ; Cysteine endopeptidases ; Caspase ; Diabète ; Animal ; Ischémie ; Age ; Produit réaction ; Apoptose ; Inhibition ; Angiogenèse ; Akt protein kinase ;

002b21e01a ;
Mots-clés espagnols / Spanish Keywords
Vertebrata ; Mammalia ; Rodentia ; Micronutriente ; Muerte celular ; Endocrinopatía ; Aparato circulatorio patología ; Enzima ; Hydrolases ; Peptidases ; Ratón ; Vitamina ; Célula precursor ; Célula endotelial ; Cysteine endopeptidases ; Caspase ; Diabetes ; Animal ; Isquemia ; Edad ; Producto reacción ; Apoptosis ; Inhibición ; Angiogénesis ; Akt protein kinase ;
Mots-clés d'auteur / Author Keywords
Advanced glycation end-products ; AGEs ; Angiogenesis ; Apoptosis ; Benfotiamine ; Caspase ; Diabetes ; Endothelial progenitor cells ; Ischaemia ; Vitamin B1 ;
Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 13012, 35400013572921.0210


And another

In Vitro Kinetic Studies of Formation of Antigenic Advanced Glycation End Products (AGEs)
NOVEL INHIBITION OF POST-AMADORI GLYCATION PATHWAYS

(Received for publication, September 6, 1996, and in revised form, October 30, 1996)

A. Ashley Booth , Raja G. Khalifah , Parvin Todd and Billy G. Hudson
From the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, University of Kansas Medical Center, Kansas City, Kansas 66160-7421

Nonenzymatic protein glycation (Maillard reaction) leads to heterogeneous, toxic, and antigenic advanced glycation end products ("AGEs") and reactive precursors that have been implicated in the pathogenesis of diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, and normal aging. In vitro inhibition studies of AGE formation in the presence of high sugar concentrations are difficult to interpret, since AGE-forming intermediates may oxidatively arise from free sugar or from Schiff base condensation products with protein amino groups, rather than from just their classical Amadori rearrangement products. We recently succeeded in isolating an Amadori intermediate in the reaction of ribonuclease A (RNase) with ribose (Khalifah, R. G., Todd, P., Booth, A. A., Yang, S. X., Mott, J. D., and Hudson, B. G. (1996) Biochemistry 35, 4645-4654) for rapid studies of post-Amadori AGE formation in absence of free sugar or reversibly formed Schiff base precursors to Amadori products. This provides a new strategy for a better understanding of the mechanism of AGE inhibition by established inhibitors, such as aminoguanidine, and for searching for novel inhibitors specifically acting on post-Amadori pathways of AGE formation. Aminoguanidine shows little inhibition of post-Amadori AGE formation in RNase and bovine serum albumin, in contrast to its apparently effective inhibition of initial (although not late) stages of glycation in the presence of high concentrations of sugar. Of several derivatives of vitamins B1 and B6 recently studied for possible AGE inhibition in the presence of glucose (Booth, A. A., Khalifah, R. G., and Hudson, B. G. (1996) Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 220, 113-119), pyridoxamine and, to a lesser extent, thiamine pyrophosphate proved to be novel and effective post-Amadori inhibitors that decrease the final levels of AGEs formed. Our mechanism-based approach to the study of AGE inhibition appears promising for the design and discovery of novel post-Amadori AGE inhibitors of therapeutic potential that may complement others, such as aminoguanidine, known to either prevent initial sugar attachment or to scavenge highly reactive dicarbonyl intermediates.

Finally

Pharmacokinetics of thiamine derivatives especially of benfotiamine.

Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther 1996 Feb; 34(2): 47-50.

Loew D.



Pharmacokinetic data of orally administered lipid-soluble thiamine analogues like benfotiamine are reviewed and assessed. It is quite clear that benfotiamine is absorbed much more better than water-soluble thiamine salts: maximum plasma levels of thiamine are about 5 times higher after benfotiamine, the bioavailability is at maximum about 3.6 times as high as that of thiamine hydrochloride and better than other lipophilic thiamine derivates. The physiological activity (alphaETK) increased only after benfotiamine was given. Due to its excellent pharmacokinetic profile benfotiamine should be preferred in treatment of relevant indications.





A benfotiamine-vitamin B combination in treatment of diabetic polyneuropathy.

Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes 1996; 104(4): 311-6.

Stracke H, Lindemann A, Federlin K.



In a double-blind, randomized, controlled study, the effectiveness of treatment with a combination of Benfotiamine (an Allithiamine, a lipid-soluble derivative of vitamin B1 with high bioavailability) plus vitamin B6/B12 on objective parameters of neuropathy was studied over a period of 12 weeks on 24 diabetic patients with diabetic polyneuropathy. The results showed a significant improvement (p = 0.006) of nerve conduction velocity in the peroneal nerve and a statistical trend toward improvement of the vibration perception threshold. Long-term observation of 9 patients with verum over a period of 9 months support the results. Therapy-specific adverse effects were not seen. The results of this double-blind investigation, of the long-term observation and of the reports in the literature support the contention that the neurotropic benfotiamine-vitamin B combination represents a starting point in the treatment of diabetic polyneuropathy.





Benfotiamin inhibits intracellular formation of advanced Glycation endproducts in vivo.
Diabetes. 2000 May; 49(Suppl1): A143(P583).
Lin J, Alt A, Liersch J, Bretzel RG, Brownlee MA, Hammes HP.

We have demonstrated previously that intracellular formation of the advanced glycation end product (AGE) N-[Epsilon]-(carboxymethyl)lysine (CML) inversely correlates with diabetic vascular complications independently from glycemia (Diabetologia 42, 603, 1999). Here, we studied the effect of benfotiamine, a lipid-soluble thiamine derivative with known AGE-inhibiting properties in-vitro on the intracellular formation of (CML) and methylglyoxal-derived AGE in red blood cells. Blood was collected from 6 Type 1 diabetic patients (2m, 4f, age 31.8 ± 5.5 years; diabetes duration 15.3 ± 7.0 years) before and after treatment with 600 mg/day benfotiamine for 28 days. In addition to HbA1c (HPLC), CML and methylglyoxal were measured using specific antibodies and a quantitative blot technique. While treatment with benfotiamine did not affect HbA1c levels (at entry: 7.18 ± 0.86%; at conclusion 6.88 ± 0.88%; p not significant), levels of CML decreased by 40% (737 ± 51 arbitrary units/mg protein (AU) vs 470 ± 86 AU; p<0.01). The levels of intracellular methylglyoxal were reduced by almost 70% (1628 ± AU vs 500 ± 343 AU; p<0.01). The data indicate that thiamine derivatives are effective inhibitors of both intracellular glycoxidation and AGE formation.





Benfotiamine blocks three major pathways of hyperglycemic damage and prevents experimental diabetic retinopathy.

Nat Med 2003 Mar; 9(3): 294-9.

Hammes HP, Du X, Edelstein D, Taguchi T, Matsumura T, Ju Q, Lin J, Bierhaus A, Nawroth P, Hannak D, Neumaier M, Bergfeld R, Giardino I, Brownlee M.



Three of the major biochemical pathways implicated in the pathogenesis of hyperglycemia induced vascular damage (the hexosamine pathway, the advanced glycation end product (AGE) formation pathway and the diacylglycerol (DAG)-protein kinase C (PKC) pathway) are activated by increased availability of the glycolytic metabolites glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and fructose-6-phosphate. We have discovered that the lipid-soluble thiamine derivative benfotiamine can inhibit these three pathways, as well as hyperglycemia-associated NF-kappaB activation, by activating the pentose phosphate pathway enzyme transketolase, which converts glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and fructose-6-phosphate into pentose-5-phosphates and other sugars. In retinas of diabetic animals, benfotiamine treatment inhibited these three pathways and NF-kappaB activation by activating transketolase, and also prevented experimental diabetic retinopathy. The ability of benfotiamine to inhibit three major pathways simultaneously might be clinically useful in preventing the development and progression of diabetic complications.





Effectiveness of different benfotiamine dosage regimens in the treatment of painful diabetic neuropathy.

Arzneimittelforschung 1999 Mar; 49(3): 220-4.

Winkler G, Pal B, Nagybeganyi E, Ory I, Porochnavec M, Kempler P.



The therapeutic effectiveness of a benfotiamine (CAS 22457-89-2)-vitamin B combination (Milgamma-N), administered in high (4 x 2 capsules/day, = 320 mg benfotiamine/day) and medium doses (3 x 1 capsules/day), was compared to a monotherapy with benfotiamine (Benfogamma) (3 x 1 tablets/day, = 150 mg benfotiamine/day) in diabetic patients suffering from painful peripheral diabetic neuropathy (DNP). In a 6-week open clinical trial, 36 patients (aged 40 to 70 yrs) having acceptable metabolic control (HbA1c < 8.0%) were randomly assigned to three groups, each of them comprising 12 participants. Neuropathy was assessed by five parameters: the pain sensation (evaluated by a modified analogue visual scale), the vibration sensation (measured with a tuning fork using the Riedel-Seyfert method) and the current perception threshold (CPT) onthe peroneal nerve at 3 frequencies: 5, 250 and 2000 Hz). Parameters were registered at the beginning of the study and at the end of the 3rd and 6th week of therapy. An overall bneneficial therapeutic effect on the neuropathy status was observed in all three groups during the study, and a significant improvement in most of the parameters studied appeared already at the 3rd week of therapy (p < 0.01). The greatest change occurred in the group of patients receiving the high dose of benfotiamine (p < 0.01 and 0.05, resp., compared to the othr groups). Metabolic control did not change over the study. It is concluded that benfotiamine is most effective in large doses, although even in smaller daily dosages, either in combination or in monotherapy, it is effective.

Prevention of cardiac autonomic neuropathy in dogs with Benfotiamin.
Koltai MZ.
In Gries FA, Federlin K. Benfotiamin in the Therapy of Polyneuropathy.
New York: Georg Thieme Verlag, 1998; 45-9.

Experimentally-induced diabetes of the dog leads to disturbances in the autonomous neurological function of the heart after approximately 3 months of continuously- observed diabetes. As signs of autonomic cardiac neuropathy, the heart rate variability and Valsalva ratio clearly fell in the untreated diabetic animals. Oral benfotiamin, administered from the sixth day after diabetes-induction, prevented or at least delayed these changes. According to the results, treatment with fat-soluble benfotiamin can play an important role in the therapy and prevention of cardiac autonomic neuropathy, apart from any effect on diabetic metabolic disturbances

#10 health_nutty

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:03 PM

"I do break up the beta-alanine but not as much as I should. I normally only get 2-3 doses spaced out. A time release would be nice. Biotest makes one but I cant validate the inflated price. That company is sort of..uhm... well, lets just say Im not a huge fan."

I agree, I don't like biotest. If you drink water throughout the day, you could just buy bulk Beta-alanine and put it in your water (its nearly tasteless).

"So you dont value the r-ala as much as some do? Why?"

I believe the r-ala is the active isomer, but r-ala only products are much more than 2x expensive (and then you have to deal with the stability issue). Regular ala is a 50/50 mix of the r and s isomers. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that the s-ala negative. In europe where ala is prescribed I believe they use regular ala. This is my reasoning and not everyone here agrees with it. For me it is just about price.

"What about aged garlic vs regular extract?"

Aged is superior, but regular extract has some (probably most of the benefits as well). Here is a link to kyolic research summary of 534 studies (keep in mind the obvious conflict of interest when you read it). You can read the actual studies referenced if you are interested. It's not all about Aged versus regular, but it does cover it quite a bit:

http://www.kyolic.co..._MayVersion.pdf

"Could you elaborate on Benfotiamine for AGE inhibition?"

LEF has pretty good info on advanced glycation endproducts (AGE). Here is one article on benfotiamine specifically.
http://search.lef.or...x... glycation

I picked benfotiamine over carnosine (another popular AGE inhibitor) due to excellent results in vivo studies. Carnosine is great AGE inhibitor in vitro, but has questionable bioavailability.

"I dont have digestive issues, it just seems like probiotics are becoming more valued. It could just be marketing. A major element of your overall immune system is your digestive health though, that much is at least partially true - correct? "

Honestly I haven't researched this enough to say one way or the other. I just haven't come across anything compelling yet.

#11 hormoneman

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:12 PM

N-Acetyl-L-Carnosine (NALC)

NALC is an acetylated carnosine that is not hydrolyzed (broken into its
two amino acid components) quickly by the enzyme carnosinase. Because of
this it can proceed through the bloodstream and reach cells while still
intact where it will be deacetylated to produce carnosine. In this way
it acts as a kind of time-release carnosine. It is currently used in
eyedrops for this very reason, that it will get further into the lens
before it is broken apart and, in that way, will better perform its
function. Although there is currently no research involving human oral
usage, all theory suggests that it will eliminate the need to "swamp"
the carnosinase enzyme with high dose carnosine (a highly suspect action
to take) and be effective by the same mechanisms, as is carnosine in
cellular experiments, at much lower intake dosages.

#12 niner

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 03:10 AM

So you dont value the r-ala as much as some do? Why?

I didnt realize alcar raised free radicals. :{ Did anyone consider removing it because of this?

What about aged garlic vs regular extract?

Health_nutty has already well covered this and more, but I'll throw in my two cents.. There has been a lot of marketing that pushes R-ALA vs the racemic product. The evidence for S-ALA being actively bad, as opposed to neutral hasn't been compelling to me. I have noticed that the price premium for R over racemic has come down, so there's not as much reason to not use R as there used to be, EXCEPT... the low cost R is not sustained release. ALA has such ridiculously fast kinetics that unless you take it all day long (and all night) you will not be covered full time. Where this is important to me is with ALCAR. If ALCAR is raising free radicals, then I want the lipoic acid to be there the whole time the ALCAR is. ALCAR has a much longer half life than ALA. Because of this, I really prefer a sustained release formulation for ALA. I'm using AOR's right now, which is R, and pretty expensive. Jarrow and someone else that I've forgotten the name of have sustained release racemic ALA that is much cheaper than AOR. I tried the Jarrow but it gave me indigestion. I plan to track down the other one and give it a try.

As for aged garlic, it seems like most of the research has been done using Kyolic's aged stuff. At least Kyolic is not crazy expensive, and it's said to not give you garlic breath.

#13 alpine

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:08 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. Keep the suggestions/critiques coming.

melatonin was mentioned. I thought this had sort of fallen out of favor again. Are there new studies supporting it?

So despite ALCAR increasing free radicals, nobody feels it outweighs the benefits? I understand ALA is used to counter this but still...

#14 health_nutty

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 03:52 PM

"In the area of anti-aging research, Dr. Bruce Ames has had very promising results with this combination of nutrients. Mitochondrial damage is a significant factor in the aging process, and ALCAR greatly improves mitochondrial function when given to old rats. Along with this comes improved short term memory and cognitive function, an effect that has also been observed when elderly humans are given ALCAR. However, Dr. Ames also found that when rodents were given high (but not low) doses of ALCAR, hepatic antioxidant status was lowered. ALA prevented this, and also caused an even further improvement in mitochondrial function. Ames concluded, "Supplementing the diet of old rats with ALCAR and LA significantly improves many of the most frequently encountered age-related changes in mammals – namely loss of energy metabolism, increased oxidative stress, decreased physical activity, and impaired cognitive function.""

http://www.brainreload.com/alcar.php

A good discussion on melatonin:

http://www.imminst.o...&t=12711&hl=&s=

#15 alpine

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:36 PM

Interesting stuff... I must say my opinions on ALA are changing. I need to do some more reading. Many in the supplement industry have attempted to make ALA seem obsolete in the wake of new R-ala type stuff. I did already order that Na-RALA though. I got it decently priced bulk though.

I didnt know Melatonin was such a potent anti-oxidant. Much more so than VitC... I might add it back into my protocol.

healthy_nutt: you mentioned "studies on cordyceps have been disappointing." Im interested if you have any of those studies bookmarked or anything. I will do some digging. Im just testing out that product to write a review on a forum. I dont make it a standard or anything.

Interestingly, Dr. Andrew Weil (pretty conservative in terms of supplements) noted that he takes Cordyceps in his last book. However, he said he wasnt positive they worked. He also mentioned he takes ALA and grape seed. He is normally known for speaking out against recommending new/unproven supplements. He said he has always been "a big fan of mushrooms" even alluding to hallucinogenic ones. I was shocked. haha... Actually, it was the last issue of Skeptic magazine. There was an article on new/unproven supplements. The same article basically made Ray Kurzweil look like a clown. He does back quite a few things that are proven totally bogus (alkalized water etc.) I would defiantly check it out if you have access...

Edited by alpine, 05 March 2007 - 08:04 PM.


#16 health_nutty

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:45 PM

Here is the info copied from Jamfropsi's post below:
http://www.imminst.o...=238&t=14181&s=

Colson, S.N., F.B. Wyatt, D.L. Johnston, L.D. Autrey, Y.L. FitzGerald, and C.P. Earnest. Cordyceps sinensis-and Rhodiola rosea-based supplementation in male cyclists and its effect on muscle tissue oxygen saturation J. Strength Cond. Res. 19(2):358-363. 2005.-Cordyceps sinensis (Cs) and Rhodiola rosea (Rr) are herbs used in traditional Chinese medicine to treat a multitude of ailments as well as to enhance performance. The purpose of this research was to examine the effects of a formula containing Cs and Rr (Cs-Rr) on circulatory dynamics, specifically muscle tissue oxygen saturation (StO sub(2)), in male subjects during maximal exercise. This study followed a double blind, randomized, placebo-treatment, pre-post test design. Capsules were administered to 8 subjects who were randomly assigned to 1 of 2 groups. The treatment group received Cs-Rr, and the control group received a placebo. All subjects performed 2 exercise stress tests to volitional fatigue on a cycle load ergometer. There were no significant (p <= 0.05) differences in StO sub(2) slope, StO sub(2) threshold (StO sub(2T)), VO sub(2)max, ventilatory threshold (V sub(T)), or time to exhaustion (T sub(E)) between or within the treatment or control group. In conclusion, Cs-Rr did not significantly enhance StO sub(2).


CS (Cordyceps sinensis) is a time-honored tonic food and Chinese herbal medicine. The purposes of this study are: (1) to determine the blood levels of luteinzing hormone (LH) and testosterone after taking CS. (2) to investigate the effects of CS supplementation on metabolic substrates, respiratory compositions and endurance performance, and (3) to investigate the effects of CS supplementation and heavy-resistance training on body composition, blood biochemistry, and total maximal muscle strength. Subjects ingested 3 capsules (400mg CS/capsule) twice a day. The results showed no significant difference of LH concentration in plasma before and after supplementation. After supplementation of CS, the testosterone increased 21.0 % for 21 days, and increased 11.5 % for 28 days as compared with the values of pre-supplementation. Four weeks of CS supplementation, the subjects tend to use free fatty acid as fuel source during the endurance exercise. However, CS supplementation may not improve submaximal endurance exercise performance in our study. Eight weeks of CS supplementation combined with heavy-resistance training could significantly increase hemoglobin level and total maximal muscle strength.

The objective of this study was to test the endurance effects of an herb, Cordyceps sinensis (Cordymax Cs-4 - Pharmanex, Provo, Utah), on competitive male cyclists during a five-week period. This study followed a randomized, double-blind pre-test-post-test design. The independent variable was a capsule supplement (placebo or Cordymax Cs-4). Maximum oxygen uptake (VO2peak), time to complete endurance time trials, and ventilatory threshold (VT) were measured as dependent variables. Thirty male endurance trained cyclists, ranging in age from 18 to 35 years, participated in the study. Twenty-two subjects completed the study. Each subject performed 5 exercise trials: a pre- and post-VO2peak test, a familiarization trial, and a pre- and post-endurance timed trial test. All testing was performed at a similar time of day for each subject, with at least 3 days between exercise trials. Subjects' cycling hours per week were controlled. We pre-tested, supplemented for 37 days while subjects maintained their training, and post-tested. We measured VO2peak time (endurance timed trials) and VT before and after a supplementation period, and compared measurements. Subjects' cycling training was assessed during the first week of supplementation and then maintained through weekly training logs for the remainder of the study. To insure consistent training, we met weekly with each subject to check cycling training logs. Results showed no significant differences between pre- and post-test VO2peak, endurance timed trials, and/or VT measurements between the placebo (PLA) and Cordymax Cs-4 (CS) groups. Overall, CS did not provide any endurance performance improvements in male competitive cyclists after a supplementation period.

#17 health_nutty

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:52 PM

I didnt know Melatonin was such a potent anti-oxidant. Much more so than VitC... I might add 1-2g 30min before bed back into my protocol. 
.


I would recommend taking a gram or less. More is not better.

#18 alpine

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:56 PM

Interesting... no VO2 differences at all. After a couple weeks I "seemed" to notice better endurance during my daily post-workout cardio. I normally do 20min @ 80% or rotate in some HIIT style cardio. Anyway, I sort of stopped paying attention and I had gone 32min w/out even noticing. I was a bit surprised because I didn't feel that tired or winded. So hard to judge things like this when Placebo is involved. :(

Also, that sudy was JUST CS-4. This product is:
Cordyceps Sinensis Alohaensis Hybrid
Cordyceps Sininsis CS-4
Cordyceps Militaris
Cordyceps Sobolifera
Cordyceps Ophioglossoides

I'll look around for more studies. Do you have anymore? Im surprised Weil backs them if there arent any studies doing the same... he is so conservative (mainstream oriented).

I didnt know Melatonin was such a potent anti-oxidant. Much more so than VitC... I might add 1-2g 30min before bed back into my protocol. 
.


I would recommend taking a gram or less. More is not better.


I got confused. Heh, most products are like 3-5mg. Imagine taking 1g wroth [:o] . The Melatonin I have in my cupboard is 3mg per pill. Whats the ideal dosage? I was thinking 3-6mg?

Edited by alpine, 05 March 2007 - 08:25 PM.


#19 steelheader

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 08:08 PM

Alpine,
Would you mind sharing your source of Na-RALA in bulk?
thanks!

#20 alpine

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 08:13 PM

Ya, I hope its not against board rules.

http://www.nutraplanet.com

They sell BB type supplements along with a lot of custom bulk cutting edge stuff. He's starting to do some caps. Dsade sources it all. He used to work with Bulk Nutrition for their custom bulk line (huge company now). He went out on his own. He has a VERY solid rep and I trust all his stuff. He's the type of guy that will delay a hugely hyped presale of something if the batch doesn't test out well enough or something. Never seen a shady report dealing with any of his products quality. His Beta-Alanine is the best I have seen. It's hard to trust someone in this industry but a lot of people seem to trust him...

Keep the advice/critiques coming. I know there are more opinions on the ALA types! [lol]

Edited by alpine, 05 March 2007 - 08:34 PM.


#21 curious_sle

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 08:55 PM

alpine, 3mg is plenty less might be smarter but it won't hurt you. Best if it was a time release but somehow i guess it's Now's 3mg :-) and that ain't timerelease

#22 alpine

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:21 PM

Ya man.. Im on a budget :{

Whole point of this thread is to streamline my supplement regimen to get the most bang for my buck.
Eliminate worthless stuff and add critical items.

#23 health_nutty

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:39 PM

I got confused. Heh, most products are like 3-5mg. Imagine taking 1g wroth [:o] . The Melatonin I have in my cupboard is 3mg per pill.  Whats the ideal dosage? I was thinking 3-6mg?


I got confused too! I meant 1mg or less.

#24 health_nutty

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 06:05 AM

One more suggestion since you are an athlete. Athlete's are often deficient in zinc. Take an extra 50mg of zinc (from zinc citrate or some other high absorption zinc)

#25 alpine

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:26 AM

What should my ALCAR and Na-RALA dosages be? I think I can dose the Na-RALA lower than normal R-ALA.

30% stronger than K-RALA and is a free-flowing powder
15g Na-RALA = 20g K-RALA
57g Na-RALA = 100 g K-RALA

To deliver a 100 mg active dose of RLA required 250 mg K-RALA-40%
To deliver a 100 mg active dose of RLA requires 143 mg Na-RALA-70%

So maybe 150-200mg spaced over as many doses as I can throughout the day?
And the ALCAR in about 2 doses totaling 600mg/day?
Should I also consider supplementing Biotin? My multi only has 40mcg...

I was thinking since Na-RALA is completely water soluble I can put some in a water bottle and sip on it in classes and stuff. This way I can get sustained levels without paying outrageous prices for the sustained release ALA products. It may not be as good as a true sustained release (because of when youre asleep) but its better than 2-3 individual doses and certainly better than nothing at all. The price for timed release ALA is ridiculous and who knows how effective it truly is anyway. It's pretty hard to produce ANYTHING that has a perfect sustained release over 12 or 24 hours - especially with something like ALA. Even the Pharmas haven't done time released perfectly. Im not sure I buy the hype...


Update:

I looked around and saw some more threads on the whole time release thing. I added this post and I will repeat it here.

Im no expert, but based on what I can dig up, I'm not sure all these "sustained release" brands are much more than marketing hype anyway. They are certainly inflated in price.

There is no doubt that achieving a true sustained, steady release of ALA so that it remained in systematic circulation would be very valuable. The Question is do these supposed time release products actually achieve that? I HIGHLY doubt that some of these companies putting out sustained release products are actually producing the same type of muti-layered, enteric coated time release tablets that pharmas put out (expensive process). If your time release ALA in a cap you can be pretty sure its bullshit. We, the consumer, are the only ones really looking out for us.

Lets keep it real on these products. These guys (unregulated) make them AS CHEAP AS POSSIBLE. If you believe they spare no expense to bring you the finest then you are a sucker. I'm not buying the time release hype even with your precious AOR I see hyped all to hell around here. I'm not familiar with AOR at all. Perhaps it is one of these types of tablets done in a legit manner. I'd definitely have to see some solid proof. Most of the GOOD sustained release matrix formulations are patented. It would add significant cost to a product to do this. If it does it, the product might possibly list the method and or a trademark of the matrix used since its a selling point.

To expect the same level of "sustained release" as seen in high quality Pharmaceuticals from these products in the "vitamin/herb/supplement" industry is a bit of a stretch. This stuff is unregulated and cost is STILL the bottom line. Dont buy the hype is all I'm saying. A true time release enteric coated tablet is VERY EXPENSIVE. Thats why you almost only see them in real pharma products. I would expect a board and membership of this (apparent) caliber to already be talking about this and questioning it by now. It doesn't seem like it has...

Edited by alpine, 08 March 2007 - 05:16 AM.


#26 health_nutty

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:57 AM

You could bump the ALCAR dosage up (1.5g to 3g). ALCAR is great because it's one of those supplements you really feel (much more energy)

"ALCAR Therapeutic Dosages
Typical dosages for the diseases described here range from 500 to 1,000 mg 3 times daily. Carnitine is taken in three forms: L-carnitine (for heart and other conditions), propionyl-L-carnitine (for heart conditions), and acetyl-L-carnitine (for Alzheimer's disease). The dosage is the same for all three forms."

http://www.cellhealt...-carnitine.html

#27 alpine

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:58 AM

Does the ALA dose need to rise proportionally to the ALCAR dose?

Also, be sure that the dosage recommendation you specify isnt for just L-carnitine (free form) and not ALCAR specifically. L-carnitine is taken in higher dosages than ALCAR should be (I belive). 3g of ALCAR sounds like quite a bit. I could be wrong though...

Edited by alpine, 08 March 2007 - 05:44 AM.


#28 health_nutty

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 05:27 AM

The quote was for alcar. Here is more info on alcar from LEF. The 1.5g to 3g is pretty consistent across multiple sources, btw.

http://www.lef.org/p.../php-ab028.html

#29 alpine

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 11:03 PM

Wow, I got my Na-RALA in. I took a 1/4 teaspoon and just dumped it into my mouth w/ some juice and swallowed. That method works fine. I took some again but this time I got some square on my tongue and also a lil on the back on my throat. I'm not so sure it would be bearable to mix 1/4 ts in with a bottle of water to "sip on". It might make the entire thing taste horrible. I don't know if its enough to dilute the taste down.

By the way - I *updated* my stack in the first post to show changes I made. I also modified some of my questions/comments in that same post.
Thanks for all the advice. Please keep it coming. I want the most effective stack for a strength athlete who is also concerned with overall health and longevity. If you can offer ways to streamline (reduce) or enhance it in anyway way, please do. Cost is a major factor for me...

Edited by alpine, 08 March 2007 - 11:59 PM.


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#30 Shepard

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 11:35 PM

I was going to tell you about the horrendous taste of bulk Na-RALA. It also doesn't mix well. If you find something that it mixes in and doesn't taste horrible, let us know.




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