56 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

I'll be talking with Ben Best tonight, and will get more details to you Wililam--I'm assuming at this point that as soon as the full CI funds are raised he'll be taking over working with you--to make sure your POA is in order, transportation, suspension etc.

Your response can be found at the below link.
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=296162

[thefirstimmortal]

I'd say the only silver lining in this affair, is that now William I'm relieved for the first time that you will be preserved.

Your response can be found at the below link.
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=296168

[niner]

What a sad tale, that it should end like this for someone so committed. There were a lot of complications here, but the take-home messages are: 1) You don't just need life insurance, you need long term care insurance. 2) You need to have your family behind you, or else have legal representation. 3) If you develop AD or other brain disorders, it may be important to arrange for cryopreservation prior to the destruction of your mind. As a practical matter, this would involve suicide in the eyes of the law, at least in most states, so it could be troublesome. However, I don't believe anyone has ever been prosecuted for a successful suicide attempt. Funny the hoops society makes you jump through in order to not die.

[thefirstimmortal]

What a sad tale, that it should end like this for someone so committed. There were a lot of complications here, but the take-home messages are: 2) You need to have your family behind you, or else have legal representation.

I have responded to this in the following post.
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=296181

[thefirstimmortal]

However, I don't believe anyone has ever been prosecuted for a successful suicide attempt. Funny the hoops society makes you jump through in order to not die.

I have responded to this in the following post.
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&...st&p=296184

[Shannon Vyff]

Marce promised Paul Genteman dinner if they were both revived someday, I'll have to take that up. http://www.cryocare....4.html#GENTEMAN

[Shannon Vyff]

Mike Darwin had this to say:

"The first cohort of cryonicists; people who wanted to be cryopreserved and made reasonable efforts to do so, has now largely passed, and within a decade there will be few left living. Possible survivors from that population, defined as those who were cryopreserved under any conditions, currently constitute less than 10% of that population by my most conservative evaluation; and no more than 30% by my most liberal evaluation. [‘Suspension Membership’ rosters from various cryonics organizations from the late 1960s through the mid-1970s provide cohorts of people who have now experienced almost complete termination of their first life cycle. Of cryonicists who were 45 years old (or older) in 1969, less than 1% are still alive. If more rigorous criteria are used to define what constitutes a ‘cryonicist,’ such as some degree of activism, or an arbitrary number of years of involvement or membership, then, depending upon the degree of rigor added to the definition, ‘survivorship’ might be stretched to reach the 20-30% mark.]"

Good things to keep in mind. Steve Bridges said it is sort of like being in triage, you can't keep them all alive. Mike Darwin though said with cryonicists --you are friends for many many years, sharing dinners and such--its different.

The Venturists are planning on creating POA documents and relative affidavits for cryonicists to use in the future. One benefit is that the Venturists do not benefit financially in anyway from helping with a suspension. There will be announcements after new paperwork is done, but it will likely be many months.

Many of us now who are the "younger generation" of cryonicists-- need to learn from those who preceded so we can keep from losing so many.

[Heliotrope]

Marce promised Paul Genteman dinner if they were both revived someday, I'll have to take that up. http://www.cryocare....4.html#GENTEMAN

So was Marce in cryo in the end or not? I suppose several days of no cryo would turn some organs to mush. And add the AD problem, dementia/wasting of things.

She finally in cryo? yes or no, or what's the chance of her getting back. if cremated or buried, 0%. if save what remains, maybe something like 0.001%

[Shannon Vyff]

Marce was cremated (Paul is at Alcor).

Here is the quote from Steve I was referencing:

“But being involved in cryonics is like being an emergency room physician. Emergencies come in the door every day. You try to save every one; but some conditions are beyond your abilities to reverse. The next person on the table in front of you might be your parent or best friend or your own child. You want to grieve every failure; but you cannot. Because tomorrow the next emergency comes in and you have to try to save *that* person. All you can do is remember what you were probably told in medical school (and what I was told in my EMT course many years ago): you can't save everyone; but if you are not there when someone needs you, then they ALL die.”

[thefirstimmortal]

Marce promised Paul Genteman dinner if they were both revived someday, I'll have to take that up. http://www.cryocare....4.html#GENTEMAN

So was Marce in cryo in the end or not? I suppose several days of no cryo would turn some organs to mush. And add the AD problem, dementia/wasting of things.

She finally in cryo? yes or no, or what's the chance of her getting back. if cremated or buried, 0%. if save what remains, maybe something like 0.001%

No.

[Heliotrope]

Marce promised Paul Genteman dinner if they were both revived someday, I'll have to take that up. http://www.cryocare....4.html#GENTEMAN

So was Marce in cryo in the end or not? I suppose several days of no cryo would turn some organs to mush. And add the AD problem, dementia/wasting of things.

She finally in cryo? yes or no, or what's the chance of her getting back. if cremated or buried, 0%. if save what remains, maybe something like 0.001%

No.

too sad though very apparent. just didn't want to believe some people so dedicated to these things will be gone forever. first chris heward, then marce

so it looks final that you'll have to take plan B? last bit of money, and everything else arranged? there's a chance we'll all meet sometime in future, could be many yrs

[advancedatheist]

Considering my role in helping to raise money for Marce's suspension, it really pisses me off when critics who haven't bothered to study the facts call cryonics a "scam" ("a fraudulent business scheme; a swindle"). From their warped perspective, Marce saved a pile of money by getting cremated instead of cryopreserved.

[Shannon Vyff]

She wouldn't have saved money, perhaps her family--but then could not she be held as selfish for giving them any money when there are so many non-profits one should in good conscience donate to as they help with extreme inequality and can save lives for mere dollars. Thanks for your work at that forum AdvancedAtheist, I considered jumping in myself-but you really were covering the points well. But the cryonics organizations use their money to help with research that benefits organ transplant patients now, in addition to covering their operating expenses. There are no people, Marce included--who made money off of cryonics. She was president of a cryonics organization, she was on a cryonics organization board--and in the end she didn't have money for cryonics. When the money was raised for her, out of love for all she has done and of her--her family simply decided against giving her the chance.

I need to say again, Chris Heward was never a cryonicist--he had friends who were and they tried to get him to sign, he always felt it wouldn't work. Many of us of course feel that it may not work, but I'm not ruling it out entirely thus I'm a signed member

[niner]

Mike Darwin had this to say:

Of cryonicists who were 45 years old (or older) in 1969, less than 1% are still alive.

Wow. The youngest of them would be 85 this year, which doesn't seem all that old. This makes me wonder if cryonicists (on average) don't take as good care of themselves as they might if they didn't have a "backup plan".

[thefirstimmortal]

too sad though very apparent. just didn't want to believe some people so dedicated to these things will be gone forever. first chris heward, then marce

so it looks final that you'll have to take plan B? last bit of money, and everything else arranged? there's a chance we'll all meet sometime in future, could be many yrs

I could not tell, was this for me or Shannon?

[advancedatheist]

She wouldn't have saved money, perhaps her family--but then could not she be held as selfish for giving them any money when there are so many non-profits one should in good conscience donate to as they help with extreme inequality and can save lives for mere dollars.

Altruism in practice often means surrendering to the bullying and mind games of other selfish people who want what you have, or who think they know better what to do with it than you do. Cryonicists should learn early on not to fall into this trap.

[Shannon Vyff]

I was hoping that anyone that donated to Marce has considered transferring their donation to William's fund. If there is extra the amount will go to the next Venturist Compassionate Care Fund. If you have cryonicist friends, it wouldn't hurt to ask them if they donated to Marce .

[Putz]

I'm a little concerned that if she had moderately advanced Alzheimer's in 2001 then she may have been beyond saving long before her heart stopped beating. Though I obviously don't know nearly enough about the specifics of her condition to make a definitive judgment in that regard.

The perfect cryonics patient is a healthy ten year old who can walk into the lab and lie down on the table before the procedure. The rest of us have to take our chances, especially because almost everyone who lives long enough develops circulatory problems which interfere with getting a good perfusion of cryoprotectants through the brain.

I'm just thinking theoretically, optimally, shouldn't the body be fully grown but not aging yet, around 21-25 years old, before it is cryopreserved? I know future technology would probably allow for a normal life for a 10 year old but I'm speculating on the problems associated with death and stopping body and brain growth suddenly at 10 yrs old.

[advancedatheist]

The perfect cryonics patient is a healthy ten year old who can walk into the lab and lie down on the table before the procedure. The rest of us have to take our chances, especially because almost everyone who lives long enough develops circulatory problems which interfere with getting a good perfusion of cryoprotectants through the brain.

I'm just thinking theoretically, optimally, shouldn't the body be fully grown but not aging yet, around 21-25 years old, before it is cryopreserved? I know future technology would probably allow for a normal life for a 10 year old but I'm speculating on the problems associated with death and stopping body and brain growth suddenly at 10 yrs old.

According to the actuarial tables, the probability of death reaches its lowest figure for ten year olds. I've read the claim that if you could stabilize a child's physiology at that age, barring a misadventure he or she could theoretically live for several centuries in good health, kind of like the Lost Boys in the Peter Pan stories who never enter puberty.

[davidd]

So that we may learn from this, what could she have done differently to avoid having this happen? Is there some way to legally protect the money set aside for cryonics such that it isn't counted as an asset as it pertains to Medicare?

Is there some way to legally prevent relatives from going against your wishes? I mean, can't you designate a power of attorney to a non-family member? Or designate it to a family member with strict, legal enforcement that they can't reverse the decision to be cryopreserved?

David

[thefirstimmortal]

So that we may learn from this, what could she have done differently to avoid having this happen? Is there some way to legally protect the money set aside for cryonics such that it isn't counted as an asset as it pertains to Medicare?

Yes, that has been outlined in Cryonet. Apperently Alcor has a way that this is done.

Is there some way to legally prevent relatives from going against your wishes? I mean, can't you designate a power of attorney to a non-family member? Or designate it to a family member with strict, legal enforcement that they can't reverse the decision to be cryopreserved?

David

That may vary from State to State. Something that I will be checking into if I have the time.

[thefirstimmortal]

So that we may learn from this, what could she have done differently to avoid having this happen? Is there some way to legally protect the money set aside for cryonics such that it isn't counted as an asset as it pertains to Medicare?
David

Found it Dave

X-Message-Number: 31010
From: "Robert Newport" <theholodoc@gmail.com>
Subject: insurance funding re message #31007
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:54:59 -0700

Hi Everyone: Stodolsky's warning is rendered moot by the very simple
strategy of assigning ownership of the policy to the cryonic's organization.
It is Alcor's policy to seek an ownership position, however they do not
always require this. Once the policy is no longer "owned " by the member, it
is not available, nor is any of its cash value, for end of life expenses.
Dr. Robert

[thefirstimmortal]

So that we may learn from this, what could she have done differently to avoid having this happen? Is there some way to legally protect the money set aside for cryonics such that it isn't counted as an asset as it pertains to Medicare?
David

Once the policy is no longer "owned " by the member, it
is not available, nor is any of its cash value, for end of life expenses.
Dr. Robert[/i]

Once it is no longer "owned " by the member, it also isn't available to the government and cannot be counted as an asset that can be used against the individual.

[davidd]

So that we may learn from this, what could she have done differently to avoid having this happen? Is there some way to legally protect the money set aside for cryonics such that it isn't counted as an asset as it pertains to Medicare?
David

Once the policy is no longer "owned " by the member, it
is not available, nor is any of its cash value, for end of life expenses.
Dr. Robert[/i]

Once it is no longer "owned " by the member, it also isn't available to the government and cannot be counted as an asset that can be used against the individual.

In this particular case, didn't someone state that this was done, yet the member was able to cash it in?

What is to prevent me, for instance, from suffering dementia and cashing in my own policy?

David

[thefirstimmortal]

In this particular case, didn't someone state that this was done, yet the member was able to cash it in?

What is to prevent me, for instance, from suffering dementia and cashing in my own policy?

David

I don't think that was the case, I believe they had a policy but I don't think Alcore held it. I could be wrong about that though. Shannon should know the details of that, she claimed that she was involved in trying to save Marce, I would think that would be information that she would have been on top of. You can ask her, I'm only dimly aware of the specifics surrounding failure of Marce Johnsons suspension.

[KeliGellar]

Hi Shannon,

I was a friend of William O'Rights and just heard of his passing. This site was so important to him and I'm sure his obituary must be posted. Could you point me to it?

Thank you.

Keli

[forever freedom]

Hi Shannon,

I was a friend of William O'Rights and just heard of his passing. This site was so important to him and I'm sure his obituary must be posted. Could you point me to it?

Thank you.

Keli

http://www.cryonics....ports/CI93.html