43 replies to this topic

[DJS]

What I am trying to get at, is the assumption that psychiatric help should be dispensed to 'help' someone who wants to kill themselves. ....This is such a dodgy topic, but I'll press on: 'helping' someone change their mind about whether they want to stay alive or not, could go both ways. Of course it is easy to argue for why alive is on the higher end of preferences for that spectrum, but why should outsiders take that challenge on?

It is a dodgy topic. How would you deal with 14 year olds who want to kill themselves? Do they have the mental capacity to truly understand the consequences of their actions? What about someone whose experiencing severe emotional trauma after the death of a loved one? The side of the argument that poses these questions believes that inadequate mental capacity is a valid reason for society not condoning suicide.

The other side argues that society really has no business or realistic way of determining what constitutes adequate or inadequate mental capacities, and autonomy should be absolutely left to the individual.

I've heard the back and forth on the issue of suicide many times before. Both sides can bring up valid points and there is no clear resolution to the ethical dilemma. Yet another individual vs state paradox.

My personal view on suicide is *make sure you get your whole head in front of the shot gun* (j/k). Those who are serious about suicide will succeed in terminating themselves the vast majority of the time. (Hell, it would only take me a few days to produce a lethal dose of cyanide) Those who not serious, but merely looking for help will usually fail (help me, I swallowed half a bottom of aspirin [8)] ) and wind up in a psychiatric ward for a short duration. Thus this debate about suicide is largely an intellectual exercise in ethics, but not relevant to what usually happens in the real world.

Euthanasia is a more clear cut issue, IMO, and should be legal in all civilized countries. Holland is light years ahead of the US in this regard.

[Aegist]

Yeah, good points all round techno.

Interesting how the northern European nations tend to keep being much more advanced with this sort of stuff than anywhere else. Maybe thats a place worth considering moving to....

[Shannon Vyff]

Well I agree with Oregon's take on having to have a diagnosis of imminent fatality within 6 months, due to a disease. Some Dr's were under fire, when I lived there 2 years ago, for being too 'lax'.

I think parameters of people being given the right after say a certain age, as well could work. People after a certain adult age, should have the choice. Of course deciding on an age would be difficult.

On moving to Europe, sure I've always been tempted, and have had the means to if I wanted--but we do need to work to make America better, too

[Infernity]

I am sure they won't punish anyone who commits a suicide, successfully.... They might only if you fail, then it's like a lesson- don't fail again lol.

It's any other crime, everything is allowed if nobody knows ^^'

It's silly to have this illegal though. It will change though when it is common to live limitlessly.

-Infernity

[Aegist]

--but we do need to work to make America better, too

I don't [tung]

I am sure they won't punish anyone who commits a suicide, successfully.... They might only if you fail, then it's like a lesson- don't fail again lol.

They could. That would suck: If you commit suicide, we will fine you (and hence your family) $10,000. That'd be really evil.

[Zarrka]

I did recently attend a public forum on 'End of Life Issues' , although it was dominated by funeral homes, hospices and cemeteries, I was heartened to see one activist passing out literature about 'Death With Dignity'.

wait wait wait....

Texas... the state even Australians knows are absolutly needle happy when it comes to the death penelty.. tell you not to kill yourself? how? At least here in Oz we are not allowed to kill anything and have the right not to be killed by anyone... its accross the board.. but to have the death penelty and then *illegalise* suicide, assisted or otherwise seems.. bizzare.

[fast turtle]

Suicide should be a psychiatrically mediated option for those who don't like living very much. From our own perspectives, it's impossible to tell how much pain someone has to go through being alive, and I think that some people should have the right to off themselves if they consider things too difficult, and if a mental health professional considers that to be the case, too.

Our society needs to look at things realistically, and with empathy. Everyone is going to die at some point, and I think that if someone wants to decide when to do it, it should be in their power. Personally, if I ever developed a neurological disorder that is 98%+ terminal, I plan to off myself before I become too much of a burden on those around me who love me so much and would be devastated if they saw me so debilitated that I couldn't even remember who they were.

That doesn't mean you should give up on living prematurely, but there are 6.5+ billion people to pick up where ever you left off in life, and try to improve things for the future.

[Ghostrider]

...but to have the death penelty and then *illegalise* suicide, assisted or otherwise seems.. bizzare.

Yeah, that's what strikes me as so strange. As I mentioned earlier, I am not advocating suicide and I believe it is a pretty poor choice given that humans today seem to have a reasonable amount of control over their lives...well, this opens up another thread...

Anyway, given how pro-death society is as a whole - war, death penalty, etc., it would at least be better to take a consistent position. It's really the consistency issue which bugs me more than the issue of suicide itself.

That doesn't mean you should give up on living prematurely, but there are 6.5+ billion people to pick up where ever you left off in life, and try to improve things for the future.

Not really, still waiting for the next Einstein to step up to the plate.

[Neurosail]

if it wasn't for the potential cryonics issue I wouldn't care whether or not suicide was illegal.

There are few situations where a person who is determined to die wouldn't be able to follow through with it in some way.

With the cryonics issue, however, it becomes a far more personal matter.  There are many situations I can envision where I have hours or days left to live, and by the time I expire naturally my brain could be extremely damaged and it would be more advantageous to simply skip the pain and irreparable brain damage in favor of the admittedly small, but greater probability that my life could be saved by undergoing the procedure a few days or hours earlier under more controlled conditions.

Euthanasia should be legal for cryopreservation in cases of Alzheimer's like this.

I remember last summer when I visited my uncle and he has Alzheimer's. He was very confused unable to remember anything that was said to him even just 5 minutes ago, but he kept telling stories of his youth and how he worked on most of the dams in the TVA system. His memory was very clear about the past, but then he ask me where I worked every 5 minutes after I told him. He kept asking the same questions over and over again because he didn't remember asking it nor my answers. I had to be very patient with him and explained my answers repeatably.

If I get Alzheimer's I want to go somewhere and get euthanized and cryopreservation as soon as I can!

Suicide and/ or suicide pacts should remain illegal. Committing suicide for any reason other than medical, not only kills the person but also kills the family and friends as well.
It is murder of the heart of all the ones the person leaves behind. Especially teenage suicide.

Edited by Neurosail, 10 March 2007 - 09:01 AM.

[digitalhammer]

Casting all religious and ethical considerations aside, from a purely economical perspective, the outlawing of suicide makes sense. I will use the middle class US economy as the basis of my example. It costs an average of $6490USD per year to raise 0-2 children on average middle class family income. Assuming the offspring become financially independent by age 22, it costs $142780 to raise a child to that age. At this point, it would be assumed that they would start "contributing to society", ideally in beneficial ways, such as bringing new ideas to business, science, etc... that could potentially strengthen their economy and improve the world around them. Excluding extremely debilitated people and retired seniors, an able-bodied person who commits suicide generally forgoes future opportunities to make these contributions. As countries with a disproportionate ratio of retired seniors to births implement population growth incentives (such as favorable tax policies for starting families in present day Germany and Japan), one could conclude the prospect of youth growing up to make said contributions to their economy and society is valued.

Ergo, for every able-bodied person who dies prematurely, it costs at least $140000 to the US economy to raise a child to adulthood where they have the opportunity to make said contributions. Hence, if a few hundred thousand able bodied people, including corporate executives, political leaders, and scientists killed themselves, the implications would be measurably significant. There would be a scramble to find replacements and relevant productivity within their applicable fields would drop. Assuming immigration rate of skilled workers (or would-be replacements) is extremely low (as in the case of Germany until recently) and assuming birth rates increase over time to compensate for the die-off, it would still cost millions of dollars and at least two decades to raise and train potential replacements and bring economic productivity back to speed. Since "saving" a depressed, able-bodied person from suicide costs less than raising a person who may or may not replace their role, outlawing suicide is one way to reduce such headaches and keep the economic engine running as smooth as possible.

Whew, that's my 2 pence.

[bacopa]

I believe suicde should be legal for those with neurodegenerative disorders or termal illness. If I couldn't think at all I don't see the point of living.

However often people are not in the right state of mind when contemplating suicide. Many people feel suicidal after stupid things like breaking up with ones boy or girl friend. this is not a good reason to take one's life.

There have been a few times in my life where I simply did not want to go on...but I had a perfectly fine brain and was healthy in general. Now that I have some braindamage I want to live that much more...so I think most people contemplating suicide simply have to see how fortunate they are that at least they have a good brain and healthy bodies..

Euthnasia makes sense to me for people who are horribly suffering. Jack Kevorkian is ok in my book [thumb]

[Omnido]

If one is clever or ingenious, it is possible to bypass litigation with regard to suicide.
One just has to be in the right place at the right time with the right people.

[Grail]

Is it "assisted" if someone who knows you are doing it doesn't try to stop you? I mean...that's more unassisted than assisted, because they simply do nothing.

[da vinci]

The psychaitrist told me, a western person wants to kill him/herself is mentally disturbed but an oriental person does this is their choice. He is a well ignorant! [airquote]