51 replies to this topic

[graatch]

EMSAM basically turned my inattentive ADD into ADHD -- I expect Nardil to do the same.

[purerealm]

seems like i was hyperactive as a kid and then now i have sluggish cognitive tempo, so frustrating

[tarbtl]

I have the exact same thing (inattentive ADD). I posted about it thoroughly in some other threads I made a while back.

The biggest help for me, was Wellbutrin. It cured 80% of my problems. The reason I found this thread is because I'm on vacation and have ran out of Wellbutrin 2 weeks ago and am starting to fall apart again. People keep reporting it's anti-cholinergenic properties but I don't know what that's all about, because when I'm *not* on it, I feel like I have lost half my brain.

The shittiest thing about inattentive ADD is the sluggishness in speech. As much as I try to be professional, people always end up discovering that I am, on one level or another a bit "goofy" and am seen as the guy that "doesn't have his shit together" despite all the other good stuff that I have going for me. It has nothing to do with my inner beliefs either
It's purely on an external level. A quick example; doing everyday things like walking around, I often bump into objects like walls or chairs nonchalantly. This is avoided to some extent when on Wellbutrin and completely avoided on Adderall. Who the **** does this? Not many people that I know of. But whatever. I don't care about that and it doesn't bother me but it's just something worth mentionning.

This is such a hard journey for us, but if you find enough things that work, in combination, then you're all set.

Some things that I have discoved along the way, and about myself;

1) I originally thought this was CFS; although I have many of the symptoms, I am physically very capable. As long as I am motivated enough, I don't "burn out" or get physically tired like most other people with CFS. In fact, I score above average in this realm, although my hand-eye coordination is *shit*.

2) Terrible memory problems, and I'm only 19. Have to have a notepad handy on me at all times to avoid major ****-ups.

As bad as this sounds, I sometimes envy people with ADHD and hypomania. Their problem is so much easier to solve on so many levels. It's easier to tame something down than to wake keep something constantly artificially stimulated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania

"In the hypomanic state, people may feel like they can't slow their mind down, and that all these speeding thoughts are amazingly perfectly crafted. Some examples would be speaking or writing in rhyme or alliteration without planning it first; quick responses to people talking; or the ability to improvise easily on the spot. In more severe cases, hypomanic people may actually hear constant music in their head, or see images in their mind racing by."

I could use some of that!

Man... I've much more to say but I don't really know where I'm going with this. I guess I just wanted to revive this thread because it has a lot of great links and might be helpful to some people.

[theta]

The biggest help for me, was Wellbutrin. It cured 80% of my problems.

I'm curious what dose your taking? I took it at various doses and only at 450 mg did it give a hint to making me more focused.

[graatch]

>For example, I myself am trying to work on role playing/scripting conversations

heh

[orangish]

I agree with you theta. 450 is only a hint for some reason. But what are we to do if this is the max. safest dose?

PS don't mind my above post. I often make absolutely no sense.

[graatch]

Nope, I wish you had left it up. I just thought the quote was funny, and telling. [thumb] Pre-scripting conversations is the kind of behavior I have engaged in for as long as I can remember. What do you think of the supposed schizoid personality (the definition of which depends on which theorist you're reading), a lot of which strikes me as values (which can't be reduced to the chemicals, or successfully medicated for that matter) but other pieces of which are pretty resonant. I think people like that have been kicking around for a long time ...

>But what are we to do if this is the max. safest dose?

Oh, well, someday amineptine will be more available. What did you think of Frangible's aniracetam log? That might be useful for blunting some of wellbutrins anxiogenesis, while increasing focus -- supposing you're a responder. Also, NADH. Bacopa?

Edited by graatch, 16 October 2007 - 03:45 AM.

[theta]

I agree with you theta.  450 is only a hint for some reason.  But what are we to do if this is the max. safest dose?

PS don't mind my above post.  I often make absolutely no sense.

I read 600 mg should be considered the max daily dose. Supposedly to reduce seizure risk. Personally I did not like the way I felt on it
to consider higher doses and the positive effects did not seem to warrant use of the product till my body adjusted to the side effects.

[aero]

having many symptoms of inattentive attention disorder, but living in the UK I havent been officially diagnosed. At 24, I have learnt to deal with it. I used to think stimulants / nootropics were the only solution, I'd only want to do things / interact when I was in a high state. This is impossible to maintain and for me lead to depression / anxiety / limiting beliefs. After achieving my university degree, I focused on social skills / personal development / starting a interesting career. After numerous blood tests / consultations Im 1 year into a career I never thought I was capable of. My advice is similar to "luv2increase". Good balanced meals / fishoils / multi vitamin (NOW Adam) and a desirable lifestyle. I would recommend cutting down on Stims / Nootropics and using them as "tools". I still have 100mg caffeine in the morning and before lunch, but I avoid anything other than personal achievement to attain a high state. Yerba Mate (loose) Tea has some of the most desirable properties for relaxation / strength / mood elevation and is part of my staple diet. Aside those from those 2 supplement for stimulation, I recommend working on getting into "the zone" http://en.wikipedia....ow_(psychology) : through meditation / anaerobic exercise / activities that interest you. The Zen approach to life / work / relationships has also made things much easier for me: simplify thinking, life isnt as complicated as 21st Century mediation and aggressive marketing leads us to believe. Check http://www.daozang.com/rules.html or the excellent book "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind". Charisma Arts www.charismaarts.com have a very deep understanding of social and male/female interactions, I highly recommend Juggler's eBook. Finally take action: find a challenging purpose to life, supplements can give you an edge but 90% of mental development is through participating in engaging activities.

[Evolutionary]

graatch,I don't think Nardil turns inattentive ADD into ADHD. Wikipedia lists one of its effects as fatigue. Can you have fatigue and ADHD at the same time?

[rebuild101]

I'm not sure about the Nardil turning ADD to ADHD, but I'm pretty sure you can have ADHD and fatigue.... See: http://en.wikipedia....cognitive_tempo low dopamine = low energy, right?

[orangish]

So...
Any recommended books on tape, books in print, other activities that I can do on a regular basis, asides from sudoku, that will improve my concentration reserves and skill at communication/analytical thinking?

I am filled with inconsistent abilities. My professor has called my writing and ideas eloquent, yet I have trouble often directing basic conversations and as an add-on to my frustration cannot participate in class discussion.

My hope really diminishes by the day and I feel rather powerless about controlling/manifesting my abilities, which even though I seem remedial, have been recognized constantly.

Anyways there's really nothing more to add. I'm just in the pile of people bound to struggle with the same exact issues every day of their lives and will only try my best this year before accepting mediocrity.

[jackinbox]

I agree with you theta.  450 is only a hint for some reason.  But what are we to do if this is the max. safest dose?

PS don't mind my above post.  I often make absolutely no sense.

The maximum dose in Canada is 300mg/day. I'm on 150 mg/day and have innatentive adhd. When do you take your pills?

[Jacovis]

I fell off with the balance board (heh), but it was giving me interesting results after doing it for a couple of months. There are some very positive responders on the addforums.com ... many pieces of the affliction seems to be addressed. Focus, attention, confidence, processing speed. I had to move into school but I'm going to be picking it up again soon.

Really interesting... I am interested in trying that Learning Breakthrough Program as well as an alternative to the Dore program (which seems to be very overpriced).

So are you still going on this program Graatch?
How would you rate its effect on ADD if you do the exercises on a regular basis compared to caffeine or an amphetamine-drug?

I would think the Learning Breakthrough Program would be a much better option than drugs as its ment to actually change things (the cerebrellum) permanently in the brain if done long term. Even if symptoms do regress a little you could always go back to doing the exercises for free once you bought the kit.

I think part of the problem is it takes a lot of discipline to do the exercises every day twice a day for months - and ADDers aren't known for our discipline
Another problem is that there are so many things out there for ADD that this potentially brilliant risk-free idea (though underesearched) is not known of by most people with the disorder. I mean this is 'can't hurt and could possibly change your life treatment' if done long-term whereas other treatments either:
- help and seem safe enough but need to be used every day for the rest of your life to maintain the effects (the 'safer' supplements like Bacopa and Fish Oil as well as Meditation);
- help and but could be risky if taken long-term because of possible neurotoxicity/also need to be taken everyday to maintain the improvement (the amphetamines used as standard ADD treatments come to mind).

Anybody care to comment...

[REGIMEN]

seems like i was hyperactive as a kid and then now i have sluggish cognitive tempo, so frustrating

Seems right to me: overactivity in developing years wore you out. It impressed your system with a tempo it could not sustain past the hormonally-rich periods of adolescence and pubescence.

Edited by liplex, 09 December 2007 - 05:48 AM.

[REGIMEN]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania

"In the hypomanic state, people may feel like they can't slow their mind down, and that all these speeding thoughts are amazingly perfectly crafted. Some examples would be speaking or writing in rhyme or alliteration without planning it first; quick responses to people talking; or the ability to improvise easily on the spot. In more severe cases, hypomanic people may actually hear constant music in their head, or see images in their mind racing by."

I could use some of that!

I've had that at times (music that needs only subtle mental "intent conducting"; always happened when in bed at either end of sleep). As far as I understand it is rebellious uprising qi (caloric energy backed up in the metabolic sequence by a stagnant or excessive liver state incapable of smoothly processing and metering it out). I have heard the most glorious, genius, mesmerizing, nuanced performances of a multitude of music styles(some I created and with none of that pedestrian repetition, either!) but it is a worthless pet trick (and unhealthy symptom) since during this state memory is dampened merely by the excess of detail engendered by so much mental energy available during a "session".

Edited by liplex, 09 December 2007 - 06:22 AM.

[REGIMEN]

As these issues develop over years they turn into these here at this link.

[REGIMEN]

As these issues develop over years they turn into these here at this link.

YeS! Thread killer! Number 5 this month!!!

[luv2increase]

I will say this much. I have always been a believer in TCM medicine. I've been to an acupuncturist on three occasions and have always believed in herbal, whether it be chinese or not, remedies and supplementation. I am not 100% confident in their approach though. You have to have an open mind an explore different modalities of health and wellness. Try to mix things up a little bit in your approaches to medical problems of any nature. I really have not seen anything worthwhile which you have posted here with regards to AD/HD. I have primarily inattentive type ADD without the hyperactivity. I've tried one medication thus far which was called focalinxr. It is the extended release version of the pure dex form of ritalin. Anyways, that didn't work, and I could have gone on dexedrine, but I opted not to. I remembered in the past that an aggressive nootropic, supplement, and exercise regimen has always made me 110%. So, I am now going back into another health freak stage which I must say is getting me back on track once again. With a proper game plan, one can overcome their unfortunate disorder naturally without the use of medicinal drugs. The approach could be anything from Bio-feedback to a nootropic stack.

[REGIMEN]

I will say this much. I have always been a believer in TCM medicine. I've been to an acupuncturist on three occasions and have always believed in herbal, whether it be chinese or not, remedies and supplementation. I am not 100% confident in their approach though. You have to have an open mind an explore different modalities of health and wellness. Try to mix things up a little bit in your approaches to medical problems of any nature. I really have not seen anything worthwhile which you have posted here with regards to AD/HD. I have primarily inattentive type ADD without the hyperactivity. I've tried one medication thus far which was called focalinxr. It is the extended release version of the pure dex form of ritalin. Anyways, that didn't work, and I could have gone on dexedrine, but I opted not to. I remembered in the past that an aggressive nootropic, supplement, and exercise regimen has always made me 110%. So, I am now going back into another health freak stage which I must say is getting me back on track once again. With a proper game plan, one can overcome their unfortunate disorder naturally without the use of medicinal drugs. The approach could be anything from Bio-feedback to a nootropic stack.

If doctors continually put you on drugs that end up not working for you...that means 1) they don't know what is wrong with you, 2) they don't know what the drugs do, either. Scary if you think about how many people have to depend on this kind of "health care" that merely seats you on a carousel of expensive palliatives.

All the nootropics/vitamins/exercise is going to to is push you to a point, yet again, when you can't take it anymore and taper off. Lifestyle change; ADD/ADHD -types shouldn't expect themselves to be able to live the kind of life non-ADD/ADHD-types live. Makes sense. Different set of expectations might do you some good.

Three acupunture sessions does some...but only a fraction for any single condition. Most people go in for acupuncture with a few conditions piled one on top of another(incurred over years, but they expect resolution in days; go figure) and then there are the deep-seated issues most Western diets and modern lifestyles create(developmental differences incurred pre-conception in the parents all the way to the end of puberty and beyond, if you will). You're looking at acupuncture about once a week for quite some time along with mild -daily- exercise, nuanced diet watching, and some enjoyment of your capacities without self-loathing.

Another thing to consider: Normalcy isn't always about being able to race circles around people and work. Those types are usually just lucky bastards with better breeding, discipline, and some coffee. If you play your cards right you could be the one that lives longer, avoids that over-the-hill gut, and has some relationships with the world that aren't based on domination and seedy ego-gratification.

Edited by liplex, 13 December 2007 - 08:08 AM.

[luv2increase]

ADD/ADHD -types shouldn't expect themselves to be able to live the kind of life non-ADD/ADHD-types live. Makes sense. Different set of expectations might do you some good.

Not true. If one does it right, they can overcome their disorder and be even better than the individual without AD/HD. I believe this 100%. Hell, those whose systems agree with it by using amphetamines etc... already are at a one up on the average non-ADD joe.

[mystery]

If doctors continually put you on drugs that end up not working for you...that means 1) they don't know what is wrong with you, 2) they don't know what the drugs do, either. Scary if you think about how many people have to depend on this kind of "health care" that merely seats you on a carousel of expensive palliatives.

All the nootropics/vitamins/exercise is going to to is push you to a point, yet again, when you can't take it anymore and taper off. Lifestyle change; ADD/ADHD -types shouldn't expect themselves to be able to live the kind of life non-ADD/ADHD-types live. Makes sense. Different set of expectations might do you some good.

Three acupunture sessions does some...but only a fraction for any single condition. Most people go in for acupuncture with a few conditions piled one on top of another(incurred over years, but they expect resolution in days; go figure) and then there are the deep-seated issues most Western diets and modern lifestyles create(developmental differences incurred pre-conception in the parents all the way to the end of puberty and beyond, if you will). You're looking at acupuncture about once a week for quite some time along with mild -daily- exercise, nuanced diet watching, and some enjoyment of your capacities without self-loathing.

Another thing to consider: Normalcy isn't always about being able to race circles around people and work. Those types are usually just lucky bastards with better breeding, discipline, and some coffee. If you play your cards right you could be the one that lives longer, avoids that over-the-hill gut, and has some relationships with the world that aren't based on domination and seedy ego-gratification.

liplex, thank you for your insight. I'm comming to more or less the same conclusions. I think I have "ADHD PI" or at least SCT symptoms like difficulty in remembering things, slow learning, and slow thought processes making me suggesh in accomplashing things. I feel the worst part of having SCT symptoms is the effect on socializing skills. It's a big challenge to make friends and have relationships. I've always aspired to "fix" whatever was wrong with me, and become more normal. Thats why I can't relinquish the prespective of luv2increase. But than, a big part of personal development is being comfortable with who you are. Some traits of this condition are somewhat desirable and some can possibly be attractive to some people.

All the nootropics/vitamins/exercise is going to to is push you to a point, yet again, when you can't take it anymore and taper off. Lifestyle change; ADD/ADHD -types shouldn't expect themselves to be able to live the kind of life non-ADD/ADHD-types live. Makes sense. Different set of expectations might do you some good.

Exactly how I feel. It always seems like when I push myself to extremes with exercise or supplements or even drugs, myself pushes back and I feel like sh*t. I am beginning to change my expectations and it really is an amazing shift in percpective that is so hard to make. Who wants to accept being different, and that life can't be the way you always thought it should be? What really helps me is finding out about others who are similar to realize that I'm not such a freak. It becomes less about what's wrong, and more about what's different about me. At some point you just have to say "f*ck the world", and being selfish enough to live for yourself and not others can be a very good thing.

the deep-seated issues most Western diets and modern lifestyles create(developmental differences incurred pre-conception in the parents all the way to the end of puberty and beyond, if you will).

Its just my opinion that a lot of developmental problems (of which ADHD both PI and hyperactive-impusive are) may be caused by mothers who drink and/or smoke during pregnancy. Even one eposide can cause huge changes in the way a fetus develops. And we don't fully understand the consequences of thousands of other chemicals that mothers are exposed to in the modern lifestyle.

Check these statistics: http://www.cdc.gov/n...nitor_table.htm women don't always know when they are pregnant, and a lot knowningly drink during pregnancy.

and some enjoyment of your capacities without self-loathing

For me this takes freedom of expectations.

Another thing to consider: Normalcy isn't always about being able to race circles around people and work. Those types are usually just lucky bastards with better breeding, discipline, and some coffee. If you play your cards right you could be the one that lives longer, avoids that over-the-hill gut, and has some relationships with the world that aren't based on domination and seedy ego-gratification.

Its funny how true that is.