55 replies to this topic

[edward]

Geez do your research. Green tea does not inhibit Sirt1 at least according to the most recent research if it is stabilized

[edward]

for instance:

http://www.scienceda...70514102550.htm

The SIRT1 activity can be simulated by various polyphenols. De Boer discovered that polyphenols from green tea stimulated the activity of isolated SIRT1. The quercetin molecule also did this, but an important human quercetin metabolite had the opposite effect. Therefore in intestinal cells, quercetin had no effect on the activity of SIRT1. In experiments with fat cells, both quercetin and a quercetin metabolite were found to change the glucose use in the fat cell. [B]

[edward]

Just take a large dose of Vitamin C and EGCG is great

[mirian]

Ok newbie,

Your reference is merely about green tea not isolated standardized EGCG supplements. There are many components to green tea. Anyone who thinks taking green tea supplements is identical to drinking actual green tea is wrong. Show me somewhere that isolated "EGCG" activates SIRT1. For example, there are also many elements in red wine like quercetin, resveratrol, and gallic acid among others.

Stick to a resveratrol only supplements like Country Life at 100mg per Vcap. NOW uses green tea in their 50mg resveratrol supplement because of wasted space should be at least 100mg of resveratrol per Vcap. Stand alone Resveratrol supplements at under 100mg per capsule is a joke. Stop wasting your money on green tea which has a lot of fluoride like any other non-organic tea.

Green Tea should not be combined with resveratrol regimen's since:

Red wine can help one lose weight. [Health magazine 2005; Aug, p.45-6] Green tea “EGCG” does too, but inhibits the longevity gene Sirtuin 1 (SIRT1). [Betterhumans; 2004, Jun, 28]

It's almost common sense really that green tea's EGCG which is well known for increasing a persons metabolic rate therefore helping them burn more calories and lose weight would be the opposite of CR-Calorie Restriction/resveratrol.

Calorie Restriction slows the metabolic rate by lowering circulating levels of T3 by an unknown mechanism.[Scientific American March 15 2007] Meaning lowers your metabolism like what resveratrol does. Both resveratrol and calorie restriction also raise HDL!

Green Tea only helps one avoid cancer by helping them live longer not in your potential. But, Resveratrol & CR help increase your longevity potential to about 120 years instead of 100 for example and also helps prevent cancer, heart disease, etc. Increases your genetic potential:

Resveratrol showed that it switched hundreds of genes at one time. [Cancer Biology Therapy 3:882-89, 2004]

Give me a Journal reference showing green tea switches hundreds of genes!

Edited by mirian, 18 June 2007 - 07:03 AM.

[woly]

Ok newbie,

Your reference is merely about green tea not isolated standardized EGCG supplements. There are many components to green tea. Anyone who thinks taking green tea supplements is identical to drinking actual green tea is wrong. Show me somewhere that isolated "EGCG" activates SIRT1. For example, there are also many elements in red wine like quercetin, resveratrol, and gallic acid among others.

correct me if im wrong but..
Mech Ageing Dev. 2006 Jul;127(7):618-27.
SIRT1 stimulation by polyphenols is affected by their stability and metabolism.
de Boer VC, de Goffau MC, Arts IC, Hollman PC, Keijer J.

RIKILT-Institute of Food Safety, Wageningen University and Research Centre, Wageningen, The Netherlands.

Silent information regulator two ortholog 1 (SIRT1) is the human ortholog of the yeast sir2 protein; one of the most important regulators of lifespan extension by caloric restriction in several organisms. Dietary polyphenols, abundant in vegetables, fruits, cereals, wine and tea, were reported to stimulate the deacetylase activity of recombinant SIRT1 protein and could therefore be potential regulators of aging associated processes. However, inconsistent data between effects of polyphenols on the recombinant SIRT1 and on in vivo SIRT1, led us to investigate the influence of (1) stability of polyphenols under experimental conditions and (2) metabolism of polyphenols in human HT29 cells, on stimulation of SIRT1. With an improved SIRT1 deacetylation assay we found three new polyphenolic stimulators. Epigallocatechin galate (EGCg, 1.76-fold), epicatechin galate (ECg, 1.85-fold) and myricetin (3.19-fold) stimulated SIRT1 under stabilizing conditions, whereas without stabilization, these polyphenols strongly inhibited SIRT1, probably due to H2O2 formation. Using metabolically active HT29 cells we were able to show that quercetin (a stimulator of recombinant SIRT1) could not stimulate intracellular SIRT1. The major quercetin metabolite in humans, quercetin 3-O-glucuronide, slightly inhibited the recombinant SIRT1 activity which explains the lack of stimulatory action of quercetin in HT29 cells. This study shows that the stimulation of SIRT1 is strongly affected by polyphenol stability and metabolism, therefore extrapolation of in vitro SIRT1 stimulation results to physiological effects should be done with caution.

PMID: 16603228

[mirian]

I wouldn't recommend any non-organic tea source due to the fluoride content.

NOW doesn't extract EGCG from organic tea. Trust me NOW has some decent supplements. But, other companies are better quality. NOW aspires to be Jarrow. I'm always emailing them things they didn't realize. Jarrow's newer resveratrol capsules are 100mg total resveratrol (80mg trans resveratrol per Vcap) I called. You want a alternative to Country life then go with Jarrow:

http://www.iherb.com...1&pid=7918&at=0

I'd stick with what's proven thus far. Organic green tea is just in support a healthy lifestyle. Resveratrol erases most adverse effects of even a poor diet in large enough amounts.

EGCG is just acting to distract people's attention to resveratrol. Resveratrol is our best natural shot for life extension. People who cannot afford large doses of resveratrol is only because they are distracted by a lot of supplements that don't show no potential compared to resveratrol for an increased lifespan.

A Journal shows Resveratrol switches hundreds of genes. Show me where green tea does that. Green tea doesn't improve someone genetic potential just makes one live longer by being free of cancer. Resveratrol increases your genetic potential, prevents Alzheimer’s, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc.

It's actually hard to tell if green tea is all that great because Japanese eat like angels compared to Americans which could explain their higher life expectancy. French on the other hand have a higher fat diet and simply consume resveratrol and still have a higher life expectancy than Americans.

Apparently, resveratrol would even make the ultimate wrinkle cream:

Golden Delicious apples dipped in resveratrol appeared fresh and retained their taste after 75 days at room temperature whereas undipped apples rotted and were unfit for consumption. [J Agric Food Chem 2003; 51:82-89] You dip an apple in EGCG and after 75 days it'll be rotten as well. There's simply no comparison.

Mortality from diseases specifically related to old age (infectious diseases, pneumonia, dementia, etc) increased in all countries except France. [Journal Clinical Epidemiology 57: 203-216, 2004] So, it appears like green tea comes far too short compared to red wine.

It's really not a surprise that resveratrol has the same effect on the body as CR since grapes make resveratrol when under a healthful stress to resist mold. People who are on CR also put a healthful stress on the bodies.

Researchers in the past thought the human genome was rather large but now they found it's merely about 30,000 genes. Yet, a kernel of rice has about 60,000 genes. So, I wouldn't be so hesitant to assume it'll make humans live longer!

Have fun wasting your money. I threw some bottles of NOW EGCG in the trash in the past. Like they say one person's trash is another's treasure. Fluoride inhibits thyroid function which is relatively abundant in all non-organic teas.

[mike250]

http://www.trueprote...cid=25&pid=1368

looks like a good quality green tea extract.

[mirian]

Not sure about True Protein are they GMP ? That one is 500mg with 45% as EGCG making 225 mg per capsule.

NOW's is GMP and very competitive with that being 400mg at 50% EGCG making 200mg per capsule:

http://www.iherb.com...1&pid=1105&at=0

[Shepard]

The logic in this thread is earth-shattering.

[ageless]

I'm getting headaches to go with my weak stomach.

[edward]

Ok, I'm only going to dignify this line of argument with one more post. The abstract that Woly uploaded is from an article that shows that many polyphenols including EGCG can be stabilized by compounds such as Vitamin C and thus activate SIRT under these conditions. I take at least half a gram of vitamin c with my resveratrol, quercetin, green tea, grape seed etcetera polyphenol/related compounds. I am reasonably certain that I am stabilizing any potentially negative polyphenols (especially given the other antioxidants and SOD promoting supplements I also take at the same time). I don't think Green Tea, with all its numerous benefits should be chucked when under the right conditions (which don't appear hard to create) it is very positive.

As far as organic green tea being lower in fluoride content than non organic? I haven't found a single (non marketing related) reference that indicates that. It seems that green tea naturally takes up and stores fluoride. The only way to prevent this would seem to grow the tea in pristine soil that has been analyzed to be free from fluoride and water the plants with non fluoridated water. All organic means is free from artificial pesticides and fertilizers. Personally I don't drink a lot of green tea, I only take standardized supplements so I am not too worried about fluoride content. I drink filtered water and only use fluoride on my teeth a few times a week (I brush with a non fluoridated Xylitol toothpaste most of the time).

Note: Mirian, about the "newbie" comment. Simply because one has only been a member of imminst.org for a few months doesn't mean they have been in the dark their whole life. I have been a Life Extension member for over 10 years, I work in the medical field (currently on the business side) and am currently in school obtaining a medical degree so as to move into the clinical and research side of healthcare. I appologize if my "do your research" comment was a little harsh, perhaps prompting the personal attack.

Edited by edward, 18 June 2007 - 03:53 PM.

[krillin]

NOW aspires to be Jarrow. I'm always emailing them things they didn't realize.

Poor bastards.

[edward]

Yeah those NOW guys are really out of it. Low prices, high quality good customer service, attention to detail, responding to the latest research... etc.

[ageless]

Ok, I'm only going to dignify this line of argument with one more post. The abstract that Woly uploaded is from an article that shows that many polyphenols including EGCG can be stabilized by compounds such as Vitamin C and thus activate SIRT under these conditions. I take at least half a gram of vitamin c with my resveratrol, quercetin, green tea, grape seed etcetera polyphenol/related compounds. I am  reasonably certain that I am stabilizing any potentially negative polyphenols (especially given the other antioxidants and SOD promoting supplements I also take at the same time). I don't think Green Tea, with all its numerous benefits should be chucked when under the right conditions (which don't appear hard to create) it is very positive.

As far as organic green tea being lower in fluoride content than non organic? I haven't found a single (non marketing related) reference that indicates that. It seems that green tea naturally takes up and stores fluoride. The only way to prevent this would seem to grow the tea in pristine soil that has been analyzed to be free from fluoride and water the plants with non fluoridated water. All organic means is free from artificial pesticides and fertilizers. Personally I don't drink a lot of green tea, I only take standardized supplements so I am not too worried about fluoride content. I drink filtered water and only use fluoride on my teeth a few times a week (I brush with a non fluoridated Xylitol toothpaste most of the time).

Note: Mirian, about the "newbie" comment. Simply because one has only been a member of imminst.org for a few months doesn't mean they have been in the dark their whole life. I have been a Life Extension member for over 10 years, I work in the medical field (currently on the business side) and am currently in school obtaining a medical degree so as to move into the clinical and research side of healthcare. I appologize if my "do your research" comment was a little harsh, perhaps prompting the personal attack.

NOW makes a good xylitol toothpaste that I've been meaning to get.

[ageless]

NOW aspires to be Jarrow. I'm always emailing them things they didn't realize.

Poor bastards.

[tung]

[mirian]

I use NOW's Cinnafresh toothpaste as well. Can't beat it for $1.99 on Iherb!

I know, what I said is rather sad but true. When I told NOW that Jarrow makes it a point to try making all ingredients in their supplement non-gmo. Since, then they added this to their website:

http://www.nowfoods....l&item_id=14595

But, as the saying goes actions speaks louder than words.

Please don't be surprised that organic tea might have lower amount of fluoride.

Sorry about the Caps:

ORGANICALLY GROWN FOODS ARE HIGHER IN VIRTALLY ALL HEALTHFUL MINERALS AND LOWER IN VIRTUALLY ALL UNHEALTHY MINERALS ACCORDING TO THE JOURNAL OF
APPLIED NUTRITION (1993):

MAGNESIUM 138% HIGHER

POTASSIUM 125% HIGHER

SILICON 86% HIGHER

SELENIUM 390% HIGHER

ZINC 60% HIGHER

CHROMIUM 78% HIGHER

CONVENTIONALLY GROWN IS HIGHER IN UNHEALTHY MINERALS :

ALUMINUM 40% HIGHER

LEAD 29% HIGHER

MERCURY 25% HIGHER

Edited by mirian, 18 June 2007 - 07:19 PM.

[Shepard]

So, mirian, how often do you actually check out the studies that you talk about? Or even the abstracts? Because, it would be super if you could give us a real reference instead of (SOME RANDOM CLAIM FROM RANDOM SOURCE 1994).

[health_nutty]

So, mirian, how often do you actually check out the studies that you talk about? Or even the abstracts? Because, it would be super if you could give us a real reference instead of (SOME RANDOM CLAIM FROM RANDOM SOURCE 1994).

amen.

[maxwatt]

So, mirian, how often do you actually check out the studies that you talk about? Or even the abstracts? Because, it would be super if you could give us a real reference instead of (SOME RANDOM CLAIM FROM RANDOM SOURCE 1994).

amen.

Me too. While Mirian has some good information, the signal-to-noise-ratio is so low, it gets lost in the static of misinformation and conclusions jumped to.

Mirian, could you stick to ONE claim at a time, with references? And have you ever changed your mind about anything when shown good evidence to the contrary?

[mirian]

Of course, I change my mind when shown evidence to the contrary. But, the references here on EGCG falls a little short on activating SIRT1 for my taste. I think you seemed a little skeptical yourself Maxwatt until establishing specifically a proper formulation for stabilizing EGCG.

I immediately emailed both Jarrow and NOW about the niacinamide problem in their multi's. Trust me I'm all for accurate information. Take my information for what it's worth I don't make up anything I show on here. I have all the paperwork to back each reference up.

The above reference about healthful minerals vs unhealthful minerals from organically grown foods. I got from:

Prescription for Natural Cures Book, authors: Balch MD & Stengler ND, 2004, pages 541 & 546

Edited by mirian, 18 June 2007 - 07:28 PM.

[maxwatt]

Of course, I change my mind when shown eveidence to the contrary. But, the references here on EGCG falls a little short on upregualting SIRT1 for my taste. I think you seemed a little skeptical yourself Maxwatt until establishing specifically a proper formulation for stabilizing EGCG.....

I agree with you on this point. I said you have some good information. One problem with the paper showing polyphenols were stabilized by anti-oxidants is that it was performed in vitro. This is nothing like the conditions in the body where there is much less free oxygen available. Nothing in the study can be used to justify a recommendation for using EGCG or Quercetin with or without anti-oxidants.

[proteomist]

Exactly. It is interesting but not at all germain to in vivo conditions.

One problem with the paper showing polyphenols were stabilized by anti-oxidants is that it was performed in vitro.  This is nothing like the conditions in the body where there is much less free oxygen available.  Nothing in the study can be used to justify a recommendation for using EGCG or Quercetin with or without anti-oxidants.

[mirian]

Speaking of fluoride:

A recent article on Bill Sardi's Knowledge of Health site about dental cavities may just be one of many possible symptoms of vitamin D deficiency:

http://www.knowledge.....alth Agencies,

Fluoride content is lower in organic green tea because no synthetic fertilizer's that contain fluoride are used in organic crops.

Why you might want to avoid teas in general and especially supplements which are concentrated versions:

http://www.mercola.c...ide_thyroid.htm

Edited by mirian, 18 June 2007 - 10:09 PM.

[woly]

NOW makes a good xylitol toothpaste that I've been meaning to get.

sorry to go (even further) off topic but would natures way Periobrite Toothpaste be a better option because its free of Carrageenan?

[mirian]

Where would you buy that. What's the ingredients? That's the one thing I don't like about NOW's Xylitol toothpaste.

[woly]

iherb!
http://www.iherb.com...1&pid=5162&at=0