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How to find your own unique neurochemistry?


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#31 Not_Supplied

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:43 AM

I'm not saying you don't have medical issues, but it would be worth exploring the issue of trauma. This doesn't have to come from abuse or serious accidents, there can be other explanations especially if it happened when you were little.

In me, this caused something similar to the hibernating senses thing - a sort of permanent state of dissociation. I also flipped into social anxiety and panics in my 20's.

Check out a book called 'waking the tiger' about trauma, and try some body psychotherapy.

Your post could describe me at 19, and at 29 I feel clear, sharp and energised most of the time. I think this stuff can get better as you get older anyway, so hang in there.

#32 medicineman

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:46 AM

Studies have shown that CRH (corticotrophin releasing hormone) levels in people who have underwent some form of hardship in their younger years are close or even equal to people with Cushings syndrome. Another study took saliva samples from two groups of girls, some who have been sexually abused, and other who lead a normal life, many many years after. The abused group were grown up and leading a life with no real past stigmata, YET their CRH is found to be highly increased.

The body is intimate with the mind. Have you had some hardship in your early life? I don't just mean abuse, just anything hard, death of a loved one, loss of a girlfriend, or abuse??

You do not need nootropics.... Who ever is suggesting nootropics is a bit off their game. You need medical help. Im sorry, but ashwaghanda and theanine, I take them too, but I really don't see what they are really good for. Its all speculative what they do. Ya sure one induces alpha-waves, the other has all this anti-inflammatory and neurogenic properties, as the studies show, but I really do feel some of these studies are lacking, and hence, you need to go get some ritalin, plain and simple.

I know its not right to advise someone to take ritalin, but I am involved in the healthcare profession, and we weigh the risks vs the benefits,,, and quite honestly, ritalin is not neurotoxic, ritalin is VERY effective in conditions ranging from fatigue to distractibility, ritalin gives you energy, and gives you satisfaction in doing what you need or want to do. Only downside, you will be on it for life... But then again, you could be the way you are for life if thats what you prefer.

As of your GABA problem, Eric Braverman is a fuckin quack. Dont take that test seriously. That guy advocates nutritional supplements for hypertensives who probably wouldnt last a week without their Ace-Inhibitors or Beta-blockers. GABA deficiency does not cause asthenia like you describe. You would instead be anxious, sweaty, on your toes, etc. everything thats not relaxed or calm. Not sleepy, and zombified.

Like others who promote shit like aromapathy and alternative therapy, Dr. Braverman is no better. I am very tolerant to people, but I despise people who try to make money off peoples ailments. Here is something I picked up off a quackwatch subsite:

The home site of Dr. Braverman is www.pathmed.com[1]. The site is claims to help individuals achieve active, productive lifestyles. The organization follows their PATH philosophy of care which centers on the ideal of “the brain controls the body”; that almost all diseases and aging manifestations are the results of “mind-body interactions”.



They claim that they can help patients by medical consultations that include extensive testing. And of course, they have a full line of products available for sale, most of which are dietary supplements and books.



Dr. Braverman is a medical doctor from NYU medical school, and he did his residency in internal medicine in Greenwich , CT. He is the recipient of the AMA Physician's recognition award, which is not that big of a deal. All physicians get that award for completing their continuing education hours. His biography also claims that has conducted research with renowned scientists, however he has neither authored, nor co-authored ANY scientific research in peer reviewed journals.



Criticisms of Dr. Braverman and the PATH medical organization:



1. Medical consultations are made up of several expensive, unnecessary tests. Their main test, a “BEAM EEG” is basically nothing more than a regular electroencephalograph. The main indications for EEG are for diagnosis of epilepsy or assisting in diagnosis for encephalitis [2]. It is also useful for aiding in brain injury and coma assessment.



Outside of these usages, the EEG has no indications.



It is basically a bogus, non-invasive test for the intents of the PATH group, and probably looks really complicated to the patient (creating an illusion of legitimacy). And they can charge $1000 for one.



To the group's credit, it does use the P300 evoked electroencephalographic potential to help aid in their evaluation [3]. If this method is used properly, it can aid in identifying hyperactive children. But my question is this: why would you use an overly expensive / still experimental test to determine what you could ascertain by simply listening to the patient's parents and teachers? And what will they do when they have made their evaluation?



Of course they will…



2. Recommend a number of expensive dietary supplements, of which they sell in their own online store. Dietary supplements and vitamins as treatment for behavior problems is complete quackery in the purest form [4, 5]. They do all these tests, and then they recommend that you take their line of vitamins and supplements, which puts more money in their pockets. By the way, no studies have ever confirmed that dietary modification or vitamin supplementation improves behavioral conditions such as anxiety or ADHD.



3. Chelation therapy is based on the belief that removing metals from the body will result in the cure of a wide variety of diseases. The chelation movement began shortly after it was found that EDTA could remove lead from the body (which is still a very effective way to treat children with lead poisoning and can be lifesaving in children with very high levels of lead in their system. Lead poisoning usually occurs when toddlers eat paint chips from the walls or on the ground in houses built before 1978 with lead-based paints). Diseases that they state they can treat include coronary artery disease, arthritis, Parkinson's disease, and Alzheimer's disease. They also claim (as does Dr. Braverman) that they can reverse the aging process by using chelation therapy and improve sexual impotence.



These claims have no scientific merit, and studies have been performed that negate its efficacy (beyond the placebo effect). There are also real concerns about safety. Zinc, which is vital for immune function, gets carried out with the rest of these phantom heavy metals. This can lead to some real problems such as impaired immune function, and precancerous cell mutations [6].



4. No scientific basis. This website does not list even one scientific, peer-reviewed study to support any of its products and services. They do offer plenty of personal testimonies from “satisfied” customers. This is one of the fundamental problems with “alternative” medicine: they can make almost any claim that they want, but they do not provide scientific evidence to support their claim.



What these alternative practitioners will find are that some of their clients who use their products will feel better! But the thing that the public doesn't generally recognize is that they would have eventually felt better even without their product. That is the nature of human ailments…most of the time they get better on their very own. Even people with chronic illnesses will have good days. And if the alternative medicine practitioner can convince their client that is was their product that caused the improvement, the client will be totally won over. They will allow the alternative practitioner to publish their success story on their literature, and they will likely recruit that individual to go out and recruit others.



It is the most wicked form of deception out there. They take advantage of people with their various ailments. They take their money and give them a remedy that has no therapeutic benefit, and then they take credit for success that had nothing to do with their treatment. And if the client does not improve? They will blame it on the client, “If you only would have come to us sooner…”, or on conventional medicine, “The prior treatments you received interfered with our product.”



Summary of Dr. Braverman and Path medical:



Dr. Braverman is a quack practitioner that uses expensive, unproven, non scientifically-based and unnecessary testing and treatments. He promotes therapies that may be harmful (chelation therapy) and of no scientific value, and he offers no evidence to support any of his claims. He is undoubtedly making millions.




Bottom line, you need a REAL DOCTOR, with REAL EXPERIENCE in your problem. Most general practicioners are fekin retarded. So the problem is finding the good doctor, your best bet is private psychiatrist.




And whoever is on chelation therapy, do yourself a favor, and get off them. And if you dont want to get off them, dont advise other people to take them.....

Edited by medicineman, 23 November 2008 - 11:55 AM.


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#33 aaron_e

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:10 PM

Hi guys,

I'm a 19 year-old male and since about the age of 14, I've battled with extreme mental fatigue and brain-fog.

It has recently expanded into depression and anxiety... introspection, over analysis, paranoia, social isolation, etc. All the stuff that eventually makes you crazy.

So anyway, here's the thing: For the past few years I've tried to keep several careful logs of things like sleep patterns, food intake, effects of various drugs, nootropics, etc. to figure out what's fucking me up so bad.

Basically, what I "feel" is extreme mental fatigue and sleepiness. Not quite narcolepsy, like I'm about to fall asleep, but just like all my senses are "hibernating". My eyesight, although excellent, tires me. I get tired looking at things. I get tired listening to things, I get tired of talking (I hate talking!). I get tired interacting with other people. I do not enjoy social interactions even if they are in my favor (ei: if all the people like me and enjoy my presence)

I've frequented a bunch of different forums, went to a whole truckload of doctors, studied various conditions, etc. but I still cannot figure out what in god's name is wrong with me. It's not a physical fatigue like what hypo sufferers report. I'm still able to lift weights and exercise and run as well as the next man. I guess the closest thing I can associate my symptoms with is inattentive ADD. Although most people with ADD are "motivated" towards something else and more interesting and still find SOME kind of stimulation in whatever distracts them, for me, what happens is I just do not enjoy exerting any kind of mental strain. I find doing most activities (anything other than sleeping or eating, really) "painful" in the sense that 90% of the experiences I've had doing them resulted in me being too tired to do anything productive and all I really want to do is get out of the situation ASAP and take a nap.

At one point I thought I hit the nail on the head when I discovered adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism. I did a salival cortisol test and it revealed that I had somewhat low cortisol as well as being hypothyroid. Those results were inconclusive and supplemental adrenal glands and even hydrocortisone didn't help at all. Tried natural (armour) thyroid and that didn't do jack either. The stoptheadrenalmadness kept touting that everyone that has symptoms of fatigue is hypo but that didn't seem to be my case.

So I went to a highly skilled endo that did a full hormonal panel and it revealed that everything form test to thyroid to cortisol was well within range, so at this point I can't help but completely dismiss hormones as being my problem.

So recently, I dwelled into the world of neuroscience. All that has to do with the way your brain functions and the way various drugs alter your brain function. I've tried several drugs and supplements over the years in hopes of them some how finding the missing lock and "opening the closed door" and fixing all my symptoms. Here is what I've tried over the years that had little to no effect in fixing the fatigued aspect:

-Deprenyl
-Modafinil
-Phenibut
-Caffeine
-Ephedrine
-L-Tyrosine
-All vitamins and minerals
-Fish oil
-diphenhydramine
-L-Theanine
-Green tea
-Ashwaganda
-Neurogenex (nootropic blend)
-5HTP
-Sam-E
-Melatonin

Caffeine and ephedrine temporally "band-aided" the tiredness but never removed that "foggy" feeling. 5-HTP, sam-e and melatonin have absolutely ZERO effect on me (moodwise or any other aspect) in any dosage.

The biggest way in which all of this is fucking me up so bad is that I don't know if I'm simply not "doing" the right things or trying hard enough OR if everyone else is just like me and has found a way around it, or their upbringing has enabled them to deal with it.

I keep wondering why it's so hard for ME. Why it's so hard for me to be productive and to find motivation. Why I always feel like sleeping and taking a nap instead of doing something I know would benefit me. I know some people are simply lazy and make the conscious choice to do the productive task anyway, but they'd enjoy themselves anyway if they didn't do it. For me, I still always feel that lingering feeling of being drained and feeling like a zombie.

I remember when I was a kid I was always so energetic and creative and did so much cool shit then as soon as I hit puberty it all gradually started slowing down and I became this sort of slow-poke. It's not really a question of motivation, as I've tried SO HARD to break out of this rut and get things rolling but as much time and effort I keep investing, it never, ever, fucking works.

So I recently went to a doc describing all my symptoms and he referred me to a sleep clinic. Perhaps I have sleep apnea or some kind of disturbed sleep patterns? I will finally find out when I get that done. I however, do not snore so I don't know.

Here's the thing about my sleep though:
1) I feel like complete and utter shit if I sleep more than 7 hours. If I oversleep I wake up extremely tired, dizzy, bloated and depressed.
2) I feel my "best" with 4-6 hours of sleep.
3) I often wake up several times during the night and have trouble falling back asleep.
4) 5-10 minute naps have a better effect on me than a full-night's sleep.

I often feel sleep doesn't benefit me in any way. I think I can only recall a handful of times when I actually woke up feeling "refreshed". I enjoy the act of sleeping though, but as soon as I get up, the slavery begins.

In fact, I feel much, much better with little-to-no sleep even though several side effects such as physical body tiredness and reduced cognitive abilities surface. What happens is my "fog" or "fatigue" is paradoxally alleviated. It's like as if I benefit from a certain stage of sleep but another one messes me up completely.

There have been several times in my life where I have felt absolutely amazing though, but I can only pick out half a dozen of those times and they happened completely at random with no external stimuli affecting it. I just want to feel normal.

Another thing I noticed as that carbs, in any amount make me feel tired and sluggish IMMEDIATELY. I cannot fucking tolerate them at all. Not even low-GI or fruit. (other than around physical activity like when working out) I'm also very allergy prone and easily start getting water retention in the face from things like milk.

So the reason I made this post is because I have read of certain people in a very similar situation such as mine that have found out certain things about their neurochemistry, lack of dopamine during certain times, too much seratonin during others, etc.

After excluding all these factors, I don't know what i'm left with. I don't know where to search for the answers anymore. Am I to accept a life of mediocrity? Much of this can be overrun by willpower but that wouldn't be a life worth living as the actual process for me is so agonizing.

I know most of this may also sound like depression, and although I am slightly depressed, there have been times in my life (2-3 years ago) when I was not at all depressed and had a lot of things going for me, but even then I was just as tired, sluggish and unproductive as now, it's just that the way my lifestyle was shaped at the time it didn't really matter. I don't know about you guys, but just sleeping all day and going out every once in a while doesn't really satisfy me at all. Kind of like a person doesn't really need any of his limbs if all he does is watch TV, you know?

I know my post was a bit "all over the place" but I'm hoping some people can relate. If you guys need any more information I'd obviously be happy to answer. I'll try to organise it a bit more when I get the time.


you might have some heavy metals poisoning, maybe try doing bentonite clay baths. they seem to be working well for my mercury detox.

#34 neogenic

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:48 PM

What could you say about my braverman results? I'm really interested. How do I go about fixing the GABA issue?


See my post above. I have found the following helpful Ashwagandha, GABA powder, theanine, bacopa and pyroglutamate.

This is only what has been working for me and as I said there are many variables so this is only advice.

For my GABA issues I take:

Ashwagandha(Standardized to min. 4.5% Total Withanolides) 200 mg in the Morning and 1 gram at night
GABA 100 mg in the Morning
Theanine 200 mg in the Morning and 200 mg in the Afternoon
Bacopa 500 mg at night
Pyroglutamate 2-3 grams in the Morning and 2-3 grams in the Afternoon


if you want to keep it simple
Theanine 200 mg and LOW dose Ashwagandha (open the capsule and take half the powder if you feel sleepy with a whole capsule) in the day time

and higher dose Ashwagandha at night

Again you will have to find what works best with you.

Edward or others, are there any products that have these ingredients in them already formulated?

#35 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 04:19 PM

As of your GABA problem, Eric Braverman is a fuckin quack. Dont take that test seriously.


+1

Maybe edward will mention what actually caused / cured his brain fog (it wasn't a "neurotransmitter imbalance").

#36 neogenic

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:43 AM

What could you say about my braverman results? I'm really interested. How do I go about fixing the GABA issue?


See my post above. I have found the following helpful Ashwagandha, GABA powder, theanine, bacopa and pyroglutamate.

This is only what has been working for me and as I said there are many variables so this is only advice.

For my GABA issues I take:

Ashwagandha(Standardized to min. 4.5% Total Withanolides) 200 mg in the Morning and 1 gram at night
GABA 100 mg in the Morning
Theanine 200 mg in the Morning and 200 mg in the Afternoon
Bacopa 500 mg at night
Pyroglutamate 2-3 grams in the Morning and 2-3 grams in the Afternoon


if you want to keep it simple
Theanine 200 mg and LOW dose Ashwagandha (open the capsule and take half the powder if you feel sleepy with a whole capsule) in the day time

and higher dose Ashwagandha at night

Again you will have to find what works best with you.

Edward or others, are there any products that have these ingredients in them already formulated?

http://www.iherb.com...c...d=1274&at=0
http://www.iherb.com...c...d=1320&at=0
http://www.iherb.com...c...492292&at=0
http://www.iherb.com...c...pid=80&at=0

Any thoughts on these?

#37 bgwithadd

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:13 AM

You have too much sleep disturbance for it to be all ADD, though I share many common symptoms. I would look at bipolar as your first stop and then go from there. It's often the case you will have many things, as well. But, generally bipolar has the sleep cycles you mentioned and becomes extremely difficult to rouse if they sleep too much. It also tends to come on around puberty which is a big sign. If you were that depressed you'd know it - there's more than just depression going on, thouh it could be depression + ADD. However, I'd try to get some lithium orotate first and ONLY TAKE THE RECOMMENDED DOSE, as a test to see what happens. If you are bipolar you'll notice a different and if not, then nothing.

#38 edward

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 06:50 PM

As of your GABA problem, Eric Braverman is a fuckin quack. Dont take that test seriously.


+1

Maybe edward will mention what actually caused / cured his brain fog (it wasn't a "neurotransmitter imbalance").


A few things...

First off, my theories on fatigue, energy and "not feeling quite right all the time" issues.

I have come to believe that there is a strong immune component to these issues (and secondary issues related to the immune system like elevated cytokines, tnf alpha etc.)

and in some cases there are long standing infections that are at the root of the issues

In others things like allergies, low level food insensitivity not on the level of full blown allergy (prime culprits are: grains, dairy and peanuts) (again an immune component of sorts)

In others over consumption of carbohydrates leads to a blood glucose rollercoaster that can cause bouts of fatigue/low energy and exacerbate everything (also putting stress on your immune system along with everything else)

Finally there may be some neurotransmitter imbalances but these I think are less common then the above


Abbreviated summary of my own case: I have been on antidepressants FOREVER and they never really took care of the fatigue, energy and oddly anxiety issues that I would feel (not all the time, just some times) even with balancing a SSRI with a dopamine/norepinephrine agent (which is essential for most). I tried to deal with these issues with supplements and had some success, interestingly supplements that had effects on the immune system either primary or secondary had the best results. Recently after talking to Funk and his experience with Lyme I looked back at my own "history" and it fit perfectly. As kid and teenager I did a lot of outdoor activities and I can remember days when I would pull off at least 20 ticks and thinking nothing of it. I experimentally began a high dose regimine of various tetracyclines (standard lyme tx) I had the expected "herxheimer" reaction. I went to my doctor and was tested ELISA and Western Blot. Results showed I did in fact have a long standing Lyme infection. He wanted to treat me with the standard Doxycycline tx which I had already done and still had some energy issues (ie still some residual infection). I did research into Lyme protocols, devised my own and ordered a high dose multi antibiotic regimine. I took this regimine for about two months during this time I stopped most potentially immune system reducing supplments (accept for resveratrol which I simply lowered the dosage to 500mg). Any ways I had the typical reactions of someone killing off a bacterial infection followed by the last two weeks of being symptom free. I am still taking minocycline "just in case" but will probably stop that at some point and take low dose naltrexone for permenant immune system vigilance. I have a sensitivity to carbohydrates as well from a blood sugar standpoint not weight (I have always been thin) a low carb diet dramatically took care of energy fluxuations (still had brain fog though at times until after the antibiotic treatment). I also don't respond well to grains either from a carb standpoint or some sort of immune standpoint (even low carb products like low carb tortillas perfectly within my carb alotment for the day make me feel odd). Dairy and peanuts I personally dont have a problem with but I think others might.

Some notes: I have not taken antidepressant in months (amazing!), though I might consider them again but from a cognitive enhancement, brain plasticity standpoint, I don't seem to need much in the way of extra gaba supplements to take care of the anxiety/brain poop out. I don't need stimulants anymore though again I might consider some milder ones from the cognitive enhancement/brain plasticity standpoint.

Conclusion:

See your doctor, get routine blood tests, if your WBCs are either too high (usually acute infection) or too low (chronic infection). Look back at your history and see what fits and get the appropriate tests. If there are no underlying infections then look to diet issues. Try elimating carbs and typically offensive foods.

If the above prove unproductive then you may have neurotransmitter issues.

edit: A few notes. Previously I dismissed the "chronic infection community" as mostly a bunch of hypochondriacs. I now feel that there are a lot of medical problems that have undiscovered infectious roots but that there are still a lot of hypochondriacs out there giving the area a bad name. I have not talked about these issues on Imminst for fear of bringing some of the "hypochondriac" crazyness I have seen to this board.

With regards to Braverman, I don't think he is a quack but I do feel he has oversimplified things somewhat. The value of his approach is showing that everyone is different and that from a neurotransmitter standpoint boosting one system in some people may provide cognitive enhancement but in other may provide severe cognitive impairment so some approach to find out where you could use a little boost and what you shouldn't mess with makes sense.

Edited by edward, 08 December 2008 - 07:30 PM.


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#39 edward

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:17 PM

RE: Neogenic

Personally I am not big on "already formulated products" as every brain is different and you get ripped off by the formulator. I now take mostly bulk or semi-bulk powders and very few capsules and tablets at all and the only "mixed product" I now take is my multi. In order to find out what will work for you you will need to try things individually, think the scientific method, only maniuplate one variable at a time. Granted this approach is hard using a human as your lab but as close as you can come to manipulating one variable at a time the better.




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