16 replies to this topic

[madmanmarz]

i was wondering what 'yall thought about my current supps and hoping you might have some suggestions as to how to take them together and if there's anything else in general you might recommend. so far, this is the best i could come up with for my weird schedule.

i work late at night, and i can work anwhere from 8-13 hours starting around 5 or 6. i only have chances to eat square meals around 5pm, 11pm, and 6am.

4pm - 1 scoop of whey
430 - 1 r-ala, 1 multi, 1 omega 3, 1 chondrotin, 1 tribulus, 1 resveratrol, and 1 tablespoon of evoo.
530 - eat.
900 - 1 scoop whey.
1130 - eat.
1230am - 1/2 scoop whey.
300-400 - snack
400-500- 1/2 - 1 scoop whey.
600 - 5-10g creatine, 1 r-ala, 40g dextrose, 1 multi, 1 colostrum.
620 - workout.
800 - 5-10g creatine, 1 r-ala, 30g dextrose, tablespoon of evoo, 1 resveratrol, 1 multi,
1 tribulus, 1 omega3, 1 chondrotin, 3-zma, 1 colostrum.
830 - 1 scoop whey, 6 6-oxo, 1 tribulus, 1 saw palmetto.
845 - snack (or meal), and sleep

total;
eas 100% whey- 75-100 grams (spread out).
ast creatine monohydrate micronized- 10-20 grams (2x5g or 2x10g).
ast r-ala- 3x pills = 600mg.
green source multivitamin - 3x pills = <a href="http://www.puritan.c...ile.asp?PID=618' target='_blank">link</a>.
kal omega 3 - 2x pills = 2g.
kal colostrum - 2x pills = 500mg.
now resveratrol - 2x pills = 200 mg red wine extract, 100mg t-resveratrol, 200mg green tea extract, 100mg grape seed extract.
now tribulus - 2x pills = 2g.
now saw palmetto extract - 1x pill = 320mg.
now dextrose - 70g.
doctor's best glucosamine, chondroitin, msm 2x pills = 750mg glucosamine, 600mg chondroitin, 500mg methylsulfonylmethane.
universal nutrition zma - 3x pills = 450mg magneisium, 30mg zinc, 10.5mg b6.
ergopharm 6-oxo - 6x pills = 600mg.
extra virgin olive oil - 2 tablespoons.

i am stacking the 6-oxo and tribulus for 6-8 weeks w/ 20g creatine, 3x r-ala, and more protein.
i am then going down to 5g creatine, 2x r-ala, and a little less protein for cutting (no 6-oxo/trib)
i heard that there are possible issues with taking creatine and protein at the same time so i am going to space
them out 30 mins apart. i have heard resveratrol might be best with evoo (extra virgin olive oil) or alcohol (glass of wine), i am going to try both.

possible future supps;
ribose - makes atp, 5-carbon sugar, good with creatine - energy
l-arginine - increases pump and nitrogen levels, good for cardiovascular, libido, weakens
immune system to virus'.

Edited by madmanmarz, 26 April 2007 - 10:38 AM.

[lucid]

You are wasting creatine there chief. Once your body becomes saturated with creatine, it won't use more than 5 g per day. Thats all i noticed.

[madmanmarz]

wow, quick response. cool, i haven't been taking more than 5 yet.

[Shepard]

i heard that there are possible issues with taking creatine and protein at the same time so i am going to space

Sorry, I haven't looked over it much, but this comment caught my eye. Care to explain this one in more depth?

[madmanmarz]

i guess when it comes to being absorbed, they will compete. i read something about it in this forum but i haven't been able to find many more references. i haven't seen a study on this. i don't know what the real standing is, but this site blah basically says that the jury's still up on that one.

here's something
something

Edited by madmanmarz, 24 April 2007 - 04:00 PM.

[neogenic]

Since I post on bb.com...I will post my thoughts I put over there, meant towards a younger person/bodybuilder, not necessarily life-extensionist (though for me the two meet).

Staples:Hydrolyzed protein (immediate pre and post), WPI (throughout the day), Micellar Casein (nighttime), creatine (kre-alkalyn is the lowest dose necessary and most buffered form...no creatinine), beta-alanine (3.2g/day), BCAA's (during workout...Xtend or ICE liquid), Citrulline Malate, Leucine, Fast/slow carbs (used to match fast/slow proteins), Excellent quality multivitamin, hydration can not be overstated, R-ALA, B-vitamins dosed periodically throughout the day, a clean diet with quality protein, quality fat sources and quality carbs...this means thinking and planning.

Recovery: serrapeptidase, cissus, phosphatidyl serine, fish oil (PCO/PCB free and molecularly distilled), Additional Vitamin C with flavinoids, Additional, Vitamin E (natural mixed tocopherol), Astaxanthin, Trans-resveratrol, and NAC

Nootropic: Piracetam, Aniracetam, methylcobalamin, sulbutiamine, vinpocetine, picamilon, Alpha-GPC, Provigil (prescription), PEA, ALCAR, PLCAR

Testosterone/hormonal support: ZMA, 100:1 LJ long jack, 6-oxo, DS' activate, High protodioscin Trib. (80% is nice), DHEA (depending on age)

Fatloss: EGCG/Green Tea, Caffeine, CLA (tonalin - typically way underdosed - 7+g/day needed), Sesamin, Raspberry Ketones, Oolong Tea, Yohimbine (alpha), Synephrine/Ephedrine alkaloids (depending on legality and tolerance), Forskolin

This is a simple list...in a way of what works. Nothing hype-filled. Nothing illegal or banned...except I am unsure aas far aas some of the nootropic list goes...that would need to be researched, but all of it should be ok. A perscription for provigil, would be very advantageous to an athlete for focus and sustained energy...and again should be ok with the prescription.

That's the list. No order. The categories go in that order, essentially depending on goals. I could do another category on insulin sensitivity too...important to an athlete and from the aspect of AGE inhibition for longevity purposes. Metformin would be advantageous for this too.

[health_nutty]

That's a good list neogenic. Quite an extensive list, but a good one.

My 2 cents:
1) ALCAR
2) Pomegranate extract (P40p)
3) Replace dextrose with grape juice for pre/post wo (mostly dextrose and has lots of good antioxidants too)
4) Beta alanine (carnosine precursor)

Limit creatine to 5g as stated above. Whey is very fast digesting. Limit the whey protein to pre and post workout. It's better to get your protein from 'real' food (less processed that is) at other times.

ribose is a waste of money.
I would pick citrulline malate over arginine.

Edited by health_nutty, 24 April 2007 - 08:47 PM.

[neogenic]

Limit creatine to 5g as stated above.  Whey is very fast digesting.  Limit the whey proteto pre and post workout.  It's better to get your protein from 'real' food (less processed that is) at other times. 

ribose is a waste of money.
I would pick citrulline malate over arginine.

ribose is waste (despite what LEF says), except in mega-doses and then its more of an indirect effect for benefit over the direct anyway.

I agree on the creatine, with Kre-alkalyn it takes 2caps (1.5g a day and again no creatinine conversion).

Citrulline Malate over arginine...again, this is for sure. Its a double whammy too, getting the malic acid/malate ergogenic benefits, plus the citrulline (which is in the arginine pathway)...a much, much better choice.

Creatine/Beta-alanine/Citrulline Malate should be staples for seeking strength gains/performance to any lifter. No hype. Real studies.

[health_nutty]

Creatine/Beta-alanine/Citrulline Malate should be staples for seeking strength gains/performance to any lifter.  No hype.  Real studies.

Of the three creatine is very well studied, beta-alanine has a decent amount of studies, and citrulline malate has only one poorly designed human study (that I know of). Citrulline malate is also the most expensive of the three, but it has good user feedback.

[Athanasios]

You are wasting creatine there chief. Once your body becomes saturated with creatine, it won't use more than 5 g per day. Thats all i noticed.

Really, I thought loading was 5g, then 2g a day to keep tissues saturated.

[health_nutty]

You are wasting creatine there chief. Once your body becomes saturated with creatine, it won't use more than 5 g per day. Thats all i noticed.

Really, I thought loading was 5g, then 2g a day to keep tissues saturated.

I remember it being 20g a day loading and 5g a day maintance. I'll have to look it up to know for sure tho.

[Brainbox]

Recovery: serrapeptidase, cissus, phosphatidyl serine, fish oil (PCO/PCB free and molecularly distilled), Additional Vitamin C with flavinoids, Additional, Vitamin E (natural mixed tocopherol), Astaxanthin, Trans-resveratrol, and NAC

Ascorbic acid supplementation does not attenuate post-exercise muscle soreness following muscle-damaging exercise but may delay the recovery process.Close GL, Ashton T, Cable T, Doran D, Holloway C, McArdle F, MacLaren DP.
Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, UK. gclose@liv.ac.uk

Exercise involving lengthening muscle actions, such as downhill running, results in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), which may be attributable to reactive oxygen species (ROS). Although exercise causes oxidative stress, any link between ROS and DOMS remains speculative. There is emerging evidence to suggest that ROS play an important physiological role, assisting in the recovery process and protecting the cell from future damage; however, this has not been fully established. Despite this uncertainty as to the precise role of ROS, attempts to prevent post-exercise ROS production through antioxidant intervention are still common. The study investigated the effects of ascorbic acid supplementation on ROS production and DOMS following downhill running. Subjects were assigned to two groups. The ascorbic acid group (group AA) received 1 g ascorbic acid 2 h pre-, and for 14 d post-downhill running, whilst the placebo group (Pl group) received a placebo. Blood samples were drawn pre-supplement, pre- and post-exercise, and then 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 14 d post-exercise for analysis of ascorbate, malonaldehyde and total glutathione. DOMS was assessed using a visual analogue scale and pressure algometry. Muscle function was assessed using isokinetic dynamometry. Plasma ascorbate was elevated throughout in group AA compared with the Pl group. Downhill running resulted in DOMS in both groups. Muscle function was impaired post-exercise in both groups, although a delayed recovery was noted in group AA. Malonaldehyde increased 4 d post-exercise in the Pl group only. Ascorbic acid supplementation attenuates ROS production following downhill running, without affecting DOMS. Furthermore, ascorbic acid supplementation may inhibit the recovery of muscle function.

PMID: 16611389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

What do you think about this study?

[health_nutty]

Ascorbic acid supplementation does not attenuate post-exercise muscle soreness following muscle-damaging exercise but may delay the recovery process.Close GL, Ashton T, Cable T, Doran D, Holloway C, McArdle F, MacLaren DP.
Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, UK. gclose@liv.ac.uk

interesting.

[madmanmarz]

thanks for all the suggestions. i'll look into the citrulline malate.

so when do you recommend taking the creatine once you're saturated?
i'm still worried whether it's okay to take creatine with protein?
i also work out at the end of the night (morning, after work), and it says not to take zma with calcium, how long should i wait after taking protein to take my zma? and for pre-workout protein, how long before working out?
it's also very difficult for me to get my protein through food, would you reccomend meal replacement/protein bars instead of whey?

any help would be very much appreciated.

[neogenic]

Recovery: serrapeptidase, cissus, phosphatidyl serine, fish oil (PCO/PCB free and molecularly distilled), Additional Vitamin C with flavinoids, Additional, Vitamin E (natural mixed tocopherol), Astaxanthin, Trans-resveratrol, and NAC

Ascorbic acid supplementation does not attenuate post-exercise muscle soreness following muscle-damaging exercise but may delay the recovery process.Close GL, Ashton T, Cable T, Doran D, Holloway C, McArdle F, MacLaren DP.
Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, UK. gclose@liv.ac.uk

Exercise involving lengthening muscle actions, such as downhill running, results in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), which may be attributable to reactive oxygen species (ROS). Although exercise causes oxidative stress, any link between ROS and DOMS remains speculative. There is emerging evidence to suggest that ROS play an important physiological role, assisting in the recovery process and protecting the cell from future damage; however, this has not been fully established. Despite this uncertainty as to the precise role of ROS, attempts to prevent post-exercise ROS production through antioxidant intervention are still common. The study investigated the effects of ascorbic acid supplementation on ROS production and DOMS following downhill running. Subjects were assigned to two groups. The ascorbic acid group (group AA) received 1 g ascorbic acid 2 h pre-, and for 14 d post-downhill running, whilst the placebo group (Pl group) received a placebo. Blood samples were drawn pre-supplement, pre- and post-exercise, and then 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 14 d post-exercise for analysis of ascorbate, malonaldehyde and total glutathione. DOMS was assessed using a visual analogue scale and pressure algometry. Muscle function was assessed using isokinetic dynamometry. Plasma ascorbate was elevated throughout in group AA compared with the Pl group. Downhill running resulted in DOMS in both groups. Muscle function was impaired post-exercise in both groups, although a delayed recovery was noted in group AA. Malonaldehyde increased 4 d post-exercise in the Pl group only. Ascorbic acid supplementation attenuates ROS production following downhill running, without affecting DOMS. Furthermore, ascorbic acid supplementation may inhibit the recovery of muscle function.

PMID: 16611389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

What do you think about this study?

I'd use it post workout for the ROS reason, but also studies have show blunted cortisol with administration orally at 1-2g. I prefer to use a higher quality supp. than ascorbic acid which is metabolized so quickly and doesn't have supportive nutrients. Obviously Ester-C lasts longer and a supplement like NOW's TRU-C: contains an extract of the Amla Berry (Phyllanthus emblica), one of the most frequently used Ayurvedic herbs. Amla is an exceptionally rich source of Vitamin C, Bioflavonoids, and Tannins. Recent scientific studies have shown that the tannins and flavonoids unique to Amla can help to support and modulate immune function. Amla may also provide protection for vascular structures against oxidative stress. In addition, Tru-C BioComplex contains Rutin, Rose Hips, and Grape Seed Extract as synergists. NOW® Tru-C BioComplex contains only non-GMO, fruit derived Vitamin C. This 100% vegetarian, non-synthetic source of Vitamin C is citrus- and corn-free.

The timing, the type, the dose, the style of training, baseline supplementation, allowance for adaptation to compound/nutrient, bodyweight, intensity of the workout/VO2max...etc, etc. One study in this area is meaningless to me when so many show positive benefits. I believe 1g is too much at one time and doses need to be lower and divided, but using different forms may be much more advantageous.

[neogenic]

thanks for all the suggestions. i'll look into the citrulline malate.

1.so when do you recommend taking the creatine once you're saturated?

2. i'm still worried  whether it's okay to take creatine with protein?
3. i also work out at the end of the night (morning, after work), and it says not to take zma with calcium, how long should i wait after taking protein to take my zma? and for pre-workout protein, how long before working out?
4. it's also very difficult for me to get my protein through food, would you reccomend meal replacement/protein bars instead of whey?

any help would be very much appreciated.

1. 1.5g of Krealkalyn preworkout and 750mg post (this is for improved protein synthesis and some other functions according to studies). After 28 days at a maintenance dose you'll be saturated. With Beta-Alanine, carnosine stores will be maxed after 14d at 3.2g/d.

2. This is irrelevant. I have no idea why this would be an issue in your mind as far as safety. As far as absorption...ehh...it could make a difference I suppose, but if you stick to your plan its about 28 days until your saturated and the point is more moot. You should use a WPI of hydrolyzed casein or whey (WPH) preworkout anyway. No concentrate, soy, casein (non-hydrolyzed), etc.

3. Take ZMA before bed, take it with your protein, preferably Micellar casein and some steel cut oats (if doing carbs). A cheap out here is cottage cheese. It won't make a difference as far taking it with protein, unless its loaded up with garbage multivitamin crap...avoid those. I prefer zinc, copper 10:1 - 15:1...solarray makes one. Magnesium is of tremendous benefit to the athlete, but not necessary here unless you like overpaying to SNAC patents or have trouble getting to sleep. Magnesium Orotate is a far superior form any way, use around your workout.

4. The protein bars are awful...saturated fats, glycerine, sugar alcohols (truckloads), soy isolate, sugar, etc. etc. Matter of fact I'd say they are more unhealthy than a typical candy bar. Avoid these. Very few I've found that are decent. VPX zero impact bars have a nice profile and are more an MRP than a snack. Eggs are quick and easy. Hardboil some eggs. Nuts like Almonds and Walnuts are amazing for protein, healthy fats and ramping up your metabolism. Ostrim jerky is really good. They use KCl over NaCl and its very lean protein (pepper flavor is great). This is a thread I did on bb.com... http://forum.bodybui...ad.php?t=884020

[madmanmarz]

wow, great info. yeah as far as the protein, i was just worried about absorbtion. come to think of it, i was taking pre and post whey/creatine a few years ago and i saw good gains. i guess i'll stick to tuna, nuts, and beef jerky for snack protein then. i'm in a situation where i have no kitchen, so i'm stuck getting my protein from ready to eat sources. i could definetly use the magnesium for sleep.

i think i'll try the beta-alanine and citrulline malate. i could definitely use anything that will help endurance/cardio.