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Evolution And Its Implications For Aging...


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 07 September 2002 - 02:09 AM


Evolution and its Implications for Aging, Death and the Extension of the Human Life Span.

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By John Schloendorn

Abstract:
This article covers both biologic and human cultural evolution. A thorough introduction to evolutionary models is included that should make the text readable without much previous knowledge. Reference to scientific literature is included wherever possible.
The processes underlying evolution (replication, mutation, selection) make it behave like a designer that optimizes the performance of the replicating unit in the presently given environment.
In biologic evolution, the replicating unit is identified as the gene. The optimization of humans’ ability to promote their genes does not necessarily comply with our personal well being and happiness. A well suited example is the evolution of aging and death. They are genetically advantageous, yet direly opposed to all value of the individual person.
In human cultural evolution, the replicating unit is identified as the meme. Its partial independence of and interaction with the gene are recognized.
Humanity’s failure to consider the problem of death and to counteract it is explained as a by-product of both replicators’ optimization, as strongly supported by contemporary psychological research. This may account for the wide spread indifference and opposition to the possibilities of life span extension even in the face of growing evidence for its feasibility. To acquire the resources necessary for serious life extension research, we are called for memetically tailored advertisement strategies. A second, very different option that circumvents this problem is also discussed.

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 07 September 2002 - 02:12 AM

Table of contents:

Part I: What is evolution ?
Entropy
Qualifying entropy
Evolution at work
The evolutionary mechanism

Part II: The evolution of life and death
The beginning
The soup
Catalysts
Autocatalysis and replicators
The arms race
RNA
Division of labor
Genes and proteins
Structure
Genes: The relationship of DNA and protein
Genetic coevolution
Sex
Sexual reproduction
An exercise in vocabulary
Higher organization
Cells
Multicellulars
Death
What is death ?
The genetic advantage of somatic death
Support from biology
And what about humans ?
On the feasibility of life extension

Part III: The evolution of society and individuality
Memetic evolution
Replication
Mutation
Selection
Gene-Meme Coevolution
Meme-Meme Coevolution
The power of memes
Sexual selection
Imitation as our peacock feather
Experimental support
Tail feathers today
The ultimate memeplex
Selfplex activities
Concluding thougths
Death memetics
The purpose of this chapter
The management of terror
Experimental support
The power of terror management
Triple trouble
A way out

Epilogue
Mortal design in body and mind
On the long run
Alternatives to replication and mutation
Evolution evolves


Full Text

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#3 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 September 2002 - 01:10 PM

I find this work to be very well organized and comprehensive. In fact the scope of it alone is both daunting and exciting. I thoroughly enjoy reading the various aspects of genetic evolutionary theory expounded upon within whether I agree with every proposition or not. The material is presented in an informative and reasonably objective fashion.

In fact I would like to post this to my site on Human Selection if I may John.

I do however disagree on the implied *progressive* aspect of Evolution. I think that is a subtle introduction of the Intelligent Design Scenario. The alternative, that so many find so disturbing is that the path from simplicity to complexity is the result of trial and error on a massive scale determined by the success of adaptive applications to specific environmental conditions.

Beware of the *qualitative* implications of evolution as progress, when in fact the process may simply be coincidence and we are trying to find purpose in (read it into) that process.

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#4 zau

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 05:31 PM

Thanks a lot for the plenty compliments.

Bruce:
In fact this is the first big article on life extension that I have written so far. Of course I shall continue to write, but I’m still undecided on what next. At any rate, I’m glad to have found the Immortality Institute and will certainly stay in contact.

Lazarus:
I feel very much honored by your request to post my article and gladly approve it. (I hope that I am not violating any copyright appointments of the Immortality Institute.)

I’d very much like to take a look at your site. What’s the address ?

It has never been my intention to read a purpose of any kind into the evolutionary process. (How could anyone who is really into this topic ?) As for progress, I agree that I have silently taken for granted that in complex environments, complex patterns tend to outwit simple patterns. I ought to have made it more explicit that evolution will imply progress only as long as this is so.

#5 Bruce Klein

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 05:43 PM

(I hope that I am not violating any copyright appointments of the Immortality Institute.)

John, I think you're safe heh


And as an aside.. I can see where Laz is coming from on the part Intelligent Design, however, in my reading the thought never crossed my mind. Now, read a little Frank Tipler or Ed O. Wilson.. and that's another story.

#6 Lazarus Long

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 12:05 AM

I have a Yahoo Group that is focused on the concept of Human Selection as a phenomenon that is usurping the Natural Selection process. I see groups such as we are attempting to create here in this forum, as well as too numerous examples of human interaction in the environment at large to delineate here as evidence in support of this. I would love your input and thanks for the permission to post.

The site is Human Selection

The invitation is open to all but I again encourage the participation of serious students of Evolutionary Theory. And BJ I happen to agree about E.O. Wilson's surreptitious argument for intelligent design but that is precisely because he is trying to imply the idea of Human Selection is actually a part of Natural Selection without acknowledging that the process of Human Selection is distinguishable from simple Artificial Selection.

We are applying both intelligent and stupid design elements into the selection process.

Again Great article!

#7 caliban

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Posted 27 September 2002 - 12:59 AM

Hello John!

Glad you took the advice and found your way here.

I might be biased, but to me this is the best piece this month and a worthy introduction to the writers competition. I find your article sound in its reasoning, interesting in its ambition, adequately researched and cited, original where a lot has been written and very approachable in style. (the last part has gotten a bit jerky though, but that might just be me.)

That being said, I do disagree with some of your main points:

- I do not thing that Kirkwoods disposable soma theory, that you are advancing is ultimately sound. (as a small starter: Gavrilov/Gavrilova - Evolutionary Theories of Aging and Longevity)

- I do not think that there is a direct link between terror suppression memes and skepticism about life extension. To me, the memetics of behaviorism are a bit dubious.

- I have problems with the notion that it might be the best way to simply do basic research with no progressive intention. Especially when you state

Luckily, the current amount of aging research is huge and growing.

a statement that I find hard to take on board. How many Max-Plank Istitutes for aging are there in Germany again? Zilch?

It bears credit to your article that I cannot elaborate any of these points without going of at a tangent bigtime.

Once again: a very good piece and I truly hope that you will continue to share your thoughts on this and other topics with this forum and with the mailinglist "back home"!

Best wishes

caliban

#8 michaelroyames

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Posted 29 September 2002 - 08:56 PM

John,

Thank you for this excellent submission. It contained several interesting viewpoints that I had not heard of before. Despite the occasional grammatical errors and language mistakes, I rated your piece the highest. Good ideas. Good writing.

Michael Roy Ames.

#9 chestnut

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Posted 01 October 2002 - 03:15 AM

I was very impressed by the level of research and effort spent in writing this piece. Thank you for taking so much time to present such an informative piece and allowing us to indulge in this effort.

#10 ocsrazor

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 01:39 AM

Hi John,

This piece is an excellent start on organizing this information and I would very much like to see you refine it further. I'm going to play the role of vicious editor, but please don't take offense, because these are ideas I very much want to see refined and presented to the general public. The areas you are discussings are of great interest to me and are things I have been thinking about for many years, There are a few factual errors in the piece - some are easily correctable, but some will require deeper study. Feel free to question me on any of the points made here.

In the first part you are using descriptions of evolution, entropy, and energy that are a little out of date.

You have hit on a very common misconception that thermodynamic entropy is the same as informatic entropy. They are related but they are two very different entities. Thermodynamic entropy describes a quantifiable abstraction (free energy) that can be neither created nor destroyed and tends to be maximized in the universe, informatic entropy describes a quantity (disorganization) that can be synthesized or destroyed and tends to be minimized in the universe. Both Wiener and Shannon stressed this point very heavily in their books on communications theory and these ideas are at the core of modern information theory.

In the past twenty years there has been a great deal of research on complex and emergent systems that has shown that evolution is not simply based on selection. There appears to be a deep souce of order that occurs because of the particular fundamental constants of our universe. It is the functioning of selection in conjuction with these ordering principles that produces the complexity we see in dissipative structures such as lifeforms.

Multicellular organisms arose from colonies of identical cells acting in concert. The grouping of cells provided for resouce sharing. Cell type specialization was a later phenomenon that further cemented the dominance of multicellular organisms, but it was not the driving force for multicellularity.

All multicellulars are not mortal in the way you have described. That is a great deal of evidence to suggest there is no fixed lifespan for creatures such as sharks, turtles, etc. The type of mortality you describe is consistent with fixed sized creatures such as ourselves though, who have a roughly defined trajectory to their lifespan. Also, there are multicellulars that are effectively immortal (hydra, planaria) although they are on the low end of the complexity scale.

To this day, there still is no convincing proof that aging is programmed or that there is a fixed lifespan in humans (the trajectory can be lengethened), or most multicellular species for that matter. Rapidly induced aging as you described in salmon is a notable exception. The only aspect of human aging that appears to be programmed is female menopause. All other aspects of human aging appear to be decay processes, and are not induced, but occur due to a lack of commitment of resources (a scarce resource problem where energy is expended in favor of breeding instead of long survival).

Telomeres are only one small aspect of human aging, and are likely not a primary cause of senescence (BTW, the Fossel book is a very poor source of information on this subject, see below for much better refs) Current research has shown that telomere shortening likely affects only the oldest old, other decay mechanisms likely get the majority of us long before our telomeres get too short.

Blind imitation is of course, as you point out, dangerously unstable for a species, and is usually selected against. This is not the likely reason that other primates do not have the same mental abilities that we do. The mutation events that produced our large brains occurred over a very short time frame with a minimum of genetic change, but they are a dramatic departure in the dynamics of embryologic development for a primate. This type of change is an extremely dangerous evolutionary experiment and probably acted as a difficult gate for other primates to pass.

While you talk about imitation, you are really describing the general process of modeling the outside world, which provides a HUGE selective advantage, and the reason that humans spend so much energy maintaining large brains. Imitiation just barely scratches the surface of the capabilities larger brains afforded - spatial manipulation of models internally, long range planning, social organization, etc., but you are on the right track that efficient passage of information is a key to our collective species intelligence.

As a neurobiologist, I am highly skeptical that single cell processes are in any way fundamentally responsible for such a complex behavior such as imitation, but I look forward to following up on the references.

It is not the imitators who are the most attractive people, it is the communicators, those that can pass their information most effectively, those that cause others to imitate them.

In your epilogue you imply that evolution is a design process. As I think Laz pointed out this would imply a designer. Maybe another word would be appropriate. Also you say that humans were designed to be mortal, where it is far more likely that our mortality is simply a side effect of our particular mode of reproduction (restating again, there is no proof for programmed aging) Evolution does not design, it selects patterns from a particular state space.

The immune system, cell replication, and DNA repair aren't shut down, they malfunction.

There are few works you really should take a look at in order to complete your argument. These include:

Evolutionary Biology of Aging - Michael Rose (and anything he has published in the scientific literature, he is one of the few people in the world who has a truly global perspective on the evoltuion of aging)

Biology of Aging - Robert Arking

All three of Stuart Kauffman's books - The Origins of Order, At Home in The Universe, and Investigations

Three of the books of Tom Stonier - Information And The Internal Structure Of The Universe, Beyond Information: The Natural History Of Intelligence, and Information And Meaning: An Evolutionary Perspective

The Touchstone of Life - Werner Lowenstein

Best Stuff,
Peter

#11 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 05:03 AM

Multicellular organisms arose from colonies of identical cells acting in concert. The grouping of cells provided for resource sharing. Cell type specialization was a later phenomenon that further cemented the dominance of multicellular organisms, but it was not the driving force for multicellularity.


Peter I beg to differ somewhat with this hypothesis as there is also the example of symbiotic convergence of different species of single celled organisms acting in concert and coming to share genetic information. Cyanobacteria in plants lead to and are incorporated still into plant genetics for chlorophyll production and mitochondria. It is not only an example of merged species that have retained their own unique genes in plants & animals but one that provided a significant advantage both for the energy needs of complex multicellular differentiation & organization and as the means of “sudden acquisition” of necessary competitive characteristics without the necessity of drastic mutation.

http://www.ucmp.berk...cyanointro.html

The other great contribution of the cyanobacteria is the origin of plants. The chloroplast with which plants make food for themselves is actually a cyanobacterium living within the plant's cells. Sometime in the late Proterozoic, or in the early Cambrian, cyanobacteria began to take up residence within certain eukaryote cells, making food for the eukaryote host in return for a home. This event is known as endosymbiosis, and is also the origin of the eukaryotic mitochondrion.


Yes the process you describe also takes place and may have been more common as single celled organisms began to assemble into larger "colony" like formation with subtle differentiation though painstakingly slow and error prone mutation that form cellular variation and shared function but the process of symbiotically adapting was also occurring all the while and this too even occurs at the most basic level through the sharing of genetic information across species limits with plasmids. And it was this that allowed some species to adopt and adapt a characteristic that was actually the advantageous mutation of a different species. We see this most often today in the rapid ability of many pathogens to "acquire" resistance from common bacteria like staphylococcus while not in themselves actually a member of that species.

The point is that this capacity to merge abilities and benefit through specialization of cellular role predicated upon symbiosis is also an important reason that multicellular organization could rapidly evolve by improving the odds on "Random Mutation” and Natural Selection and basically offsetting specific species weakness through cooperative synergy. If my strength offsets your weakness and visa versa then together we comprise a significantly more powerful species to our adversaries especially if we can add a mutually beneficial behavior and not just externally defensive/offensive ones (like sharing sustenance) and over time our separate characteristics are lost as the genes merge to combine what were different species into one species with cellular differentiation.

Of much of the rest we substantively agree but on one other subtle point of evolution regarding the brain I would love to have a serious discussion with you sometime. I argue the mutation in our brains occurred as a mutation of a combined characteristic that we generally share with other primates but that in proto-humans was already specialized more so and we have fossil evidence of this “prelinguistic” specialization. The basic oral structure for even our most distant hominid ancestors (now 4+ million years ago)was actually very similar to our own and one of the specific characteristics a paleontologist studies to confirm a true hominid ancestor. My hypothesis is that we separately evolved a parroting trait not too dissimilar to say a howler monkey but took this characteristic to a higher degree of adaptive advantage because it fit into our great ape social behaviors.

This is the proto-linguistic phase and the behavior was more associated with mimicry of predator/prey during our predator-scavenger period because we could pretend to be a larger animal to drive off competing species and pretend to be a smaller animal to draw (animal calling) prey to our hominid packs. But as the pack behaviors demanded complex social organization the verbal sounds coincided with the earliest protolanguage of the hunt, the whistle/click language, that begins true syntactic/lexicon linguistic organization and then coincidentally we began selecting for the intelligence among the pack that demonstrated this communicative ability because it provided tremendous survival advantages tot eh entire group. This accelerated the adaptation along with possibly naturally occurring mutations to the brain that may have been involved with the divergence and tremendous advantage Cro-Magnon seems to exhibit over Neanderthal.

In other words I am saying it was the language centers that not only mutated but then in turn enhance the mutation by a sort of self applied intelligent choice that begins memetic evolution. Not a simplistic “blind imitation” but “intelligent & intentional” imitation and not simple parroting but parroting (specific imitation) for a social species that was already communicating (nonverbally) but lacking the organized tools for accomplishing this.

Imitation just barely scratches the surface of the capabilities larger brains afforded - spatial manipulation of models internally, long range planning, social organization, etc., but you are on the right track that efficient passage of information is a key to our collective species intelligence.


So in this proposed model there is a synergistic relationship of three things, a previously evolved parroting ability, cognitive social behavior, and a mutation to the centers of the brain that improves communicative skills dramatically, which in turn leads to the development of a conceptual form of evolution we now call memetics and previously was only recognized as “Oral Culture” and I suggest the evidence of tool making indicates a logical necessity for there having been a more organized mentor/apprentice social structure predicated on evolving language skills that successively granted advantage to each generation through an accumulation of knowledge, skills and supporting social structure.

As this memetic/genetic synthesis of evolution then goes forward it creates a kind of applied eugenics for the characteristics we are discussing to get socially codified genetically as a consequence of the ability to become and maintain alpha status among the pack and later these characteristics begins to coalesce around tribal/clan definitions that are reinforced as proto-culture loosely linked as “linguistic identification” but superimposed on genotypic expressions that are associated with “tribal/clan racial characteristics.”

I suggest this as why ethnicity still identifies both physiology AND language as primary to cultural identification and also why the advent of modern communication is so viscerally threatening to many people still.

I have simplified this to get it out in a post but I want to suggest that memetic evolution works “through language” to alter the paradigms for “selection” and increases the desirability of intelligence for a species like ours that organizes around hierarchal social structures.

In other words we intentionally and intelligently have been selecting for better cerebral capacity for perhaps millions of years through the almost instinctive advantage this represents to our type of species. We didn’t do so because of some “Intelligent Design,” (though in more recent times we create memetic paradigms that do possess this quality) we did it because of specific and recognized advantage in relation to combined social and provider skills for at first the pack and then later around hunter/hearth organization as we became early sedentary.

The evolution of language actually shows a remarkable divergence around this period as distinct linguistic registers for male/female behavioral models seem to develop between these mutually interdependent but functionally separate roles and is seen as still vestigial in language today with a variety of subtle grammatical forms, gender in language for example and formal informal dialects.

The rest as they say is history.

#12 immortalitysystems.com

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 05:37 AM

Dear Mr. John Schloendorn,

reading your article was todays highlight, THANK YOU!

Alfred Schickentanz

#13 ocsrazor

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 07:36 AM

Hi Laz,

The point you raise with cyanobacteria is actually a completely separate one that deals with the transition from prokaryote to eukaryote cells and really doesn't have any bearing on the formation of multicellular organisms. The engulfment of the organisms that became mitochondria and chloroplasts predates the formation of multicellular organisms by a huge expanse of time and is not a a good metaphor for what happened in the transition from single cells to multicelled organisms. If multicellular organisms had formed from multiple species of single cells, even closely related ones, our genes or cell structures would bear the markers of this merger. No such markers exist. This is much more than just a hypothesis, but is the fact driven consensus of the molecular evolutionary biologists, based on the fossil record and the existing species that bear the living record of this transition. All the evidence indicates single colony forming species that slowly evolve higher degrees of cellular specialization. Also, eukaryotes are notoriously touchy about sharing genetic information between species, they have evolved specific defenses against this.

More on the rest tommorrow,
Peter

#14 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 12:17 PM

The engulfment of the organisms that became mitochondria and chloroplasts predates the formation of multicellular organisms by a huge expanse of time and is not a a good metaphor for what happened in the transition from single cells to multicelled organisms. If multicellular organisms had formed from multiple species of single cells, even closely related ones, our genes or cell structures would bear the markers of this merger. No such markers exist.


Actually one such marker clearly does exist; Mitohondrial DNA. But aside from that the symbiosis of these two species create both a physical advantage that fosters the subsequent cellular differentiation process by dramatically increasing the energy production ability of the cell to offset the needs of other cell to specialize for function. In other words this symbiosis makes "possible" the latter mulitcellular evolution that take that cumulative colony building behavior and catalyzes the possible mutations.

This would explain why multicellular differentiation appears to "explode" into the fossil record and is NOT seen to appear as one single organism adapting and dominating a niche and then simply remaining successful. We see divergent evolution immediately as a consequence of advent of multicellular organization. We see convergent evolution of competing species (a few million years) not long after that.

Also there is a second aspect that can be shown to have developed along side the "Standard Model” of Natural selection. And this symbiosis is "behavioral while you are correct that mitochondrial DNA is "unique" in this respect of being clearly identifiable and distinct genetic what they clearly foster the pathway into creating are entire phyla of plant species that begin to adapt through an alternative strategy of strict competition and this is by selective competition and behavioral symbiosis. we still see this in the myriad of ways plants have adapted to take advantage of animal motility for their own propagation including fruit bearing, grappling, pollination through so many strategies the mind boggles.

Example: http://www.nature.co.../030519-13.html

Properly called Armorphophallus titanum, the blue whale of botany comes from the rainforests of western Sumatra, Indonesia. It was discovered in 1878 by the Florentine botanist Odoardo Beccari. He sent the seeds to Kew Royal Botanical Gardens in London, where the first cultivated specimen flowered in 1889. Famously, three blooms appeared at Kew last year.

Hothouse Titan Arums rarely flower, but when they do, they are hard to ignore. The colossal lily-shaped blooms smell of rotting flesh - hence the plant's nickname 'the corpse flower'. By mimicking a carcass in decay, the brownish flowers attract insects that deposit their eggs inside the plant, spreading its pollen in the process.
Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2003


Yes they resist this but they also do so by virtue of the success of having violated it and Cyanobacterium clearly are forerunners all evolution for it was their behavior as a species that provided the
"terraformation" of Earth into a less hostile environment.

Now let me make sure I am clear on this point, I do not disagree with anything that you have said about the evolution of multicellualrization, but what I am suggesting is that not only was there more than one method for this process (and the resulting evidence does supports this) and second there existed a dynamic relationship between the two processes that altered evolution on earth by dramatically improving the ability to adapt and survive mutation. More importantly we still see this primitive form of gene sharing as I suggested in two distinct environmental models, bacterial adaptive sexuality, and viral independence as a consequence of self replicating genes that are only quasi alive.

what is important in the second part is that the bacterial phage characteristics of viruses alter the fundamental mechanism of evolution by increasing the rate AND specificity of mutation, increasing the "odds" of successful adaptation to environmental conditions.

Still an excruciatingly slow process by human standards but qualitatively as distinct for a "rate" of change as say compare a snail and spaceship. In fact we are beginning to adapt the process in a recent breakthrough utilizing viral transcription for a successful gene insertion in adult mammals.

BTW, (though off topic) this little noticed development belongs in its own thread as it heralds a big step forward if confirmed and then refined into being able to insert characteristics genetically that we find desirable in the future.

http://story.news.ya...me/hearing_loss

Excerpt:
For the reported study, Raphael and colleagues worked with a gene called "Math1," which must be active for a fetus to develop the initial supply of hair cells. In a surgical procedure, they squirted a solution containing Math1 genes into cochleas of adult guinea pigs. The genes had been placed inside viruses, which acted like shuttles to get the genes into the animals' cells.

One and two months later, the researchers examined the cochleas of 14 treated animals. All showed immature hair cells, usually between 25 and 50. Apparently, the treatment had transformed some non-sensory cells into hair cells, Raphael said.

Many of the immature cells were outside the region where hair cells normally grow, so those clearly resulted from the treatment, Raphael said. Despite their odd location, it's possible that at least some of them might be able to function, he said.

http://www.jneurosci.org/


While I should say upfront this is an "artificial” procedure it is however one that exploits an already existing characteristic of viral phages, which in themselves parallel what Cyanobacteria did in the first place when it inserted itself into those first eukaryotes and changed how life evolves. Clearly we have complex interactions of genetic information that at the most primitive is somewhat clear but is perhaps affecting complex organisms in ways we haven't yet effectively included in our phylogenic modeling.


The cyanobacteria have an extensive fossil record. The oldest known fossils, in fact, are cyanobacteria from Archaean rocks of western Australia, dated 3.5 billion years old. This may be somewhat surprising, since the oldest rocks are only a little older: 3.8 billion years old!
Cyanobacteria are among the easiest microfossils to recognize. Morphologies in the group have remained much the same for billions of years, and they may leave chemical fossils behind as well, in the form of breakdown products from pigments. Small fossilized cyanobacteria have been extracted from Precambrian rock, and studied through the use of SEM and TEM (scanning and transmission electron microscopy).
http://www.ucmp.berk...ia/cyanofr.html


http://www.ucmp.berk...reedomains.html
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image
Three Domains of Life
Until comparatively recently, living organisms were divided into two kingdoms: animal and vegetable, or the Animalia and the Plantae. In the 19th century, evidence began to accumulate that these were insufficient to express the diversity of life, and various schemes were proposed with three, four, or more kingdoms. The scheme most often used currently divides all living organisms into five kingdoms: Monera (bacteria), Protista, Fungi, Plantae, and Animalia. This coexisted with a scheme dividing life into two main divisions: the Prokaryotae (bacteria, etc.) and the Eukaryotae (animals, plants, fungi, and protists).
Recent work, however, has shown that what were once called "prokaryotes" are far more diverse than anyone had suspected. The Prokaryotae are now divided into two domains, the Bacteria and the Archaea, as different from each other as either is from the Eukaryota, or eukaryotes. No one of these groups is ancestral to the others, and each shares certain features with the others as well as having unique characteristics of its own.
Within the last two decades, a great deal of additional work has been done to resolve relationships within the Eukaryota. It now appears that most of the biological diversity of eukaryotes lies among the protists, and many scientists feel it is just as inappropriate to lump all protists into a single kingdom as it was to group all prokaryotes. Although many revised systems have been proposed, no single one of them has yet gained a wide acceptance.
A fourth group of biological entities, the viruses, are not organisms in the same sense that eukaryotes, archaeans, and bacteria are. However, they are of considerable biological importance.

I am arguing that the viruses are more than a simple “consequence” of liberated genes they are a mechanism for adaptive mutation that has become environmentally stable and somewhat independently competitive but still overtly functionally parasitic, except in specific instances where the interaction of viral genetic transcription improves the odds of a successful mutation sooner in relation to environmental stress.

Obviously this is a radical theoretical departure from parochial evolutionary genetics but what I am proposing is a dynamic relationship of Selective Mutation through gene sharing that won’t show up as distinct because the original species’ full genome is not merged, only segments and these would appear as mutations not as mergers per se.

#15 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 12:35 PM

Ironically it would be analogous to the way I just copy/pasted selective characteristics of different articles into the previous post to construct a new idea. Only I tag the source information to identify it.

If this is in fact happening with gene segments the type of marker that must be found would have to be a previous mutation within a latter mutation that is the result of such merged DNA. The carryover of the previous mutation would then suddenly appear the fossil record coincident with the larger mutation and would confirm my hypothesis.

Sort of a DNA copyright tag :))

There are some elusive examples of this and I will pursue such evidence. It also may be possible to find such cross speciation markers in the Alu elemental sequences.

#16 ocsrazor

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 02:48 PM

Hi Laz,

I think you have some causality issues with explanations on this topic Laz.

Mitochondria are indicative of a species merger but a species merger was NOT repsonsible for multicellularity. Saying that the incorporation of mitochondria into cells was the decisive inovation in creating multicellular organisms is akin to saying that the invention of the wheel was the decisive inovation in creating automobiles - there is too much distance between them for this to be a meaningful statement - wheels make automobiles "possible" but they are a long pre-established advance.

Multicellular body plans explode in the Cambrian because having multiple cells allows for specialization - some cells can be allowed to specialize and it doesn't negatively affect the performance of the organism - it is an acceptable (low cost) risk. This is also unconnected with mitchondrial incorporation for the same reason stated above.

Coevolution is not really outside the standard model of natural selection, it is one of the driving forces behind it.

Transfer of genetic information by virus or plasmid does not significantly affect multicellular organisms on the species level, as it is extremely difficult for this type of transfer to affect germ cells. Cross-species genetic transfer is likely not a signinifcant factor in the evolution of multicellular organisms.

As far as I have seen in the literature, Alu sequences represent a distinct mutation event in primates, and are not the result of any type of gene transfer.

There are also some causality problems with your (and John's) explanation of the utility of imitation for primate species, I will try and elucidate later.

Best,
Peter

#17 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 03:31 PM

Mitochondria are indicative of a species merger but a species merger was NOT repsonsible for multicellularity. Saying that the incorporation of mitochondria into cells was the decisive inovation in creating multicellular organisms is akin to saying that the invention of the wheel was the decisive inovation in creating automobiles - there is too much distance between them for this to be a meaningful statement - wheels make automobiles "possible" but they are a long pre-established advance.


Actually a more precise application of the same metaphor you chose is the idea that the invention of an "engine" (whether steam, electric, or combustion fueled) makes possible creating automobiles.

Second the merger of two species is a de facto form of multicellularity and the seemingly long period that follows is only logical as this process necessitates a consolidation (integration & refinement) of behavioral aspects while awaiting the environmental mutagenesis (from a variety of causal factors) of cellular specialization and differentiation.

I am going to also address more of what you are discussing but this discussion should perhaps be moved over to the abiogenesis topic where perhaps it is more appropriate. I only wish John would join us.

http://www.imminst.o...st=0

Edited by Lazarus Long, 01 June 2003 - 03:34 PM.


#18 John Schloendorn

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Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:43 AM

Hi Peter and everyone else,
Heh you're welcome, for "vicious editors" are the only productive ones. Though I believe that some defense will help clarify my position.

Thanks for your comments on information theory. This is a topic in which I could use a stronger background.

As for fundamental constants as "source of order", I have not heard of that before. On the contrary, I feel it makes a lot of evolution's beauty that it could do without external sources of order and I designed the article to appreciate that beauty. (e.g. along the lines of dennet, 1996 or dawkins, 1996) But those books look fascinating, thanks for recommending.

Agreed on imitation, I believe that I have given it a more dominant role than it might deserve. Today I would probably back it up by a more general 'cultural evolution' approach à la Miller and language (Basically Laz's "three things").

I think to ask whether aging is programmed or a side effect of something else is an empty question, for it depends mostly on the definition of "programmed", rather than on anything substantial.
We have some property that results in death after a more or less fixed time span in our given environment. (That's for sure, for we do die.) This property might be encoded digitally in some defined data space (such as the color of our blood is solely determined by the electronic properties of the heme group) or a dislocated epiphenomenon (such as the speed we can run comes about by the interaction of many organ systems).
Now we might choose to call properties "programmed" when they meet only the former condition or when they meet either. In the article, I meant them to meet either (though neglecting to make this explicit), because both are equally subject to selection. Evolution does not bother whether humans can understand how a particular property is determined or not.
I was interested in the selection of aging to argue for the feasibility of life extension. This argument is compatible with both definitions of "programming". If aging digitally controlled (e.g. by telomere length), easy enough, we are to change the digital data. If aging is an unintelligible epiphenomenon, we will have to take control of nature's own procedures to arrest it (which should be easier than to design them from the scratch). As you said yourself, such procedures exist in vertebrates. But they might also be gleaned from vegetatively reproducing multicellulars, germ cells, stem cells or microorganisms.

More or less the same is true for the question if evolution "designs". We can choose to call "design" only intelligent design or also include stupid design. (Obviously, I did the latter.)

As for the origins of life, yes, my account is overly simplistic, period ;-) It is meant to initiate the reader to evolutionary thinking, so that they can understand those sections with practical relevance. I tried not to advocate any specific theory.

I would also like to point at another weakness of my article, which has not been discussed yet. This is the derivation of immortalist ethics from evolutionary reasoning about aging, without even hinting at the fascinating controversy behind this issue. I would appreciate comments on this.

Thanks you to everyone for the discussion so far, John.



Dawkins, R (1996) "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design" (W.W. Norton & Co)

Dennett, D. (1996) "Darwin's dangerous idea" (Touchstone Books)

#19 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 05:21 AM

I would also like to point at another weakness of my article, which has not been discussed yet. This is the derivation of immoralists ethics from evolutionary reasoning about aging, without even hinting at the fascinating controversy behind this issue. I would appreciate comments on this.


I would suggest that is not so difficult as it is extended directly from the instinct to survive. It does have some moderating aspects however derivative of parenting and caregiving that involve self sacrifice for the good of offspring and other "dependants" but this is part of the collectivist versus individualist paradigm and also the question of defined self interest and loyalty to gene line (as in the selfish gene).

But we can refer to this later as I would like to say congratulations on your Haldane Award and the party in your name for this paper was GREAT [!]

Too damn bad you weren't there [::)]

Wine was excellent, food delicious, wonderful music and the speeches for yours and our benefit were damned good. I bet you wished you had been to your own award ceremony now. Well we toasted to you and next paper you truly need to materialize or something. [":)]

Really it would have been a great pleaure to have continued this discussion in person and I do hope there is a next time Mr. Haldane Award Winner announced at the Sunday banquet for the WTA Transvision 2003 Conference.

It is fun to be the guy who scoops the thread with the news. It makes me feel like a Cub reporter [B)]

#20 gavrilov

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 04:04 PM

- I do not thing that Kirkwoods disposable soma theory, that you are advancing  is ultimately sound.  (as a small starter: Gavrilov/Gavrilova - Evolutionary Theories of Aging and Longevity


Yes, I agree that the disposable soma "theory" is merely a nice working hypothesis, which allows to generate new interesting testable predictions. However these predictions are not always confirmed, see for example:

Gavrilova, N.S., Gavrilov, L.A. Human longevity and reproduction: An evolutionary perspective. In: Voland, E., Chasiotis, A. & Schiefenhoevel, W. (eds.): Grandmotherhood: The Evolutionary Significance of the Second Half of Female Life. Rutgers University Press. New Brunswick, NJ, USA, 2005, 59-80.

hence it may be indeed an overkill to name this hypothesis a theory.

Hope it helps,

Best wishes,




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