43 replies to this topic

[Athanasios]

One mechanims that I use to get the point across is getting the individual to think outside their own chances of immortality first

I noticed that I did this, when I brought the topic forward in the past. I didn't really think of the utility of it though, thanks for mentioning it.

[Aegist]

One mechanims that I use to get the point across is getting the individual to think outside their own chances of immortality first

I noticed that I did this, when I brought the topic forward in the past. I didn't really think of the utility of it though, thanks for mentioning it.

Actually, this is one of the most powerful realisations I have had in the past few years with regards to immortality, and easily my biggest motivation: My parents are getting old. And the idea of losing either one of them terrifies me.

[kurt9]

Ceth,

I have a question for you.

When you present to these college students, do they express any active hostility towards your ideas? Or do they just dismiss it as being flaky?

Young people see middle-age as an unimaginitively distant future. I certainly did when I was in high school and college. I remember getting a flyer in the mail from Saul Kent's Life Extension foundation saying that 150 year lifespans were possible. I threw it out thinking that it was flaky. Later, I decided that this aging thing really did suck and that's when I became interested in life extension. So, maybe your target audience is simply too young.

I lived as an expat in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, and Malaysia) for 10 years. I travel there often on business. My experience with discussing radical life extension ideas in the pubs with other expats has usually been quite positive. The American expats love the idea. Most of the Europeans do not (many Europeans seem to have pessimistic luddite attitudes about the future). One expat that I "pitched" cryonics and life extension to told me he was catholic and that he had no interest in this stuff, but thought it was totally cool that I was into it and that I should "go for it".

Expats are, by nature, more adventure-oriented than most other people. Hense, I think their increased interest in the expanded personal opportunities of radical life extension.

Wing Girl:

I really do appreciate your interest in these ideas. Good for you. Most family types I know seem to be mildly hostile towards these ideas. I think these ideas offer a brighter future for your children.

[kurt9]

Ceth,

I think your target audience is simply too young.

I was 16 years old, sitting in front of the telly eating a pizza in the summer of 1979, when the newstory about the "Chatsworth cryonics disaster" came on the telly. I had vaguely heard of cryonics (I don't remember where) so I understood what it was about. Anyways, I was so repulsed by the whole story that I told myself that I would never have anything to do with something as flaky as cryonics. 7 years later, in 1986, I got involved.

The kids need to grow up a bit before they have any interest in this stuff. 40 years old is a methuselah's age to a typical high school or college kid.

[Shannon Vyff]

Kurt, that is a good point. I heard of Cryonics on T.V. when a teen--but didn't take it seriously till I was told by a Doctor during a high-risk pregnancy at age 21, that I could die. I researched cryonics a lot more and learned it was more feasible than the generally media made it out to be.

I think when people grow a little bit older perhaps they are confronted with their mortality upfront in a way that makes them want to do something about it. Sure we all would not walk in front of a bus, but not all do CR or cryonics, or became 300 members (our best 'chances' right now for longer and a very long life).

I really don't know why families would be hostile to these ideas--it is indeed interesting to me to see how my children carry into their adulthood these ideas they see as natural now. The have a healthy dose of volunteerism, and activism under their belts as well-- so I'll continue on with them as my little experiments

I included a chapter about China in the future in my book, hoping that it might someday appeal to an Asian market-- I'd sure love some Immortalist that speaks Chinese , or has familiarity with Chinese culture, to read my book and let me know their ideas of how it may go over in that country. I'd sure have to sell a lot more likely before I could be translated however-- but I did write my book for all '21st Century (Earth) Kids'

[kurt9]

Wing girl,

I'm not sure if the Asian people (Chinese, Japanese) themselves are interested in these ideas. Alot of technology themes like space colonies, robotics, and AI are common staples in Japanese manga. Hell, robotics are becoming a common staple in Japan, let alone in the SF. However, I'm not sure if the people are really into this stuff or if it is just entertainment to them. My wife (who is Japanese) is into life extension, but thinks cryonics is flaky.

I was refering to the American expats who live in Japan and other Asian countries. Its the expats who are generally receptive to these ideas.

There is a "transhumanist" group in Japan (I met them once when I was there) comprised of some expats and mostly Japanese people. However, they were rather flaky (I was involved in a start-up at the time and therefor, was in a hard-headed businessman state of mind) and did not spend much time with them.

[kurt9]

About the East Asians:

The East Asian peoples (Chinese, Japanese, koreans) have certainly embraced technological innovation and economic growth as a means to improve their condition in life. However, I am not convinced that this makes them "natural born transhumanists". These societies were static, inward-oriented for several thousand years. The one time that China became outward-oriented was at the end of the Ming dynasty, and it was shot down by the manderin bureaucrats. Such inward-orientation seems to be their natural trait.

Certainly they have embraced technological innovation and economic growth. However, I think they are into this more as a restorative process (to restore them to their proper station of respect in life as the world's premier people) rather than as these things being values of their own. The Chinese, in particular, are natural born traders and entrepreneurs. But they do not seem to have the pioneering spirit that we have (or used to have).

In any case, "restoration to their proper station of respect in the world" will take a good 40-50 years, involving a 40-50 period of technological innovation. This should be sufficient that, if East Asia (like much of the West) should become inward-oriented again, we will have our nanotech and space development technologies so that we can get out of here and do our own thing on our own. In my darker moments, I think this is the best we can hope for (and work for).

[Shannon Vyff]

Well, in the future portrayed in my book--China is much more into unified character (building code/color code/ art) than U.S. and they have a robot research facility in competition for #1 with America's. Nobel prizes are the giant 'sport' of Earth's society then, and China competes in this as well.

My daughter who is 10, knows a little Japanese and we are currently looking for a teacher (if anyone knows of one in the Austin TX area ) but she has always been fascinated with Japanese culture and animation. My son has a goal of traveling to China, so I'm hoping to take my kids there when they are teens.

Thanks for the insights you've offered into the asian culture. With an apox. 10 to 1 speaking our language, I think that the Chinese will have a very large influence on Earth through the next couple of hundred years. I hope that text and voice translation software picks up the pace from where it is right now-- we need more idea sharing between the cultures to foster an 'Earth' attitude.

[kurt9]

Wing girl,

If it is an option for you, you should try to visit the various East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China) sometime. Japan is quite expensive but China is quite reasonable. China is undergoing radical change. Imagine the industrial revolution of 100 years ago, the urbanization revolution of the 1940's, the social revolution of the late 60's and 70's, and the technology revolution of today; all occuring at once. This is what is going on in China.

The major east coast cities (Shanghai, Beijing, Ningbo, etc.) are really quite modern. They are all much cleaner than any of the Taiwan cities. People tell me that the inland areas of China are still poor, but are developing as well.

They are building lots of infrastructure. They are building a freeway network that will have 3 times the mileage that our interstate highway system has - in a 15 year period. They are building 2 shinkansen lines (high speed trains) - one of them is a meglev that will go between Beijing and Shanghai (travel time of 8 hours) and a regular shinkansen between Shanghai and Shenzhen (in the south, near HK).

The downside to Chinese development is pollution. They are finally trying to get a grip on this. The new coal plants are required to have the clean burning technology that coal plants have in the west and they are starting to build nuclear plants (pebble-bed reactors).

Japan, despite its decreasing population, is starting to grow again, economically speaking. Environmentally, Japan is generally clean (they went through their transition in the 70's). Despite being expensive, Japan is quite nice but is very crowded (more so than China), especially the Tokyo area. The onsens (hot springs) are quite nice.

I lived in Japan for 9 years and Taiwan for 1 year. I travelled often to Malaysia and have been to most of the S.E. Asian countries.

I currently live in the U.S. (Portland Oregon area) but travel often to Asia on business.

East Asia (and to a lesser extent South Asia) will play a prominant role in the future of humanity.

[xanadu]

People always act like that when radical ideas come along. They attack those who bring the idea up. That's why there are so few with new concepts, they are trained from an early age to avoid them. Try bringing up a radical idea on this board and you will see the same thing happen.

Why is it we feel the need to sell this concept in the first place? Is it because we don't have enough members and need a lot more? Quantity does not equal quality. Is it because if everyone wanted to live forever that would help each of us? I don't think it would. It would mean more competition for life extension resources. What is the advantage to convincing everyone to see things our way?

Before the first 20 people can say "to get more funding", it's been said before already. More funding does not equal faster progress, not always. We are already spending a bunch on health research. In what way would earmarking money for "longevity" or somesuch make any difference to what's going on now? More health = more longevity anyway.

[Athanasios]

My daughter who is 10, knows a little Japanese and we are currently looking for a teacher (if anyone knows of one in the Austin TX area   )  but she has always been fascinated with Japanese culture and animation.

I would check out ACC and UT for students that meet your qualifications.

[Shannon Vyff]

Thanks, I've been meaning to do that actually... I'm meeting with a UT professor on Friday for lunch, (he is having a Japanese friend do some cryonics studies translation) I'm hoping to find a family with young children, where Avianna can trade lessons for being a mothers helper...

[brokenportal]

These has been insightful reading. I think Ill try to merge all these ideas into a blog essay of sorts expressing avenues for getting life extension through to people.

Something that occured to me through reading this is that even if your not seeing any proactivity in people when you tell them about life extension, they may not be indifferent toward the plight itself, but just lazy in the same way that most of us are when it comes to those starving babies in third world countries commercials.

I have a few techniques I use and things I keep in mind, people need to hear about a new concept from around 3 credable sources before they begin to beleive it, talk about it in terms that its happening rather than we hope it happens and a bunch of other things.

[brokenportal]

We have begun a list of ways to "Combat the Pro Aging Trance" on line 36 of this rough draft version of LEEEP. The project will be moving to its official spot in the immortality institute wiki as it becomes ready.

There is also a topic about this called "What are some things you say to chip away at the pro aging trancists?"