CHAT ARCHIVE:
<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins (thanks for joining)
<ravi> k
<BJKlein> Topic: Is there a growing acceptance of anti-aging by society in general and the media specifically?
<BJKlein> first we'll do a quick vote...
<BJKlein> i'd say yes
<Guest> yes yes
<Utnapishtim> If you are talking about feasibility I'd say a marginal yes
<ravi> going in the right direction...but not ready to say yes
<BJKlein> because of ravi's artilce... babyboomers are pushing this as they are not worried as much about being seen as selfish as our the older generations
<localroger> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "acceptance of anti-aging." I'd say if you mean fear of aging and acceptance of anything that promises to slow it, yes.
<simdizzy> yes
<Utnapishtim> if you are talking about the ethical issue I'd have to say that I don't think this debate has even started
<Nader> I'd say yeah too, but "the media" is a bit shallow.
<Utnapishtim> I really see the need for two entirely different issues to be discussed here
<Utnapishtim> Ethics and feasibility
<BJKlein> localroger. i'm refering to the possibility that editors are seeing anti-aging as something that will sell more magazines, etc.
<Utnapishtim> Do the media take claims of radical life extension in the medium term future more seriously? Yes I'd have to say they do allthough it is still pretty fringe
<Utnapishtim> Is this something Scientific American will go near? No
<localroger> Well, yes then. The Boomers in general have no shame about wanting it all.
<BJKlein> why?
<Utnapishtim> so there is still aw ways to go as far as the respectability of the issue is concerned
<BJKlein> chestnut is here!! I love my chestnut
<Utnapishtim> awww How cute
<Utnapishtim> Hey susan
<Utnapishtim> Hey Hugh
<Mr> I really wonder if boomers will suddenly go hogwild for extreme life extension or if they will engage spiritual paths and go into the night gently.
<Hugh_Bristic> Yo Utna!\
<Utnapishtim> Mt Excellent question
<localroger> I think the boomers burned out their spirituality circuits in the New Age binge of the 80's.
<chestnut> Hello :o) (chestnut turns a bit red...)
<BJKlein> Mr, is there examples in the past of whole groups going 'hogwild' over an idea like anti-aging?
<Utnapishtim> local: I see the boomers retuirning to the shallow paperback buddhism of their teen years for the most part
<Hugh_Bristic> xtianity
<BJKlein> Hugh_Bristic, so you think more will turn to religion?
<Utnapishtim> I think that new age mysticism is in for a big boost. General wooly 'feelgood' spirituality that requires a minimum of sacrifice will be among the most popular options puesued by boomers in the spiritual marketplace
<Hugh_Bristic> Seems like tibetan and zen are most appealing to the shallow types.
<localroger> Utnapishtim, I hang around with a lot of NA types and I have noticed that people don't tend to return to alternative religions once they've drifted away. There is a solid core, but they would've been there anyway. I think the Boomers will demand their anti-aging pills and curse the gov't when it doesn't come through.
<Hugh_Bristic> BJ: I was just citing it as an example of groupd going hog wild.
<Utnapishtim> Hugh: The shallow types that wish desperately to project depth
<Hugh_Bristic> yep
<Mind> NA types??
<BJKlein> New Age
<localroger> Also, I think the Boomers are more likely to turn to Wicca than Buddhism. NA types = New Age.
<ravi> have religious groups embraced the term anti aging?
<localroger> Most are allergic to it on general principles.
<Hugh_Bristic> local roger: yeah, buddhism is so 70's
<BJKlein> some have ravi... some religious leaders have promoted physical immortality as a good thing
<Mind> According to Leon Kass...Orthodox Jews are very much into anti-aging
<localroger> BJKlein... examples?
<BJKlein> but for the most part, i'd suspect most religious leaders are much more conservative
<Utnapishtim> The boomers will continue to foolishly rave about the Beatles Sandy Koufax and various other overrated icons of their youth
<BJKlein> i have an article i'd need to dig up
<Mind> Well said Utna...I have noticed those trends amongst boomers
<Mind> Still worshipping their old idols
<BJKlein> but, in principle, partly because of the second coming idea.. trying to live on earth forever is not really a bad thing in their eyes
<Utnapishtim> Bruce: I think you are makign a mistake here
<Hugh_Bristic> I think the boomer have grown conservative in their dodage, myself.
<localroger> From Christianity to Wicca, most religions are about the cycles of life and death which are considered natural. Judaisim is uniquely positioned to embrace anti-aging because there is no implicit afterlife and because of the great alleged ages of early humans.
<Utnapishtim> I don't think the average guy feels the need for coherenrence and consistency in their world view that you do
<BJKlein> i can also point you to some very interesting ImmInst threads from xtians who wish to live forever
<Utnapishtim> to the same extent that you do I meant
<Mind> Boomers will demand aging remedies eventually
<Mr> I found interesting in the article the idea of "theme deaths" instead of the usual "theme birthday party" people usually have.
<BJKlein> Mr article?
<localroger> Theme Deaths. Hmmm. I seem to remember reading, oh forkit never mind.
<Mr> from the article
<Hugh_Bristic> I think boomers are as likely to embrace supernaturals uccur as their parents and thus reject anti-aging stuff unless it is obviously coming very soon.
<Utnapishtim> The Aztecs really went in for theme deaths....
<Mr> ouch
<Hugh_Bristic> succor
<Mr> I always felt the Aztecs got what they deserved
<Mr> at least I feel that for the royalty and priesthood
<Mind> People over 60 or 70 do not have a lot of hope at this point for revolutionary treatments to prolong a helathy life...but I think anyone younger will certainly entertain the idea
<Utnapishtim> It was undoubtedly a thoroughly wicked and evil civilisation
<BJKlein> NEW QUESTION: Is talking about physical immortality damaging to anti-aging research?
<Hugh_Bristic> Dunno, from what I've read recently the Aztecs were less stratified than their European contempoaraies.
<localroger> I'm 39 and I have to admit I'm not all that optimistic.
<Mr> but Utnap, you should not "judge" them through your eurocentric western perspective...
<Mr> LOL
<Utnapishtim> Mind: I wonder what percetage of the public have at least played with the idea that radical life extension will come int heir life times
<localroger> My estimate: 0.01%
<Utnapishtim> Mr: lol
<ravi> well many people want to focus on extending the healthy human life span
<Mind> I have see a lot of talk about anti-aging and singularity type stuff on cable and the internet lately...but not on local or national TV networks
<BJKlein> on the whole.. i think it's a good thing.. talking about living forever needs to be more out in the open.. most anti-aging researchers can't now
<Mr> What I am waiting for...
<Mind> Utna...between 2.3 and 7.87 percent of the people
<localroger> Well before we get to "forever" we have to realistically achieve "more than 100 years on a regular basis."
<Mr> is a Bill Gates or Larry Ellison to hit around sixty or seventy and suddenly feel their mortality....
<ravi> well immortality is a long term goal
<Utnapishtim> local: You forsee a 1 in a 1000 chace of substantial lifespan increases during the next 40 years or so?
<Lazlo> I am back for a minute and IMO opinion the answer to the last question is generally no but depending on context can turn off some to the anti-agathic research but they were probably against it to begin with
<Hugh_Bristic> immortality is a bad word. longevity is better.
<ravi> i agree with localroger
<Mr> "multi-billion dollar anti-aging project here we come!!"
<yesterday> Isnt it better to spread the logevity meme BEFORE we start trying to spread the immortality meme?
<Mind> they go hand in hanfd
<Utnapishtim> Mind: I think your estimate is probably about right
<Lazlo> I agree w/ Yesterday
<yesterday> yes but the former gels better
<Hugh_Bristic> immortality=kook
<super8> immortality is not a bad word i guess
<Mind> I am a kook then
<BJKlein> Hugh_Bristic.. i think that's part of our mission at ImmInst to make Immortality *not* a bad word
<localroger> Utnapishtim: I think the posts got crossed, I see one in 1,000 people having thought about it seriously. But I'd give about the same percentage for it happening in my lifetime.
<Utnapishtim> when applied to the USA
<Hugh_Bristic> longevity=reasonable
<Lazlo> imoortality evokes competition w/ God
<super8> it is my ultimate and dream word
<Lazlo> the Babylon complex
<Utnapishtim> Hugh: I totally agree with you!
<BJKlein> talking about longevity always evokes the question of *how* long?
<Utnapishtim> You were the guy who responded to my 'why immortality is nonsense thread right?"
<Hugh_Bristic> BJ: I thought it was about promoting as longa life as possible.
<localroger> Immortality opens a lot of cans of worms. I for one would love to live long enough to be bothered by the paradoxes I wrote about in my novel.
<super8> i wish for forever
<BJKlein> and saying immortality out front trumps the question, is more open and clear
<Lazlo> like a discussionon infinity but the journey always begins with the first step
<Utnapishtim> Thank you for clearing up Kissingers questions. You did so better than I may have been able to do myself
<Hugh_Bristic> We won't win converts to that idea, by using terms people think are crazy.
<yesterday> BJ to which you might reply : "indefinitely"
<Mind> My great aunt Alice is 80 something and just got her hip replaced...she is doing everything in her power to remain an independent person. She wants to extend her life as much as possible.
<BJKlein> still a copout in my opinion.. but i understand the media relation bit
<Utnapishtim> I find 'remaining alive for the forseeable future' entirely satisfying
<Mind> me too
<Hugh_Bristic> Don't get me wrong. I'd love to live forever, but one thing at a time.
<Lazlo> It is not a cop-out to maintain your comunicaton as opposed to declaring your self beyond caring about how we are perceived
<Utnapishtim> given that I consider forseeable to be pretty damn long
<BJKlein> at it's core.. to die in my mind is total oblivion.. and thus is the inherent reason why immortality is key
<Lazlo> I agree w/ the pragmatists here, language and sttitudes change w/ time and we are trying to get time on our side
<Utnapishtim> I don't consider death invalidating having lived which is where we differ. I agree that If I felt that way It might put a different spin on things
<Lazlo> attitudes*
<Hugh_Bristic> The main thing I'm concerned about is that immediate efforts at life extension prove fruitfull so that I can live the extra 50-100 years in which more indefinate life extension becomes a reality.
<Utnapishtim> but even if I bought into that...
<Utnapishtim> one step at a time you know?
<Mind> Amongst this group I don't mind being referred to as an immortalist...when I talk to other people I usually start off the discussion with "how about living to 150 or 180"
<Lazlo> successful longevity will drastically alter public opinion
<Utnapishtim> Mind: So do I
<localroger> Lazio, successful longevity will drastically alter policy. Kim Stanley Robinson handled this very well in the Mars trilogy.
<Lazlo> I get a little more enthusiastic to test the waters and talk about our children living for centuries
<Utnapishtim> local: A wonderful set of books
<Mind> What examples of the meme spreading have all of you noticed
<Lazlo> I agree Local, fine books too
<Mind> I know Kurweil gets around...He has been on TechTV and the CBC
<Mind> Kurzweil that is
<Utnapishtim> three pretty major books dealing with this topic all coming out in the last year or so
<ravi> as the baby boomers age do u guies beleive there will be a more acceptance of anti aging then there is now
<Utnapishtim> Fukuyama Stock and McKibben
<Hugh_Bristic> i don't trust kurzweil
<Lazlo> CNN Reuters and AP are picking it up as a theme, recent articles in Time Magazine too
<BJKlein> Mind, a great example is Simon Smith's article: Reuters quoted Montclair State University professor Michael Zey as saying that he thinks we are "knocking at the door of immortality."
<Utnapishtim> Fukuyama is a pretty 'respectable' writer who would not risk his reputation by tackling topics perceived as overyl speculative or frivolous
<Mind> My local TV station does health reports all the time, but the notion of radical life extension has not been presented yet
<BJKlein> more people are becoming comfortable with using the term 'immortality'
<Hugh_Bristic> he is writing a book with a quack doctor, which makes me question his judgement.
<yesterday> Yes the meme tends to spread easier to people who are younger, rather than the older people who seem to have already accepted the inevitablitiy of their death somehow and come to terms with it: telling those people they might live forever is much harder when they've spend 30+ years believing otherwise
<BJKlein> although most really mean 'long life' not real 'immortality' if you ask them
<ravi> long liife meaning how long? 150, 200
<Lazlo> numerous conferences and think tanks are tackling the issues as well, especially an esoteric aspect associated w/ retirement and Social Security
<localroger> Well kids, you also have to consider the effects of aging. Things fall apart, the center does not hold, your body betrays you in numerous ways and some days the thought of dying doesn't seem all that bad compared to slogging onward.
<Utnapishtim> Honestly I think that there is absolutely no purpose in addressing anything other than stayong alive for the next century or so right now
<BJKlein> ravi exactly.. >120 but not infinity
<Hugh_Bristic> BJ: Do you see a point ot living an extra 50 years if after that you die?
<BJKlein> no
<BJKlein> immortality or bust
<Hugh_Bristic> so its all pointless if you die?
<Lazlo> a lot will change in that 50 years
<localroger> Hugh: Show me the paperwork, I promise I will not bother to read the fine print before signing.
<Hugh_Bristic> lol
<BJKlein> there's a big difference between living a really long time and immortality
<Mind> I notice the effects of aging localroger...that is why I am part of this group...I hate the aging process and I am only 32
<Hugh_Bristic> yes, but living a long time is better than living a short time, no?
<super8> i agree with lazlo, lot of things may change in 50 yrs
<Mind> I don't use the term "hate" lightly either
<localroger> Mind: I'm 39, just a little "ahead" of you.
<Lazlo> Yes Bruce but the issues can be discussed in forum not as apublic platform attempting to garner support from people that treat that meme as antithetical to their understanding
<ravi> BJ: don't u think it should be a prioity to extend the healthy human life span instead of immortality for now
<simdizzy> living for eternity as you say BJ, would require something infinite creativity to sustain life in a universe of increasing entropy -its a lot to ask
<localroger> I notice things really start falling apart in your late 20's, and it only gets worse from there.
<Utnapishtim> Mind:On an utterly unrelated note I drafted Brett Favre and Donald Driver onto my fantasy team today. Your packers better perform!
<Lazlo> wheew slow down I think we are bombarding him
)
<localroger> Wow, DDDOS on IRC. Kewl.
<Hugh_Bristic> has anybody noticed that you start smelling worse as you get older? Pretty depressing, I think--such an obvious sign of decay.
<simdizzy> i hadnt noticed that
<Hugh_Bristic> okay, I'm a kook.
<localroger> Hugh, that might be treatable.
<Lazlo> lack of personal care in some and cumulative poison from the diet HUgh, alcahol excess produces acetone in sweat
<BJKlein> I consider myself at the edge on this issue of 'immortality' and I fully expect to receive a few strange looks..
<Lazlo> changes in diet and exercise along w/a few otehr factors reverse that at any age
<Utnapishtim> Hugh: How old are you if you don't mind me asking?
<BJKlein> but, i hope that in 100yrs it will become more clear.. that a live lived good and then dead is no better than having never lived at all
<Hugh_Bristic> But don't you remember that when you were a kid you could go a week without bathing and you wouldn't really stink?
<Hugh_Bristic> 33
<BJKlein> that a *life*
<Lazlo> But pick where you want to engage that battle Bruce, it doesn't have to be all or nothing
<simdizzy> BJ, maybe never living at all is a good thing
<localroger> Well BJKlein, I have to disagree with you there. As would probably most of the 100 billion humans who have preceeded us, and died.
<Hugh_Bristic> Can't go a day without it now.
<BJKlein> this is not an area where i can compromise my core belief
<BJKlein> entertaining the possiblity of death is not an option
<Lazlo> WHy is it a compromise to maintain both arguments?
<Utnapishtim> BJ: Why do you feel the need to address the issue of infinity now?
<Lazlo> Carpe diem
<BJKlein> as a human, i can't lie well
<Lazlo> no lies just differt references
<simdizzy> I dont worry about death, i have an unreasonable amount of faith in QTI
<localroger> It's like someone who has yet to ford his first river worrying about crossing the ocean.
<Lazlo> when you want to discuss core ethics pursue the full goal but in pragmatic political discussion start w/ rationally attainable goals
<MrDebt> BTW, Ellison is ALREADY big sponsor of anti-aging reasearch. re: [20:15] <Mr> is a Bill Gates or Larry Ellison to hit around sixty or seventy and suddenly feel their mortality....
<BJKlein> because, i think the sooner we realize why immortality is important the sooner we'll see success in anti-aging and the next step toward posthuman
<Hugh_Bristic> BJ: One of Prometheus' gifts was allowing man to accept his own mortality. Guess you must have been left off the list. Were you naughty?
<simdizzy> Prometheus was a rebel anyway
<localroger> BJK it's the other way around. When you show people that real life extension is possible, it will become possible for them to imagine making it indefinite.
<BJKlein> Lazlo, i've seen many anti-aging proponents (Stock is a good example) be shot down with the immortality question.. they answer with apologizism
<Lazlo> but you are making it a quasi religious passion if all you will argue for is an extreme instead of logically incremental means. Hugh why should he accept his or our mortality?
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I actually think that your attitude on this issue is on the outer edge of the bellcurve
<BJKlein> localroger, that's not what i want my job to be.. others will do that much better
<Mind> My question is when will Dan Rather come knoncking on BJ's door for an interview?
<Lazlo> BTW, Bruce this is Laz(arus) Lo(ng) in case any of don't already recognize my rhetoric
<Utnapishtim> I think immortality is a philosophical cul de sac its better not to go near if we want to remain alive
<BJKlein> Lazlo i recognized ya
<localroger> BJK, that's what we are here for.
<Hugh_Bristic> Laz:He should struggle against it with hope, but also with a realistic appraisal of the possibility that he will die.
<localroger> Hugh: Couldn't have said it better myself.
<Lazlo> HUgh these are separate issues, each of us should struggle against death till we cahnge our mind for whatever reason, but arguing our case w/ the general public is another matter
<BJKlein> guys.. if you entertain the possibility of death.. do you then think there's an afterlife?
<Hugh_Bristic> Llaz: true
<localroger> No, not really. We entertain the possibility that we are fucked.
<Nader> heh
<Lazlo> a second area for discussion and again not relevant despite what some who do believe such maintain
<BJKlein> why not take the affirmative possition then.. not be fucked..and be immortal?
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I think immortality is a meaningless concept
<Hugh_Bristic> no afterlife, juts life or death.
<BJKlein> see, this is where i'm confused
<ravi> no afterlife
<localroger> BJK, I have no intrinsic problem with the idea of immortality despite my little novel. But baby steps. To insist that anything less than immortality is not worthwile is just silly. Longer life increases your chances of living to see even longer life.
<BJKlein> localroger i agree
<ravi> i agree localroger
<Hugh_Bristic> Realistic appraisal of the possibilities is important.
<Lazlo> why are we copying the behavior of those that we debate everyday on this? NOthingpreseted has been exclusive of the other postion, Local ... AGREED
<BJKlein> that's the memetic battle most of want.. i just want to open and upfront with what i really want
<BJKlein> depends on the audience
<localroger> Sometimes you must hide your goals in order to achieve them. Basic poker.
<Mind> Eventually...many people will start to ask the question if we can live to 130 why not 150 or 1000, there is no escaping this thought process
<Lazlo> but why can't you accept a battle front and not treat the first squimishes as if it s the last battle?
<BJKlein> i wouldn't say these things to anyone on the street
<localroger> There are people who oppose us. None of us is the enemy in this regard, but there ARE enemies of this idea out there.
<Utnapishtim> Lets just live one day at a time and rack up as many as we can
<Lazlo> squirmishes but I like squimeshes too
<Hugh_Bristic> If there is a decent cahnce, you should probably devote every waking minute to contributing towards the possibility of acheiving immortality. If not, you need to hedge your bets and try to enjoy what life you have, while working towards extending lifespan ina reasonable way.
<Utnapishtim> Hugh: Agreed
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, that's one way to do it.. but it may not get us to immortality if we don't know why we're living just one day at a time..
<Mind> I have to plan for more than one day into the future Utna. I at least plan my diet and supplements and exercise to live another 20 or 30 and then see where I am at after that
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I have posted a thread on why I do not believe the concept of immortality to be a useful one on the forums
<Utnapishtim> I'd love your response
<Lazlo> I look on this from a more altruistic perspective than my own mortality as I expect my children to be more the beneficiary than myself
<Hugh_Bristic> Meaing is not meaningles if it is bound in time.
<Lazlo> as well as others
<Utnapishtim> Mind: I didn't mean that literally
<BJKlein> from my immortalist perspective.. to fail would negate all the wonderful days
<Mind> ok
<Lazlo> that is not true BJ
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim i will
<Hugh_Bristic> limit, but why negate?
<BJKlein> becuase of the oblivion problem
<BJKlein> do you remember anything before you were born?
<localroger> BJK, until there is immortality each day is its own reward. You do not reap the rewards of living today in some distant recollective future; you reap them in the moment.
<Hugh_Bristic> no
<BJKlein> do you think you'll remember anything after your dead?
<Hugh_Bristic> point?
<Lazlo> nothing takes away from the real achievements, we haven't lost that battle either yet, oblivion to the individual is not the same as obliion to the species that keeps history
<Hugh_Bristic> no
<Hugh_Bristic> but I won't be there to grieve the fact either
<BJKlein> why strive for 'great' days in chance of death ..when it's clear that you can have more great days after you've overcome some serious problems of aging in your current vessel
<Hugh_Bristic> Just a matter of probability estimates.
<Lazlo> Cloning research is seriously tryingto ressurrect a half dozen or so recently extinct species, we ae confrontng death on so many levels at once isn't it better to be consistent and more patient than to try to rush a million years of evolution in a day?
<localroger> Look, I was very nearly killed a month ago by a tree that fell into my house. I'm still picking up the pieces. And it could have, should have been much, much worse. If the tree had fallen a foot to the left and killed me, I don't think my life would have been rendered worthless as a result. Short, yes, but I've had a pretty good run.
<Hugh_Bristic> Pleasant time now sacrificed for future time possible.
<ravi> so bjk u don't think people should be talking in terms of extending the healthy lifespan
<BJKlein> having a 'pretty good run' is not good enough.. sorry to hear about the tree
<BJKlein> ravi, it's a political issue.. thus depends on who and what you want..
<BJKlein> an anti-aging researcher can't say immortality now for lack of funding
<BJKlein> i hope to change that
<chestnut> localroger...I'm glad you are ok and i agree that your life is very meaningful :O)
<ravi> well i want never want to die
<localroger> BJK, barring something like the singularity in my novel, there can always be a tree. It doesn't matter what health care advances are made. Short of rewriting the operating system of the universe death will always remain possible, no matter how unlikely.
<Hugh_Bristic> BJ: Don't want to convince you to compromise. Give it your all brother!
<BJKlein> localroger, which novel is this?
<Hugh_Bristic> I just have to weigh the beneifits and risks for myself.
<localroger> This novel:
http://www.kuro5hin....prime-intellect<BJKlein> Hugh_Bristic thanks
<BJKlein> ahh that's right
<BJKlein> thanks localroger
<ravi> but my question is how do we get to immortality without increasing the healthy human life span first?..could we?
<localroger> And I'm sure as a staunch immortalist you'll be happy to learn I am writing a sequel.
<BJKlein> ravi, it's of course a step process
<localroger> Ravi: We can't. It's the next step and we must approach it realistically.
<Hugh_Bristic> roger: what did you write?
<BJKlein> and staying alive with anti-aging a key first step..
<Lazlo> Being politically realistic about a campaign is not compromise, standingto conviction and doing something assured to fail is
<BJKlein> AI is in my opinion the next step.. then Singularity
<localroger> Hugh: Follow link I gave. Nominally popular free web novel.
<ravi> so why can't we talk in terms of increasing healthy humans life span first instead of immortality?
<ravi> we aren't comprimising here
<Lazlo> if you want the message to be learned then give it time to be digested by others and teh tools for them to work with to comprehend it
<ravi> we are just in the next step
<BJKlein> ravi, that's not my job.. i'll leave that to others
<BJKlein> my job is to be the leading edge i feel
<localroger> Lazio, yes. You don't ram it down their throats with all the horrible long-term paradoxes up front and personal.
<super8> ravi ,there give legal prescription for anti-again medication in canada , i think
<BJKlein> as i see it... there is some reason to push things along..
<BJKlein> aging is the reason..
<Lazlo> having more educatin and few extra years of wisdom under their belts along with meaningful lives fully appreciated would make our case for us
<Lazlo> aging isn't all that bad it alters perspective, I hope to reverse some of it but I do not regret geting older, I resist getting useless and decrepit that is different
<Hugh_Bristic> super8:really? what meds?
<super8> i am not sure about that , i remeber that news vaguely
<super8> and i heard it is less expensive
<Mind> People interested in longevity will eventually ask about immortality...sooner rather than later...we will be here to answer their questions
<Lazlo> I appreciate the different stages of life and would love to alter the equation a bit but agan seize each day and relish it
<Utnapishtim> people with a philosophical bent may ask these questions
<Utnapishtim> But I consider them unasnwerable
<Lazlo> lazlo ---> away
<Mind> All people interested in logevity will eventually ask about immortality
* BJKlein nods
<BJKlein> it shall always beg the question 'so you want to live how long?'
<super8> i agree with mind
<Hugh_Bristic> i think utna just questions what we mean by forever. Maybe. Is that it, Utna?
<BJKlein> how long? and then die? really?
<BJKlein> will you want to really die at 120?
<BJKlein> at 150?
<BJKlein> and why?
<super8> 150 - 200 , because we live that far we can live further more bcos of future anti-againg meds
<super8> i guess
<BJKlein> so this means your just living to live longer?
<BJKlein> there again, how long?
<BJKlein> or, how longest?
<BJKlein> or do you not really allow yourself to know yet?
<Mind> I agre with Utna that immortality/infinity topics are tough to grapple with...even amongst immortalists, but people will still ask about it
<Utnapishtim> why are you beating yourself up over unanswerable questions?
<BJKlein> im human
<super8> i dont know , but personally i feel again if we fell 200 or more we may reach immortality
<BJKlein> but believe me, i'm not beating myself up.. this is fun
<Hugh_Bristic> I thought you were transhuman ;-)
<BJKlein> me looks at the hair on his arms..
<BJKlein> not quite yet hugh
<Hugh_Bristic> not poshuman, but isn't trans just an indication that you are working towards post?
<BJKlein> ahh true...
<BJKlein> but i feel more primate than trans most of the time
<Hugh_Bristic> another terminology thing: anybody think the term transhumanism is ill chosen?
<BJKlein> probably as bad/good as immortality
<Hugh_Bristic> it seems like you think being human is bad.
<Hugh_Bristic> exactly
<Lazlo> Look Bj we, through you are having a very positive effect. Hereis an articel submitted while we have been having this discussion by a member that joined today (officially)
http://www.imminst.o...t=0<BJKlein> but i think it's fine really
<Hugh_Bristic> I'd prefere neohumanism or something like that.
<Lazlo> why so impatient for someone that seeks immortality?
<Hugh_Bristic> I identify with my humanity.
<BJKlein> heh, because 'My People are dying Senator'
<BJKlein> catch the reference?
<Hugh_Bristic> Human means conscious, volitional, nature-changing to me.
<BJKlein> and because i'm young and impulsibe
<BJKlein> impulsive
<Lazlo> and tehy have for eons but we are finally demonstratnig real progress however miiscule it might be in comparison to forevr, but it is progress
<Hugh_Bristic> I like impulsible myself ;-)
<BJKlein> willing to make mistakes because i feel i can bounce back
<Lazlo> like my typing ;-)
<eclecticn> :>
<Lazlo> Perhaps one secret to imortality BJ is to maintain youthful enthusiam and passion while attaniig real maturity
<Lazlo> attaining*
<Mind> What kind of meme-spreading do you all do during your daily life...talk to friends, family, internet forums??
<Mind> I mainly talk to friends about it...I haven't really talked to my family
<Lazlo> your zeal and commitment are commendable but if your exhunerance turned people against your purpose why would you demand such zealotry of yourself?
<eclecticn> Mind - when I was in involuntary commitment a few months back - i shared www.imminst.org in one of the links i passed out all over the hospital
<Mind> cool
<eclecticn> that and these sites too: www.hedweb.com edge.org www.kabalarians.com
<eclecticn> :>
<BJKlein> Lazlo I understand your concern. There's certain social protocal that's important to ensure our success.
<eclecticn> tried to keep the descriptions minimal - as i wanted it to be like index-card size, cutting the note paper in two
<BJKlein> I keep in mind the ballance of perception and the critical nature of reaching out mission.
<BJKlein> I don't want to blow up the engine trying to go to fast.. but just fast enough to outrun death.
<eclecticn> makes sense. =
<eclecticn> (i think :\
<eclecticn> anyone else :?
<Lazlo> Once someone engages the issues on a fundamental level by all means pursue it and steadilly we will win rational, intelligent, dedicated converts to this common cause but don't think of it as lying to agrue for longevity in public and make your case for imortality philosophically
<BJKlein> ultimately it comes down to how each of us feels about it on a personal level.. i don't want to force anyone to adhere to any of my views.. I do wish to be clear about how i see it. Others are very free to accept, reject, debate, etc. That's fine with me.
<BJKlein> That Paul Almund article is pretty cool by the way
<Mind> Immortality or bust for me too BJK....good topic tonight...lively discussion...have to go now
<BJKlein> take care Mind
<Lazlo> I am impressed, the qulaity of writnig we are attracting is of teh highest quality and growing
<BJKlein> yes, we seem to be stepping up each month or so
<Lazlo> I still need that antidyslexia chip though for my typing
<BJKlein> heh you too?
<eclecticn> I believe that the perceptions of longevity are increasing - from the modern advances in sciences; but surely could be better. I believe - though, one fundamental weakness that exists is that we need drugs that give us great joy & empathy without the side effects, & to promote it on a massive scale
<eclecticn> I believe this would also open minds to the prospects of many things
<eclecticn> including, the idea of immortality
<BJKlein> eclecticn, i see that as part of it.. but chemical are sloppy
<eclecticn> they would be more likely to accept it - once such a thing occurs
<BJKlein> electronics are much more attractive
<eclecticn> how so?
<Lazlo> to you BJ but to each tere wil be a need to make that choice for themsleves
<BJKlein> it's much faster
<Lazlo> there*
<Lazlo> I tend to agree but I respect those that don't
<BJKlein> Lazlo, sure.. respect for views is of great importance..
<eclecticn> Bruce - do you mean our minds integrating with our machines?
<BJKlein> no force should be made to win an idea
<Lazlo> I am comfortable w/ uploading and mind erger but for many this is abhorent or abberrent
<BJKlein> eclecticn yes..
<BJKlein> check
http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=66&t=1539<eclecticn> it's already happening now - to some degree, but could electronics give us the great emotions that I seek?
<eclecticn> I haven't heard of any myself
<eclecticn> :O\
<Lazlo> no but why do you insist on seeing this as either or?
<BJKlein> eclecticn, that and more, i'd suspect
<eclecticn> There are drugs that do - like Ecstasy, but not without serious side effects
<BJKlein> Lazlo, heh because it is in my mind
<BJKlein> either / or
<BJKlein> either immortalty or oblivion
<BJKlein> not much alternative in my view
<Lazlo> but it isn't either/or it is one choice among many
<BJKlein> ehh.. so there's alternatives to live or death
<Lazlo> you are back at immortality or bust, but I was talking about th electronic mind option this time
<BJKlein> ahh sorry
<Lazlo> live, or die is not how we must spend our lives, that is why we talk of live fully or why?
<BJKlein> of course.. there are many alternatives for mind integration..
<BJKlein> well, i don't think there is a 'meaning' to life..
<BJKlein> this may be the difference we see in our views
<BJKlein> i dont' the universe is kind in that way
<BJKlein> it just is
<BJKlein> we just are and we have the choice for continuance or not
<Lazlo> now we can have two distinct and parallel talks by each answernigthe other out of sequence. Meaning is internally established not determined by external events and dying does not remove meaning from our life
<eclecticn> Bruce - please point me where in that article it describes a machine enhancing a person's moods?
<Lazlo> Plato dies a long while ago but his life had meaning then and certinly does still
<eclecticn> if it exists :>
<eclecticn> does anything in particular, exist that works yet?
<BJKlein> eclecticn, that was just a mind uploading article.. no mood change in there sorry
<Utnapishtee> Laz: I agree entirely
<super8> i dont
<super8> bcause plato is not here to see his extension
<super8> no offense
<Lazlo> none taken but the meaning of his work goes on regardless
<eclecticn> Bruce - I think seem plausible that if we have drugs that can already enhance our moods, they will be one of the big fundamentals in opening peoples minds
<Lazlo> and that which continues IS consistent with his intent by his own words
<eclecticn> before machines do
<goomba> i want to spend my days of immortality completely psychotic
<Lazlo> I am only demonstrating that meaning for one's existence is not suddenly destroyed when we die
<BJKlein> eclecticn i don't count this out.. it already has to some degree i believe
<super8> i understand totally
<BJKlein> just take an 'asprin' for instance.. done a lot of good as a drug on the brain
<eclecticn> Bruce - well, if you can find any thing that exist that does enhance mood (albeit maybe crudely
please tell me
<eclecticn> from a machine - ie :>
<super8> but i feel like if one cant live his extension life , it is no valuable
<BJKlein> eclecticn, i direct you to our nootropic forum.. ask LifeMirage he'll be happy to help ya
<Lazlo> actually they are doing Electro Shock again with mood enhancement in mind. <pun>
<eclecticn> do any of those nootropics mimic the sensation of Ecstasy?
<BJKlein> not that i'm aware
<eclecticn> that's what I'm after - something that really changes our moods & awareness
<BJKlein> i'm not an expert on what ecstasy feels like, but i don't think so..
<BJKlein> i think there's usually a side effect to deal with in such chemicals
<eclecticn> there is. =O(
<Lazlo> eclecticn why would you want to alter mood without a legitmate causal relationship to behavior and events?
<goomba> if there is an up there is a down
<Lazlo> don't get me wrong that isn't meant to be too judgemental sounding about getting high but I am curious regardless
<Mr> I would like to put myself into a steady good but "level" mood for most of the time
<eclecticn> because I want to feel very good, rather then sometimes very sad
<Mr> I too easily let small events disrupt an otherwise "good" mood
<Lazlo> I have long thought that we have reached a stage where the feeling has become more important than the reality and this concerns me
<Mr> but I don't want to be utterly "out of touch" with the reality around me
<Mr> I don't want to be like the people in "Brave New World"
<Mr> "give me my soma!"
<Jonesey> soma soma soma soma some some...yeah yeah yeah
<Lazlo> grief hurts w/out doubt but I would not want to feel joy when sorrow was appropriate as it would make all emotion shallow and superficial, hence meaningless to me
<eclecticn> Mr, Lazlo - quite correct, but these kind of drugs would illicit more awareness; & positively would drive change for when you feel very well, we tend to explore more
<eclecticn> (i think
<Lazlo> love isn't supposed to be so easy it comes in a pill, I don't mind a little struggle, I just don't want to forget joy in the process
<eclecticn> But I think it is important to not only enhance mood, but memory/processing capability too, & being able to make abstract distant relationships of things
<Mr> Lazlo: I agree with you but I think a drug/nano etc. which gives a happy/level mood would be good if it allowed for negative mood deviations should something really bad happen
<eclecticn> Mr - quite wrong
<eclecticn>
<eclecticn> in all seriousness, of course :>
<Lazlo> I would take nootropes but I don't. I would however love to be in an objective study to take them and test before and after and then after I stopped taking them again
<eclecticn> negative aversive moods are not beneficial - you do not have to feel the raw pain to be aware of it
<eclecticn> negative feelings tend to divide
<Mr> So are some of you against the use of antidepressants?
<eclecticn> they are too primitive
<eclecticn> (at least from what I know)
<Lazlo> Emotions are too imporant to me as a quality of life I perceive with, hence altering them too much is like altering perception to the point where halucination interferes with reality
<Mr> This form of medicine will only be more and more refined as the years go by.
<Lazlo> true Mr
<Lazlo> it is getting a lot of attention
<Lazlo> and there are many new varients getting approved or discovered almost everyday now
<Mr> Lazlo: Your take on things only works well for those who are mentally healthy. There are many people out there who are really suffering due to biological/environmental factors.
<eclecticn> Lazlo - you are assuming a happier mood will disillusion you into what's real, but I don't believe that to be the case
<Lazlo> but a cup of coffee or tea can be a mood enhancer, so are some B vitamins and St. John's Wort
<eclecticn> false perceptions of something - what about happy about being happy - without any intentional object?
<Lazlo> joy about joy is ratinal and I try to remind myself each day about that
<eclecticn> Lazlo - have you felt the effects of a better mood?
<Lazlo> there is much to relish in this world for al its faults
<Lazlo> better than what?
<eclecticn> does it disillude you? Can it not be used as a tool for your goals?
<Lazlo> better than a bad mood? I have known lotus eaters in my life and they began to care more about feeling good than why? I fear it is a common human weakness
<Lazlo> do you think people take illegal drugs because they make them feel bad?
<Lazlo> in some cases they do and they still feel the "good" outweighs the "bad" in that respect or they wouldn't become addicted
<Jonesey> is there a qualitative distinction between legal and illegal drugs?
<Lazlo> adictino works through the stimulationof the pleasure centers in the brain allowing manipulation of the same effects you are concerned with. Not in my mind but there is certainly a legal and social one
<Lazlo> addiction*
<Jonesey> chat addiction?
<Lazlo> yes there exists behavioral addictions including chats
<Lazlo> A recent study shows that internet use may have addictive qualities
<eclecticn> It is true we must be careful if an enhanced mood has side effects, but I'm speaking of mood enhancers without
<eclecticn> or much less serious
<Lazlo> gambling, sex, and religion are all forms of behavioral addiction, how can you manipulate mood without effect?
<Mr> Some scientists are now saying our "happiness thermostats" are set to a large part by genetics.
<eclecticn> Anyone ever experience a certain time where they had a lot of energy & a great mood? Did it help you in achieving your goals?
<eclecticn> (ie - if you had some
<eclecticn> Mr - I believe that to be true too
<Lazlo> Mr. there is some truth to teh hardwiring issue but also thereis a correlation ith intelligence and depression
<Mr> are bright people less or more depressed?
<Mermaid> what a question!
<Lazlo> and there is also situatinal depression, sometimes we are depressed because we have good reason and need to wake up and pay attention, bright peolpe tend to be more depressed
<eclecticn> Mr - bright people & depression are independent of each other
<Lazlo> statistically that is but it has always been known as a fools paradise on Earth
<Mr> I would think more intelligence would lessen the odds of depression because you would be more enabled to succeed at your goals (where at least high intellect was a key factor).
<Mr> I realize "brains" alone don't spell success
<Mermaid> mr: where did you get that?
<Lazlo> goals orientation and feelings of success are not as directly related as you might expect, most higly intelligent people arenot motivated as much by the goals as teh challenge
<Mr> Mermaid: just my own thinking
<Mermaid> mr: surely, you arrived at that by observation or by instruction
<Mr> "it's the journey not the arrival"
<eclecticnrg> back :>
<eclecticnrg> mobo locked :O(
<Mr> Mermaid: both
<Lazlo> ahh Keith I was just making your case for you
<Lazlo> we were discussing behavioral addiction and the relationship woud manipulationof the pleasure centers of the brain
<Lazlo> with manipulation of*
<eclecticnrg> has anyone ever been able to contact the writer from www.hedweb.com?
<eclecticnrg> i've tried multiple times - with no replies :(
<eclecticnrg> Lazlo - have you checked that site?
<Lazlo> no not yet
<eclecticnrg> do so :>
<eclecticnrg> it is in-line with our discussion :>
<Lazlo> k
<Jonesey> which pleasure centers does chatting manipulate?
<eclecticnrg> read the objections at the bottom
<eclecticnrg> this page may also be of help
http://www.hedweb.co...ic/hedon3.htm#3<eclecticnrg> hello Utnapishtim :>
<Utnapishtim> hey
<eclecticnrg> =
<Utnapishtim> booted again:(
<eclecticnrg> how's it go there?
<eclecticnrg> heh
<eclecticnrg> same :D
<Lazlo> ahh the Hedonistic imperative, yes this I have heard of but found too limited to be personally desirable but I willreview it more at your suggestion
<Utnapishtim> shaky connection tonight
<eclecticnrg> Lazlo - too limited?
<Lazlo> yes pain and suffereing are very important feedback measures of threat and risk. The information they provide are critical to survival
<eclecticnrg> at least with the technology that we use now..
<eclecticnrg> but that won't always be the case..
<Jonesey> also you get good damage awards for pain/suffering
<Lazlo> too much or acycle of pain that is self reinforcing is neurotic or even psychotic but I am talking about the healthy spectrum of sensation should have a real and tangible range to include that which hurts
<eclecticnrg> pain & suffering was created by natural selection when we were a more barbaric species
<hkhenson> interesting lazlo
<Lazlo> I also suspect that without some potential for suffering joy will become meaningless
<eclecticnrg> our tools will be the predessors
<hkhenson> pain is not much of a motivator though
<Jonesey> u kidding me?
<eclecticnrg> Lazlo - you haven't been reading the "objections"
<Lazlo> positive feeling exist withincontrasting spectra, I agree Ketih
<Utnapishtim> Pain and suffering help to make life meaningful by providing meaningful negative consequences. I for one, would like to keep them
<hkhenson> where people will work a lifetime for higher status in the eyes of their "tribesmen"
<Lazlo> No I said I would I came back in here to finish our chat
<Jonesey> pain is highly motivating, much more than pleasure. most ppl are risk averse, avoid pain more than they crave pleasure
<eclecticnrg> Lazlo -
http://www.hedweb.co....htm#incoherent<eclecticnrg> "...impossible because happiness depends on contrast with sadness... "
<eclecticnrg> there you go =
<Lazlo> I don't agree Jonesy, I suspect reward is a better incentive than threat but clearly they both have a motivatinal component
<Jonesey> utility functions to the extent that we can quantify them tend to have negative 2nd derivatives
<hkhenson> jonesey, can you cite studies on that?
<Jonesey> yes, economics is based on that
<Utnapishtim> A consequence free life strikes me as fundamentally pointless
<hkhenson> pain??
<Jonesey> negatively convex utility functions
<Lazlo> loss = pain?
<hkhenson> hmm.
<Jonesey> fear of pain is greater than love of gain
<Lazlo> loss hurts yes?
<Jonesey> yes love hurts too
<Utnapishtim> what would be the negative consequences of poor decisionmaking in a painfree world?
<hkhenson> if that were the case, people never would have hunted.
<eclecticnrg> if we didn't have pain in our minds - i doubt we'd have murders too
<eclecticnrg> murderers
<Lazlo> love doesn't hurt fear of/or loss of love hurts
<eclecticnrg> my mom died because of that..
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...=48<Jonesey> sorry to hear that eclecticnrg
<hkhenson> jonesey, you up on evolutionary psychology?
<Utnapishtim> I have aestetic problems with a world in which people must not face risks of some sort
<hkhenson> google: evolutionary psychology
<googlebot> googling for evolutionary psychology
<googlebot>
http://www.psych.ucs...u/research/cep/<Jonesey> hkhenson:evolutionary psychology seems a bit misplaced in analyzing humans
<Jonesey> we don't understand psychology very well yet
<Lazlo> I suspect we become to weak to defend our survival interests as a species Utna
<hkhenson> have you read this stuff???
<hkhenson> do you grok evolution, like dawkins?
<hkhenson> David Buss?
<Lazlo> risk avoidance is often the easiest path to greater problems
<Utnapishtim> Lalo: Agree with the weakness issue
<hkhenson> robert wright?
<Utnapishtim> A consequence free life fills me with almost as much dread as death itself, perhaps more so
<Utnapishtim> now that I think about it
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> utn, I can't dread that.
<hkhenson> because I can't imagine it.
<Lazlo> well we are far off topic now and I haven't done my best to stay on topic so I should change tasks and say goodight everyone. It is a topic we should discuss someday if BJ is still listening
<Lucifer> Utnapishtim, you would appreciate localroger's novel
<Jonesey> dawkins is more of a game theorist than psychologist
<eclecticnrg> Bruce - great post you referred to, I agree completely =
<Utnapishtim> Lucifer: I will have to check it out!
<Lazlo> take care folks been fun chatting again
<Jonesey> attempts to apply evolution to human psychology are very fraught, because human psychology is so elastic
<Lazlo> I'll leave this window open but be away
<Jonesey> cultures deform it into bizarre forms that are counterproductive to dna survival
<hkhenson> lets put it this way, do you think human psychology was shaped by evolution?
<Jonesey> yes, but it has been shaped to such great elasticity it is now difficult to trace the outlines of evolution
<hkhenson> particularly evolution in the ancestrial environment
<hkhenson> huh??
<hkhenson> wow. so you buy that humans are social primates?
<hkhenson> that chimps are our nearest relatives?
<Jonesey> Yes, of course.
<Jonesey> nearest extant relatives
<Jonesey> many of our nearest relatives were wiped out, presumably by us
<hkhenson> ok. do you know what corelates strongest with reproductive success for males?
<Jonesey> chimps the closest left but clearly there were many others
<hkhenson> in both chimps and humans
<Jonesey> depends on the env, way back when physical size/athleticism mattered a lot, now we have bill gates
<hkhenson> nope.
<Jonesey> spectacularly unfit for the ancestral env but doing rather well in the modern on
<Jonesey> e
<hkhenson> kissenger said it best
<hkhenson> power is the ultimate aphrodesiac
<Jonesey> none to fit himself in the ancestral env
<hkhenson> another way of saying social status, no matter what it takes to get it, is the key to reproductive success.
<Jonesey> power means something very different at different times
<Jonesey> that's true
<Jonesey> but what translates into status is very different at different times and places
<hkhenson> right, but that does not matter
<hkhenson> hunting seals or being good a war
<hkhenson> whatever is the accepted way to high social status
<hkhenson> so do you understand that a million years of this would leave people highly motivated to seek high social status?
<Jonesey> yes, but the methods by which they attain it have changed dramatically
<hkhenson> so?
<Jonesey> and yes, it matters a great deal.
<hkhenson> why?
<Jonesey> we're being selected for dramatically different characteristics now
<Jonesey> versus back in the ancestral env.
<hkhenson> heh
<hkhenson> we are hardly selected at all nowadays
<Jonesey> not true.
<Jonesey> 40k babies starve to death each day, something like that.
<Jonesey> lot of adults starve too, plus many die in wars and what not
<Jonesey> infant mortality is astronomical for most of humanity still
<hkhenson> does this change the gene frequencies??
<Jonesey> obviously
<hkhenson> in what way?
<Jonesey> it's not randomly distributed across the gene pool
<Jonesey> who the hell knows, we don't understand our genome very well yet.
<eclecticnrg> Jonesey - in the technologically advanced cultures of modern health - there's much less infant mortality from what I read
<Jonesey> most humans don't live in tech advanced societies
<eclecticnrg> probably not..
<hkhenson> point being that unless there is selection there is no evolution
<Jonesey> clearly there is selection
<Jonesey> so there is evolution
<eclecticnrg> selection of what kind?
<hkhenson> and people are not being selected to speak of for not requiring food
<eclecticnrg> natural selection?
<Jonesey> yes
<hkhenson> that is out of the range evolution can manage
<Jonesey> huh?
<eclecticnrg> natural selection won't be around for much longer once we understand the human genome enough to manipulate it
<hkhenson> anyway, regardless, most of our psychology was shaped when we lived in small tribes
<eclecticnrg> (taken from hedweb
<eclecticnrg>
<Jonesey> the fact that people are starving to death in a non random fashion across dna space clearly means a shift in gene frequencies over time, that is selection
<hkhenson> non random. ..
<hkhenson> what do you mean by that?
<hkhenson> they are starving in some areas?
<Jonesey> what does it sound like it means?
<Jonesey> hehehehe
<Jonesey> ok gotta crash
<hkhenson> tall ones are starving? short ones?
<Jonesey> been fun, nite nite
<BJKlein> take care Jonesey
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> some people could really use a bit more background
<ravi> bjk... what do u think will happen when the baby boomer hits 70, 75...do u see it overcrowding the health care system?
<BJKlein> depends
<BJKlein> i expect great gains from nano and ai
<BJKlein> so it should be a problem..
* BJKlein bbl
<hkhenson> good fraction of gen x is already hard of hearing. rock concerts
<hkhenson> and younger
<celindra> I only have one good ear and am quickly losing hearing in the other
<hkhenson> japan is slightly ahead of everyone else in a number of areas
<rav3n> china, on the other hand...
http://edition.cnn.c...e.ap/index.html<hkhenson> aging population . . . .
<ravi> generation X is de
