20 replies to this topic

[nootropicpete1]

amphetamine replacements? thoughts?

Will N-acytyl-L-tyrosine and nicotine gum (maybe also mucuna pruriens) as a more natural way work well for stimulation similar to amphetamines? Or are amphetamines much more complex then just working on the dopamine reward system? Thanks.

[Mixter]

Tried n-acetyl-tyrosine (500-1000mg) taken in the morning on a long learning day, no dramatic effect for me. So it should be at least an individual varying thing. Ergots (vasodilators) are something totally different, but for some (well, in my subjective experience) they help mimic a state of being in very good shape exercise-wise with the added learning/motivation increase.

Actually, what about sane use of ephedrine, e.g. at a mild 20-30mg/day threshold? Is that at least safer and healthier than amphetamines? Really, I'm curious, I don't know, but after all, the herb itself has a long tradition and as far as I understood the adverse and lethal effects occur mainly due to abuse/overdose?


For some less practical daydreaming: If you're unfamiliar with hedonisticimperative.com, it makes an interesting (LONG) read, going beyond pure nootropics (cognition-enhancers) to enhancing other aspects; there's really no clear cut border between learning, reward and emotions, so controlling those aspects holistically might be promising for enhancement beyond AD(H)D.

Hedonistic Imperative bets on future, safer/nonaddictive derivates of MDMA, citing two existing examples of research drugs, PMMA and TDIQ. That sounds promising, IF it will be safe and effective enough in comparison to existing stimulants. Personally, I don't know if we just run a bottleneck of chatoic-evolutionary brain layout with any of today's available approaches, which can't be tweaked indefinitely by treating it as if it were "soup" instead of the "circuitry" it is.

[ajnast4r]

MDMA.

[shamus]

MDMA.

GUUUURN!!!


[thumb]

[jackinbox]

Modafinil and Adrafinil. To some extend, maybe phenylpiracetam.

[jdog]

What are the specific effects you're looking to reproduce?

[fast turtle]

Any dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.

[medievil]

phenotropil

[graatch]

Amantadine (a dopamine agonist) has some good press, at low doses pre-side effects. Currently I am interested in the use of MAO drugs for attention deficit disorder.

Consider picking up "Delivered From Distraction", by Hallowell.

You need to consider that if your mood is indeed depressed as indicated in the other post (though you claim otherwise), it can and will have severe effect upon cognitive functions, such as concentration.

I don't have the patience to read through that other thread -- but I can direct you to the "inattentive ADD" thread here started by orangish for some information I posted.

Ask yourself: what am I not doing? Exercising? Socializing? Eating my greens?

What is your problem with amphetamine-type drugs? Don't like the notion of neurotoxicity? Got too tolerant to a hypomanic effect? Got too tolerant to the concentrative effect?

[superdopa]

Yeah, i'm in the same boat. What i have found most effective is deprenyl and L-tyrosine along with caffeine. Sometimes i throw in a mild stimulant such as adrafinil or pseudoephedrine (not really a nootropic but definitely has an energizing effect on me). Deprenyl is tricky because for me anyway in high doses it caused me to get groggy and have severe mind fog. Although when i took it at low dose (1 mg twice a day for a bout 4 days) it built up this nice effect that when mixed with the above-mentioned supplements gave me an almost amphetamine like feeling. This of course is all in the context in preparing for an exam or doing a huge research project, not in the context of a party-drug.

From a neurotransmitter perspective both deprenyl, L-tyrosine and most stimulants work on the dopamergic systems, similar to amphetamines. This is what interested me in this combination in the first place. Though like most things, you can get develop a resistance to it.

I recently tried nicotine and found it pretty effective too, pretty addictive though. I havent really gotten the chance to try it with deprenyl and tyrosine though, maybe something interesting to try.

[dopamine]

Bupropion is also worthy of consideration as a DA/NE uptake inhibitor, though the effects, like deprenyl, tend to build over time. If "amphetamine-like" substances must act acutely, there aren't many options other than the typical "legal stims" i.e. ephedrine, caffeine, yohimbine, etc. There is great possibility in combining nootropic substances with typical stimulants in creating a unique type of stimulation, unique from the effects of any one of the substances alone.

[graatch]

I wonder how effective EMSAM patch might prove in this (attention) for some people, alone

[superdopa]

I tried the deprenyl/PEA combo and I wasn't really that impressed. It definitely stimulated me but more in a foggy, spacy "i wanna sit here and stare at the wall" feeling. Nothing like the get-shit-done feeling of amphetamines. I tried doses ranging from 50-250 mg (250 mg was wayy too much for me). I've had the opportunity to try nicotine with deprenyl and it's pretty much the best combo i've tried so far.

Edited by superdopa, 03 January 2008 - 11:11 AM.

[missminni]

When driving back from Florida, I was falling asleep at that wheel after two hours of driving.
I bought a product from a GNC store called Energel and I was amazed at
how effective it was. Within 10 minutes of taking two (they are gel caps) I was wide awake, alert and
not yawning. I never got jittery or anxious from it either. The effects last for a couple of hours.
As soon as I would start to yawn and feel my eyes starting to close, I would take two more
and be wide awake and alert within moments.
It got me through the trip.

The ingredients are:
Iodine (as kelp) 37.5 mcg
Ginger Root Extract 4:1 (Zingiber officinale) 25 mg
Mustard Seed Powder (Sinapsis alba) 75 mg
Meadowsweet Powder (Filpendula ulmaria) 100 mg
Guarana Seed Extract (Paulinia cupana) 250 mg
Schisandra Extract 6:1 (Shcisandra chineses) 8.3 mg
Indian Turmeric Extract 10:1 (Curcuma longa) 4 mg
Siberian Ginsing Powder 25 mg

Edited by missminni, 03 January 2008 - 05:42 PM.

[J_Garrett]

What about amineptine.

If they still make it.

[edward]

What about amineptine.

If they still make it.

I tried to find this product a while back, I searched and searched, emailed and called, asked physicians, but apparently it had been taken off the market everywhere despite many people showing benefits with regards to depression and other disorders... Apparently the drug felt too good and caused intense orgasms or something so horrendous that most governments simply found it something that right minded citizens shouldn't have (yes I'm exaggerating but not by much).

Anyways anyone know where to find this?

amineptine/survector

[jackinbox]

You have to be careful with PEA + deprenyl. I had very high blood pressure and felt dizzy when I tried it. It was like being on drugs and thought about going to the hospital. Hopefully, the PEA half-life is short and it didn't last more than an hour.

[jackinbox]

If something is too much fun, you can be sure it will be retired from the market. That's one of the reason we end up we psychoactive drugs that sucks like SSRIs. If something work well, there is pretty good chance that if you take more of it, it will work even better. Damn, I hate the war on drugs. Because of that, it's almost impossible to do research on molecule like cannabinoids.

Amineptine is scheduled in Canada because of risk of dependance and hepatitis. From what I have read, the evidence are not overwhelming but I didn't digg to much. Anyway, there is no hope I could get it. Even if custom synthesis was possible, it would be illegal to import.

[variance]

i've tried everything.
i mean everything before finally trying to go back to a GP instead of a Psych this time (the quack psych one gave me wellbutrin and SSRIs that nearly drove me to suicide) and brought my diagnosis from when i was 8. (I was diagnosed with severe ADD at a early age but i was still performing well enough that my naturopathic believing teachers didnt think i needed it.) around high school when i stopped caring about school everything went down hell and went further in college

I tried to cope with it every possible way.

The following have been tried all individually (and combined in stacks) for a trial of 1 - 2 weeks by me at some point last couple of years.

-Oxiracetam/Aniracetam/nefiracetam/Phenylpiracetam and one more obscure rare one that seems to be popular around here that i can't recall.
- Alpha GPC, Choline-CDP
-Deprenyl (both low dose, and high dose)
-PL carnitine Al Carnintine with AOR R(+)-ALA
-Modafinil
-Wellbutrin XL / SR by itself and in combination with Lexapro
-Piribedil
-Tianeptine
-sulbutiamine
-AOR orthomind
-Deprenyl + PEA (its like all the horrrrible aspects of adderall and none of the good ones with the half-life of cocaine.)
-Idebenone
-pyritinol
-ritalin (IR)
-Adderall XR and IR


also been on a healthy clean diet, complex carbs, lean protein. (clean bodybuilding diet)
went up from 5'6 @ 110lb to at my prime 158lb with 12% bodyfat. I've sinced gotten a little lax with my calories + combined with the adderall i went through before the vyvanse have dropped down to 141lb to roughly 9 - 10 % bodyfat (pinch caliper, 3 site calculation)

Supplemented daily with AOR Orthocore, Nordic Naturals EPA Max/Complete.
was doing exclusively weightlifting then quit and went into competitive thai boxing and escrima.

The above is to establish that I've spent tons of $$$ and time self-treating my ADD and twice went to the doctors (first one nearly killed me and drove me to self-destruct my academic career. second one was the charm)
I won't review each substance unless requested as this thread is about effective amphetamine substitutes.

I will not say they are all junk because that is simply not true.
Many of them live of to their claims, Some of them do not, and some of them were overhyped as to the actual effect and fall short but still have value depending on the urpose.

Suffice it to say,
None of them have effected the change in my life for the better than the extended release D-Amphetamine from vyvanse. (may have to switch to dexedrine spansules cuz of $$$. )
None of the peripheral rush or anxiety from the L-Amphetamine isomer in Adderall IR/XR.
I can read, do research and do everything I need to do... and I'm like anxiety free
I haven't felt like this as long as I can remember. Confident, assertive, mostly anxiety free, I even do cold pickups without being drunk or on some kind of "social lubricant". (actually.. downside of the drug. when its active. it ruins alcohl pretty badly)
but when its "off" you barely notice it go down.

Just positive energy and motivation that lasts.
Couple months now, no tolerance increase.
I've increased extra Mg supplementation to compensate for the extra Mg2+ that amphetamine appears to consume (altering Ca/Mg levels in the brain by increasing Ca via consuming Mg)

I continue to supplement well and exercise. (Terrific habits to have... and its not always the destination but the journey)

Long ramble. yes.
my point is there is no comparable replacement for amphetamines. especially pure D-Amphetamine in therapeutic time-released forms.
Nothing legal comes close.
Period.

Yes, there is indication of a likely shorter life span. however at therapeutic levels and given the amount of uncontrolled environmental variables
with a healthy diet/exercise it should be negligible if you are a true add sufferer.

Note this is my own personal view of what I'll be paying for being on this.

I'd rather spend my next 40 - 50 years (if thats all i have left) happy, effective, productive, accomplished, social with a higher quality of life

then 60 or 70 years (speaking if thats how much i'd gain by not taking it at all, not saying this is accurate at all) forcing myself from one thing to another with caffeine, not being motivated to do anything, not being able to read or focus unless i'm hyperfocusing, being antisocial and aloof, impulsive and etc.

[edward]

Variance,

I am very interested in your experience, I looked back at your posts and it does appear that you have tried a lot of things (and you seem, based on the quality of your posts much more "together" now) so I am intrigued as to why Vyvanse is so much different than Adderall or some combo of Deprenyl and Modafinil (currently I take low dose deprenyl and modafinil)

My experience with Adderall had the following side effects:
heart palpatations
anxiety
vasoconstriction (including cold feet/hands and ahem limp extremities)

Does Vyvanase give you any of the above side effects?

What was wrong with Deprenyl in your opinion? Piracetam?

i've tried everything.
i mean everything before finally trying to go back to a GP instead of a Psych this time (the quack psych one gave me wellbutrin and SSRIs that nearly drove me to suicide) and brought my diagnosis from when i was 8. (I was diagnosed with severe ADD at a early age but i was still performing well enough that my naturopathic believing teachers didnt think i needed it.) around high school when i stopped caring about school everything went down hell and went further in college

I tried to cope with it every possible way.

The following have been tried all individually (and combined in stacks) for a trial of 1 - 2 weeks by me at some point last couple of years.

-Oxiracetam/Aniracetam/nefiracetam/Phenylpiracetam and one more obscure rare one that seems to be popular around here that i can't recall.
- Alpha GPC, Choline-CDP
-Deprenyl (both low dose, and high dose)
-PL carnitine Al Carnintine with AOR R(+)-ALA
-Modafinil
-Wellbutrin XL / SR by itself and in combination with Lexapro
-Piribedil
-Tianeptine
-sulbutiamine
-AOR orthomind
-Deprenyl + PEA (its like all the horrrrible aspects of adderall and none of the good ones with the half-life of cocaine.)
-Idebenone
-pyritinol
-ritalin (IR)
-Adderall XR and IR


also been on a healthy clean diet, complex carbs, lean protein. (clean bodybuilding diet)
went up from 5'6 @ 110lb to at my prime 158lb with 12% bodyfat. I've sinced gotten a little lax with my calories + combined with the adderall i went through before the vyvanse have dropped down to 141lb to roughly 9 - 10 % bodyfat (pinch caliper, 3 site calculation)

Supplemented daily with AOR Orthocore, Nordic Naturals EPA Max/Complete.
was doing exclusively weightlifting then quit and went into competitive thai boxing and escrima.

The above is to establish that I've spent tons of $$$ and time self-treating my ADD and twice went to the doctors (first one nearly killed me and drove me to self-destruct my academic career. second one was the charm)
I won't review each substance unless requested as this thread is about effective amphetamine substitutes.

I will not say they are all junk because that is simply not true.
Many of them live of to their claims, Some of them do not, and some of them were overhyped as to the actual effect and fall short but still have value depending on the urpose.

Suffice it to say,
None of them have effected the change in my life for the better than the extended release D-Amphetamine from vyvanse. (may have to switch to dexedrine spansules cuz of $$$. )
None of the peripheral rush or anxiety from the L-Amphetamine isomer in Adderall IR/XR.
I can read, do research and do everything I need to do... and I'm like anxiety free
I haven't felt like this as long as I can remember. Confident, assertive, mostly anxiety free, I even do cold pickups without being drunk or on some kind of "social lubricant". (actually.. downside of the drug. when its active. it ruins alcohl pretty badly)
but when its "off" you barely notice it go down.

Just positive energy and motivation that lasts.
Couple months now, no tolerance increase.
I've increased extra Mg supplementation to compensate for the extra Mg2+ that amphetamine appears to consume (altering Ca/Mg levels in the brain by increasing Ca via consuming Mg)

I continue to supplement well and exercise. (Terrific habits to have... and its not always the destination but the journey)

Long ramble. yes.
my point is there is no comparable replacement for amphetamines. especially pure D-Amphetamine in therapeutic time-released forms.
Nothing legal comes close.
Period.

Yes, there is indication of a likely shorter life span. however at therapeutic levels and given the amount of uncontrolled environmental variables
with a healthy diet/exercise it should be negligible if you are a true add sufferer.

Note this is my own personal view of what I'll be paying for being on this.

I'd rather spend my next 40 - 50 years (if thats all i have left) happy, effective, productive, accomplished, social with a higher quality of life

then 60 or 70 years (speaking if thats how much i'd gain by not taking it at all, not saying this is accurate at all) forcing myself from one thing to another with caffeine, not being motivated to do anything, not being able to read or focus unless i'm hyperfocusing, being antisocial and aloof, impulsive and etc.

Edited by edward, 10 April 2008 - 10:08 PM.